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ZZZzzz…] 06:02 -!- jtimon [~quassel@159.pool85-59-61.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:08 -!- belcher [~belcher-s@bcdc7e04.skybroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:08 -!- belcher [~belcher-s@bcdc7e04.skybroadband.com] has quit [Changing host] 06:08 -!- belcher [~belcher-s@unaffiliated/belcher] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:22 -!- Burrito [~Burrito@unaffiliated/burrito] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:22 -!- Burrito [~Burrito@unaffiliated/burrito] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:22 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:23 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:27 -!- soundx [~soundx@gateway/tor-sasl/soundx] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:27 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:27 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:45 -!- coiner [~linker@113.161.87.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:58 -!- adam3us [~Adium@c31-67.i07-8.onvol.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:07 < Adlai> is it OK to think of digital signatures as a trivial ZKP? I prove that I know the secret referred to by this pubkey, without revealing anything about the secret itself? 07:09 < fluffypony> Adlai: I think so - in the sense that you have "zero knowledge" of the private key? 07:10 < Adlai> the prover has knowledge, but transfers none of it to the verifier (in the case of bitcoin, anybody verifying the blockchain) 07:11 < fluffypony> yes makes sense, although I'm unsure if there is a formal definition of the term 07:17 < Adlai> ZKP is a newer concept than public key crypto, so I imagine the conventional formal definitions don't explain an older concept in terms of a newer one... this is my mental exercise to wrap my head around ZKP 07:17 -!- zooko [~user@68.233.149.129] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:20 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:22 < sipa> Adlai: i think a signature is a specific form of zkp yes 07:22 < sipa> a very non-general one 07:22 < sipa> not sure about the formal definition, though 07:24 -!- coiner [~linker@1.54.73.86] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:30 -!- siraj [~siraj@adsl-68-93-67-122.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:35 -!- siraj [~siraj@adsl-68-93-67-122.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:39 -!- gonedrk [~gonedrk@d40a6497.rev.stofanet.dk] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:45 < hearn> Adlai: technically i think a signature scheme can be called a non-interactive proof of knowledge 07:45 < hearn> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_of_knowledge 07:47 -!- iang [~iang@cpc3-lewi16-2-0-cust561.2-4.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: iang] 07:47 -!- maraoz [~maraoz@186.137.72.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 07:55 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@unaffiliated/wallet42] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:02 * Adlai adds this to the ever-growing reading list 08:03 -!- maraoz [~maraoz@181.109.196.186] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:04 -!- Emcy [~MC@152.27.187.81.in-addr.arpa] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:04 -!- Emcy [~MC@152.27.187.81.in-addr.arpa] has quit [Changing host] 08:04 -!- Emcy [~MC@unaffiliated/mc1984] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:07 -!- iang [~iang@cpc3-lewi16-2-0-cust561.2-4.cable.virginm.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:17 -!- wallet421 [~wallet42@78.141.131.98] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:17 -!- wallet421 [~wallet42@78.141.131.98] has quit [Changing host] 08:17 -!- wallet421 [~wallet42@unaffiliated/wallet42] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:17 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@unaffiliated/wallet42] has quit [Killed (wolfe.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services))] 08:17 -!- wallet421 is now known as wallet42 08:26 -!- Tjopper [~Jop@dhcp-077-249-237-229.chello.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:27 -!- alferz [~alferz@unaffiliated/alfer] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:30 -!- alferz [~alferz@c-174-50-153-223.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:30 -!- alferz [~alferz@c-174-50-153-223.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 08:30 -!- alferz [~alferz@unaffiliated/alfer] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:31 -!- siraj [~siraj@adsl-68-93-67-122.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:36 -!- siraj [~siraj@adsl-68-93-67-122.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:37 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@unaffiliated/wallet42] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:42 -!- midnightmagic [~midnightm@unaffiliated/midnightmagic] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:42 -!- gonedrk [~gonedrk@d40a6497.rev.stofanet.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:42 -!- alferz [~alferz@unaffiliated/alfer] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:42 < andytoshi> Adlai: yes, a public key digital signature is a form of a nizk (noninteractive proof of knowledge) 08:42 < andytoshi> Adlai: a term used to emphasize this is "signature of knowledge" 08:44 -!- SDCDev [~quassel@unaffiliated/sdcdev] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:45 -!- midnightmagic [~midnightm@unaffiliated/midnightmagic] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:48 -!- alferz [~alferz@unaffiliated/alfer] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:50 < andytoshi> actually i don't think it's true in general that an existentially unforgeable sig is a nizk. but this is true that schnorr signatures are nizk (and possibly ecdsa too) 08:54 -!- iang [~iang@cpc3-lewi16-2-0-cust561.2-4.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: iang] 08:57 -!- maraoz [~maraoz@181.109.196.186] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:59 -!- tacotime [~mashkeys@198.52.200.63] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:00 < sipa> andytoshi: is it still a nizk if it has a requirement such as 'never use related nonces for the same message/key' ? 09:01 < MRL-Relay> [surae] sipa probably not.. ZK protocols are built to avoid edge cases like using related nonces 09:03 < MRL-Relay> [surae] in principal, a NIZK proof should be a general algorithm that proves knowledge without revealing any secret information, regardless of choices of input to the message like nonces... whereas a previously agreed-upon parameters (like the elliptic curve choice in ecdsa) could possibly ruin an NIZK scheme. but andytoshi will almost certainly correct 09:03 < MRL-Relay> me on this 09:07 < andytoshi> surae: the security property of nizk is roughly (a) soundness, ie it is "hard" to make a proof without a witness, (b) zero-knowledge, ie there exists a simulator which can produce a proof of any statement in the language which is statistically indistinguishable from an honest proof 09:07 < andytoshi> here "simulator" is a term of art meaning an entity that can control the CRS, control the random oracle, in an interactive protocol can go back in time, etc 09:08 < andytoshi> sipa: yeah, the trick is that against an adversary who controls the RO you -can't- have such a requirement, because you have to commit to the nonce before you know the hash challenge 09:08 < sipa> the RO? 09:09 < andytoshi> random oracle 09:09 < sipa> ah random oracle 09:09 < andytoshi> there are unique signature schemes which have this "no nonce reuse" condition baked into them, i expect there aren't any such schemes that are also nizks 09:10 -!- maraoz [~maraoz@186.137.72.181] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:12 -!- d1ggy [~d1ggy@dslb-088-073-209-029.088.073.pools.vodafone-ip.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:12 < andytoshi> ah, this is deterministic but uses a RO ... and it is zero knowledge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boneh-Lynn-Shacham 09:13 < andytoshi> (because you can set H(m) = g^y for uniformly random y, then H(m)^x is easy to compute as (g^x)^y, but H(m) will still appear to be uniformly random) 09:14 -!- iang [~iang@cpc3-lewi16-2-0-cust561.2-4.cable.virginm.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:15 -!- d1ggy [~d1ggy@dslb-088-073-209-029.088.073.pools.vodafone-ip.de] has quit [Client Quit] 09:16 < andytoshi> here is one that is non-deterministic, but has no RO, so a simulator has no extra powers. so not a nizk: https://crypto.stanford.edu/~dabo/pubs/papers/bbsigs.pdf (page 8 is the actual scheme) 09:21 -!- Dizzle [~Dizzle@pool-108-44-72-46.ronkva.east.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:47 -!- koshii [~0@c-68-58-151-30.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:53 -!- vmatekole [~vmatekole@e179116099.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:53 -!- koshii [~0@c-68-58-151-30.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:54 -!- CoinMuncher [~jannes@178.132.211.90] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:55 -!- maraoz [~maraoz@186.137.72.181] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:56 -!- Dizzle [~Dizzle@pool-108-44-72-46.ronkva.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 09:56 -!- catlasshrugged 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it's a spew of template errors for me. 19:55 < petertodd> gmaxwell: nah, gotta get thsi micropayment channel demo done this morning first 20:04 -!- Dizzle [~Dizzle@pool-108-44-72-46.ronkva.east.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:08 -!- Dizzle [~Dizzle@pool-108-44-72-46.ronkva.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:24 -!- aburan28 [~ubuntu@107.107.60.165] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:24 -!- dgenr8 [~dgenr8@unaffiliated/dgenr8] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:25 -!- dgenr8 [~dgenr8@unaffiliated/dgenr8] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:30 -!- TheSeven [~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:32 -!- TheSeven [~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:43 -!- soundx [~soundx@gateway/tor-sasl/soundx] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:46 -!- berndj [~berndj@azna.co.za] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 20:50 -!- Guest89624 [~berndj@azna.co.za] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:53 -!- Dizzle [~Dizzle@pool-108-44-72-46.ronkva.east.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:56 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:59 -!- Guest89624 [~berndj@azna.co.za] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 21:11 -!- hashtagg [~hashtagg_@CPE-69-23-213-3.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:13 -!- soundx [~soundx@gateway/tor-sasl/soundx] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:13 -!- hashtag_ [~hashtagg_@CPE-69-23-213-3.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:16 -!- bit2017 [~linker@1.54.73.86] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:17 -!- Guest57566 [~ech0@li578-62.members.linode.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:17 -!- zooko [~user@68.233.149.129] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:18 -!- siraj [~siraj@adsl-68-93-67-122.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:20 -!- shifter [~ech0@li578-62.members.linode.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:20 -!- shifter is now known as Guest19372 21:20 -!- e1782d11df4c9914 [gues@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-lhvdnuaclhttcdlt] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:22 -!- e1782d11df4c9914 [gues@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-vbsscisdtcoowiad] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:36 -!- Guest19372 [~ech0@li578-62.members.linode.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:41 -!- contrapumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:44 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:45 -!- catlasshrugged [~satoshi-u@208-58-112-15.c3-0.upd-ubr1.trpr-upd.pa.cable.rcn.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:45 -!- coiner [~linker@1.54.73.86] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:46 -!- bit2017 [~linker@1.54.73.86] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:56 -!- e1782d11df4c9914 [gues@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-vbsscisdtcoowiad] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:58 -!- helo [~helo@unaffiliated/helo] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:58 -!- waxwing [~waxwing@62.205.214.125] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:58 -!- nsh_ [~nsh@host86-154-43-227.range86-154.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 21:58 -!- e1782d11df4c9914 [gues@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-lpvoqrdtjvgucmnt] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:59 -!- helo [~helo@unaffiliated/helo] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:59 -!- waxwing [~waxwing@62.205.214.125] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:00 -!- nsh_ [~nsh@host86-154-43-227.range86-154.btcentralplus.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:26 -!- waxwing [~waxwing@62.205.214.125] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:30 -!- waxwing [~waxwing@62.205.214.125] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:37 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@76-255-129-88.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:37 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:39 -!- waxwing [~waxwing@62.205.214.125] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:43 -!- waxwing [~waxwing@62.205.214.125] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:43 -!- DougieBot5000_ [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:46 -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:53 -!- bit2017 [~linker@113.161.87.238] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:53 -!- coiner [~linker@113.161.87.238] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:13 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@unaffiliated/wallet42] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:19 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:19 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:21 -!- Dizzle [~Dizzle@pool-108-44-72-46.ronkva.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 23:23 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:31 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:35 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]