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00:55 < rusty> maaku: thanks...
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01:23 < gmaxwell> FKING@#*($*(@# INTERNET CRYPTOGRAPHY
01:24 < gmaxwell> (sorry for the outburst, I was using a found on the internet implementation of PIR ... and had spent some time creating a high performance version of it when I completely broke the cryptosystem.)
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02:01 < op_corn> gmaxwell: sounds dangerous to have you around the office. "god damn it, greg slipped and factored all the primes I left in the tea room".
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03:27  * nsh chuckles
03:28 < nsh> gmaxwell, how did you break it, out of curiosity?
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06:23 < jgarzik> atgreen, Glad to see moxie getting some attention :)
06:23 < jgarzik> merged
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06:57 < atgreen`> jgarzik: I'm going to make one backwards incompatible change soon: shorten load/store offsets to 16 bits.  32-bits is just a waste.  I'll submit patches to the tools, cores and moxiebox simultaneously.
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06:58 < jgarzik> atgreen, sure.  backwards incompat changes are fine for moxiebox at this stage.  I'm all for it.
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07:09 < gmaxwell> nsh: By taking a shower? (usual method of breaking cryptosystems)
07:09 < gmaxwell> I've fixed it, I think. Though I also found a second less serious flaw that I haven't fixed yet.
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07:24 < atgreen> jgarzik: one more PR for you
07:27 < gmaxwell> atgreen: spiffy!
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07:30 < jgarzik> atgreen, Does that require a toolchain update?
07:30 < jgarzik> locally, for me, I mean.
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07:31 < jgarzik> On deck for the new year is crypto instructions for moxiebox.
07:31 < jgarzik> I haven't figured out a good cost metric for that yet.  Version 1 will probably just do something dumb like "cycles += 100000".
07:31 < gmaxwell> "accelerators"
07:32 < jgarzik> indeed
07:32 < gmaxwell> I'd assume the cyclecount would part of the function prototype?
07:32 < sipa> a virtual machine with EC points and scalars as special registers would be nice :)
07:33 < gmaxwell> hah
07:33 < jgarzik> gmaxwell, It can be, sure.  The main thing is getting the proportions correct
07:33 < jgarzik> the calling convention is easy
07:35 < sipa> gmaxwell: if they're special registers, they can have implicit jacobian coordinates etc
07:35 < atgreen> jgarzik: yes, you'll need to update the tools.
07:35 < jgarzik> atgreen, OK.
07:35 < gmaxwell> one thing I've noticed is how much gain you can get from having lower level access.  E.g. the PIR thing that I'm working on is massively sped up by being able to do the polynominal interpolation as a multi-exp.
07:36 < atgreen> I should host some pre-built toolchains.  jgarzik , gmaxwell : you are both ubuntu users, right?
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07:36 < gmaxwell> atgreen: no, gentoo+fedora.
07:36 < jgarzik> atgreen, Former Fedora user, who would love to return to Fedora if I didn't have to suffer so much for license purity.
07:36 < jgarzik> atgreen, tl;dr yes Ubuntu :)
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07:37 < atgreen> ok, so everything :(
07:37 < atgreen> we can hack the moxiebox configury to test for the right tools versions.
07:37 < atgreen> stepping away from keyboard for a while...
07:37 < gmaxwell> atgreen: well don't go making prebuilt tools for _my_ sake. most other people are ubuntu.  I'm perfectly capable of building my own tools (and run GCC svn pretty frequently)
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07:38 < atgreen> not just for you. Iwas going to do it for regular moxie-rtems anyway.
07:38 < jgarzik> atgreen, Bitcoin users seem to prefer Ubuntu, based on anecdotal observation
07:39 < jgarzik> as it includes ECDSA libs that others such as Fedora exclude
07:39 < sipa> not much longer shall such a requirement exist!
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07:42 < gmaxwell> sipa: shadow jacobian can be done without registers. You make it so accelerators can allocate memory in special accelerator only 'segments'.  Then you can point=secp256k1_new_point(); And it's just an opaque pointer.
07:42 < sipa> right, sure
07:42 < sipa> it's more about having special data type, and operators and extract and construct
07:43 < sipa> separate registers is useful as can hide implementation details better, and might be better fit in term of memory allocation for them etc
07:44 < gmaxwell> sipa: even if you want it to be like registers it can be point=secp256k1_new_point(int special_point_register_idx); and just have the range defined by the accelerator api.
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08:38 < gmaxwell> atgreen: As a random aside, have you seen tinyram?  http://www.scipr-lab.org/doc/TinyRAM-spec-0.991.pdf    it's a very simple risc designed to have a maximally small arithemetic circuit to verify that a transcript of execution was correct.  Because the proof enviroments its targeted for are so slow they did care a fair bit about program size, and one of their papers has benchmarks vs x86/arm/avr
08:38 < gmaxwell> https://eprint.iacr.org/2013/507.pdf (page 12)
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09:43 < atgreen> gmaxwell: thanks!  I'll read it.
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16:28 < atgreen> gmaxwell: just read TinyRAM spec.  The ISAs are pretty similar. TinyRAM has a conditional jump, and numerous compare instructions, while moxie has one compare instruction and numerous conditional branch instructions.  I like the moxie approach because you can reuse the compare result with multiple branches.
16:29 < atgreen> They don't have an arithmetic shift right, which is a nice to have, I suppose.  GCC likes emitting them.
16:30 < atgreen> They just have a single addressing mode, which is not great from a code density perspective.
16:30 < atgreen> I had a quick look for the size comparison docs but haven't found them yet.
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16:40 < gmaxwell> re: addressing mode, I assume thats a result of the circuit size, IIRC the vast majority of the size is in the sorting network that checks agrement with memory access history, so probably any memory instruction complexity is trouble for them.
16:40 < gmaxwell> atgreen: https://eprint.iacr.org/2013/507.pdf page 12 has the code size graphs
16:43 < atgreen> yes, I just found that.  it's only word addressable?
16:43 < atgreen> hmm.. yes
16:43 < gmaxwell> For their application though you could always subset an instruction set. E.g. someone could make a proof system that verified moxie transacripts, and if instruction $foo was burdensome, you could just be forbidden from using it... at least so long as omitting that instruction didn't hose the code density.
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16:47 < gmaxwell> (e.g. if $foo make the circuit to verify the transcript awful)
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16:53 < sipa> ok, arm assembly is unreadable to me :)
16:55 < gmaxwell> Also, I think a primary optimization criteria for them was the amount of idle logic (esp mux logic), they'd probably never include an instruction that could be emulated by two instructions.  The reason for this is the prover complexity is basically linear in the unrolled circuit size. E.g. if you repeat the cpu circuit for each cycle it runs.  So adding one gate to the CPU adds $cycles gates to t
16:55 < gmaxwell> he whole proof. An extra instruction has to save a lot of cycles before is a win for them.
16:56 < gmaxwell> sipa: did you just dive in and try reading it or did you read something on arm asm first?
16:56 < sipa> gmaxwell: i have never seen arm assembly in my life; this is a totally expected result :)
16:56 < gmaxwell> arm does a bunch of interesting things esp in non-thumb mode, like packing immediates into the instructions.
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16:56 < gmaxwell> or packing in shift modifiers.
16:57 < sipa> i couldn't write x86_64 assembly either, but at least i had seen plenty of disassemblies :)
16:57 < sipa> i should try to write a naive extgcd based modular inverse, and see how it compares to a fixed ladder
16:57 < gmaxwell> sipa: wumpus may have a better resource but http://people.xiph.org/~tterribe/daala/neon_tutorial.pdf the first few pages here cover basic arm.
16:58 < sipa> yeah, i'll read up - i just wonder how to assure myself that wumpus' code is correct
16:59 < gmaxwell> sipa: I think the GMP code had a comment that their sub-quadratic algorithim started to be a win at about 200-ish bits. so perhaps that wouldn't be much worse than gmp?
16:59 < sipa> interesting
17:00 < gmaxwell> (though win may not be vs a completely plain approach either)
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17:16 < sipa> gmaxwell, wumpus: my memory was failing; we did merge a version of dettman's parallel multiply (and that's what wumpus converted); it's just an additional optimization he implemented that didn't seem beneficial on x86
17:17 < gmaxwell> ohh
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17:19 < gmaxwell> atgreen: might be interesting to compile some large divers corpus of code (specint? ugh) and compare the per function sizes between x86,arm,ppc,moxie and see if there are any functions that are gratitiously expanded on moxie.  Though; while saying that I bet the lack of super-optimizer-created peephole optimiztions hurts moxie (and to a lesser extent non-x86) pretty substantially.
17:20 < sipa> wumpus code having a comment about c and d gave it away (the original code only had c)
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18:54 < petertodd> rusty, maaku: note that there is acounter-argument to the idea that the UTXO set tree should be deterministic based on it's contents, which is that if it isn't all nodes are forced to recalculate it from actual blockchain data, which incentivises actually doing just that. it's not clear yet whether that's a stronger argument than the arguments for content determinism - depends a lot on how things like fraud proofs and so on are constructed.
18:58 < petertodd> rusty: FWIW (U)TXO commitments can end up breaking the security of bitcoin quite badly by removing the need for miners to validate history - the incentive to actually broadcast blockchain data is pretty fragile right now
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19:14 < wumpus> petertodd: I agree that validating history is good, but there is a decreasing merit to validating the further-back you go, some blocks must have been validated well enough at some point
19:16 < gmaxwell> wumpus: he's just making the point that it enables anti-social behavior like writing botnet grade nodes that never validate anything except the tip and believe whatever the last block was from the network.
19:16 < wumpus> also because it ceases to matter at some point if it was wrong, say if bitcoin exists 50 years, only someone very idle would validate everything all the way back, and what if you find a mistake, re-do 50 years of transactions
19:16 < gmaxwell> Though I'm not sure I full agree at least today. You can already make those botnet nodes, just don't include any transactions at all.
19:17 < wumpus> it would be good to set some window though, not have 'start from yesterday' be acceptable
19:18 < gmaxwell> wumpus: careful that you don't fall into some trap with simulation there. "50 year" well how do you know it was 50 years back if you weren't there?   What happens when I give you a blockchain that claims 10 years of history that didn't happen and starts with 1 trillion bitcoin for me in the block right before your 'window' would create it?
19:20 < wumpus> gmaxwell: indeed, you don't know that for sure. But if it's the blockchain everyone that youre transacting with agrees on, what can you do.
19:21 < gmaxwell> wumpus: How do you know that it is? there isn't a mechenism right now that tells you if the blockchain you're transacting on and I'm transacting on are the same.
19:21 < wumpus> gmaxwell: ok...
19:22 < phantomcircuit> petertodd, the real cost of validation is virtually zero, utxo commitments are a 90% solution... but if it costs virtually nothing to do the 100% solution
19:22 < phantomcircuit> why not?
19:22 < gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: because people.
19:22 < wumpus> gmaxwell: the utxo hash could be used for that I suppose
19:22 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, 90% solution caries non-zero risk of reward loss
19:23 < gmaxwell> I think we've seen enough to know that if you can say 10% of coding effort in exchange for 99.9% of your users security, a lot of developers will take that option. :)
19:23 < wumpus> if you have a different utxo hash at the same height then you (or the other person) forked from the real truth somewhere
19:23 < phantomcircuit> it's easier to use getblocktemplate from bitcoind than to parse utxo commitments...
19:23 < gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: see also the person complaining on bitcoin core github that their blind mining from headers scraped from other pools got orphaned.
19:23 < phantomcircuit> wat
19:24 < phantomcircuit> lol well that does demonstrate my incentives point quite clearly
19:24 < phantomcircuit> :P
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19:24 < gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: it sure is but look at all those people who've gone and implemeted their own inevitably wrong "full" nodes for reasons that probably need a sociology class to explain.
19:25 < phantomcircuit> well as long as they all have *different* bugs that might not matter so much
19:25 < gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: well yes/no. None of us here would have doubted the risks/costs side of your argument: but there you see it, people did it inspite of those obvious risks.
19:25 < gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: it wouldn't except all of this stuff ends up with a power law distribution.
19:26 < phantomcircuit> hmm
19:27 < gmaxwell> e.g. it won't be 1000 equally popular differently broken versions, it'll be 30 differently broken versions which copy the same bugs from 8 different implementations, and have distributions like 60% 30% 5% 1% 0.5% 0.5%....
19:27 < gmaxwell> plus personal saftey isn't saved by many bugs only system wide.
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19:28 < gmaxwell> like okay say no bug has more than 10% penetration. And you're foo exchange on one of those versions. Well, it's no real consolation to you that the overall consistency of the network was preserved after someone ran off with 1000 btc from you.
19:29 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, right
19:29 < phantomcircuit> and that would suck
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19:29 < phantomcircuit> but well... that's your own fault
19:30 < gmaxwell> perhaps, but it's a rational (not just market effect) reason for not equal distribution...
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19:48 < wumpus> sipa: RE: ARM assembly, it's really easy once you get the hang of the syntax, the instructions do a single thing and do that to just the provided registers, no x86-ish "oh, the mul instruction always writes to dx:ax" weirdness
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19:51 < wumpus> arithmethic instructions even have to be explicitly told to update the condition flags, e.g., adds instead of add
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20:16 < maaku> petertodd: sure, let's just leave the system in a near-useless, crippled state for most people. that way it will be more convenient to use legacy systems instead.
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20:26 < wumpus> not useless for 'most people', there is always the alternative to use a SPV client and have SPV-level security, but for full nodes and miners it will get increasingly hard to get started if they have to validate from the genesis block. I'm convinced we need utxo commitments of some form.
20:28 < wumpus> maybe we should commit to the utxo of 10000 blocks ago? :-)
20:29 < wumpus> nah, that doesn't help
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20:49 < maaku> wumpus: the alternatives for scaling petertodd advocates for lack an SPV mode
20:52 < gmaxwell> Anyone with long running IPv4 plublically reachable nodes mind sharing your getpeerinfo with me?  Just trying to get a quick list of IPs that are agressively connecting to everyone they can.
20:56 < kanzure> sent by pm
20:57 < maaku> wumpus: i think the simulation threat prevents one from forgetting history entirely. you have to validate to genesis. but a utxo commitment does bring nice benefits like transferring validator state with SPV security
20:58 < maaku> (not recommended for bootstrapping your own node from untrusted peers, but perhaps has applications within an organization or from known but external peers
21:00 < maaku> for non-mining full nodes bootstrapping the UTXO set from the network could make sense
21:03 < wumpus> isn't it the case that the deeper you go into the chain, the smaller the simulation threat?
21:05 < gmaxwell> wumpus: no. The more total work is done the more costly, though you may not have an objective benchmark for cost.
21:05 < wumpus> e.g. if you start from a utxo commitment 100000 blocks back, that would take impossible amounts of computing power to fake, or am I missing something?
21:05 < wumpus> ok... well yes that makes it pretty useless then
21:08 < gmaxwell> wumpus: well wrt impossible: this is the amount of work at the current hashrate that it would take to replace the whole chain: http://bitcoin.sipa.be/powdays-50k.png
21:08 < gmaxwell> in days.
21:09 < wumpus> I expect that to be the case because bitcoin is still so young
21:10 < gmaxwell> in any case a metric like "learn many chains, and you can do reduced checking along the path when best work chain has at least 60 days advantage at the highest hasrate seen"
21:10 < wumpus> there is so much more hash power now than in the early days
21:11 < wumpus> yes
21:15 < maaku> wumpus: actually most long-term models of bitcoin hash rate end up showing that there will be more unused capacity than now
21:16 < maaku> meaning startup capital costs to creating a simulation would be a lot lower
21:16 < wumpus> maaku: well sure that's one direction things can go in
21:18 < maaku> wumpus: i'm not sure how it doesn't go in that direction, since it is more than likely that people will overshoot on the last round of asics during the exponential growth stage
21:18 < maaku> *super-exponential
21:22 < wumpus> maaku: in the case the hashrate is stable for a long time, and the number of miners or amount of mining hardware is no longer increasing significantly, ie at most a few % per year, it becomes unfeasible to simulate all from the beginning
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