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01:54 < petertodd> maaku: did you even read what I said above? I didn't say a thing about scaling, just that a UTXO commitment deterministic on full blockchain history rather than UTXO contents may have some advantages - you're knee is seriously jerking...
01:56 < petertodd> maaku: secondly it's very mistaken to say the scaling alternatives I propose lack SPV - implementing SPV on them is harder, but it's clear there are viable approaches and more research on them should be done - at least I am proposing things that can scale up - your camp isn't proposing any new ideas for scaling, and many of your proposed ideas make scaling up worse
01:57 < gmaxwell> petertodd: maaku was a bit reactionary above to your off the cuff comment, But "your camp".... come now. If I'm to presume that includes me-- a signficant fraction of all the improved scaling ideas in this space have come from me.
01:58 < petertodd> gmaxwell: and as you know, a significant fraction have come from me
01:58 < gmaxwell> absolutely.
01:59 < petertodd> gmaxwell: point is *blockstream* isn't proposing new scaling ideas beyond off-chain txs
01:59 < Luke-Jr> are we having a camp-out?
01:59 < gmaxwell> (I did agree maaku was reading too much into your remart!  but no need to fight about it, it's a fine clarification)
01:59 < gmaxwell> remark*
02:00 < petertodd> Luke-Jr: get the marshmellows
02:00 < Luke-Jr> gmaxwell's living room again? :p\
02:00 < Luke-Jr> oh, maybe it'll have to be my place then
02:00 < gmaxwell> hehe. it's cold here. otoh my living room is mostly empty.
02:00  * Luke-Jr has 2 fireplaces
02:00 < petertodd> Luke-Jr: I'm not sure if a fire would make that place better or worse...
02:00 < petertodd> gmaxwell: oh that's a change
02:01 < gmaxwell> petertodd: I did eventually get the shelves installed and the boxes unpacked.
02:01 < Luke-Jr> XD
02:02 < petertodd> gmaxwell: ha, so that's why bitcoin development slowed down...
02:02 < Luke-Jr> so we should release 0.11 in a week and all go on a camping trip without internet
02:02 < Luke-Jr> we'd come home to find the dev team doubled maybe
02:03 < petertodd> Luke-Jr: do you mean immediately, or in 9 months?
02:03 < Luke-Jr> petertodd: immediately; merge all the PRs and go :P
02:04 < Luke-Jr> there's gotta be some chaos to attract the new devs, after all
02:04  * rusty wakes up.... petertodd, I'm not sure that UTXO makes it worse, but I share your concern about miners not validating blocks.  I doubt it's happening now, but it's one of those things which would go under the radar until things exploded.
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02:05 < rusty> petertodd: of course, a genuinely greedy miner should probably just ignore all txs and chase block rewards right now.
02:07 < petertodd> rusty: yeah, that they don't is due to social stuff - miners rarely do optimal things, which is both good and bad
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02:08 < petertodd> rusty: I'm not sure that UTXO makes it worse either, but I am sure it might :P
02:09 < petertodd> anyway, bbl, 31c3...
02:09 < gmaxwell> Tail risk is a big concern. But what maaku was focusing on is an issue too.  I mean, doesn't matter if miners are/aren't if people won't even run nodes.
02:09 < gmaxwell> petertodd: say hi to BlueMatt if you see him
02:10 < rusty> petertodd: oh, CCC... am jealous.
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02:16 < rusty> gmaxwell: are there are set of more concrete OP_SIDECHAINPROOFVERIFY proposals in the works?  The details for how to decide how much work the sidechain needs to do before the tx is accepted, for example, and of course, which SPV proof anti-cheat mechanism.
02:16 < gmaxwell> Yup.
02:16 < gmaxwell> (soon!)
02:17 < rusty> gmaxwell: is it going to be before the 16th of January, thus requiring me to hurriedly rewrite my linux.conf.au "What pettycoin should have done" talk?
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03:58 < gmaxwell> a3f98002ded279ad4a60d2a99a872f5e39e2db20
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03:59 < copumpkin> I disagree
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04:04 < Luke-Jr> well I don't disagree.
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05:22 < rusty> maaku: OK, a new winner!  mmr tree got us down (for 8M blocks) to 108-2048(736.812+/-4.6e+02) hashes, but using a cache of blocks which provided the optimum CSPV path for the previous block gets us down to 51-1410(429.75+/-3.2e+02).
05:23 < rusty> pushed... but it's very late here, so might be completely smoking crack.
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06:48 < gmaxwell> Someone pointed me to http://blog.bettercrypto.com/?p=1004  and it irritated me enough that I spent some time writing a response (though I know I shouldn't feed the troll...). Un(?)fortunately the site doesn't actually allow responding, it just gobbles the response. I went through the effort to save the post from my browser process ram, so I might as well link it here for your edification http://
06:48 < gmaxwell> people.xiph.org/~greg/re_Courtois_1004.txt
06:51 < sipa> heh, i've written a response on one of the blog posts there too
06:51 < gmaxwell> also to find that it didn't work?
06:53 < sipa> it ended up being 'pending approval;
06:53 < sipa> not sure which post anymore
06:54 < sipa> oh, it ended up on the site!
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06:54 < sipa> http://blog.bettercrypto.com/?p=916
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07:02 < gmaxwell> I'm up to 7 getpeerinfo snapshots. Anyone want to help me reach my goal of 8?
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07:15 < midnightmagic> i guess you aren't interested in a sample from anytime other than today? I have this: home/btc/sample/bitcoind-getpeerinfo-20140513-01:06:01.gz
07:16 < gmaxwell> thats interesting.
07:16 < midnightmagic> as well as about 20 days prior, 5 minute sample intervals (or so)
07:16 < gmaxwell> midnightmagic: send to me. might be interesting to have a long term view there.
07:16 < midnightmagic> okie dokie.
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07:18 < maaku> gmaxwell: you have shamed me into running a public bitcoind node again
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07:25 < midnightmagic> gmaxwell: see pm :)
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13:42 < brand0> is publishing a bitcoin pubkey considered a security risk, assuming you're only going to use the corresponding address once
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13:45 < Luke-Jr> brand0: it reduces security, but I'm not sure I'd call it a risk
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13:46 < Luke-Jr> I would avoid it if possible
13:46 < brand0> a pubkey swap is necessary for generating a multisig address, though, correct?
13:46 < Luke-Jr> not strictly, but it may be worth it in that case
13:47 < Luke-Jr> frankly, in that case, you probably want to swap HD chains
13:48 < brand0> interesting
13:48 < brand0> does the rpc interface support that? i was only aware of addmultisigaddress
13:49 < Luke-Jr> no
13:50 < Luke-Jr> there's not really any significant HD wallet support in Bitcoin Core today
13:50 < Luke-Jr> also, these topics seem like #bitcoin-dev material
13:50 < brand0> that's true
13:51 < brand0> my last "security" question got way off track so I landed here
13:51 < brand0> thanks for your help tho, Luke-Jr
13:52 < Luke-Jr> np
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14:33 < phantomcircuit> <wumpus> [04:26:58] not useless for 'most people', there is always the alternative to use a SPV client and have SPV-level security, but for full nodes and miners it will get increasingly hard to get started if they have to validate from the genesis block. I'm convinced we need utxo commitments of some form.
14:33 < phantomcircuit> the maximum growth of 55GB/year should be well within the reach of any financially viable pool/miner
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14:48 < phantomcircuit> brand0, the window to attack a pubkeyhash is very short if the pubkey is only published once when the tx out is spent
14:49 < phantomcircuit> it's just bad engineering to increase that window without a very good reason
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14:51 < op_null> phantomcircuit: I'd hate to be trlying on that as a security feature though. with enough at stake it's conceivable someone would force reorgs to break a key.
14:52 < phantomcircuit> op_null, that still potentially substantially narrows the time to attack
14:53 < phantomcircuit> maybe you now have 30m-2h instead of months
14:53 < op_null> have we seen any cases of races with non-CHECKSIG transactions?
14:53  * op_null nods
14:53 < phantomcircuit> or in the case of some of the first mined blocks years
14:53 < phantomcircuit> (they pay directly to a pubkey)
14:54 < op_null> becomes more dangerous if you have groups like blockchain.info retaining non-hardened BIP32 public keys. it turns into a very valuable resource if someone can break a single private key with ~years of compute time.
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15:01 < op_mul> phantomcircuit: I suppose that is actually quite a nice safe guard. you have very good incentives to crack early keys and alert people to the fact that you have an ECDSA 0day.
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15:15 < rusty2> gmaxwell: hmm, I liked your response.  Of course, we're assuming secp256r1 isn't NSA-as-good-guys protecting from some as-yet-unknown attack (a-la DES s-boxen); maybe he's an optimist :)
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15:18 < gmaxwell> rusty: Yep. I've raised that possibility before too;  I think most people would rather take their chances with the unknown than with maybe-help from the NSA.
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15:24 < sipa> gmaxwell: is your courtois answer gone?
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15:30 < maaku> rusty: that's at the cost of incremental construction though, right?
15:32 < maaku> phantomcircuit: we must prepare for significantly bigger block sizes (on mainchain or a sidechain)
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15:36 < gmaxwell> sipa: no, same place it was.
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15:37 < brand0> https://lists.torproject.org/pipermail/tor-talk/2013-September/029956.html
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15:37 < brand0> I feel like that was a decent summary of the issue
15:37 < rusty> maaku: Off the top of my head, yes.  You can't determine shortest path to genesis without every block, really.
15:38 < maaku> rusty: not sure that justifies even a 50% reduction ...
15:38 < rusty> maaku: I think there's a question on whether we should insist that the "cache" be optimal, however.
15:39 < rusty> maaku: ie. put whatever you want (as long as it's valid) on the left branch of the tree.
15:39 < rusty> maaku: or maybe we only update that every 2016 blocks?
15:41 < phantomcircuit> maaku, on mainchain? probably not
15:41 < phantomcircuit> on sidechains? probably, but those should at least in theory scale ~horizontally
15:42 < phantomcircuit> each one being independent
15:42 < maaku> phantomcircuit: eh, that's not so clear-cut in terms of mining incentives
15:42 < maaku> arguments can be made that miners will have to mine them all (or defer, but that's a suboptimal situation)
15:43 < phantomcircuit> maaku, there are various possible tradeoffs miners can make
15:43 < phantomcircuit> very large miners can run all the sidechains & validation logic
15:43 < phantomcircuit> smaller ones that cant justify the overhead can outsource the work to a trusted third party (federated being trivial)
15:44 < phantomcircuit> with an incentive to do full validation as the federated model collusion could steal from the miner potentially
15:44 < gmaxwell> The the whole story around some curves maybe being bad is a bit iffy in any case. If you're really worried about that you should also be worried about isogenys; most randomly selected curves are members of enormous classes of curves where there exists a bijection or surjection onto another curve where point arithmetic holds; these maps can be expensive to compute but are often not intractable. So
15:44 < gmaxwell>  if discrete log is hard in some random fraction of curves, you can keep trying random isogenys until find one where the discrete log is magically easy.  If this were really a concern you'd want to select curves constructed the class of isogenys is known small; but generally no one is doing that.  (Uh well, actually I think thats an unintentional side effect of the GLV construction used for our c
15:44 < gmaxwell> urve; but I'm out of my depth on the number theory here).
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15:53 < maaku> rusty: the problem with "put whatever you want" is that it is now consensus-critical data that must be relayed with the block
15:55 < maaku> the problem with non-incremental structures is similar, although not as bad -- you can't validate the root without the entire block header history
15:55 < maaku> in other words it's not just efficiency arguments at play here
15:58 < rusty> maaku: Well, it's log(depth) hashes though, for the cache, so that's not much data to carry.
16:03 < maaku> rusty: rustyis this prevsteps?
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16:08 < rusty> maaku: yeah..
16:11 < maaku> huffman outperforms rfc6962?
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16:17 < maaku> rusty: btw to make absolutely sure we're comparing apples to apples, we might want to pregenerate the lucky values for each block header
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16:20 < maaku> if my reading of the code is right, it's possible for two methods to take different paths, which result in different block header histories
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16:28 < rusty> maaku: ok, stepping back.  I tried adding a "cache", ie. some blocks duplicated in left branch, mmr tree in right branch.
16:28 < rusty> maaku: first attempt was simply the N "luckiest" blocks.
16:28 < rusty> maaku: then played with different topologies of that cache tree.  The winner was a huffman tree.
16:29 < rusty> maaku: then I realized that almost always, the best path is v. similar to the previous best path, so instead of a cache, I just used the previous CSPV path back to genesis.
16:29 < rusty> maaku: ... using the same MMR topology for that "cache tree".
16:30 < rusty> maaku: Now, that *is* deterministic, and *is* incremental.
16:30 < maaku> right path to genesis is optimal for the cache, since you're using it for large skips back
16:31 < maaku> so you're storing path to gensis on the left branch, and mmr of all blocks on the right branch
16:33 < rusty> maaku: yeah, which means some blocks are stored twice, but probably not worth optimizing.
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16:33 < maaku> yeah certainly not. space is cheap in a hash tree structure
16:33 < maaku> nice results. i will be afk for a few hours (catching sleep before my kids wake up, early am here)
16:34 < rusty> maaku: exactly.  Sure... thanks!
16:37 < maaku> and besides, path to genesis isn't 'extra' data to keep around -- it's presumed available in many cases
16:37 < maaku> because you need to show path to genesis to demonstrate connectivity and aggregate work
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20:11 < maaku> rusty: *optimal* path to genesis is not incremental
20:12 < maaku> although we could of course come up with an incremental rule that gives good paths
20:14 < maaku> because a new lucky block could overshoot one of the intermediate headers and it might be fewer hashes to take one of the intermediate headers instead
20:14 < maaku> *take one of the elided headers
20:24 < rusty> maaku: confused...
20:25 < maaku> rusty: okay imagine path to genesis is 10000 -> 100 -> 0
20:25 < rusty> maaku: yep.
20:25 < maaku> If I get a lucky block that skips all the way back to 1, the optimal path is X -> 1 -> 0
20:25 < rusty> maaku: yep.
20:26 < rusty> maaku: but for block 10001, we use optimal path for block 10000.  We don't know the optimal path for this block until we solved it, of course, when it's too late...
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20:27 < maaku> but the problem is block 1 isn't in the cache
20:27 < rusty> maaku: turns out, the optimal path very rarely changes, so it's a good guess as to what we'll need.
20:27 < rusty> maaku: that's why it's in the mmr tree.
20:27 < rusty> maaku: which is why we need both.
20:27 < rusty> ie. left node is cache, right node is mmr tree.
20:28 < maaku> rusty: no, two issues : (1) the contents of the block might not be known to the validator
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20:28 < maaku> (2) the entire mmr tree might not be known to the validator
20:28 < maaku> the validator might only know the peaks of the mmr, and the list of cached headers (path to genesis)
20:28 < rusty> maaku: this depends on the definition of "incremental", I guess.
20:29 < rusty> maaku: you can't validate this unless you know all the headers, it's true.
20:29 < maaku> ok by incremental I mean that it is updatable or validatable without knowing all the headers or block contents
20:30 < maaku> it is incremental in the above example if you store 10001 -> 100 -> 0
20:30 < rusty> maaku: so, is mmr not incremental?
20:31 < maaku> mmr is incremental, you just store the peaks
20:32 < maaku> but that's the point -- if you assume the validator only has the peaks handy, it can't pull out other headers to use in the CSPV proof cache
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20:33 < rusty> maaku: only knowing the peaks for block N may be sufficient to check that the hash in block N+1, but it's not enough to use it for a CSPV hash of course.  At least, if you're trying to prove back to block M you have to know M...N.
20:35 < rusty> maaku: I'm assuming your point is that there's value in being able to verify?
20:39 < rusty> maaku: hmm, my original cache simply stored the N "luckiest" blocks, which is incrementally verifiable without knowing the rest of the blocks.
20:42 < maaku> that could work, or you can store the most recent block in a lucky range
20:43 < maaku> e.g. the most recent block header with 2^x <= luck < 2^x+1
20:47 < rusty> maaku: the reason storing the old best path works so well is that new lucky blocks (statistically) *always* converge with it.  ie. if it was 10000 9000 8000 7000 6000 5000 4000 3000 2000 1000 0, the 10001 block which could reach back just past 4000 will *always* reuse that 4000 3000 2000 1000 0 part of the path.  It never forges a new 3500 2500 1500 500 0 path.
20:48 < rusty> maaku: and that's why this cache works so well, because 4000 is a short proof. My previous attempts to pick winners failed badly.
20:48 < maaku> rusty: right, it will be close to optimal. but not actually optimal
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20:51 < rusty> maaku: well, my measurements put the incremental approach at 700 hashes, vs 430.  That's pretty big.
20:52 < rusty> maaku: I think "luckier than the 32 I have" can be refined (eg. consider overlaps?), but not that much.
20:56 < rusty> maaku: hmm, we could insist it be better or equal to the previous path (plus 1).  That makes it verifiable, but not calculable, and you really didn't want that.  I'll have to think some more...
20:58  * rusty needs more coffee...
21:10 < rusty> maaku: OK, what if we trim the cache when prev was lucky, otherwise add.  No changes allowed.  Off the top of my head, that seems sane.
21:10 < maaku> i'm not sure "the luckiest N" is really optimal
21:11 < rusty> maaku: I'm sure it's not!
21:11 < maaku> because after significant time those end up being very distant in the chain and therefore rarely used
21:12 < maaku> and e.g. taking the most recent lucky block of a specific interval of luckyness ensures that some recent low-luck blocks are produced
21:12 < maaku> *included
21:12 < rusty> maaku: yes, but you might miss a big win, and in the long run, the CSPV path is all about big wins.
21:14 < rusty> maaku: so I think we can build the (almost) optimal path cache incrementally.  Figure out which of the cache we can reach with the previous block, throw away the rest.  If we can't reach any, add the prev-1 block.
21:15 < rusty> (I don't know how close to optimal that will be, but I can find out)
21:21 < gmaxwell> maaku: the optimal path to genesis can be given by an incremental algorithim. Thats the dynamic programming solution I gave before.
21:23 < gmaxwell> it needs O(n) space. and O(n) computation.  Starting at genesis, you ask for each block which reachable block has the lowest cost to genesis? add one to the number and thats your cost to genesis, save that and the backpointer.  Then move onto the next block.
21:23 < gmaxwell> It's guarenteed to give the optimal path.
21:24 < maaku> gmaxwell: by optimal do you mean shortest? because we've already established by experiment that shortest is significantly sub-optimal
21:24 < maaku> i gave an example above where optimal involves pulling in other paths
21:24 < gmaxwell> it has the total fewest number of bytes.
21:28 < maaku> well as i showed above, that's not always the case. if the current best path is 10000 -> 100 -> 0, and 10001 is lucky enough to skip to block 1, that will absolutely result in a smaller, fewer bytes proof
21:28 < maaku> but, that's not incremental
21:29 < gmaxwell> maaku: sorry, we're obviously not communicating.  If you're at 10001 and you can jump to 1 you do. Whats the problem?
21:29 < rusty> gmaxwell: here, "incremental" also means "doesn't know all N blocks"
21:29 < maaku> gmaxwell: i'm talking about a someone who doesn't retain the full block history
21:30 < maaku> *full header history
21:30 < rusty> gmaxwell: really, I think maaku is trying to sharpen my brain by creating new barriers for me to overcome :)
21:30 < gmaxwell> maaku: Ah, I wasn't aware of that assumption. As I said: optimial solution requirest O(N) storage.
21:30 < gmaxwell> er requires*
21:30 < gmaxwell> gah can't spell.
21:30 < maaku> e.g. mmr has the property that you only have to remember log(N) hashes to validate block N+1
21:31 < maaku> so strictly speaking, committing to the shortest path to genesis as well (which rusty shows adds a 50% improvement), requires dropping that property
21:31 < gmaxwell> (well in the worst case the optimal prover must have N storage or do quadratic computation, though on average you can get a little savings by forgetting dominated paths)
21:33 < gmaxwell> Why would you commit to it?
21:33 < gmaxwell> the optimal path at block X depends gratly on block X's hash. It'll change based on how far back X can reach.
21:34 < maaku> gmaxwell: he is Huffman encoding a hash tree to the headers on the path back to genesis
21:35 < maaku> so those can be reached more quickly than descending into the commit-to-all-blocks tree
21:36 < gmaxwell> okay, that sounds somewhat like the path I was on before you'd bludgeoned me into the commit to all blocks line of thinking.
21:37 < gmaxwell> In any case, the DP solution can be adapted to any finite amount of storage, though the result is no loger optimal.
21:39 < gmaxwell> e.g. you have a finite memory, and when you go to add a new block you forget the highest cost to genesis oldest block in your memory. Often that block will be dominated (e.g. there is a later block that has lower cost) and so it won't hurt the solution quality at all, but not always.
21:40 < rusty> gmaxwell: hmm, actually, I have an algo which seems to perform well with (probabalistically) log(N).  Assuming I haven't completely messed up...
21:40 < gmaxwell> I'd expect that having any state at all with dramatically improve your solution quality.
21:41 < rusty> gmaxwell: if block N can reach a block in N-1's optimal path, do so.  Otherwise, append N-1 to the path.
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21:41 < rusty> maaku: that's also incremental, in your sense, if we're recording N-1's optimal path in the tree as a cache.
21:42 < maaku> gmaxwell: right well committing to just the path to genesis wouldn't work, but this hybrid approach seems to be performing under experiment
21:42 < maaku> rusty is checking more than just path to genesis iirc
21:42 < rusty> maaku: ... well, I *can*, but I wasn't.  Let me do that now...
21:42 < maaku> ah that might change things
21:43 < maaku> my intuition is that to skip far back, you get on the path to genesis, then hop off and use the other side of the tree to get where you want to go
21:43 < gmaxwell> rusty: right but lets say N gets super lucky and jumps to 100 which jumps to 50 which jumps to 25 which jumps to 1.  You're even luckier and can jump to 24 which jumps to 1. But thats not on N's path, so you jump to N instead of 25.
21:44 < maaku> so long as you have access to both, you don't get in the pathological bad cases that worried me about optimizing for path to genesis
21:46 < gmaxwell> rusty: one solution I did before was  "when prepping my commitment, I figure out what my optimal path if I can go 1 back, 2 back 3 back.. etc. and I merge duplicates and only commit to the unique values"  the results to genesis were good, but the result to other blocks were often very poor.
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21:46 < rusty> gmaxwell: I have yet to find a case where that actually happens.  I'll keep testing,  because it *should*.  But it's rare because you need two lucky blocks (24 and 25) close together, then a solution which can't use 24 (since my code will use the furthest block it can), *then* another which beats the first solution which can use it.
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21:47 < rusty> gmaxwell: (yet to find == I ran 20 times and eyeballed the SPV lengths).
21:47 < maaku> rusty: one thing I wanted to do is modify the code to calculate the path to each block back, or random samplings thereof and do some curve fitting
21:48 < maaku> or maybe random to/from pairings until you get some reasonable statistical convergence
21:48 < rusty> maaku: sure... the code was originally copied from spv.c which is just a simple solver, and does that.
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22:53 < atgreen> jgarzik: moxie ldo/sto offsets are now 16 bits, resulting in much more compact code.  Toolchain is updated.  I'll send you the moxiebox patch in the AM.
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23:02 < gmaxwell> \O/
23:02 < gmaxwell> atgreen: do you know if anyone has looked into LLVM support for moxie?  It would be interesting to target moxie from rust.
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