--- Log opened Tue Dec 30 00:00:07 2014
00:00 < phantomcircuit> op_mul, the paper wallet thing actually makes sense, before you spend the funds the public key is a secret
00:00 < op_mul> phantomcircuit: "you expose the private key"
00:01 < phantomcircuit> im going to give him the benefit of the doubt here (which he doesn't deserve, but well why not)
00:01 < rusty> op_mul: well, you have to enter it onto some machine somewhere, I guess....
00:01 < midnightmagic> op_mul: are you torturing yourself by reading crazy peoples' writings again?
00:01 < phantomcircuit> rusty, presumably that machine is secure, since if it wasn't then you just lost control of the coins anyways :P
00:02 < op_mul> midnightmagic: you know I have little to no self control.
00:02 < rusty> phantomcircuit: if you trusted your machines, you wouldn't need a paper backup :)
00:02 < op_mul> rusty: if you want to be like that, you might as well harp on the fact that it was made in JavaScript.
00:03 < midnightmagic> don't let it eat you up eh
00:03 < op_mul> oh I'm not, tears of laughter.
00:04 < midnightmagic> :)
00:06 < op_mul> the best bit (sorry for the OT) is these two quotes juxtaposed. the first is from the book on the topic of RNGs, the second is from the CPP manual on a function used by the book to make private keys.
00:06 < op_mul> "Do not write your own code to create a random number or use a "simple" random number generator offered by your programming language."
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00:06 < op_mul> "It is the library implementation's selection of a generator that provides at least acceptable engine behavior for relatively casual, inexpert, and/or lightweight use."
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00:33 < op_mul> "he main bitcoin network, running the bitcoin P2P protocol, consists of between 7,000 to 10,000 nodes running various versions of the bitcoin reference client"
00:34 < gmaxwell> There are a lot more nodes than that, that count is just the IPv4 reachable ones.
00:34 < gmaxwell> probably closer to 80,000 though precise counting isn't possible.
00:35 < adlai> how'd you make that estimate?
00:35 < op_mul> that's close to my estimate based on the number of incoming peers on my nodes.
00:35 < gmaxwell> adlai: average number of connections per listening node, times the number of listening nodes, divided by the out degree of a node.
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00:36 < phantomcircuit> adlai, ~6500 public nodes, averaging ~100 connections each, (100/8) * 6400 ~= 80-90k
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00:37 < adlai> is that a typo or intentionally 6500 - 100 ?
00:38 < gmaxwell> I was just using 8k nodes * 80 connections / 8 = 80k because it made the math thoughtless.
00:39 < phantomcircuit> heh
00:39 < phantomcircuit> adlai, it's all esitmates
00:39 < adlai> why do you divide by the out degree? are we counting connections?
00:39 < phantomcircuit> yes
00:39  * adlai tries deriving this formula to understand it
00:39 < op_mul> nodes make 8 outgoing connections always.
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00:40 < gmaxwell> adlai: if there are 8000 nodes, and each has 80 incoming connections there are 640000 incoming connections in total.
00:40 < gmaxwell> Each node that exists (regardless of it accepting inbound connections or not) makes 8 outgoing connections.
00:40 < gmaxwell> so there should be 640000 / 8 nodes in total.
00:40 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, well and actually there's a bunch of node types which make < 8 connections
00:41 < phantomcircuit> ie spv clients
00:41 < op_mul> ugh, what SPV clients do that.
00:41 < gmaxwell> yea, bitcoinj make 4 connections normally.
00:41 < phantomcircuit> so there's very likely 2-3x what we're calculating
00:41 < gmaxwell> You can just exclude them from the count, thats part of why I used 80. :)
00:41 < op_mul> max-connections=999999999999 for total security and instant transactions!
00:41 < gmaxwell> but this is pretty approximate, we don't know the average connection count (though we can look at single nodes and assume they're representative)
00:42 < op_mul> I haven't looked of late, but mine average around 60.
00:42 < adlai> makes sense, thanks for helping me there. so you could improve your estimate by estimating the breakdown of node types, knowing how many connections each type makes.
00:42 < gmaxwell> adlai: right, well I think the result is mostly bitcoinj == 4; others == 8 ... plus some noise from some crazy people who have run hacked up things to connect to many more which should be elimaitated by ignoring peers that are connecting to many things.
00:43 < gmaxwell> op_mul: yea, thats a bit hard to measure because it depends on how many nodes share your /16.
00:43 < gmaxwell> if you're in some residential broadband segment where there are a dozen other nodes, you're going to get fewer connections.
00:43 < op_mul> good point.
00:43  * adlai feels a little silly now for having told an interested but cautious friend last night that there were only about 7k copies of the blockchain
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00:44 < gmaxwell> adlai: yea, there are more than that. Though who knows how reliable any of those are. Many of them could be corrupted etc.
00:44 < adlai> well, SPV clients shouldn't count as full blockchain copies, but there could easily be plenty of full nodes that just aren't publicly listening.
00:44 < gmaxwell> it's shocking how unreliable random people's computers are. We see constant reports of machines that corrupt their block data in #bitcoin and #p2pool
00:44 < adlai> could easily be / are
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00:46 < op_mul> gmaxwell: I guess we are the first people doing massive redundant computing with a way of detecting it
00:47 < gmaxwell> yea, I'd probably give a hard lower bound on the number of complete and correct copies of the blockchain in existance at 10k and an upper bound probably about 200k.
00:48 < gmaxwell> and with perhaps 90% of my confidence between 60 and 100k.
00:49 < op_mul> ... 60?
00:49 < op_mul> I must have 10 good copies just sitting around in my house.
00:49 < op_mul> oh 60 thousand.
00:49  * op_mul hides from the shame 
00:49 < adlai> five core developers + satoshi, 10 copies per house!
00:51 < gmaxwell> op_mul: I expect most of those copies are not current.
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00:52 < gmaxwell> I have 4 complete copies, plus who knows many out of date ones ones. I have three more machines synching the block chain right now... doing repeated resync tests of 0.10.
00:54 < op_mul> you're right. my nodes all have pruned copies, my minnowboard max has one full copy and the odroid has another. rest of the copies would be stale to some extent.
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00:55 < midnightmagic> i have 5 complete copied in various states; along with a handful more nodes out scattered around the continent
00:56 < midnightmagic> (various states being "this one was alive to hear those orphans, and that one didn't")
00:56 < op_mul> (I highly suggest the minnowboard max if you ever need more toys)
00:57 < op_mul> wonder if there's any cope of the block chain that has been running since 2009.
00:57 < gmaxwell> oh neat: http://www.amazon.com/Seagate-ST8000AS0002-20PK-ARCHIVE-128MB-3-5IN/dp/B00QPMRIFM  nearline storage cost now down to. $33.25/TB.
00:57 < adlai> has there been any thought on using a proof-of-retrievability (the one I read about is Permacoin) to ensure that the network maintains >N complete blockchains?
00:57 < adlai> (so that pruning can be a default behavior)
00:57 < op_mul> adlai: that's harder than it sounds due to the sybil problem.
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00:58 < op_mul> a node can just fetch a block from a peer if you try to use that as proof.
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00:58 < gmaxwell> adlai: doesn't seem very interesting in general. The Permacoin approach is vulnerable to the CSPRNG attack too which is a bit unfortunate but might not matter for what you want.
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00:59 < gmaxwell> and just requiring a miner to have the blocks doesn't mean he'll actually tell anyone else about them.
00:59 < gmaxwell> (other than what he must leak in his proofs)
00:59 < maaku> gmaxwell: what am I looking at? I see "1 new from $5,320.00"
00:59 < gmaxwell> maaku: 20 8TB hard drives.
00:59 < maaku> ah
00:59 < gmaxwell> maaku: in other words $266 each in Q20.
00:59 < op_mul> gmaxwell: if you want to buy that, you have too much toy money.
01:00 < maaku> nice
01:00 < maaku> op_mul: eh, i'm scrounging together a 24-disk nas
01:00 < gmaxwell> op_mul: well they're just out, I expect they'll be on newegg for $10 more in q1 in a couple weeks.
01:00 < midnightmagic> i'd be leery of homogeneous drives after that 12-drive failure I had
01:00 < maaku> if you want to buy that you're probably a hoarder :P
01:01 < op_mul> gmaxwell: wouldn't this be a lot more fun for the dollar? http://www.minnowboard.org/meet-minnowboard-max/
01:01 < gmaxwell> op_mul: I dunno, navspark looked a lot of fun per dollar.
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01:02 < op_mul> gmaxwell: true. do you own a box of them yet?
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01:02 < gmaxwell> probably the most fun per dollar electronics is a $0.01 RGB LED.
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01:03 < gmaxwell> op_mul: no, not yet, they were not generally purchasable for a while when I wanted to buy one.  I'm hoping to hear from you that you figured out how to get all the toolchain for them setup so you could just tell me and I don't have to worry about that.
01:03 < op_mul> gmaxwell: I invented a new bit of kit with the navspark actually. you know warw alking for wifi? I gave geiger war walking a go. results were predictably boring. all down in the noise floor.
01:03 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, are those 8TB hdds? o.o
01:04 < gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: _yes_
01:04  * maaku sets out to build a $83k 4k resolution led tv
01:04 < gmaxwell> maaku: lol
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01:05 < gmaxwell> op_mul: oh wow, thats a really neat idea. The problem is your integration time will be too low. You need to put it on a stick you can stick in the ground and leave for a day at a time to collect data.
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01:05 < midnightmagic> op_mul: where did you get the geiger counter, how did you hook it up, does it detect all the interesting forms of ionizing radiation, and how much did it cost?
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01:06 < midnightmagic> op_mul: I've wanted to install an auto-uploading car-based radiation counter + gps stamper for years but all the electronic-output devices I've seen are in the $500 range which seems excessive
01:09 < op_mul> midnightmagic: I'm using one of these (though I have a better one now) and a horrible power supply I made from things I had lying about. it's a beta + gamma detector.  http://gstube.com/data/2398/
01:11 < midnightmagic> what the hell, $24?!
01:12 < op_mul> I paid like, 8 USD. shop around. remember that's just the tube, but the supporting electronics aren't very hard.
01:12 < midnightmagic> did you verify it against a known source?
01:13 < midnightmagic> woops. -wizards. sorry for topic skew
01:14 < op_mul> no, but the numbers seem sane enough for background radiation. I have no desire to go messing about with radioisotopes just for safety / legality. the only reason I wanted to play with them in the first place was for a RNG.
01:14 < op_mul> as an RNG it works just fine. it's dog slow. you can make a bitcoin private key in a few minutes.
01:15 < phantomcircuit> op_mul, you can purchase point sources of various isotopes online for tens of dollars
01:16 < phantomcircuit> they're so small as to be not dangerous in any meaningful way
01:16 < phantomcircuit> (just dont push them into your eyeball)
01:17 < op_mul> breathing or ingesting them is more the worry. I'm anxious enough without maybe having alpha emitters lurking around my kitchen table.
01:18 < phantomcircuit> op_mul, then get a co-60 point source
01:21 < phantomcircuit> op_mul, https://unitednuclear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2_5&products_id=819
01:21 < phantomcircuit> loverly gamma only sources
01:23 < midnightmagic> i would love a hunk of uranium ore on a bookshelf.
01:23 < op_mul> phantomcircuit: first of all I'm not in the US, even if I was mail order radioisotopes is a sentence that just sounds totally wrong
01:25 < phantomcircuit> op_mul, shrug, it's entirely legal
01:25 < phantomcircuit> they're really small
01:25 < phantomcircuit> the amount you'd have to order for it to be dangerous to anybody would set off all kinds of alarms
01:26 < phantomcircuit> otoh some idiot kid tried to build a fission reactor in his backyard that one time...
01:27 < gmaxwell> midnightmagic: not quite $8+$parts but also less than $500: http://www.gqelectronicsllc.com/comersus/store/comersus_viewItem.asp?idProduct=4579
01:27 < midnightmagic> Ooo nice.
01:27 < op_mul> great. next time I see some fool writing terrible bitcoin code I'm going to be thinking "at least they aren't messing with radioisotopes"
01:27 < midnightmagic> hehe
01:28 < op_mul> gmaxwell: building one is more fun.
01:30 < op_mul> good idea with the screen though. that'd be a good addition.
01:31 < gmaxwell> op_mul: wrt samples, you could just get a lantern mantle.
01:35 < op_mul> gmaxwell: I was going to go for thrift store 70s plates actually.
01:35 < op_mul> er earlier than that. whenever the stupid orange color was in fashion.
01:37 < gmaxwell> well now that you've got the working detector you can go scope out indigivual plates.
01:39 < op_mul> yup.
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01:46 < midnightmagic> thorium lantern mantles can still be had. i used to have some, don't know where they went.
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03:22 < rusty> maaku: OK, the bad news is that the simple store-incremental-previous-proof scheme sucks for the "block 1M to block 1M-150" test.  Which is not unexpected.  But that's not really what you need, since we can prove to any prior block, which should be fine.
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06:52 < maaku> rusty: "prove to any prior block" -- not sure that's what we want. in the sidechain case at least proving back ~150 blocks is the most common use case
06:53 < maaku> maybe I'm misunderstanding?
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11:12 < adam3us> hmm so i've been trying various attempts to better the IBE address solution to scanning last few days, and one approach is to make smaller encrypted addresses.  i think i made some progress on that topic.
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11:14 < adam3us> if elgamal encrypt is (A,B)=(kG,M+kQ) and decrypt is M=B-dA
11:14 < adam3us> then the ciphertext is 2x32=64bytes at 256-bit EC curve sizes.
11:15 < adam3us> so instead for small msgs eg in (0,2^16), one could instead compute
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11:25 < adam3us> call M'=(0,2^16) and M'=M mod 2^16 and M=M"||M' then find k st kG=kQ-M' mod 2^16, then M=kQ-kG (and M mod 2^16==M') and you can send A alone because B=A.  decrypt is M'=A-dA mod 2^16.
11:27 < adam3us> so the msg might be M
11:27 < adam3us> so the msg might be M
11:28 < adam3us> (gah ' next to enter) so the msg might be M'==0 means msg is for me, and anything else means ignore.  then that has a 2^-16 false positive rate
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11:40 < gmaxwell> I'm not following here.  So in the existing solution the address encodes two points P1, P2,   sender picks a nonce K,  and sets their scriptPubkey to P1 + H(kP2)G  and includes kG in the transaction.
11:40 < gmaxwell> so the overhead is |kG|, or about 33 bytes.
11:42 < adam3us> gmaxwell: yeah its not smaller but its a different use, for something compact for scanning (and info theoretically secure privacy tho that doesnt help much give rest of leaks)
11:44 < tacotime> ehm... is this for stealth addresses or a bip32 variant?
11:44 < gmaxwell> So are you suggesting adding a P3 to the pubkey and 33 bytes for a elgamal test?
11:45 < gmaxwell> tacotime: it's for reusable addresses which aren't a lie, the stealth address construction just ends up with all the users giving their scanning keys to foochain.info.
11:45 < adam3us> gmaxwell: probably confusing because i'm not really saying much, other than hey look a single key way to encrypt a small msg with an intentional false positive
11:46 < gmaxwell> tacotime: so he's trying to find a scheme where someone can scan on your behalf without totally giving away all the address linkages.
11:46 < tacotime> gmaxwell: right, that's how mymonero.com is setup and it's less than ideal. but without it we currently have no easy way for anyone to use monero, and we're looking at different mtds in the future.
11:46 < tacotime> ah, i see. that'd be super useful for us.
11:47 < gmaxwell> tacotime: well this was talked about in here previously. We had a scheme that allowed per-block (group) delegation, e.g. where you could have someone scan for you but only for the block you asked them for, but it had high overhead, among other problems.
11:47 < adam3us> gmaxwell: well (to explain further) its all confusing to me too at present but i was trying to meet in the middle with a new tack: use the bloom filter of the block, but in a way where you cant detect presence without a private key.  (kind of private key bloom filter!)
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11:48 < adam3us> gmaxwell: sorry public key bloom filter.  not working out for me so well this far. but one part of it was to see if one can get smaller, like domain preserving smaller, public key encrypted messages with tunable false positive rates.
11:49 < tacotime> well, if it just involves appending some extra data to tx we could trial it on our testnet. i think our serialized tx structure allows for an extra 256 bytes to be appended of whatever.
11:49 < gmaxwell> adam3us: I had found a way to do private testing but it ended sending as much data as there were addresses in the block, so no gain.
11:51 < adam3us> gmaxwell: yes but this time i was thinking download the block bloom, and test it yourself.  kind of hard.  other strand is to find even smaller public key encryption that is bloom filter like in its output (1 bit that is either maybe, or no)
11:54 < adam3us> gmaxwell: the line of investigation was is there a public key algorithm or variant of it that can allow the sender to decrypt as well as the recipient such that you can massage the ciphertext so its mostly 0s and then only send the trailing bit (without a 2^240 brute force)
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11:54 < gmaxwell> adam3us: oh thats a cute idea. Sure, even take the original reusable address scheme.  pay=P1 + H(kP2)G     you give the server P2 and not P1.  and for each pubkey output point P it computes T_n = P_n - H(kP2)G    and puts the T_n in a bloom filter.
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11:58 < adam3us> gmaxwell: would that work? i think you're also still on the outsource the scan track, i am on a new track of have miners make a committed bloom filter of the block, and download that for all blocks and scan for yourself with your private key.
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11:59 < gmaxwell> tacotime: I guess its "nice" to see confirmation of how I expected that functionality would turn out in practice. ... kinda surprised to see that running, seems like a huge subpoena magnet.
12:00 < gmaxwell> adam3us: ah, now I follow you. Yes, I was still on an outsource the scan track.  Yes it would work, but OTOH it's linkable by any scanner who's also heard of your address.
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12:02 < gmaxwell> it's also linkable over time (e.g. with reuse) so probably not that useful.
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12:03 < tacotime> gmaxwell: maybe someday, if people actually use monero for anything other than speculating. we aren't really even applicable to openbazaar until we implement a SSS-style protocol for threshold signatures.
12:04 < gmaxwell> tacotime: your cryptosystem directly supports threshold signatures.
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12:04 < tacotime> right, but i don't know of an available implementation, and we're kinda pressed right now to even get our db working.
12:05 < gmaxwell> it just needs interactive setup to establish the keys for anything other than N of M where N==M.
12:05 < tacotime> i wanted to use the scheme described here: http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/3-540-47719-5_33
12:06 < tacotime> but i don't trust myself to implement the pure crypto i guess, and i'm time limited by the more boring contract work i have to do to survive.
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12:07 < tacotime> admittedly i haven't read your/andytoshi's proposal closely, is it a big improvement?
12:08 < gmaxwell> tacotime: IIRC that paper requires a trusted dealer.
12:08 < tacotime> there's a section that described setup with a non-trusted dealer. hum, i had a copy of it somewhere.
12:08 < adam3us> gmaxwell: in principle you might even be able to private scan via boolean AND if it works out. you'd need an efficient way to setup the bloom filter for all possible ciphertexts in a sparse ciphertext encoding.  i think sparse ciphertext could be engineered from non-sparse.
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12:09 < adam3us> gmaxwell: eg c'=f(H(1,Q,m)||H(2,Q,m)||...)
12:10 < tacotime> oh, no, i'm thinking sig generation. yeah, it looks like initial setup needs a dealer.
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12:10 < adam3us> gmaxwell: but being able to insta-populate the sparse ciphertext bloom filter is going to be tough.  the defence is its too large to brute force.
12:10 < tacotime> but 2.4 talks about how to do a distributed setup
12:11 < adam3us> gmaxwell: so the attacker cant enumerate all to distinguish
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12:11 < tacotime> "Each player Pi chooses ri, r'i E Zq at random and verifiably shares (ri, r'i) acting as the dealer according to Pederson's VSS described above."
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12:11 < gmaxwell> tacotime: there is a much easier scheme.
12:11 < tacotime> Is that the one described in brs.pdf?
12:12 < tacotime> i'll have to read it more closely.
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15:17 < rusty2> Guest87632: sorry, it was a brain fart.  OK, so, average 382 hashes to get back 150, vs 474 back to genesis, which is really bad.
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15:52 < danneu> jesus
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16:29 < rusty> Woah, I found the perfect image for sidechains: http://www.vitacost.com/Images/Products/1000/Momma/Momma-Toddler-Soft-Fork-Orange-044677710176.jpg
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16:33 < op_mul> rusty: that has got to be the least effective fork ever.
16:34 < rusty> op_mul: but who could oppose such a soft fork?  It's BPA free and it clearly says it's going to be 6 months + before deployment.
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16:34 < rusty> op_mul: plus, it's "extendable"!  It's the soft fork to end all soft forks :)
16:35 < adam3us> LOL
16:35 < op_mul> I'd call it a spoof. it's more spoon than fork.
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16:38 < rusty> op_mul: True, but there are enough spoof bitcoin projects in the world already...
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20:30 < rusty> gmaxwell: I'm having a brain fade.  What was the term you used for returning bitcoins from a sidechain to the main chain?
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23:02 < op_mul> I have a horrible feeling that stealth addresses are becoming a "standard" without any of the interesting stuff added to them. we'll probably end up with centralised, no payment ID mode ones for good :(
23:05 < gmaxwell> seems unlikely. Due to complete tonedefness they've been given an intentionally 'edgy' name that leave most wallets actively unwilling to implement them.
23:06 < gmaxwell> it's just as well, since the tech needs to be stronger to not have them be a net-negative for user privacy all things considered.
23:11 < op_mul> that comment came from a reddit post talking about a new service "supporting" them.
23:17 < op_mul> turns out it was just another scary "manually manage your private keys in a browser with javascript" thing.
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--- Log closed Wed Dec 31 00:00:08 2014