--- Log opened Mon Jan 12 00:00:21 2015
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06:22 < atgreen> I just hacked moxiebox to optionally record basic block counts for use with gprof: http://ur1.ca/jevjn
06:22 < atgreen> emitting call graph info should be easy as well.  I'll submit patch tonight.
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06:46 < wumpus> atgreen: nice!
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06:59 < nsh> atgreen<plus><plus>
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11:07 < kanzure> seems dangerous to ask exchanges to rely on a third party for listunspents
11:11 < justanotheruser> welll, do you trust the third party the exchange is trusting with your money? Because they can pretty easily take it if they aren't verifying the utxo themselves :P
11:11 < kanzure> and the transactin seems to be created by the remote server essentially
11:11 < kanzure> https://medium.com/@bendavenport/no-sleep-till-multi-sig-7db367998bc7
11:11 < kanzure> bendavenport: they were okay with this?
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11:15 < kanzure> justanotheruser: yeah, that's my understanding..
11:15 < kanzure> *transaction
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11:33 < kanzure> justanotheruser: i suppose one possible defense is if the change address is not a value returned by the api.
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12:04 < kanzure> hmm https://github.com/BitGo/BitGoJS/blob/3b72ab19f6620f4ab11c21ab7e326de020f4d340/src/wallet.js#L73
12:06 < kanzure> so the attack is: return one very large unspent for listunspents from the remote api, return hack custom change address, will receive everything 'cept whatever the original withdrawal was for
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12:09 < phantomcircuit> kanzure, they're trusting the remote server to give them valid change addresses?
12:09 < phantomcircuit> wat
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12:10 < phantomcircuit> that kind of defeats the purpose of an hd wallet...
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14:03 < Eliel> phantomcircuit: well, at least it should be possible to verify the given address locally given that it's a deterministic process that creates them.
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14:38 < op_mul> Eliel: I bet they don't verify it though.
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14:54 < kanzure> op_mul: bitgojs does not seem to verify it. and i think they are using bitgojs (because what other clients do they have?).
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14:56 < op_mul> kanzure: yes, that's not a new flaw either sadly. other people have made similar mistakes in their clients where change addresses aren't validated.
14:57 < kanzure> go on?
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14:57 < kanzure> where did other implementations fetch from? i mean there can't be that many ways to get this wrong.
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15:01 < op_mul> I'm not going to disclose that.
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16:37 < atgreen> jgarzik: just sent you the gprof PR for your consideration
16:38 < jgarzik> atgreen, very nice :)
16:39 < jgarzik> I need to write a few demo smart contract thingies with moxiebox
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16:49 < nsh> any public notes on the moxiebox work?
16:49 <@gmaxwell> nsh: there is a github.
16:49 <@gmaxwell> nsh: https://github.com/jgarzik/moxiebox
16:49 < nsh> it's like watching you guys whisper about the apollo project in arcane jargon
16:50 < nsh> ty
16:50 < nsh> what's a hand-built memory-map and whose hand builds it?
16:51 < nsh> "From the sandbox's point of view, the application is running as an unpriv'd application with only the ability to access data within the hand-built memory map."
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16:51 < nsh> moxiebox-gdb is pretty cool
16:52 < nsh> i mean, to the extent that using gdb is pretty cool
16:52 < nsh> so in a better than having no debugger at all sense
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17:11 < atgreen> gdb is pretty capable these days.
17:12 <@gmaxwell> <3 gdb except that it's not so hard to crash.
17:12 < phantomcircuit> heh
17:13 < atgreen> nsh: arcane talk... I'm completely new to bitcoin so most of what I read here is jargon
17:13 < atgreen> I'm finally starting to understand _some_ of it.
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17:32 < atgreen> we used to have a tag line for gdb:  "GDB: The Best Debugger In The World... for debugging GDB"
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18:42 < petertodd> maaku: I implemented a pruning-capable MMR last night btw - wound up having each node commit to the # of leafs committed to by the node and figured out an implementation that has one set of rules for both perfect tree nodes and otherwise
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18:43 < petertodd> maaku: not done 100% yet, but it appears to make proving things like "is state V1 a predessesor to state V2?" fairly simple
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18:44 < petertodd> maaku: OTOH having # of values - basically as a summed value - introduces overhead in the hashing, and to a lesser extent, serialization
18:45 < petertodd> maaku: also a good sign: I spent ~2-3 hours writing the code, and it worked perfectly first try. Always a good sign IMO.
18:46 <@gmaxwell> petertodd: good sign? nah. if software works is usually only because the tests aren't comprehensive enough.
18:46 <@gmaxwell> :P
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18:47 < petertodd> gmaxwell: lol, yeah, it did pass tests without having to change the code :)
18:47 <@sipa> if software works from the first time, i've experimentally verified that it is results in it being written in python
18:48 <@sipa> and having some flaw that causes the tests to not run
18:48 < petertodd> sipa: heh, it is in Python :)
18:48 <@gmaxwell> yea, my first reflex when software works the first time is that the tests are just ineffective; so then I go add a bug.
18:49 < petertodd> in all honesty, it's early enough that when I say I "wrote the code" that's just the very initial stuff to get the structure of the tree correct as things are added to it
18:49 < petertodd> (which also included a bunch of work on paper to figure out the algorithm)
18:50 <@gmaxwell> I wonder if it's possible to design a bytecode which is optimal for mutation testing. E.g. where almost any change results in a change in behavior.
18:50 <@sipa> petertodd: of course, if you'd be using haskell, the code _would_ work from the first time (after fixing compilation errors)
18:51 < Eliel> sipa: with haskell, yes, that usually happens. The only exception is when you screw up the high level logic :P
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18:51 < petertodd> gmaxwell: haha, I'e got a few places in git history on this project where I added a unit test for some old, broken, behavior, then added a second commit to fix the behavior and change the unit tests :)
18:51 <@sipa> Eliel: see http://r6.ca/blog/20120708T122219Z.html
18:52 < petertodd> Eliel: I'm rather skeptical about people's faith in haskell - I find writing tests a necessary way to double-check your understanding of the high level logic from multiple angles
18:53 <@sipa> petertodd: and you're very right
18:53 <@sipa> petertodd: but read that link still
18:53 < kanzure> .title
18:53 < yoleaux> Confession of a Haskell Hacker
18:54 <@gmaxwell> it's easy for things to seem magical when everything is crap and the thing in question is slightly less so. :P
18:54 < petertodd> sipa: oh, I've read that one before - reminds me of dimensional analysis actually...
18:54 <@gmaxwell> Rust also is reported to have a fairly high "if it compiles, it's correct" factor.
18:55 < kanzure> i've been resorting to lots of random iteration and combinations in tests. and loops over tests of random combinations. (plus some depth-wise comprehensive iteration)
18:55 < petertodd> gmaxwell: writing something real in Rust is high on my priority list. Other than not using whitespace as syntax it looks pretty decent
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18:56 <@gmaxwell> I've certantly written C code that I couldn't tell you at all how it worked; I just stated what the solution looked like 'inductively' (E.g. in recursive form) and the program computed the function.
18:56 < Eliel> petertodd: of course. Haskell doesn't help unless the programmer knows what he's doing.
18:56 < kanzure> ah yes the "how are you going to be clever enough to debug it" c2 flamewar
18:57 < petertodd> Eliel: good languages are resistant to drunk programmers :)
18:57 <@gmaxwell> Eliel: see roconnor's post; "Worse yet, when I wrote the focus function, I actually had no idea how the function worked. I simply wrote a function that matched the required type"
18:57 < Eliel> however, in my experience, it's extremely difficulty to get anything even remotely resembling a working program with haskell in such a case :P
18:57 < kanzure> oh weird c2 doesn't have a page on "if you used max cleverness writing it then you aren't clever enough to debug or test it"
18:58 < petertodd> Eliel: and, there's actually a subtlety in that statement: part of being resistant to drunk programmers is being amenable to review by multiple people
18:58 <@sipa> Eliel: he knew perfectly what it was doing; just not how
18:58 < kanzure> it's mentioned here http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?OverDesign but meh
18:58 < kanzure> haha "OverDesign for correctness is easy. Make the code twice as simple as it needs to be."
18:58 < Eliel> gmaxwell: ... well, sipa beat me to it :)
18:58 <@sipa> Eliel: and that is awesome; a language that doesn't require you to care about the how
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19:00 < kanzure> oh weird the quote is only about debugging, not testing. hrm.
19:00 < sipa> in many cases, there are reasons why you do want to care about the how (like for example performance, or constant-time requirements, or ...), and ideally you're able to specify it when you do
19:04 <@gmaxwell> Thats one of the things that really killed me with python. Like the level of python skill to write a working python program is an order of magnitude lower than what it takes to write one that isn't 10x slower and 10x more memory consuming than a 'optimized' one. :(
19:05 < petertodd> gmaxwell: well, python is a language that gets very frequently used in cases where 1000x slower doesn't bother anyone...
19:05 <@gmaxwell> Resulting in me getting things like factors of >>1000 slower python code vs my C code. :( which basically kills any argument about "programer time is more valuable"
19:05 <@gmaxwell> well at least for me.
19:05 < sipa> if i care about performance at all, i won't use python
19:05  * nsh smiles
19:06 <@gmaxwell> Turns out if you make the constant factor big enough you _always_ care about performance.
19:06 < petertodd> sipa: somewhere I've got a python program that spits out math lookup tables from a 3d wireframe cube renderer I implemented on a 8-bit microprocessor :)
19:07 < petertodd> sipa: I cared a lot about performance there! just not in the palce with the python interpreter
19:07 < sipa> "This implementation is Graham's number times slower for small inputs, but is constant time instead of inverse-ackerman function"
19:07 < nsh> i view it more as an efficiently-didactic process versus an efficiently-algorithmic product
19:08 < nsh> but there's nothing particularly especial about python as a repl/fuxing about platform that can't be done in more algorithmically efficient languages with the relevant experience
19:08 <@gmaxwell> (Otherwise I'd suggest moving your computing to http://dmitry.gr/index.php?proj=07.+Linux+on+8bit&r=05.Projects )
19:08 < nsh> so it's six of one half a dozen to the other
19:08 < petertodd> sipa: fun project, as the thing was so damn slow with so little flash available that I had to write up the perspetive and rotation equations by hand and simplify/juggle them until it could all be done with a single lookup table
19:09  * nsh smiles
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19:10 < petertodd> nsh: helped get me a job too!
19:10 < nsh> neat \o/
19:11 < petertodd> nsh: yeah, they passed it around upper management apparently to convince them I knew enough math to do a tech job :)
19:12 < nsh> heheh
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19:12 < sipa> petertodd: so what did you study actually? is "fine arts degree" an actual degree?
19:13 < sipa> (by which i mean: to me, it sounds similar to "a science degree", which doesn't say what science you studied)
19:14 < petertodd> sipa: it's called "integrated media" at my school, but the curriculum is about half way between a straight up fine arts program and film school
19:15 < petertodd> sipa: quite heavy on acedemic theory about art, post-modern criticism, etc.
19:15 < sipa> i can't help wonder why you decide to study something like that :)
19:15 < kanzure> "well i'm already okay at computers"
19:15 < petertodd> kanzure: lol, kinda yeah
19:15 < kanzure> this plan backfired on me because i picked something that did not seem to have lots of content on the interwebs
19:16 < sipa> well, to be honest, i do wish i had taken electrical engineering (the department under which the cryptography research group is located) instead of computer science (where i didn't actually learn all that much useful)
19:16 < petertodd> my highschool had a comp-sci program that gave you something like 1.5yr - 2yr equiv of university level comp-sci, which I did, then quit that in the last year and took up ceramics/pottery - notably after a summer spent as a Perl programmer...
19:16 < kanzure> that was a good decision
19:17 <@gmaxwell> sipa: usually the answer to such questions is "her name was..."
19:17 < sipa> ?
19:17 < Luke-Jr> LOL
19:17 < sipa> ah!
19:17 <@gmaxwell> "i can't help wonder why you decide to study something like that"
19:17 < Luke-Jr> then kanzure had to step in and give him an alternative reason? :P
19:18 < petertodd> gmaxwell: lets just say meeting girls at art school has better odds :)
19:18 <@gmaxwell> (of course substuite prefered genders as relevant for the particular person)
19:19 < sipa> in high school there was an awful german teacher (who was actually called Fritz) in 5th/6th year, and there was one program which did not include german. the 8-hour-math-per-week one. result: half of the 8-hour-math people were really just there to avoid german. most of them reconsidered after a few months
19:20 < petertodd> sipa: haha
19:20 < Luke-Jr> @.@
19:20 < sipa> this teacher was also known for his very effective 'teaching' strategy; the christmas exam was near impossible, the end-of-year one was trivial
19:21 < sipa> result: everyone 'learned' a lot of german during the second semester from him
19:21 < petertodd> sipa: :/
19:22 < petertodd> sipa: all through artschool I was nearly 100% excellent teachers... boy was I in for a shock when I went into physics after :(
19:23 < petertodd> sipa: how the fuck can you teach a class if you're too shy to look at the students? (obvs answer: because you're a math major grad student)
19:24 < sipa> i have a headache and it's 4:24 am
19:24 < sipa> i am wondering whether i should go sleep instead
19:25 < petertodd> sipa: work on unit tests until you fall asleep :P
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19:52 < op_mul> sipa: yes. tired and a headache doesn't make good unit tests.
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