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04:07 < wumpus> <sipa> well, to be honest, i do wish i had taken electrical engineering (the department under which the cryptography research group is located) instead of computer science (where i didn't actually learn all that much useful)  <- same here, though the grass does always look greener at the other side. I think practically I made the right choice going for CS, but it's hardly the most interesting thing to study. A lot of it is too
04:07 < wumpus> much like fashion and delusions-of-the-day too little like science.
04:15 < maaku> too much benchmark-and-publish :\
04:16 < wumpus> and sometimes it looks like all the interesting work was already done in the 60-70's and we just ended up on some path, adapting along with the technology, cherry-picking old ideas here and there, eventually discarding the other possiblities as they're not economical to get to from here. There's so much software...
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04:19 < wumpus> maaku: yes - after all, it must be performant for current hardware and software, but the underlying assumptions change all the time due to small details shifting under you
04:21 < wumpus> sometimes I wish I had chosen something more grounded in physics and laws of nature instead of all the sand castles we're building on top. Then again, hey, at least now I have a job... :-)
04:22 < maaku> wumpus: Engineering Physics was the major I settled on -- best of both worlds :)
04:22 < wumpus> maaku: yep
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04:25 < kurzalevski> is there a way to get a -1 confirmation transaction on testnet in order to reproduce a case from production?
04:25 < wumpus> kurzalevski: that's a -dev question, I'm happy to help you there
04:26 < kurzalevski> damn, sorry
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04:41 < sneak> any miners want an off-chain bitcoin contract to include a specific mempool tx in the next block?
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04:56 < op_mul> gmaxwell: is there any value in somebody grinding RFC6979 outputs to get one with > n retries? I can't work out if the comment in sipa's library is asking for one, or just commenting that it would be interesting to find one.
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05:01 < op_mul> I've been looking for an excuse to attempt to strip some of the slow out of libsecp256k1 and that seems like a good excuse.
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05:03 < op_mul> by slow I mean hardening.
05:04 < wumpus> op_mul: for testing it'd be nice to find one
05:05 < sipa> if you find one, we have a problem
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05:05 < sipa> there is less than 1 in 2^127 chance for needing a retry, withna random nonce
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05:07 < wumpus> even bitcoin mining is bountyful by comparison :p
05:08 < op_mul> oh.
05:08 < op_mul> I didn't even work out how common they were, I just saw someone had their RFC6979 code have a limit of 1k retries. I assumed it was one in 2^32 or something based on that.
05:11 < wumpus> it compares the 256 bit result against >0 and <0xffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffbaaedce6af48a03bbfd25e8cd0364141
05:13 < wumpus> as for slow, IIRC the verification stuff only gets compiled in while compiling the tests
05:13 < op_mul> I meant more time-constant-ness.
05:15 < op_mul> here we go, this is the source of my mis-informed-ness regarding how likely retries are. obvious looking at it now, but I just assumed from the number of retries. https://github.com/trezor/trezor-crypto/blob/795579cbacb5e4bd072d7cef2a2638f1d44c2d0d/ecdsa.c#L282
05:18 < wumpus> that's a very safe margin
05:19 < wumpus> 1 in (2^127)^10000
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06:08 < petertodd> wumpus: having done comp-sci, physics, engineering, and fine art, I kinda agree - physics/engineering met the science side of things, and fine-art balanced it out. comp-sci is an awkward compromise in the middle
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06:10 < wumpus> petertodd: if only I could tell myself 16 years ago :P
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06:10  * nsh smiles
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06:13 < stonecoldpat> thats a problem with comp-sci, it is increasingly about pumping out programmers, who have little skill but programming, i've seen some undergraudates scared upon seeing a sigma symbol on a slide
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06:14 < stonecoldpat> and then at the phd levels, being used as cheap developers which is a shame
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06:15 < petertodd> wumpus: well, careful that's not a "grasss is greener" thing - the engineering interns I'd get to work with every summer at my last job were... interesting... even the ones in their final years
06:15 < instagibbs> stonecoldpat: which is funny because PhD students tend to be bad programmers. Just cheap ones that understand math :)
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06:16 < petertodd> instagibbs: an interesting question would be if there's more call for programmers with non-comp-sci focused math than there is with
06:17 < petertodd> instagibbs: e.g., are you more useful if you, say, get a physics degree and learn some comp-sci?
06:17 < instagibbs> there's certainly a huge market for such people yes
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06:17 < instagibbs> finance
06:17 < petertodd> yup!
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06:17 < instagibbs> source: many friends who did that after phd :D
06:17 < petertodd> instagibbs: hell, you can kinda argue I left physics to do finance :P
06:18 < wumpus> petertodd: well, one sample point, ASML, where I've worked, was big time looking for programmers with physics experience
06:18 < wumpus> petertodd: their problem was requiring them to write *C* :p
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06:18 < instagibbs> I for one did compsci straight through, and agree with assessment. It wasn't useless for me or anything, since I didn't grow up programming or anything, but I had to learn math in grad school for real
06:18 < stonecoldpat> petertodd: thats exactly a problem, people who study comp-sci lack another dimension of skills, so students from a physics/mathematics background have an advantage as they have more to offer
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06:18 < petertodd> wumpus: lol - requiring anyone to write C is insanity :)
06:19 < instagibbs> stonecoldpat: although they learn fortran and shit like that. I have to teach them better programming
06:19 < petertodd> wumpus: university of toronto has a combined physics/comp-sci program last I checked (IIRC technically I was in it!)
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06:19 < wumpus> petertodd: I was one of the few persons with a compsci and security background in the department where I worked, which was the heavily software-focused part
06:19 < petertodd> instagibbs: hey, don't hate on fortran! it's actually a half-decent language, or at least that's what upper management at my last job said - they used it in production...
06:20 < instagibbs> petertodd: My brother has been shamed into not using it anymore(economics)
06:20 < instagibbs> the old guard still all use it
06:20 < wumpus> petertodd: so it's not quite for lack at  demand of companies, I just think it's not so interesting anymore :)
06:20 < stonecoldpat> instagibbs: fortran! i've managed to avoid that so far
06:20 < instagibbs> physics, economics, etc still all use it
06:20 < petertodd> instagibbs: heh, I hear it's still has better optimization possibilities than pretty much any other language for certain types of problems, as expected, because of a lack of expressiveness :)
06:21 < instagibbs> I'm sure it's used for a reason :)
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06:22 < wumpus> petertodd: well for one they shot themselves in the foot with pointers and buffer overflows all the time - there was high pressure to generate efficient code directly from matlab, but that didn't work very well yet either
06:22 < wumpus> e.g. proprietary, crappy toolchain
06:23 < petertodd> wumpus: ugh, matlab... I remember having to deal with the crazy C and VHDL code it and and Simulink would output...
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06:23 < wumpus> there's *lots* of demand for doing efficient, parelelllized where possible, computation but without the burden of memory unsafeness
06:23 < instagibbs> it's a hack of a language
06:24 < instagibbs> If I could do it all over again, I wouldn't drop CS. I would just append something like physics onto my degree
06:24 < petertodd> wumpus: but sadly that entire field is lackign enough actually skilled programmers to build tools to make all that stuff possible :(
06:24 < wumpus> petertodd: yeah :( there was a preojct to push them in the direction of numpy scipy and friends instead
06:25 < instagibbs> (i did foreign languages as my 2nd concentration. While fun it's not very useful in US)
06:25 < petertodd> wumpus: yeah, just before I left there was a company decision to move to numpy/scipy wherever possible. I'm sure that's been semi-rejected, but at least they recognized the problem.
06:26 < petertodd> instagibbs: foreign languages is too specialized to make a good 2nd concentration I think
06:26 < wumpus> which is better than matlab, and a step forward, but doesn't support efficient compilation (without burdensome runtimes) either. But for most, not-entirely-performance-critical parts it's at least safer than writing in C, or exporting C from matlab.
06:26 < instagibbs> petertodd: well it had "nothing" to do with my major... that was kind of the point
06:26 < petertodd> instagibbs: (I mean, if it's going to be useless directly, better take a 2nd concentration that's general like philosophy)
06:27 < instagibbs> petertodd: oh I dunno, it's led to some great life experiences. And indirectly helped when I worked on Natural language processing
06:27 < petertodd> wumpus: well, the route to efficient compilation in numpy is to use cython :)
06:27 < petertodd> instagibbs: ah, well that's an edge case then! - my mom always told me to pay more attention to my french classes back in school because I might meet a nice french girl one day
06:28 < wumpus> petertodd: sure - but with a big custom build system, and a weird architecture (SPARC), integrating new tools wasn't so easy :)
06:28 < petertodd> instagibbs: only took me nearly 20 years to meet one who wasn't also 100% fluently bilingual :)
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06:29 < petertodd> wumpus: agreed, although cython is the easiest new tool in that case as it compiles directly to C using the python extensions API - not zero, but probably feasibel
06:30 < kanzure> (new?)
06:30 < petertodd> kanzure: I mean "new" for wumpu's crazy SPARC case :)
06:32 < kanzure> hmm petertodd does not use tab completion
06:32 < petertodd> ?
06:33 < instagibbs> wumpus <-
06:33 < petertodd> lolol, true :)
06:34 < petertodd> IRC is just one of many ways I communicate; can't get into the habit of using tab-completion on it and not others
06:34 < wumpus> petertodd: anyhow, all of that is just the same ideas, rehashed time after time again, reimplemented by new generations, without really going forward, so much focus on 'products', 'apis' and specific artifacts ... maybe it's true and I'm just getting too old for this
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06:36 < petertodd> wumpus: but you see, "products", "apis" etc. are pure tech constructs, they're in a big part human interface design, and our wetware and understanding of it doesn't change that fast
06:36 < petertodd> wumpus: *aren't pure tech
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06:37 < kanzure> jrayhawk once described biology like "... there is no source, the bytecode has multiple reentrent abstractions, is unstable and has a very low signal to noise ratio, the runtime is unbootstrappable, the execution is nondeterministic, it tries to randomly integrate and execute code from other computers... multiple reentrant and self-modifying abstractions. absolutely everything has subtle side effects."
06:37 < kanzure> you should all become molecular biologists
06:37 < petertodd> wumpus: not to say you're wrong... just that there isn't an easy way to push any of it forward - you'll always be limited by the necessity of creating solutions that 95% of the programmers out there understand, which means if you have some great idea, you may find you need to do more work on educational materials than actually implementing/developing it
06:37 < wumpus> petertodd: yes but they shift all the time. it's like having to re-learn English every year.
06:38 < wumpus> kanzure: that description makes it sounds really intruiging
06:38 < petertodd> wumpus: indeed, they shift horizontally in a bizzare random walk pattern, where periodically the worker ants get too far from the food source and starve :)
06:38 < kanzure> wumpus: it is quite intriguing. it is frustrating to work with but the results are pretty ridiculously overpowered (lifeforms).
06:39 < op_mul> petertodd: they get into loops, too. big spirals of death that they walk until they all starve and die.
06:39 < petertodd> kanzure: haha, reminds me, I cornered some unfortunate geneticist at a party recently - well actually she cornered me trying to learn about Bitcoin - and after an hour or too I finally felt I understood genetics well enough to grasp it :)
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06:39 < op_mul> petertodd: ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ant_mill
06:40 < petertodd> kanzure: that description is dead on
06:40 < kanzure> (most of the procedures are things like "perform these 20 steps and as long as the phase of the moon is right, it will probably work")
06:41 < petertodd> kanzure: I actually found it kinda took the magic away a bit, when it was explained to me how so much of how biology works is just eons of evolution micro-optimizing endless numbers of tiny little feedback loops
06:41 < kanzure> yeah it's just a misunderstood subfield of geology
06:41 < petertodd> lol
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06:41 < kanzure> bitcoin is quite similar with all sorts of wacky subtle side effects, actually
06:42 < wumpus> kanzure: yup
06:42 < petertodd> kanzure: heh, bitcoin reminds me of analog electronics :)
06:42 < wumpus> kanzure: it's crazy enough to keep me hooked on it
06:42 < kanzure> "which one of the other 10 million poorly-created proteins is causing this cell to crash and die?"
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06:43 < kanzure> of course, the majority of biology was learned first by inference, followed by experimental verification later... so that doesn't help...
06:43 < instagibbs> well it results in systems we dont really understand at all like the human brain
06:43 < petertodd> kanzure: more like "which one of the other 10 million utterly-whack proteins is causing this cell to not die?"
06:43 < kanzure> and each attempt at verification costs like $10k-$100k because nobody knows how to make cheap methods of interacting with cells
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06:44 < petertodd> haha, it really got me talking to this geneticist how horrid actually working with biology is - hell, she had recently quit the field to go into business management
06:44 < kanzure> one of my projects is a cheap open-source dna synthesizer http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/nucleic/fbi-diybio-dna-v1.pdf
06:44 < wumpus> instagibbs: we understand it a small bit, neurology is also interesting, though primitive
06:44 < Adlai> as "we" get better at growing tissues - first artificial meat, then entire organs... eventually we'll be growing brains as well
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06:45 < instagibbs> wumpus: I'm from the statistical learning field, so I guess it's my cynicism when compared to popsci articles about "artificial brains"
06:45 < wumpus> instagibbs: e.g. we look at these large correlations between signals on a >1mm resolution, and try to conclude something from it what happens on the neuron level
06:46 < wumpus> instagibbs: well my sister studies neurology so I'm not coming from popsci there
06:46 < kanzure> or as anselm levskaya says, "Those of you who have not done biology can't realize how primitive things still are. A CS analogy is that we're trying to reverse engineer a non-deterministic alien architecture from the future via a remote debugger over a noisy line that has no error correction and runs at a fraction of a millibaud, where every peek or poke costs hundreds to thousands of dollars. With the advent of high-throughput ...
06:46 < kanzure> ... sequencing we just figured out how to get noisy ROM/RAM dumps (genotype), but still have precious little ability to quickly interact with the biological systems under study (phenotype). Biology is much more like hacking and reverse engineering than it is like physics or mathematics. A working exploit is worth much more than general pontification. The transformative events in biology these days are the clever hacks that enable whole ...
06:46 < kanzure> ... new classes of fast experiments to be done: quick homologous recombination induced by CRISPR, optical interrogation of neural systems using light-sensitive ion channels, the development of adeno-associated viruses for rapid introduction of genetic material, etc. In the coming decades the combination of such clever hacks with cheaper automation and sensors will hopefully bring a flood of new data that will make a predictive, ...
06:46 < kanzure> ... quantitative science of biology possible."
06:46 < wumpus> instagibbs: but yes, of course it's blowed up extremely in the media
06:47 < wumpus> instagibbs: the only science for which that doesn't happen is CS, which is good, but also becase no one gives a shit :(
06:47 < kanzure> (although personally i don't think the data collection is that important. just new techniques and methods to inject code.)
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06:47 < Adlai> you don't know what to inject until you've read the fine source
06:48 < petertodd> kanzure: you know, it's funny how not-unlike biology is to astronomy in terms of the tools available for understanding what's actually going on
06:48 < kanzure> ah with astronomy you really can't probe at all i guess
06:48 < petertodd> kanzure: indeed, and in biology, the probes suck so much in many cases you might as well not be probing - biology is moving towards really heavy use of computer simulations to get around that problem, as astonomy has always done
06:49 < instagibbs> kanzure: probably not a good idea regardless. Don't want to give our presence away
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06:50 < kanzure> some attempts at probing have done pretty well, like here's visualization of whole-brain neural activity http://www.nature.com/nmeth/journal/v10/n5/fig_tab/nmeth.2434_SV4.html
06:50 < wumpus> kanzure: visualizing the activity is the easy part
06:50 < petertodd> wumpus: +1
06:50 < instagibbs> yep
06:50 < petertodd> wumpus: even knowing what you'r actually visualizing is non-trivial
06:50 < instagibbs> even if we somehow core dumped the activity
06:51 < wumpus> but making conclusions from that is hard, unless there is a clear localized issue, which are pretty much the exception
06:51 < kanzure> patch clamp is a good technique for dumping data neurophysiology state data
06:51 < kanzure> whoops, too many datas in that sentence
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06:52 < petertodd> kanzure: what do ethics boards think of using "patch clamps" on people? :)
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06:52 < instagibbs> from a learning perspective, we're really not sure how its done. neurons firing something something connections strengthening
06:52 < petertodd> instagibbs: it's telling how poorly we understand neural nets, let alone neurons...
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06:53 < instagibbs> petertodd: we're using backprop, which is almost surely false :P
06:53 < petertodd> instagibbs: exactly
06:53 < kanzure> petertodd: well they use patch clamp + microdialysis on mice with "brain windows" (glass or plastic ports into the skull), although i haven't seen this reported in human specimens yet
06:54 < instagibbs> there is modern neural network research that tries to be more "true" while also learning something
06:54 < wumpus> backprop is efficient to simulate, and gives reasonable results, but it was  never intended to mimic reality
06:54 < instagibbs> but they tend to be quite weak
06:55 < instagibbs> wumpus: it falls out of gradient descent, but it's quite telling that we have nothing that even comes close that makes more sense biologically
06:55 < wumpus> and not a good fit for our computers
06:55 < kanzure> we have a few things that try to be accurate emulators of biological neurons, like the poorly-named NEURON project
06:55 < petertodd> instagibbs: one issue with "weakness" there is that it may turn out that intelligence is a matter of having stupid amounts of highly-optimized custom circuitry rather than actual general learning capabilities
06:55 < kanzure> http://neuron.yale.edu/neuron/
06:56 < kanzure> petertodd: generally most brains across the animal kingdom are extremely similar
06:56 < instagibbs> petertodd: quite possibly. But even then we'd really like to copy that :)
06:56 < kanzure> petertodd: http://fennetic.net/irc/human_chimpanzee_brain_differences.png
06:56 < petertodd> kanzure: indeed, which gives you hundreds of millions of years of evolution to come up with a wide diversity of building blocks to patch together
06:57 < instagibbs> kanzure: most creatures are doing very similar things. aka we don't need to do 3SAT problems in our heads
06:57 < op_mul> it would be nice if human memory was more quantitative though.
06:57 < petertodd> did you know that trees have some of the most complex genomes out there? why? because they can't move, live a long time, and have a long evolutionary history, so there's genetic material for practically every situation
06:58 < kanzure> trees definitely move
06:58 < instagibbs> kanzure: only when you blink
06:58 < op_mul> isn't a lot of DNA simply unused? most between all animals today is the same, only a small portion varies from species to species.
06:58 < kanzure> non-variation does not mean non-use
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06:59 < petertodd> kanzure: nono, trees have evolved enormously powerful telekinesis - when you think they're moving they're actually moving the entire universe around them
06:59 < petertodd> op_mul: "unused"
06:59 < petertodd> op_mul: much of the so called "unused" DNA gets turned on in weird situations, is avilable for evolution, we're not sure yet, etc.
06:59 < op_mul> isn't some animals having vastly more DNA without any extra functionality a good indicator of that?
07:00 < kanzure> it is very hard to determine non-functionality of "extra" DNA
07:00 < kanzure> if you remove what you consider to be excess dna and the creature still functions in your lab, that still doesn't mean the dna was doing nothing
07:00 < petertodd> op_mul: there's also the concept in inter-DNA evolutionary competition, where certain fragments of DNA are more succesful at reproducing than others, potentially at the expense of the organisms overall evolutionary fitness
07:00 < wumpus> petertodd: yes so there is evolutionary learning/computation and neural learning/computation and both interact
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07:01 < petertodd> kanzure: for starters, in your lab does the creature ever get exposed to predators? lack of food? UV light? etc.
07:01 < wumpus> op_mul: but how do you judge the 'functionality' of animals? they may have evolved to cope with all kinds of situations that you can't easily enumerate
07:02 < kanzure> yes you are not going to be able blackbox enumerate the functionality of a million genes across a million different million-variable life histories
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07:03 < petertodd> wumpus: heck, look at how now it's well accepted that evolution is sufficiently evolved in humans that we change the genetics expressed in our children based on life experiences
07:03 < wumpus> a lot of those circumstances may never happen again, so the DNA may be burden, but if not it is prepared
07:04 < wumpus> ... and they call software a mess :-)
07:04 < kanzure> at least there's some resilience in cells
07:04 < petertodd> "Richard Dawkins demonstrates laryngeal nerve of the giraffe" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO1a1Ek-HD0
07:04 < op_mul> I can't remember even where I got this, but I was under the impression that they were just literally unexecuted branches left over, more related to the age of the species than anything else
07:04 < kanzure> considering their vast range of functions they mostly take care of htemselves
07:05 < kanzure> op_mul: it is hard to determine which things are definitely expressed and definitely not expressed
07:05 < wumpus> yes, the resilience is the nice part about biology. computer software is so fickle and breaks easily and consistently needs babysitting...
07:05 < petertodd> wumpus: OTOH, when it does work, it can work orders of magnitude better than biology ever could
07:06 < wumpus> petertodd: but on a laughable timescale, and consuming tons more energy
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07:06 < kanzure> this is one of my favorite techniques:
07:06 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/microfluidics/Ultrahigh-throughput%20screening%20in%20drop-based%20microfluidics%20for%20directed%20evolution%20-%202010.pdf
07:06 < kanzure> or more obviously i guess, http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/directed-evolution/Microfluidic%20cell%20sorter%20for%20use%20in%20developing%20red%20fluorescent%20proteins%20with%20improved%20photostability.pdf
07:06 < op_mul> kanzure: yeah. I'm out of my depth. I just wish we had cephalopod eyes not the ones we ended up with. no blind spot, better sensitivity, better lenses. what's not to love?
07:06 < petertodd> wumpus: depends on the problem! I'll bet you we use something like 7-9 orders of magnitude more energy to add two numbers together than a Intel CPU :)
07:07 < kanzure> since they are already capable of "taking care of themselves" (minus food you provide and a stable environment), you can just select members of each population to over time develop features more like you want
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07:08 < wumpus> petertodd: sure, good point.
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07:10 < petertodd> wumpus: equally though, it wouldn't that unexpected if it turns out that to have human intelligence you need a physical computational device made out of brain rather than silicon - it's still not clear what "computational density" the human brain works at, and the lower limits on it are apparently not that far from silicon
07:10 < wumpus> petertodd: we expend energy to build circuits that are very good at narrow, specialized tasks
07:11 < petertodd> wumpus: indeed, yet it's not clear at all what biology can actually do - maybe we could engineer scratch-built wetware that was just as good, if not better, than silicon circuits?
07:12 < kanzure> petertodd: at minimum we know from the comparative neuroanatomy between say chimpanzee brain and human brain that even brains that look quite similar may not be enough to generate human-similar cognitive ability
07:12 < wumpus> petertodd: I wouldn't be surprised either; maybe silicon versus carbon is just a 'process' with different tradeoffs
07:12 < petertodd> kanzure: indeed! human intelligence could easily be mostly a matter of programming
07:12 < kanzure> petertodd: i have been enjoying this paper recently on this topic (sort of) http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/ai/How%20hard%20is%20artificial%20intelligence%3f%20Evolutionary%20arguments%20and%20selection%20effects%20-%20Shulman%20-%20Bostrom.pdf
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07:13 < petertodd> wumpus: yup, and there's some unique stuff about carbon, like how you can create extremely thick - in the 3rd dimension - circuits that silicon planar processes have an exceptionally hard time doing. that's a density advantage that may be more important than the faster speed of silicon
07:14 < kanzure> also fun http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/brain-emulation-roadmap-report.pdf
07:14 < petertodd> estimates for how much "raw computational power" a single human brain has apparently go as high as "all the computers google has", just with way more parallelism and way less scalar speed
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07:14 < kanzure> those sorts of comparisons may turn out to be useless
07:15 < wumpus> petertodd: yes, they've tried a lot re: 3-dimensional circuits, but the heat production breaks it
07:15 < kanzure> the brain has lots of microcapillary structures with blood to move heat away from neurons and glial cells
07:15 < petertodd> wumpus: exactly! how do you get the heat out? it sure would be convenient if we could easily grow pipes everywhere :)
07:16 < wumpus> petertodd: hehe, yes all that plumbing in our body, it supposedly has reasons!
07:16 < petertodd> wumpus: like oxygen concentrations in the atmosphere only being ~20%
07:16 < kanzure> although heat does not seem to be the main constraint of other mammalian brain evolution, e.g. it's not enough to explain the differences that we observe in human brain ability
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07:17 < kanzure> here is an analysis of brain constraints that a mathematician did http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/Thermodynamic%20constraints%20on%20neural%20dimensions,%20firing%20rates,%20brain%20temperature%20and%20size.pdf
07:18 < wumpus> petertodd: "all the computers google has" involves a lot of parallelism too ;)
07:19 < petertodd> kanzure: I like how the computational demand estimates for the human brain span at least 14 orders of magnitude :)
07:19 <@gmaxwell> op_mul: we have tests in the library that test the retry logic in any case (by replacing the function with an intentionally broken one)
07:20 < kanzure> well at minimum we know i can do mental arithmetic... and we know the sensory bandwidth maximums (multiple number of receptors anywhere in the body times the number of bits each receptor can detect, and this places an upper bound on the amount of sensory input)
07:20 < kanzure> *multiply
07:20 < wumpus> petertodd: there have been times that they though the key to the puzzle was just parallelism and lots of connections, but looking at today's internet, and how it hasn't developed too many visible brain-like properties yet, I guess it needs more
07:21 < petertodd> wumpus: OTOH, that may still be a software problem, equally, the physical construction of the human brain may give relatively low latency for much of that parallelism that's hard to obtain otherwise
07:21 < kanzure> speaking of which, ralph merkle had some okay estimations of human brain computation
07:22 < wumpus> petertodd: maybe, though neural connections have large amounts of latency compared to wire
07:25 < kanzure> i suspect one of the major differences is human salience or relevance encoding.. you don't see other creatures memorizing huge amounts of what-seems-to-be-at-the-time useless data. and then various selection effects on top of this to produce brains better at doing this.
07:26 < op_mul> gmaxwell: I was digging for excuses to mess with intentionally insecure signing, mainly.
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07:26 < petertodd> wumpus: well, so there's about a six order of magnitude difference between the speed of electron wave propagation and neuron action potential propagation, which if I'm correct would imply something like a six order of magnitude volumetric density increase to be equivalent - can you do that with neurons? I'm certainly not going to rule it out
07:28 < petertodd> wumpus: given we're talking about mostly planar silicon vs. mostly 3d brain, the brain can be something like ~1000x less dense than silicon, probably more like ~10000x to be competitive
07:28 < kanzure> (the existence and practice of "oral history" is a good example of how ridiculous human brains are. since we didn't have writing, we just figured out how to say words long enough to remember everything in recorded history. that's intense.)
07:29 < AdrianG> pop neurosci.
07:29 < petertodd> kanzure: man, you'd think god would have just given us a data port on the back of our heads or something
07:29 < AdrianG> the best time-waster for the internets
07:30 < op_mul> petertodd: we have one on the front and sides.
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07:30 < op_mul> encoding's a bit weird though
07:30 < petertodd> op_mul: lol
07:30 < AdrianG> we have a massive dataport.
07:31 < petertodd> AdrianG: yeah, but it's hobbled with parsing layers that can't be turned off
07:31 < AdrianG> petertodd: spinal cord?
07:31 < petertodd> AdrianG: and because we're not Chameleons - let alone those fancy squids - we have no way of producing high speed data output for it
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07:32 < petertodd> AdrianG: hence the invention of paintings, sculpture, books...
07:32 < op_mul> IRC is just a brain-brain shim, with lots of overhead.
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07:33 < petertodd> op_mul: youtube is a brain-brain(s) shim
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07:34 < AdrianG> petertodd: the squid axon is first of all unmyelinated.
07:34 < AdrianG> it is just macroscopically huge, and easy to stick needles to.
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07:34 < wumpus> op_mul: but also very efficient, a few bytes of text can communicate a lot
07:35 < AdrianG> myelinated axon velocities are around an order of magnitude faster.
07:35 < AdrianG> if not more.
07:35 < petertodd> AdrianG: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OauXCp8l3QI
07:35 < wumpus> petertodd: yes, an 'out' dataport of similar bandwidth would be very useful
07:35 < AdrianG> petertodd: and?
07:35 < petertodd> oh, and octopus too! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgHjv7Cz34s
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07:36 < petertodd> AdrianG: that's your data-out port for visual bandwidth, to correspond to our high bandwidth data in port of eyes
07:36 < kanzure> unfortunately that's like cm^2 resolution
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07:38 < op_mul> octopus are smart enough that they'd find a better solution
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07:38 < petertodd> op_mul: if only they didn't live underwater - would have invented fire, and thus neurojacked LCD screens
07:39 < kanzure> petertodd: here you can see per-chromatophore resolution https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjToyA-iBug
07:39 < AdrianG> http://3blmedia.com/News/Health/Discovery-Quantum-Vibrations-Microtubules-Inside-Brain-Neurons-Corroborates
07:39 < AdrianG> . The recent discovery of warm temperature quantum vibrations in microtubules inside brain neurons by the research group led by Anirban Bandyopadhyay, PhD, at the National Institute of Material Sciences in Tsukuba, Japan (and now at MIT), corroborates the pair’s theory and suggests that EEG rhythms also derive from deeper level microtubule vibrations.
07:39 < AdrianG> the brain is a quantum machine to some extent, we are still figuring how much of it is.
07:39 < petertodd> kanzure: +!
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07:40 < AdrianG> kanzure: thats pretty cool.
07:40 < kanzure> plz no microtubule quantum souls
07:41 < kanzure> didn't i ban you anyway why are you here
07:41 < AdrianG> kanzure: i dont think they even imply such a thing.
07:41 < op_mul> petertodd: you really want to be a jellyfish rather than a octopus anyway. numerous eyes, but no brain. go figure that one out.
07:42 <@gmaxwell> op_mul: I wish we could grind out test vectors, alas. Infeasable.
07:42 < kanzure> gmaxwell: why is test vector grinding infeasible?
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07:44 < AdrianG> kanzure: orch-or is an objective collapse theory, they don't speculate about "souls", etc. it's just a theory to account for the fact that human thought is likely to be non-computable.
07:44 < op_mul> kanzure: in the case I was talking about the vector would be one in 2^127 ish. not likely I'd get that one.
07:45 < AdrianG> besides, we have tons of quantum processes inside our bodies/heads. vision, photosynthesis, nearly all enzymes(or maybe all?)
07:45 < AdrianG> why is it that brain somehow explicitly exempt.
07:46 < wumpus> kanzure: hmm how long will it take to grind 2^127 test vectors. And there's not even a block reward if you succeed :)
07:46 < kanzure> oh, all possible vectors in that space? ok
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07:48 < petertodd> wumpus: heh, something I was thinking about the other way, was how you kinda want any consensus-critical VM/scripting language to have only 16-bit at most arithmentic, so you can in fact do 100% coverage test vectors for the primitives
07:48 < petertodd> wumpus: hell, once you're doing 16-bit, might as well go all the way to 8-bit...
07:49 < wumpus> petertodd: hell yeah 8-bit, let's embed a 6502! we can emulate it on transistor level :)
07:49 < petertodd> wumpus: equally, the way EvalScript() was written is shit - should have been a set of individual functions, each with very tightly specified constraints on what part of the stack each function can change
07:49 < op_mul> wumpus: transistors? mechanical relays.
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07:50 < petertodd> wumpus: heck, the functions shouldn't touch the stack at all - they should take arguments, corresponding to items on the stack, fail if the stack isn't big enough, and return a tuple of new stack items
07:50 < wumpus> petertodd: but in all fairness, if you can't use modern cryptographic primitives efficiently it's kind of pointless
07:51 <@gmaxwell> kanzure: because the probablity of needing a retry is roughy 2^-128.
07:51 <@gmaxwell> oh op_mul answered, yea.
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07:51 < petertodd> wumpus: oh sure, but those opcodes can be the exception to 8-bit arithmetic :) for other stuff, no sense having the weird intermediary complexity of 32-bit as we have right now
07:52 < wumpus> petertodd: you could of course have a 8-bit processor with secp256k1 coprocessor, but it'd be kind of masochistic without clear gain (ie, you need a well-defined VM, it doesn't really matter that much how much bits the arithmetic is in)
07:52 <@gmaxwell> wumpus: 6502 is not as clean as moxie IMO. :P
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07:53 < petertodd> wumpus: see, for what script is used for, I suspect you either need ~8-bit numbers, or >128bit numbers, with not all that much in-between (equally, pretty easy to make >8bit OP_ADD macros from 8bit OP_ADDs
07:53 < petertodd> )
07:53 < wumpus> gmaxwell: hah yes far from, and it reacts funnily to undefined opcodes, ie, it can hang the whole system, cause semi-random behavior, and about 25% of the opcode space is undefined so it's lots of fun
07:54 < wumpus> gmaxwell: it's exactly what you don't want for consensus
07:54 < petertodd> wumpus: do a modified 6502 where every undefined op is changed to Halt And Catch Fire, just like bitcoin!
07:54 <@gmaxwell> well you really want them to be NOP for softforking. :P
07:55 < petertodd> gmaxwell: obviously we're going to get it right on day one
07:55 <@gmaxwell> well it's easy in software to get decode right; where you're not playing stupid games with don't care bits in mux trees.
07:55 < petertodd> gmaxwell: BTW have you noticed how script for PGP is the exact opposite case? you want nothing to be a NOP, because sig validation must always fail in old versions
07:56 < wumpus> petertodd: yes, carry chaining adds is easy, but with multiplications and further you'd quickly wish you'd had chosen something more compact. Not sure how many multiplications there are in consensus code though. Maybe the POW verification?
07:56 < wumpus> petertodd: (apart from the obvious secp256k1)
07:56 <@gmaxwell> petertodd: really want you want is the ability to feature test any feature; so that the pubkey can change its operation. If it wants that.
07:56 < petertodd> wumpus: exactly, I suspect there's hardly any modulo crypto - POW verification in future systems should be designed to be implementable with purely shifts in a well-defined way IMO
07:57 < wumpus> petertodd: most is bitwise arithmetic and integer comparisons
07:57 < petertodd> wumpus: doesn't have to be all that efficiently implementable, just defined nicely and clearly
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07:57 <@gmaxwell> wumpus: pow check divides, and wants a CLZ instruction.
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07:57 < wumpus> gmaxwell: right, ugh
07:58 < wumpus> clz is nice and easy though. division is not :(
07:59 < petertodd> wumpus: meh, you only need to implement it once in the VM language :) point of the VM itself is to be simple enough implementing it multiple times in different contexts is doable after all, so you want 100% coverage tests as much as possible
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08:02 < wumpus> it's division by a fixed value though?
08:02 < petertodd> wumpus: ?
08:03 < wumpus> well, division by a fixed value is optimizable, can be turned into a multiplication+shift
08:05 < petertodd> wumpus: ah, right, well, my point is regardless of how you need to do it, writing the code itself only needs to be done once, and PoW checks aren't done often enough to matter re: speed
08:05 <@gmaxwell> wumpus: 2^256 gets divided by the target, and then there is a simple threshold test.
08:06 < wumpus> petertodd: also true
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08:10 < petertodd> however, the other side of this discussion is if you are going to put your consensus rules into a VM for a system, how do you write the actual VM machine code? if you're compiling it from another language, the compiler risks becoming part of the consensus in a sense, so it'd be nice if the machine code was clear enough to write directly. (maybe with some assembler syntactical sugar)
08:10 < wumpus> gmaxwell: but that only happens at retargeting?
08:11 < petertodd> OTOH, another feasible option in a mined system is to do soft-forks by validating against v1 rules and v2 simultaneously, rejecting a block if either ruleset rejects, which means if the compiler accidentally changes something in the v2 rules everything still stays in consensus
08:11 < atgreen> petertodd: forgive me, because I'm new to this, but if everybody is running the same VM machine code, why does the compiler need to be part of the consensus?
08:11 < wumpus> petertodd: let's build it as TTL circuits :P
08:12 < petertodd> (once you have n different rulesets, drop the oldest and hope no-one gets hard-forked...)
08:12 < wumpus> petertodd: but yes, you'd have to deeply verify the compiled version of the VM implementation
08:12 < petertodd> atgreen: in an upgrade a compiler bug may mean the v2 machine code is unintentionally a hardfork
08:12 < petertodd> atgreen: it's only semi-indirectly part of the consensus
08:13 < petertodd> wumpus: I wonder if anyone has ever implemented even RC4 in TTL logic...
08:14 <@gmaxwell> wumpus: I suppose in theory it could be per-retarget only. We actually do this on every block in Bitcoin Core.
08:14 < wumpus> petertodd: yes I was about to say FPGA, but then realized the toolchain nightmare there is even worse than compilers.
08:15 <@gmaxwell> wumpus: e.g. instead of carrying forward a "effective work" uint256 with the headers; we call GetBlockProof on each one.
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08:15 < atgreen> petertodd: I guess I don't understand enough of this yet.  I always imagined signed VM binaries being distributed to deal with consensus. Is there a good primer book on BTC?
08:16 < petertodd> atgreen: that's a -dev question, not a -wizards question :)
08:16 <@gmaxwell> No, no good book.
08:17 < wumpus> there's a developer documentation on bitcoin.org, but that's aimed at using the system, nothing really aimed at consensus problems
08:17 < petertodd> atgreen: necessary but not sufficient is to read the consensus parts of the Bitcoin Core codebase
08:17 <@gmaxwell> atgreen: signed by whom? Conventional application of signing suggests that there is some authority that approves things, which would undermine bitcoin (security reduces to how attack resistant the authority is).
08:17 < petertodd> gmaxwell: signed by a chain of highly unlikely SHA256 partial hash collissions...
08:18 < wumpus> gmaxwell: i don't think that's still the case, unless I'm missing something, https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/pow.cpp#L88
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08:19 <@gmaxwell> wumpus: not there, main.cpp     pindexNew->nChainWork = (pindexNew->pprev ? pindexNew->pprev->nChainWork : 0) + GetBlockProof(*pindexNew);
08:20 < ajweiss> patch clamping in awake behaving mice is basically the state of the art
08:20 < ajweiss> it's moving into the monkey now
08:20 < kanzure> petertodd: i think a good first step would be "read all of the source code, read all of the bitcoin-development emails, read all of the bitcoin github issues, read all of the bitcoin-wizards logs, read all of the published papers (even the bad ones), and read most of the development subforum on bitcointalk" anything else?
08:20 < ajweiss> humans prolly will never happen, way too invasive
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08:21 < ajweiss> they are putting utah arrays for electrophysiology in humans now though
08:21 < petertodd> kanzure: it's notable "read the whitepaper" isn't on your list :)
08:21 < kanzure> i said papers!
08:21 < petertodd> heh
08:21 < kanzure> i suppose also reading other non-bitcoind source code would be useful
08:24 < kanzure> yeah i think deterministic builds would be useful, but you still wont know if v2 by a different compiler will produce the same output anyway (even if the output is deterministic w.r.t that new picked compiler)
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08:33 < wumpus> gmaxwell: right, don't know how I could have missed that ugly division in GetBlockProof
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13:41 < jtimon> old conversation but can't resist...
13:41 < jtimon> re: neural networks and learning: neural networks + genetic algorithms is a high level model of how "insticts" (the hardcoded circuits in the brain) evolve, the hard part is the online (within the live of an individual) learning, the strongest quality of humans as a species
13:41 < jtimon> re: unused genes, I think that is quite accepted, say and apple tree with 100x more genetic material than another apple tree...that's strong indication of unused genes. On the other hand is like having unused code that can become used (ie a mutuation in a "go to"). Some people say that can explain things like the  Cambrian explosion
13:41 < jtimon> here's a somewhat related video with a guy hacking genotypes without altering the fenotype (by using redundancies in the base triplets -> aminoacid codification): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2JGwCHWFvk
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13:42 < kanzure> i suspect that actual "instincts" are going to be a bit more nuanced than hardcoded in circuit topology. probably more like "gradients during development that tend to produce things that generate these signal processing results like x"..
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13:55 < jcorgan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baldwin_effect
13:57 < jcorgan> basically, if learned behavior is adaptive, *the ability to learn* is selected for
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14:01 < jcorgan> so over evolutionary times this provides strong feedback to develop behavioral learning capabilities that operate over the timeframe of an individual lifetime
14:01 < jcorgan> ("online learning")
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15:03 < ajweiss> WHAT IF ALL OF HUMANITY IS STUCK IN A LOCAL MAXIMA?!
15:05 < sipa> then the matrix happens
15:06 < ajweiss> but it's not positive semidefinite... fuck.
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15:07 < ajweiss> i thought i was going to get to do dot products in "space warped by someone" but all i ended up with was this stupid fpe
15:07 <@gmaxwell> "Neo; a description of the singular value decomposition in the spirit of a creation myth."
15:07 < ajweiss> all the beliefs are linearly dependent!?
15:08 < ajweiss> I WAS PROMISED A FULL RANK UNIVERSE
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15:09 < sipa> definitely not a degenerate one
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15:15 < ajweiss> that might actually be kinda fun, to do svds on religious texts
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15:48 <@gmaxwell> This is fun: https://github.com/kmcallister/launch-code
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16:35 < phantomcircuit> <ajweiss> [23:03:20] WHAT IF ALL OF HUMANITY IS STUCK IN A LOCAL MAXIMA?!
16:35 < phantomcircuit> what makes you think we aren't?
16:36 < kanzure> too ambiguous
16:36 <@gmaxwell> there are worse fates.
16:36 < kanzure> ambiguity is pretty rough
16:40 < sipa> well as long as we are _stuck_ in a local maximum, we're fine, right?
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16:42 < phantomcircuit> sipa, ha
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16:54 < ajweiss> nobody freak out.  everything's cool.  as long as we're here, we don't know there exists, and if we don't know there exists, we can't possibly know that there is better than here.  so as long as some library jockey doesn't show up and throw some physical approximation of simulated annealing at everything, it will all be OK.
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16:55 <@gmaxwell> "And this is how the vacuum collapse was started..."
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17:42 < Adlai> has there not yet been an implementation of coinswap?
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17:43 < op_mul> not sure there's even been any popular coinjoin ones. there's andytoshi's and the one in darkwallet. the latter probably gets the most use but I doubt it's a huge volume.
17:44 < Adlai> not coinjoin... https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=321228.0;all
17:45 < op_mul> I know, I was taking the popularity of coinjoin as a measure for how likely it was for the newer and less heard of coinswap.
17:45 < Adlai> blah i basically started reading at "coinjoin", sorry about that
17:46 < op_mul> not bothered
17:46 < Adlai> are you familiar with the protocol?
17:47 < Adlai> i'm trying to wrap my head around it. maybe do one manually on testnet, if somebody else is up for that
17:47 < Adlai> although i could do it with myself as well
17:47 < op_mul> I'm not really
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18:28 < jcorgan> last i heard discussed, coinswap was vulnerable to a malleability attack
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18:30 <@gmaxwell> This doesn't prevent you from using it or building software for it.
18:31 <@gmaxwell> Even given that, it's certantly more secure than just sending coins and hoping the other party does the right thing; which is the next alternative.
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18:31 <@gmaxwell> (or prevent you from using it on testnet with play money)
18:31 < nsh> ((all money is play money; some just take the rules very seriously))
18:32 <@gmaxwell> play-ier money then.
18:32  * nsh smiles
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18:49 < op_mul> gmaxwell: pretty sure we're going to need DarkerCoin with CoinSwap.
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19:54 < jcorgan> AA is going on in twitter about blockchain difficulty retargetting.  Seems to have never heard of sybil attacks.
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19:58 < gwillen> jcorgan: I see a bunch of stuff about how we could get in trouble if the difficulty drops a lot and slows the next retarget
19:58 < gwillen> what's he tweeted that bears on sybil attacks?
19:59 < jcorgan> he's worried about a sudden reduction in hash power just after a difficulty regtargeting, making the next 2016 blocks take a really long time.
20:00 < jcorgan> and proposes a temporary decrease in difficulty  in the consensus rules
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20:00 < jcorgan> but an attacker who controls your ISP can filter blocks to you, or set up himself as all 8 of your outbound connections
20:01 < maaku> jcorgan: haven't read the tweets, but there are safe ways to do that, e.g. a flag day
20:01 < jcorgan> then when you think the hashrate has decreased so much and you kick in a lower difficulty target, now they can send you whatever low difficulty blocks they want
20:02 < jcorgan> i think there were some altcoins that tried this and failed
20:03 < maaku> there are others (e.g. freicoin) which have had such a flag day with no ill effect
20:03 < maaku> other than that it is a one-off hard fork change and all that goes with that
20:03 < jcorgan> i'm not talking about how a hard fork would be easy or hard
20:04 < jcorgan> but about how that "emergency difficulty adjustment" algorithm is vulnerable to a Sybil attack
20:04 < kanzure> ah, you mean if you fool the person into thinking that a super low difficulty is appropriate
20:04 < jcorgan> exactly
20:05 < maaku> jcorgan: right, so don't use an emergency algorithm. Do an emergency one-time adjustment
20:05 < jcorgan> oic what u mean
20:06 < kanzure> also, the attack would be something like both fool the person and then get them to broadcast some transaction in your favor?
20:06 < jcorgan> or send a block with a tx to them that will get reorged out when they get normal connectivity again
20:07 < jcorgan> need to run, bbiab
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20:15 <@gmaxwell> jcorgan: yea, any of those things just fails. meanwhile "flag day" works fine: you have basically no risk of it being triggered when the network is really fine; not adding vulnerablities to 'fix' far out failures.
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22:48 < op_mul> gmaxwell: what's a flag day in this context?
22:49 < op_mul> it's sort of insane that the king of bitcoin knowledge doesn't know why there's adjustment periods at all. wonder how long it's going to take for him to dredge up some support to go and change it to adjustments every block.
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22:57 < op_mul> "
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23:08 < gwillen> op_mul: I think a flag day in this context would mean "we push out a new client that declares a changeover by fiat at a particular block height"
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23:12 < op_mul> weird.
23:15 < gwillen> op_mul: weird why?
23:16 < op_mul> never mind.
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23:40 <@gmaxwell> op_mul: the notion there is that no matter how strong the social contract is, ... it's not so strong that it prevents the system from being fixed when it's just not working.
23:40 <@gmaxwell> though really if you have to make a fix like that something deeper is probably wrong.
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23:42 < op_mul> I think it's a can of worms that should never be opened. it leads into "well we fixed that with a quick fork, why not this too?"
23:45 < op_mul> I can't remember the name of it, but there's a human state of mind that basically says you have a much higher chance of doing something you know is wrong if you've already broken the rule recently.
23:45 < op_mul> I got to work late, the day's already screwed I'll just bail after lunch and go get a beer. that sort of thing.
23:45 <@gmaxwell> sure sure; but if it's "systems worthless because its not working at all" vs "system's worthless because we're not confident the rules are set in stone"; the latter is better.
23:46 <@gmaxwell> the whole zomg hashrate might drop thing is some concern most people have when the first get up to speed with the system. but a factor of 2, 3, or 4 drop isn't a huge deal in terms of transaction clearance performance.
23:46 <@gmaxwell> and given power sensitivity spreads larger seems unlikely
23:48 < maaku> gmaxwell: that said I've personally seen (in an altcoin context) where a drop of ~4x led to a price decline which hurt mining profitability in a vicious cycle
23:49 < maaku> but it is far, far too early to be crying wolf
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--- Log closed Wed Jan 14 00:00:23 2015