--- Log opened Thu Jan 15 00:00:24 2015 00:09 -!- go1111111 [~go1111111@162.244.138.37] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:11 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@unaffiliated/wallet42] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:14 -!- vmatekole [~vmatekole@p5DC476AB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:19 -!- adam3us [~Adium@88-105-6-39.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:24 -!- adam3us [~Adium@88-105-6-39.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:29 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:37 -!- bramc [~bram@99-75-88-206.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 00:38 -!- NewLiberty_ [~NewLibert@76-255-129-88.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:44 -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:47 -!- coiner [~linker@115.79.55.177] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:47 -!- coiner [~linker@115.79.55.177] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:55 -!- kgk_ [~kgk@76.14.85.43] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 00:56 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@unaffiliated/wallet42] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:00 -!- vdo [~vdo@177.Red-88-0-21.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:03 -!- bepo|here [~bepo@fer68-1-78-229-8-151.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:05 -!- andy-logbot [~bitcoin--@wpsoftware.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:05 -!- bepo|here is now known as bepo|afk 01:05 -!- andy-logbot [~bitcoin--@wpsoftware.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:05 * andy-logbot is logging 01:13 -!- benten [~benten@unaffiliated/benten] has quit [Quit: ....] 01:16 < fluffypony> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/01/14/nsa_sorry_we_borked_nist_encryption_well_sorry_we_got_caught/ 01:16 -!- CoinMuncher [~jannes@178.132.211.90] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:38 -!- adam3us [~Adium@88-105-6-39.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:40 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:40 -!- dansmith_btc 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[~belcher-s@5ec397f4.skybroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:49 -!- belcher [~belcher-s@5ec397f4.skybroadband.com] has quit [Changing host] 02:49 -!- belcher [~belcher-s@unaffiliated/belcher] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:49 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@unaffiliated/wallet42] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:50 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@unaffiliated/wallet42] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:53 -!- siraj_ [~siraj@106.79.46.200] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:56 -!- siraj_ [~siraj@125.19.79.57] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:08 -!- siraj [~siraj@106.79.39.97] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:11 -!- siraj_ [~siraj@125.19.79.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:22 -!- c0rw1n [~c0rw1n@67.163-243-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:22 -!- c0rw1n [~c0rw1n@67.163-243-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:24 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@unaffiliated/wallet42] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:34 -!- siraj [~siraj@106.79.39.97] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:55 -!- siraj [~siraj@114.69.245.154] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:56 -!- hearn [~mike@84-75-198-85.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:56 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@179.26.152.113] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:59 -!- vmatekole [~vmatekole@p5DC476AB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 04:00 -!- vmatekole [~vmatekole@p5DC476AB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:04 -!- jgarzik [~jgarzik@unaffiliated/jgarzik] has quit [Quit: miami] 04:06 -!- midnightmagic [~midnightm@unaffiliated/midnightmagic] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:10 -!- midnightmagic [~midnightm@unaffiliated/midnightmagic] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:11 -!- cletus11 [~cletus11@99-172-47-87.lightspeed.tblltx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:16 -!- HarusameNyanko [~HarusameN@pl2125.nas815.n-hiroshima.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:17 < fluffypony> also this was an excellent talk: http://media.ccc.de/browse/congress/2014/31c3_-_6240_-_en_-_saal_g_-_201412271400_-_reproducible_builds_-_mike_perry_-_seth_schoen_-_hans_steiner.html#video 04:24 -!- NewLiberty_ [~NewLibert@2602:304:cff8:1580:90a8:3f0e:541b:bf58] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:28 -!- vdo [~vdo@177.Red-88-0-21.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:29 -!- vdo [~vdo@177.Red-88-0-21.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:31 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:36 -!- vdo [~vdo@177.Red-88-0-21.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:39 -!- Quanttek [~quassel@ip1f112539.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:44 -!- Quanttek [~quassel@ip1f112539.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:45 -!- Quanttek [~quassel@2a02:8108:d00:870:e23f:49ff:fe47:9364] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:52 -!- Quanttek 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[~vmatekole@p5DC476AB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:51 -!- vmatekole [~vmatekole@p5DC476AB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:56 -!- xeb_ [~xeb@wikipedia/nsh] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:56 -!- xeb_ [~xeb@wikipedia/nsh] has quit [Client Quit] 05:56 -!- cletus11 [~cletus11@99-172-47-87.lightspeed.tblltx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:00 -!- hashtag [~hashtag@cpe-98-157-219-44.ma.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:13 -!- coiner [~linker@115.79.55.177] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:14 -!- prodatalab [~prodatala@2601:3:9281:5280:6d28:7045:2fc:1598] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:18 -!- jps [~Jud@cpe-74-72-116-143.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:18 -!- zwischenzug [~zwischenz@207.Red-88-8-247.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:30 < op_mul> I've seen the topic of output selection come up a few times here, and the general answer is that there's no answer that's *ideal*. 06:31 < op_mul> I came up with a mildly novel attack against some forms out output selection (used by a few wallets), where the software just orders all UTXO by their age and then consumes them sequentially. 06:32 -!- drawingthesun [~drawingth@106-68-75-46.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:33 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@unaffiliated/wallet42] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:34 < op_mul> given two transactions, you can work out if they are maybe related or not just by the age of the outputs they consume. if a later transaction consumed outputs older than an earlier one, they aren't made by the same wallet. 06:34 -!- lnovy [~lnovy@2002:4d57:f055::1] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 06:35 -!- prodatalab [~prodatala@2601:3:9281:5280:6d28:7045:2fc:1598] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:35 < op_mul> only works if you have some other hints about the users software (human leaks, other features of a transaction that might reveal it), but a bit of fun none the less. 06:36 -!- drawingthesun [~drawingth@106-68-75-46.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:44 -!- drawingthesun [~drawingth@106-68-110-199.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:45 -!- drawingthesun [~drawingth@106-68-110-199.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:53 -!- hktud0 [wq@unaffiliated/fluffybunny] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:55 -!- hktud0 [wq@unaffiliated/fluffybunny] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:56 -!- vmatekol_ [~vmatekole@p5DC476AB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:02 -!- roconnor [~roconnor@e120-pool-d89a7e6d.brdbnd.voicenetwork.ca] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:09 < earlz> Would it be useful if teh block Nonce field was upgraded from 32bit to 64bit? 07:09 < earlz> There is extranonce, but it seems like a bit of a hack and requires recalculating the merkelhash and is generally more complicated 07:19 -!- deego [~user@unaffiliated/deego] has joined 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07:45 -!- coiner [~linker@118.68.182.141] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 07:46 -!- coiner [~linker@118.68.182.141] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:47 -!- coiner [~linker@118.68.182.141] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 07:48 -!- coiner [~linker@118.68.182.141] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:49 -!- coiner [~linker@118.68.182.141] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 07:49 -!- coiner [~linker@118.68.182.141] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:50 -!- coiner [~linker@118.68.182.141] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 07:53 -!- jps [~Jud@cpe-74-72-116-143.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: jps] 07:57 -!- nsh [~lol@2001:41d0:8:c2da::1337] has quit [Changing host] 07:57 -!- nsh [~lol@wikipedia/nsh] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:13 < kanzure> op_mul: i think there are ideal answers for output selection depending on the particular use... and i'd agree with you that it's unlikely that there's an ideal single solution that works across all possible uses. 08:14 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@212.27.195.111] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:14 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@212.27.195.111] has quit [Changing host] 08:14 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@unaffiliated/wallet42] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:14 -!- siraj [~siraj@125.19.79.57] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:15 * op_mul nods 08:15 < op_mul> I'd just never thought of it as a privacy risk before 08:21 -!- jps [~Jud@cpe-74-72-116-143.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:28 -!- adam3us [~Adium@88-105-6-39.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:30 < hearn> op_mul: i wrote an article on the topic some time ago: http://www.coindesk.com/merge-avoidance-privacy-bitcoin/ 08:30 < hearn> bitcoinj is one of the wallets that just works through utxos in age order, mostly 08:31 < hearn> the idea was to maximise priority so transactions could be free as often as possible, but of course that never really happened, free txns are pretty broken at the moment 08:31 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:32 -!- adam3us [~Adium@88-105-6-39.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:32 < op_mul> hearn: oh good to know 08:32 < hearn> i'd like to bring free txns back at some point because it's a big selling point for bitcoin, the difference between "tiny fee" and "free" psychologically is huge 08:32 < hearn> but it needs a bunch of changes 08:35 < op_mul> when does bitcoinj not use oldest first selection? 08:38 -!- adam3us [~Adium@88-105-6-39.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:45 -!- prodatalab [~prodatala@2601:3:9281:5280:6d28:7045:2fc:1598] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 08:46 -!- hashtag_ [~hashtag@cpe-98-157-219-44.ma.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:47 -!- hashtag [~hashtag@cpe-98-157-219-44.ma.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:50 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@179.26.152.113] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:15 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:16 -!- ryanxcharles [~ryanxchar@162-245-22-162.v250d.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:17 -!- tlrobinson [~tlrobinso@li603-192.members.linode.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:19 < justanotheruser> Given that we have a UTXO merkle tree in a block, is it possible for a thin client to pay to a think client without a server? It is pretty obvious how a full node could pay to a thin client and tell them which block and which branch the transaction is, or how a thin client could pay a full node without a server. Is there a way to do it where both the payer and the receiver are serverless thin clients? 09:24 -!- bendavenport [~bpd@64.124.157.148] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:34 -!- e1782d11df4c9914 [~e1782d11d@cpe-66-68-54-206.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:35 -!- nullbyte [~WW@cpe-66-68-54-206.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:35 -!- nullbyte [~WW@cpe-66-68-54-206.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Changing host] 09:35 -!- nullbyte [~WW@unaffiliated/loteriety] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:38 -!- fabianfabian [~fabianfab@D57D3095.static.ziggozakelijk.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:38 -!- fabianfabian [~fabianfab@D57D3095.static.ziggozakelijk.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 09:40 -!- prodatalab [~prodatala@c-174-63-157-21.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:40 -!- nullbyte [~WW@unaffiliated/loteriety] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:40 -!- prodatalab [~prodatala@c-174-63-157-21.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 09:41 -!- nullbyte [WW@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-bbhubdlspjirxnuh] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:41 -!- nullbyte [WW@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-bbhubdlspjirxnuh] has quit [Changing host] 09:41 -!- nullbyte [WW@unaffiliated/loteriety] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:41 -!- nullbyte [WW@unaffiliated/loteriety] has quit [Changing host] 09:41 -!- nullbyte [WW@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-bbhubdlspjirxnuh] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:47 < hearn> op_mul: it can be customised by the app 09:47 < hearn> op_mul: the default selector is pretty dumb though. we never implemented anything as complicated as satoshi's knapsack solver. 09:48 < hearn> my original plan was to investigate using general constraint solvers, but in the end people just ended up attaching a fee for every tx. the amounts are so small that it wasn't the lowest hanging fruit 09:48 < hearn> people have other concerns 09:48 -!- jb55 [~jb55@208.98.200.98] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:51 -!- zz_lnovy [~lnovy@2002:4d57:f055::1] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:51 -!- zz_lnovy is now known as lnovy 09:52 -!- samson2 [~samson_@180.183.164.139] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:52 -!- samson_ [~samson_@183.89.170.213] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:56 -!- tlrobinson [~tlrobinso@li603-192.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: tlrobinson] 09:59 -!- treehug88 [~treehug88@66.6.34.255] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:05 -!- sdaftuar [~sdaftuar@static-100-38-11-146.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:07 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:13 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:16 -!- jps [~Jud@cpe-74-72-116-143.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: jps] 10:21 -!- belcher [~belcher-s@5ec397f4.skybroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:21 -!- belcher [~belcher-s@5ec397f4.skybroadband.com] has quit [Changing host] 10:21 -!- belcher [~belcher-s@unaffiliated/belcher] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:22 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@unaffiliated/wallet42] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:27 -!- treehug8_ [~treehug88@66.6.34.255] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:28 -!- treehug8_ [~treehug88@66.6.34.255] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:29 -!- hearn [~mike@84-75-198-85.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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[~alexl@50-199-38-235-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:01 -!- shesek [~shesek@IGLD-84-228-192-195.inter.net.il] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:02 -!- nessence [~alexl@50-199-38-235-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:04 -!- shesek [~shesek@IGLD-84-228-11-89.inter.net.il] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:06 -!- jtimon [~quassel@108.pool85-59-62.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:06 -!- nessence_ [~alexl@50-199-38-235-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [] 13:07 -!- vmatekole [~vmatekole@f052090213.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:16 -!- shesek [~shesek@IGLD-84-228-11-89.inter.net.il] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:17 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@179.26.170.230] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:19 -!- belcher [~belcher-s@unaffiliated/belcher] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:23 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:26 -!- eslbaer [~eslbaer@p548A4073.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Bye] 13:32 -!- shesek [~shesek@IGLD-84-228-11-89.inter.net.il] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:34 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:51 -!- NomosOne [~NomosOne@pool-71-178-107-61.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:52 -!- execut3 [~shesek@IGLD-84-229-14-167.inter.net.il] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:55 -!- NomosOne [~NomosOne@pool-71-178-107-61.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:56 -!- shesek [~shesek@IGLD-84-228-11-89.inter.net.il] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:57 < nsh> does anyone have a proof-of-existence service that uses OP_RETURN yet? 13:57 -!- PaulCapestany [~PaulCapes@204.28.124.82] has quit [] 13:58 -!- PaulCapestany [~PaulCapes@204.28.124.82] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:59 -!- maraoz [~maraoz@43-161-16-190.fibertel.com.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:59 -!- cletus11 [~cletus11@99-172-47-87.lightspeed.tblltx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 14:00 -!- hashtag [~hashtag@cpe-98-157-219-44.ma.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:03 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@179.26.170.230] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:08 -!- jb55 [~jb55@208.98.200.98] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:09 -!- jb55 [~jb55@208.98.200.98] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:13 -!- jb55 [~jb55@208.98.200.98] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:23 -!- NomosOne [~NomosOne@pool-71-178-107-61.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:23 -!- NomosOne [~NomosOne@pool-71-178-107-61.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:28 -!- jb55 [~jb55@208.98.200.98] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:35 -!- HarusameNyanko [~HarusameN@pl2125.nas815.n-hiroshima.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:37 < justanotheruser> nsh: the first result for proof of existence does 14:39 < nsh> \o/ (sorry for lazyasking) 14:39 * nsh wonders if there's one that will host the file so it's google indexable too 14:42 -!- bit2017 [~linker@1.54.182.184] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:43 < justanotheruser> Hopefully we won't even be using op_return when sidechains come out :P 14:43 -!- jps_ [~Jud@cpe-74-72-116-143.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:43 -!- jps_ [~Jud@cpe-74-72-116-143.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 14:43 -!- DougieBot5000_ [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:43 -!- tromp_ [~tromp@ool-18be0b4d.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:43 -!- Emcy_ [~MC@cpc3-swan1-0-0-cust237.7-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:43 -!- Emcy_ [~MC@cpc3-swan1-0-0-cust237.7-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Changing host] 14:43 -!- Emcy_ [~MC@unaffiliated/mc1984] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:43 -!- jb55_ [~jb55@208.98.200.98] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:43 -!- c0rw1n_ [~c0rw1n@67.163-243-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has 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devrandom [~devrandom@gateway/tor-sasl/niftyzero1] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:34 -!- OneFixt_ is now known as OneFixt 16:40 -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:45 -!- fanquake [~anonymous@unaffiliated/fanquake] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:45 -!- Adlai [~Adlai@gateway/tor-sasl/adlai] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.0.1] 16:46 -!- fabianfa_ [~fabianfab@5ED168E7.cm-7-2b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: why] 16:54 -!- zooko [~user@c-75-70-204-109.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:54 -!- bendavenport [~bpd@64.124.157.148] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:58 -!- Dizzle [~Dizzle@cpe-72-182-36-12.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:59 < bramc> Really dumb question about SPV: Do blocks contain a link to a merkle root of all the transactions they process? 16:59 -!- coiner [~linker@1.54.182.184] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:00 -!- dgenr8 [~dgenr8@unaffiliated/dgenr8] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:00 < justanotheruser> bramc: yes, the merkle roots in the block header. 17:00 < bramc> justanotheruser, That's the merkle root of the new transactions for that particular block, correct? 17:00 < justanotheruser> yes, the tx in the block 17:01 < bramc> Oh okay, I remember there being discussion about there being a lack of merkle root, that must be for the set of all transactions so far 17:01 < justanotheruser> they may have been discussing a UTXO merkle tree 17:02 < bramc> Yes exactly 17:04 -!- ahmed_ [sid14086@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-yjeaqktcymyijsho] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:04 < bramc> Although it isn't obvious whether such an extension should include all txos or just the utxos 17:05 < justanotheruser> I don't think all the txos would be useful 17:07 -!- ryanxcharles [~ryanxchar@162-245-22-162.v250d.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:09 < bramc> Perhaps not, but it could resolve the wft if a client thinks it has a utxos and is rejected 17:11 < justanotheruser> not sure how it could do that 17:12 < justanotheruser> If it isn't in the utxo then it isn't in the utxo. If you spent it, your wallet should know that 17:13 < bramc> It could disambiguate between 'double spent' and 'never issued'. That might not matter though. 17:15 -!- NomosOne [~NomosOne@pool-71-178-107-61.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:18 -!- licnep [uid4387@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-yvxnmyrsrpqigcql] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:24 -!- bobke [~bobke@d54c6f5e8.access.telenet.be] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:25 -!- NomosOne [~NomosOne@pool-71-178-107-61.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:36 -!- Dizzle [~Dizzle@cpe-72-182-36-12.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:38 -!- jcluck is now known as cluckj 17:42 -!- NomosOne [~NomosOne@pool-71-178-107-61.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:45 -!- bramc [~bram@99-75-88-206.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 17:49 -!- nessence [~alexl@c-68-51-194-2.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:50 -!- siervo [uid49244@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dqkhbydolzmtycjx] has joined 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#bitcoin-wizards 20:15 -!- siraj_ [~siraj@125.19.79.57] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:17 -!- hashtag_ [~hashtag@CPE-69-23-213-3.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:17 -!- NewLiberty_ [~NewLibert@2602:304:cff8:1580:90a8:3f0e:541b:bf58] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:18 -!- NewLiberty_ is now known as NewLiberty 20:19 -!- siraj [~siraj@114.69.245.154] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:24 -!- EasyAt_ is now known as EasyAt 20:24 -!- EasyAt [~EasyAt@46.19.139.88] has quit [Changing host] 20:24 -!- EasyAt [~EasyAt@unaffiliated/easyat] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:26 -!- faraka [5512737e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.85.18.115.126] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:27 -!- shesek [~shesek@77.126.208.208] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:28 < faraka> is it possible to audit offchain transactions with non interactive zkp's on bitcoin's blockchain? 20:29 < faraka> it is difficult to track how much the exchange has received and withdrawn and validate those addresses 20:29 < faraka> i can't wrap my head around how to do it. 20:30 < bramc> faraka, Not sure what it is you'd like to audit (not like I have a good answer in any case) 20:31 < faraka> total balance 20:31 < bramc> An exchange can straightforwardly prove that they have a certain amount of balance in reserve just by moving it around. That doesn't stop them from lieing about how much they've told people they have in deposits though. 20:31 < faraka> proof of balance 20:32 < faraka> true, they can reuse addresses, aside from being a costly mechanism 20:32 < bramc> Not particularly costly, just have a single massive coin which you move around like a hot potato 20:33 < faraka> don't like that, it's like a heist waiting to happen. 20:34 < bramc> Or for each individual they could have a coin corresponding specifically to that individual's holdings, although that raises the question of why you're using an exchange at all. 20:34 < bramc> Bitcoin in general is a heist waiting to happen. 20:35 < faraka> i presented something trivial at the miami bitcoin hackathon, but i realized it was useless if it can't prevent off chain heists. 20:35 < faraka> my friend is convinced a student will break bitcoin. 20:37 < faraka> in theory a good non interactive zkp would render the blockchain useless. 20:41 -!- licnep [uid4387@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-yvxnmyrsrpqigcql] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 20:42 -!- kgk_ [~kgk@76.14.85.43] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:49 < bramc> Not sure what you're talking about doing a zkp of. The problem with doing proofs of deposit about things like dollars is that they're something which exists out in the wild, and you can't prove anything about them without relying on some external attestation. 20:59 < bramc> Why does SPV use a bloom filter instead of specifying leading bits? 20:59 -!- siraj [~siraj@114.69.245.154] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:02 -!- siraj_ [~siraj@125.19.79.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:03 -!- TheSeven [~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:03 -!- siraj_ [~siraj@27.97.97.120] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:04 -!- TheSeven [~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:04 -!- earlz_ is now known as earlz 21:07 -!- siraj [~siraj@114.69.245.154] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:07 < amiller_> bramc, what are you talking about, you can represent a large number of elements in a bloom filter using a very small number of bits, way more than specifying the leading bits of all the elements 21:08 -!- siraj [~siraj@125.19.79.57] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:09 -!- siraj_ [~siraj@27.97.97.120] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 21:11 -!- jgarzik [~jgarzik@unaffiliated/jgarzik] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:12 < bramc> amiller_, I was thinking mostly from the point of view of requesting a single thing 21:12 -!- jgarzik [~jgarzik@unaffiliated/jgarzik] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:13 < bramc> A prefix there provides arguably better anonymity. Or not. There are arguments either way as to whether clustering like that is better. 21:16 < bramc> If two people are in a transaction together and they ask using bloom filters, then if you know that they're in a transaction together you can guess which transaction it is, but if you don't know they're in a transaction together then you have an easier time guessing that if they specify a prefix 21:17 < bramc> Unless the whole point of the exercise is to request specific things using the minimum bandwidth possible, without worrying about anonymity, in which case I guess bloom filters make sense. 21:18 < bramc> Although I find it hard to imagine that most wallets need more than one thing at a time. 21:26 -!- 7GHAAMDVD [WW@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-czkxatuzjduhcdkf] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:31 -!- e1782d11df4c9914 [~e1782d11d@cpe-66-68-41-125.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:33 -!- faraka [5512737e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.85.18.115.126] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:36 -!- e1782d11df4c9914 [~e1782d11d@cpe-66-68-41-125.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:37 -!- e1782d11df4c9914 [e1782d11df@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-kunzpsmhrsrkymsq] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:00 -!- siraj [~siraj@125.19.79.57] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:01 -!- jgarzik [~jgarzik@unaffiliated/jgarzik] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 22:12 -!- e1782d11df4c9914 [e1782d11df@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-kunzpsmhrsrkymsq] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:13 < bramc> What does it mean that a block can't be more than a million bytes when it's including the merkle root of transactions? Doesn't that make the block per se small? Or does the million refer to the sum total of the sizes of all the transactions? 22:23 -!- Guest30376 [~Cory@75-135-170-58.dhcp.stpt.wi.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:27 -!- Guest54602 is now known as Graet 22:28 -!- Graet is now known as Guest8078 22:37 -!- cjc [~cjc@unaffiliated/chicago] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:42 -!- zooko` [~user@c-75-70-204-109.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:44 -!- zooko [~user@c-75-70-204-109.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:44 -!- Dizzle [~Dizzle@cpe-72-182-36-12.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:04 -!- siraj [~siraj@125.19.79.57] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:22 -!- zwischenzug [~zwischenz@207.Red-88-8-247.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:25 -!- siraj_ [~siraj@27.97.99.41] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:26 -!- Dizzle [~Dizzle@cpe-72-182-36-12.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: switching laptops] 23:26 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:28 -!- siraj [~siraj@125.19.79.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:29 -!- cjc [~cjc@unaffiliated/chicago] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:40 -!- kgk_ [~kgk@76.14.85.43] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 23:40 -!- paveljanik [~paveljani@79-98-72-216.sys-data.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:41 -!- paveljanik [~paveljani@79-98-72-216.sys-data.com] has quit [Changing host] 23:41 -!- paveljanik [~paveljani@unaffiliated/paveljanik] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:42 -!- kgk_ [~kgk@76.14.85.43] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:43 -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:44 -!- hollandais [~irenacob@li629-190.members.linode.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:48 -!- hollandais [~irenacob@li629-190.members.linode.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:50 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:50 < midnightmagic> bramc: a block size calculation includes all its transactions 23:51 -!- NLNico [~NLNico@unaffiliated/nlnico] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:54 < bramc> Thanks, that explains that 23:54 -!- Guest8078 is now known as Graet 23:55 -!- Graet [~Graet@192.198.92.101] has quit [Changing host] 23:55 -!- Graet [~Graet@unaffiliated/graet] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:55 < bramc> My comment before about prefixes is really about whether ntweak is actually a good idea or whether it should be standardized 23:55 < phantomcircuit> note that doesn't include the size of the merkle tree 23:55 < phantomcircuit> header + transactions 23:56 < bramc> Right, that was my assumption but I forgot to ask 23:56 < bramc> Is the merkle root canonical based on the transactions which went in? 23:57 < phantomcircuit> bramc, it's based on the arbitrary order in which transactions are put into the block 23:58 < bramc> *headdesk* 23:58 < phantomcircuit> there has been some rumblings about setting the order 23:59 < phantomcircuit> but well transactions are malleable anyways so that's kind of pointless to do before fixing that 23:59 < phantomcircuit> mostly it doesn't matter except if you have dependent transactions in the same block --- Log closed Fri Jan 16 00:00:25 2015