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03:58 < lclc> If I store Gold and issue it as Colored Coins, how could I collect storage fees?
03:59 < lclc> Could I define it in the colore kernel? e.g. that the value of one of those colored coins is first 1g each and then decreases by 1% or so each year?
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04:02 < lclc> or in the asset contract actually
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04:38 < Luke-Jr> lclc: obviously you can define it any way you want. another possibility might be to have a "redemption fee" rather than storage fee
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06:23 < andytoshi> http://arxiv.org/pdf/1406.5694v3.pdf <-- PoS paper which cites my work then almost immediately says "we need to introduce trust to avoid this" :) page 11
06:24 < andytoshi> it's quite refreshing to see that laid out
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06:24 < andytoshi> it does then say "bitcoin has checkpoints too" tho :(
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06:37 < nsh> is there something you can point the author at that concisely unwrongthinks the checkpoint misunderstanding?
06:38 < gmaxwell> the right thing is to get them out of the reference software and not worry about this anymore.
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06:39 < gmaxwell> There isn't a better way, obviously people are going to willfully ignore the difference between something set only in new manually updated software fixed thousands of blocks back vs some crazy block signing scheme.
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06:39  * nsh nods
06:40 < instagibbs> to be fair they mentioned in the paper that headers-first is a big step going away from checkpoints
06:40 < Eliel_> why not just support a checkpointless mode for those who don't like them? :P
06:41 < Eliel_> that is, a command line option for it
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06:41 < gmaxwell> Eliel_: uh we do. but thats stupid and doesn't do anything to address the problem.
06:41 < gmaxwell> The post headers first checkpoints are not really needed for anything important now, all they do is confuse the security model.
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06:42 < sipa> nsh: "if checkpoints, as currently used in bitcoin core, fail, the consensus logic hash failed, and the checkpoint won't fix it. They are there because they were needed for a performance optimization, and nothing more."
06:43 < gmaxwell> well performance and DOS attack avoidance.
06:43 < hearn> and also to ensure you don't end up on a bogus chain if you initialise from scratch with a totally sybilled p2p network
06:43 < gmaxwell> hearn: a total work threshold achieves that even better.
06:43 < sipa> hearn: right, that's the DoS avoidance
06:43 < hearn> sure
06:43  * nsh nods
06:43 < sipa> as soon as you connect to an honest node, you'll find the correct chain anyway
06:44 < sipa> but yes, checkpoints avoid wasting time and memory on a bogus chain before that time is reached
06:45 < instagibbs> forgive me but what does the checkpoint do exactly then? Just say "download this chain first"
06:47 < hearn> forces hash at a particular height to be equal to a given value
06:47 < hearn> if it's not the block is considered invalid
06:47 < hearn> (this is for Core/full nodes)
06:48 < hearn> (for SPV clients they have their own notion of checkpoints which is used for different purposes)
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06:50 < nsh> it says when this version of the reference client was released, these here points way back in history were uncontroversially canonical and if you get to that point in history and don't see this block's hash, you might want to start asking for more opinions
06:50 < nsh> is that relatively accurate?
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06:52 < Eliel_> nsh: that sounds pretty much like what I've read in the past.
06:53 < instagibbs> huh.
06:54 < Eliel_> nsh: although, I'd probably phrase it such that "if you don't see this particular hash, you should assume something is seriously wrong and refrain from transacting until you've figured out what's going on."
06:54 < nsh> right, i mean, you shouldn't really be transacting at this point as you haven't verified back to the genesis block
06:55 < nsh> and by really i mean at all
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07:02 < Eliel_> no, I mean, in that case, you should refrain from transacting even if it looks like you've done full verification
07:04 < instagibbs> Ok so the checkpoint rejects blocks as invalid even in the presence of superior length of work. This is only really needed for bootstrapping nodes, as large re-orgs already get alarms
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07:05 < gmaxwell> Eliel_: yea, that part of what I was suggesting we change to, gate ecdsa validation by blocks having a work advantage of X over the best exclusive fork; and then total difficulty or particular blocks just as a wallet safe mode feature.
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07:08 < instagibbs> gmaxwell: still nagging me. How can you say "even though checkpoints do nothing relative to consensus" when default nodes will reject a longer chain, while possibly other nodes won't and will follow the most work rule? Or does this literally only happen on bootstrap?
07:10 < gmaxwell> instagibbs: I'm confused by your quotation, where did I say that?
07:11 < instagibbs> sorry digging up old bct threads from googling about this question: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=194078.20
07:13 < gmaxwell> instagibbs: Thanks. The reason they do nothing in theory is that they can only be added by users updating their software (manually), and are as a matter of policy set thousands of blocks back and not when there is an existing race. So in _practice_ they are not for consensus purposes, they inhibit dos/partitioning attacks and help a performance optimization.  If they were setting the consensus I
07:13 < gmaxwell> (and I think anyone working on bitcoin core) would consider that a a complete failure of the system.
07:14 < instagibbs> Got it.
07:14 < gmaxwell> Unfortunately, because they would have additional consensus effects in those failure situations, people justify straight up centeralized approaches on the basis of them. So we should move to using other mechenisms for the things we intend checkpoints to accomplish in order to avoid the confusion.
07:15 < gmaxwell> Doing so just takes work, the hardest part of that was headers first which has just been finished.
07:15 < gmaxwell> andytoshi: nice post, https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=937058.msg10278072#msg10278072 thanks
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07:17 < NewLiberty> Some later experimental work on checkpoints advanced this by making them more easily user managable, and providing additional options for authoritative checks.  Altcoin Monero implemented these.
07:18 < andytoshi> thx gmaxwell. i maybe should've added some elaboration on the timing attack resistance (e.g. all the code is branchless) but i guess i don't have a super technical audience
07:19 < andytoshi> mainly i wanted to list a ton of stuff to say "there are people thinking about this, and more than briefly"
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07:22 < gmaxwell> NewLiberty: I don't think thats interesting or helpful in general.
07:23 < NewLiberty> It defeats the criticism of "this violates the principles of Bitcoin" handidly.  decentralizing it
07:24 < gmaxwell> NewLiberty: I don't really agree. There are a lot of things you can do which are just decenteralization theater... making the centeralization you actually get harder to analyize and secure against.
07:25 < gmaxwell> E.g. if you have some plug in some magic value thing, what are people going to do? they're going to go to magicvalue.info and plug in whatever it gives them.  You've just obfscuated the trust that would exist _in practice_ with some smoke and mirros that say "well it's not really required".
07:25 < NewLiberty> It does that too.  DNSsec validation, and also provides for out-of-band updates if git is comromised for example. No need for full recomplies to update them , etc.
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07:25 < NewLiberty> It may look stupid if you dig in to it only a foot, but when you see it all, it is robust
07:26 < gmaxwell> The really honorable citation is
07:26 < gmaxwell> 01:57 <@fluffypony> which goes back to the thing we continually say: Monero is not a decentralised cryptocurrency right now. It has the potential to be in future, but right now it's just an experiment
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07:26 < NewLiberty> that is still true ofc
07:27 < fluffypony> MoneroPulse checkpoints aren't enforced by default
07:27 < fluffypony> you'll get notified in big red letters if you're on a fork
07:27 < gmaxwell> In any case, its so that some interesting things are interesting; it's just also easy to fall into the trap of decenteralization theater.
07:27 < fluffypony> you can enable enforcing if you run an unattended node, but it's off by default
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07:28 < gmaxwell> Thats kind of bleh, since if its ever enforced it has a lot of power; but there are reasons in that case to do it. (the centeralization is justified considering the state of the maturity of the system)
07:29 < fluffypony> well the use-case is simple
07:29 < fluffypony> the majority won't turn enforcement on
07:29 < gmaxwell> Though on that basis it might well be better if it were default, since then there wouldn't be any decenteralization-theater about it.
07:30 < gmaxwell> fluffypony: if a significant amount of miners are (who have strong economic incentives to not get 'left behind') then it's basically as good as if everyone did.
07:30 < NewLiberty> ^^
07:30 < fluffypony> yeah, but it doesn't negate hardcoded checkpointing or file checkpointing
07:32 < gmaxwell> at an extreme you can dispense with the blockchain entirely and say "well users can just set which sets of transactions they'll consider valid."  :)
07:32 < fluffypony> yeah, and at another extreme we could have the extreme centralisation of Bitcoin's alert system
07:32 < NewLiberty> y
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07:33 < fluffypony> which, thankfully, we've foregone
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07:34 < gmaxwell> fluffypony: lol, a thing that displays a message which has no effect and which everyone ignores is "extreme centralisation" but a system where broadcast signatures forces "unattended" (e.g. miners) onto paritcular chains, is not? come on.
07:35 < fluffypony> it was tongue-in-cheek, but I think the point has been made
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07:36 < fluffypony> if someone goes and sends an alert and say that X has been compromised and please urgently upgrade to this binary from Y you know that there will be a super-majority that will blindly comply, especially if it's pitched a certain way
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08:34 < krikey> Hello. Im sure you get asked this question a lot. Im trying to configure and install Alethzero on windows 7 but struggling. Is there a working compiled executable that I can use or so I have to "roll my own"?
08:35 < krikey> the exectuable I have (POC6) will ot connect to the default peer
08:35 < krikey> should I be using another Peer?
08:36 < kanzure> wrong channel
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13:54 < op_mul> fluffypony: in the event that the alert key is misused, anybody else who has it can send a maximum sequence alert. this prevents any further use and replaces the message with "alert key compromised".
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13:54 < fluffypony> op_mul: too late, those that took action will already be compromised
13:55 < op_mul> I highly doubt anybody pays attention to alerts. I've spoken to many companies who don't even monitor them.
13:56 < fluffypony> so then the same argument can be made for MoneroPulse
13:56 < fluffypony> the discussion was contextual.
13:57 < fluffypony> also is anyone else dealing with the glibc-pocalypse ?
13:57 < helo> op_mul: bitcoin companies that don't monitor alerts?
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13:58 < helo> fluffypony: luckily we don't run anything that allows user-input dns
13:58 < nsh> fluffypony, what constitutes 'dealing with'? does casual detatched bemusement count?
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13:58 < fluffypony> I'm finding all sorts of interesting bits and pieces in some of my servers that are calling GHOST
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13:59 < nsh> calling gethostbyname, you mean?
13:59 < fluffypony> yes - meant GHBN
13:59 < fluffypony> or GHBN2
13:59 < nsh> (actual code doesn't reference stupid allcaps marketing petnames for vulnerabilities ;)
13:59 < op_mul> helo: I've asked a couple directly. I expected people to be triggering a safe mode of their service from the -alert bitcoind trigger, but nope. one monitors their block heights and goes into a safe mode when they get behind, which is nice.
14:00 < helo> :/
14:00 < fluffypony> nsh: I forget, are we calling this one GHOST or heartleech? I've heard both :-P
14:00 < helo> seems like a rudimentary step to take
14:00 < NewLiberty> CVE-2015-0235
14:00  * nsh smiles
14:01 < nsh> fluffypony, anyway, we're pretty O/T. better to discuss this in ##security or something
14:01 < kanzure> ##nosecuritys
14:01 < fluffypony> security theatre!
14:02 < op_mul> helo: seeing that blockchain.info now supports searching by BIP32 MPK, and I've now seen 2 companies saying they will add "sending to" MPK if the user gives it up, we shouldn't developers to be doing anything sane :(
14:02 < kanzure> "gives it up"?
14:02 < helo> yeah...
14:03 < op_mul> like, puts their MPK into the "send to bitcoin address" textbox.
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14:04 < helo> low hanging data rich core dev fruit, ignored
14:07 < gwillen> op_mul: every day we get more evidence for the proposition "if you don't want people doing something stupid, make sure you make it impossible"
14:08 < gwillen> (i.e. the MPK could have been made into an object that doesn't look like a key you can send to, at the expense of adding totally unnecessary complexity)
14:08 < adam3us> gwillen: another version is if thats not possible (making it impossible) you may actually have to code for them for free otherwise they'll insist on doing the stupid thing because its easier :)
14:08 < gwillen> hah, yeah
14:08 < gwillen> although if the stupid thing really is easier you still lose unless you write the code in every language for every framework
14:08 < gwillen> and even then someone will _still_ reimplement it
14:08 < op_mul> gwillen: that doesn't seem to work. bip38 was proposed but is a totally insane idea. the bip was never finalized as a result. now it's a "standard", where people are writing wallets around these "high security" keys which are nothing of the sort.
14:10 < Eliel_> is there a good article somewhere highlighting what's wrong with bip38?
14:10 < gwillen> op_mul: but BIP32 was not insane and was finalized, so it could have been written differently (purely in retrospect)
14:11 < op_mul> yes. calling the MPK "master public" was a mistake.
14:11 < gwillen> if BIP32 had been written in a way that obfuscated the MPK, even if it was secretly still there but never computed directly, e.g.
14:11  * gwillen nods
14:11 < gwillen> but probably it would have been expecting too much for the authors of BIP32 to forsee this
14:12 < Eliel_> You can't predict every stupid idea people will come up with, unfortunately.
14:12 < gwillen> right
14:12 < gwillen> but it's evidently worth being defensive about them
14:14 < Eliel_> yes, I agree with that
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14:33 < op_mul> the fun thing is I suppose. all the more data for me.
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18:03 < phantomcircuit> does bc.i use a fixed change address?
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18:07 < justanot1eruser> phantomcircuit: at least in the recent past they did
18:08 < justanot1eruser> looks to be so https://blockchain.info/tx/e65d2e45b16bb5c0d444a01cc2b091f8476422a4eecd3644bdb164a4978c15f9
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18:56 < nsh> hm
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21:53 < op_mul> phantomcircuit: yes, blockchain.info use fixed change addresses. in some rare cases they don't, but even then it's quite often a reused change address. given they have added bip32 support to their BE it seems they'll be adding BIP32 to their wallet soon, but they did it in a horrible way that exposes the MPK to them.
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--- Log closed Wed Jan 28 00:00:37 2015