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06:14 < andytosh1> op_mul: my point was that i've read most of libsecp256k1 and the stuff that i read, i understood what was going on. i've tried to look at openssl and every time i get like one line in before i'm chasing macro definitions 5 files deep and can barely keep track of the high-level process, let alone what memory is being moved where
06:15 < andytosh1> so "nobody is looking at this" is exacerbated by the fact that anyone who tries is chased off before they can get started
06:17 < andytosh1> it also helps i think that there is apparently more paranoia in the bitcoin space (where libsecp256k1 is used) for some reason than there is in literally every other area of commerce combined (where openssl is used)
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06:30 < jgarzik> andytoshi, Previously, finance could wave a wand and undo any attacker damage
06:31 < jgarzik> andytoshi, That doesn't work with bitcoin ;p
06:31 < jgarzik> we have to be more paranoid
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06:46 < op_mul> andytoshi: I follow.
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21:26 < siraj> how are governments supposed to tax people in a DAO world? When everything is a DAO, nothing has to be incorporated, no tax forms required, earnings are pseudonymous since its all in crypto, income tax becomes impossible. if governments aren't able to tax people forcibly, how are things like public roads going to get funded and avoid the free rider problem? crowdfunding can't work for everything?
21:27 < op_mul> siraj: off topic, #bitcoin or #mild-paranoia
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21:34 < gmaxwell> hopefully someone in #bitcoin gives his insane question a reasonable answer.
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21:35 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, he didn't ask it
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21:47 < jcorgan> would it be considered #mild-paranoia to entertain the notion that TLAs have funded a program to send trolls to #bitcoin* ?
21:47 < jcorgan> :)
21:48 < phantomcircuit> jcorgan, there's been a decided uptick in crazy people recently
21:49 < jcorgan> yes.  disturbingly so.  just when bitcoin was getting boring and conventional.
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21:51 < gmaxwell> I dunno I think it just comes in cycles, probably because its a small number of bad apples with many identities.
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21:52 < phantomcircuit> maybe
21:53 < phantomcircuit> actually... probably
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21:55 < jcorgan> i have to say i've been a participant in many communities over the years, and this one seems to attact the largest number of otherwise seemingly normal people suddenly going off on conspiracy rants.
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21:56 < jcorgan> maybe just wide tails.  lots of people at the other end, too.
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21:58 < op_mul> I think it's just a subject that attracts that sort of person.
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21:58 < op_mul> bitcointalk has some of the highest levels of insanity that I've ever seen on any forum.
21:59 < jcorgan> ah, well.  back to your regularly scheduled -wizards
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23:25 < amincd> As I understand it, having a UTXO commit in the block header is resource-intensive because it requires miners to continuously calculate new UXTO merkle root hashes as they include new transactions in the block they're working on. How about putting the merkle root of the UTXO set of the PREVIOUS block in the block the miner generates?
23:26 < amincd> And that way light clients can only store the last block, and the UTXO, to verify whether a transaction is valid
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23:28 < amincd> *and the UTXO set
23:28 < amincd> or just the commit of the UTXO set
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23:31 < amincd> s/store the last block/store transactions generated since the last block/
23:32 < sipa> amincd: that's an idea that has been suggested; i believe that's reasonable
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23:33 < amincd> sipa: thanks for your assessment
23:34 < gmaxwell> amincd: it doesn't change the work required, though it would reduce the latency impact.
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23:35 < amincd> gmaxwell: you only need to calculate the UTXO merke root once in this implementation, as opposed to every time a new tx is received
23:35 < gmaxwell> amincd: You don't otherwise need to compute it every time a new tx is recieved.
23:35 < sipa> you don't do it for every new transaction; just for every attempted block
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23:36 < sipa> but that is likely still more than once
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23:36 < gmaxwell> one will still need potentially a factor log(utxo size) more IO to process each utxo update, you just have more time to do it. Having more time /may/ result in more batching gain, but if the tree is large compared to the number of entries updated the batching gain is small.
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23:41 < phantomcircuit> http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/01/silk-road-trial-how-the-dread-pirate-roberts-embraced-violence/
23:41 < phantomcircuit> "Every bitcoin transaction is published in a kind of digital-age public ledger at the blockchain.info website."
23:41 < phantomcircuit> for shits sake
23:41 < justanotheruser> phantomcircuit: andreas will be talking at the trial soon
23:42 < op_mul> phantomcircuit: my money is on some government raiding blockchain.info thinking they are the heart of bitcoin.
23:43 < phantomcircuit> op_mul, that would be
23:43 < phantomcircuit> lol
23:43 < phantomcircuit> i can see that happening
23:43 < justanotheruser> I hope they're smarter than that
23:43 < op_mul> there's a story in the bitcoin issues where someone is arrested based on the "relayed by" ip address blockchain.info shows.
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23:44 < justanotheruser> I think a bc.i raid is a bit different, but I suppose it could happen
23:48 < op_mul> I was going to host DNS seeds at one point, and then realised they probaby attract a lot of unwanted attention.
23:48 < op_mul> if you wanted to poison new clients coming into the network, that's an easy target.
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23:49 < op_mul> just make a bunch of nodes, have your seed only return those nodes, done.
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23:58 < phantomcircuit> oops wrong channel
23:58 < phantomcircuit> <sipa> you don't do it for every new transaction; just for every attempted block
23:58 < phantomcircuit> that is likely every transaction
23:58 < phantomcircuit> or very nearly so
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--- Log closed Mon Feb 02 00:00:07 2015