--- Log opened Wed Feb 04 00:00:44 2015 00:02 -!- orik_ [~orik@50-46-132-219.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:03 -!- orik [~orik@50-46-132-219.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:03 -!- orik_ is now known as orik 00:16 -!- thrasher` [~thrasher@27-33-27-140.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:16 -!- thrasher` [~thrasher@27-33-27-140.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:18 -!- wiz [~sid1@d06f3063.wiz.network] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:29 -!- wiz [~sid1@d06f3063.wiz.network] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:31 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-12.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:33 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:36 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-12.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:38 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:44 -!- Mably [56401ec3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.86.64.30.195] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:48 -!- koshii [~0@node-19e4.pool-125-24.dynamic.totbb.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:59 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:01 -!- SDCDev [~quassel@unaffiliated/sdcdev] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:03 -!- soundx [~soundx@gateway/tor-sasl/soundx] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:03 -!- Rynomster [~quassel@unaffiliated/rynomster] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:05 -!- andy-logbot [~bitcoin--@wpsoftware.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:05 -!- andy-logbot [~bitcoin--@wpsoftware.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:05 * andy-logbot is logging 01:05 -!- thrasher` [~thrasher@27-33-27-140.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:05 -!- thrasher` [~thrasher@27-33-27-140.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:06 -!- SDCDev [~quassel@unaffiliated/sdcdev] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:07 -!- soundx [~soundx@gateway/tor-sasl/soundx] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:08 -!- e1782d11df4c9914 [e1782d11df@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-cmlgudagsackhwmd] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:09 -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gateway/tor-sasl/dr-g] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:10 -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gateway/tor-sasl/dr-g] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:10 -!- orik [~orik@50-46-132-219.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 01:12 -!- soundx [~soundx@gateway/tor-sasl/soundx] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:13 -!- kgk [~kgk@76.14.85.43] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…] 02:28 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:34 -!- ielo [~ielo@host-78-147-230-48.as13285.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:43 -!- thrasher` [~thrasher@27-33-27-140.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:45 -!- thrasher` [~thrasher@27-33-27-140.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:47 -!- devrandom [~devrandom@gateway/tor-sasl/niftyzero1] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:48 < stonecoldpat> amincd: in regards to proposal to have a normal / prunable merkle tree - miners would then have to power to dictate if your transaction is 'forgotten' about in the future - your trusting them to make the correct decision to place the transaction in the correct sub-tree. Unless there is strict validation, i.e. your transaction must have an anchor/special OP_CODE to be stored in the 02:48 < stonecoldpat> prunable merkle tree, then it's open to abuse. (if I have understood your idea correctly, of course). 02:48 -!- ielo [~ielo@host-92-24-47-187.ppp.as43234.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:49 -!- soundx [~soundx@gateway/tor-sasl/soundx] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:49 -!- cletus11 [~cletus11@99-172-47-87.lightspeed.tblltx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 02:49 -!- devrandom [~devrandom@gateway/tor-sasl/niftyzero1] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:50 < amincd> stonecoldpat: The prunable transactions would have a special OP_CODE, yes. The only trickly part is mining fees. If these are temporary transactions, how would you assign fees to them? Without permanent storage, there'd be no way to validate that the fees the miner earned was valid 02:50 < amincd> *the only tricky part from what I can - it's entirely possible I'm missing some major flaw in the design 02:50 -!- RoboTedd_ [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:51 -!- soundx [~soundx@gateway/tor-sasl/soundx] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:52 -!- RoboTedd_ [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:53 < Eliel_> amincd: it could be possible to create a ZKP that in itself takes less space than the transactions it proves were done according to the rules. 02:53 -!- RoboTedd_ [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:53 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:54 < stonecoldpat> amincd: another assumption is that the block would not have got validated if it was incorrect - so the fact that its survived 100 chains may be enough? 02:54 < Eliel_> although, if a usable ZKP for this purpose appears, you might as well forget about prunable and nonprunable and just use it for the whole history. 02:54 -!- soundx [~soundx@gateway/tor-sasl/soundx] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:54 < amincd> Eliel_: yes ZKP look like magic to me. If they can work, we would live in a magical world 02:55 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:56 < Eliel_> well, it certainly is a pretty arcane process :D 02:58 < stonecoldpat> amincd: i think it depends if you want future validation, or just limited-future validation (probably not the best words), future validation in this sense is that i can always verify the block is correct no matter how much time has pasted, limited-future validation is that i can only verify the block is correct for a limited period of time (pre-defined by the protocol) unless I keep 02:58 < stonecoldpat> a record of the additional information required, and if you assume that the merkle tree is prunable after 100 blocks, that may well be enough - in the sense that the network would not have included that block in the chain if it were not correct. 02:58 -!- GibsonA [~thrasher@27-33-27-140.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:58 -!- RoboTedd_ [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:59 < stonecoldpat> but your transactions would need to literally only spend a fee, and not send bitcoins to anyone, which is not very practical 02:59 < stonecoldpat> so a single OP_RETURN output, and the fee is collected by miner 03:01 -!- thrasher` [~thrasher@27-33-27-140.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:04 -!- Rynomster [~quassel@unaffiliated/rynomster] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:06 -!- SDCDev [~quassel@unaffiliated/sdcdev] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:07 < amincd> stonecoldpat: considering the root hash of the prunable merkle tree would be permanently stored in the blockchain, you could always validate a proof that a pruned hash appeared in a block 03:08 < stonecoldpat> amincd: exactly, i just ment that the network would still send you the information required to validate the proof. after 100 blocks all nodes can safely delete it - apart from those who still have to maintain that validation 03:08 < amincd> stonecoldpat: yes exactly 03:08 < stonecoldpat> the fact that the block was in the blockchain for such a long time (with the additional information being sent out) may be enough to prove that the fee's sent to the miner is okay 03:09 < stonecoldpat> so your problem, isn't really a problem in that sense, you just need to make sure the pruned transactions do not have any spendable outputs 03:09 < amincd> stonecoldpat: yeah that makes sense but for some reason it seems dangerous to allow that 03:10 < stonecoldpat> amincd: it doesnt make me feel easy either, but its a good thought experiament 03:10 < Eliel_> you could probably incentivize full archival nodes by having another PoW function that actually requires you to have the whole transaction data to run. 03:10 < Eliel_> and have some kind of a reward that is only available for miners running that algo 03:12 < Eliel_> It's my understanding that there are usable such functions already designed, although I haven't heard of any coin that actually uses one. 03:12 -!- SDCDev [~quassel@unaffiliated/sdcdev] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:12 -!- orperelman [~orperelma@bzq-79-181-128-67.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:12 < amincd> Eliel_: apparently PoW functions dependent on real-world transaction data are not very practical 03:13 < stonecoldpat> Eliel_: do you mean a pow such that full and semi-nodes can verify, or just full-nodes? (so solve this pow a smaller reward, but the entire network can verify, or solve this full archival pow for a larger reward, but only full archival nodes can verify)? 03:13 < amincd> Eliel_: IIRC, Vitalik Buterin did some research on this for Ethereum 03:13 < Eliel_> amincd: in what sense? 03:13 < Eliel_> do you have a link? Are they not practical to be used as the only PoW or just not practical at all? 03:14 < amincd> Eliel_: it's hard to programmatically determine how much work it requires 03:14 < Eliel_> amincd: oh ok, so not very reliable as a proof of work. So having it be a secondary PoW is not a problem then. 03:14 < Eliel_> and will incentivize archival nodes 03:15 < amincd> Eliel_: don't have a link on hand, I can look for it later. 03:15 -!- thrasher` [~thrasher@27-33-27-140.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:15 < Eliel_> although, probably makes sense to call it PoA, in this case :) 03:16 -!- GibsonA [~thrasher@27-33-27-140.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:16 < amincd> Anyway, my interest is in finding a way to introduce data in Bitcoin that can be totally pruned, while preventing a root timestamp hash, and without breaking Bitcoin. I think this could have potential uses 03:16 < amincd> s/while preventing/while preserving/ 03:16 -!- justanot1eruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:16 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:26 -!- eslbaer__ [~eslbaer@p5B146B1E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:27 -!- eslbaer_ [~eslbaer@p548A4BF4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:32 -!- GibsonA [~thrasher@27-33-27-140.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:32 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-12.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:35 -!- thrasher` [~thrasher@27-33-27-140.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:37 -!- thrasher` [~thrasher@27-33-27-140.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:37 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-12.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:38 -!- GibsonA [~thrasher@27-33-27-140.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:38 -!- ielo [~ielo@host-92-24-47-187.ppp.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:46 -!- GibsonA [~thrasher@27-33-27-140.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:50 -!- thrasher` [~thrasher@27-33-27-140.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:59 -!- GibsonA [~thrasher@27-33-27-140.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:59 -!- thrasher` [~thrasher@27-33-27-140.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:04 -!- p15 [~p15@77.247.178.103] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 04:04 -!- GibsonA [~thrasher@27-33-27-140.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:06 < amincd> stonecoldpat: so regarding paying fees for getting txs included in the prunable merkle sub-tree, I was thinking this might be how it could be done: The user creates a normal fee-paying transaction, and indicates which non-prunable transaction that fee is intended to pay for, by including those transactions' hashes. The mining network would only consider those blocks valid that contain prunable transactions that the block gen 04:07 < amincd> The downside to this is that obviously this would reduce the space-saving effect of having a prunable sub-tree, because all of the transaction hashes of the 'prunable' transactions would be permanently stored in the non-prunable sub-tree. 04:07 -!- thrasher` [~thrasher@27-33-27-140.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:08 < amincd> However it still preserves one of the design goals of this concept: only verified hashes would be permanently stored 04:09 < amincd> s/verified hashes/data verified to be a hash/ 04:09 -!- GibsonA [~thrasher@27-33-27-140.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:09 -!- thrasher` [~thrasher@27-33-27-140.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:16 -!- NikolaiToryzin [~stqism@freebsd/user/stqism] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:16 -!- DoctorBTC 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[~gnusha@unaffiliated/kanzure/bot/gnusha] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:16 -!- Topic for #bitcoin-wizards: This channel is not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja 04:16 -!- Topic set by andytoshi [~andytoshi@unaffiliated/andytoshi] [Fri Aug 22 14:51:37 2014] 04:16 [Users #bitcoin-wizards] 04:16 [@ChanServ ] [ catlasshrugged] [ fanquake ] [ jgarzik ] [ nanotube ] [ s1w ] 04:16 [ [d__d] ] [ cbeams ] [ fenn ] [ JonTitor ] [ NewLiberty ] [ sdaftuar ] 04:16 [ a5m0 ] [ cfields ] [ Fistful_of_Coins] [ justanot1eruser] [ nick1234abcd__] [ shesek ] 04:16 [ aburan28 ] [ CodeShark ] [ fluffypony ] [ K1773R ] [ nickler ] [ sipa ] 04:16 [ adlai ] [ coiner ] [ forrestv ] [ kanzure ] [ NikolaiToryzin] [ sl01 ] 04:16 [ Adrian_G ] [ comboy_ ] [ gavinandresen ] [ Keefe ] [ nsh ] [ smooth ] 04:16 [ ahmed_ ] [ copumpkin ] [ gmaxwell ] [ kinlo ] [ nubbins` ] [ sneak ] 04:16 [ ajweiss ] [ Cory ] [ 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] [ eslbaer__ ] [ jcluck ] [ MRL-Relay ] [ ryan-c ] [ yoleaux ] 04:16 [ catcow ] [ espes__ ] [ jcorgan ] [ Muis ] [ ryanxcharles ] [ yrashk ] 04:16 -!- Irssi: #bitcoin-wizards: Total of 204 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 203 normal] 04:16 -!- Channel #bitcoin-wizards created Mon Feb 25 23:24:47 2013 04:16 -!- Irssi: Join to #bitcoin-wizards was synced in 22 secs 04:20 < stonecoldpat> if the prunable transactions were able to store more than 20 bytes (so 80 bytes) then you have a good trade-off, but txid are vulnerable to malleability so its not that great, i think something better could be done, e.g. OP_PRUNE and then the pruneanble tree would contain the data/pre-image to the hash. All clients can verify that the pre-image 'd' is inside the pruneable 04:20 < stonecoldpat> merkle-tree and that this pre-image 'd' matches the inside the fee paying transaction, such that = H(D) 04:20 -!- DoctorBTC_ [~DoctorBTC@cpe-172-249-161-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:20 < stonecoldpat> the data eventually gets deleted (after 100 blocks), but the commitment to that data still exists 04:20 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: Cory, prodatalab, NikolaiToryzin, DoctorBTC, andytoshi, brand0, eslbaer__, Meeh, tromp, spinza, (+2 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them) 04:20 -!- contrapumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:21 < stonecoldpat> but it depends if u want to store hashes or the pre-image of a hash in the pruneable tree 04:21 -!- OneNomos [~OneNomos@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/onenomos] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:21 -!- Netsplit over, joins: spinza 04:21 -!- spinza [~spin@197.89.23.81] has quit [Excess Flood] 04:21 < stonecoldpat> i think ideally the hash and pre-image (or either), so a fee paying trnasaction doesnt bloat the chain 04:22 -!- spinza [~spin@197.89.23.81] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:22 -!- Netsplit over, joins: brand0 04:22 -!- Pasha is now known as Cory 04:24 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r167-57-146-134.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:25 -!- thrasher` [~thrasher@27-33-27-140.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:25 -!- thrasher` [~thrasher@27-33-27-140.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:26 < amincd> stonecoldpat: yes that's exactly what I was proposing. My description may have been unclear 04:26 -!- eslbaer__ [~eslbaer@p5B146B1E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:29 < stonecoldpat> amincd: ah sorry my fault then, although i dont think the pruneable trees need to be transactions, just signed messages (that are ideally not malleable) 04:30 < stonecoldpat> perhaps given as part of a different channel and not the network itself (so miner only includes once he is given a match) 04:30 -!- op_mul [~op_mul@128.199.127.146] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:31 -!- rusty1 [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:31 < op_mul> amiller: if you're going to quote someone talking about proof of work, vitalik is literally one of the worst you could try. he's failed utterly and completely at making his own "asic proof" one before. 04:31 < op_mul> amincd, rather. 04:31 -!- ielo [~ielo@134.219.227.35] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:32 < amincd> stonecoldpat: ah good point. I was using 'prunable transaction' interchangeably with 'pre-image data', which is not correct. 04:32 < amincd> I gotta for now. I look forward to discussing this further if you have any further thoughts 04:32 < amincd> *gotta go 04:33 < op_mul> amincd: "useful" proof of work is nonsense none the less. they're always going to be centralised, introduce incentives to do things outside of bitcoin which might not allign with the network's, and generally don't produce anything useful. 04:33 < stonecoldpat> good luck, ill give it a think 04:34 < amincd> op_mul: the goal was not to make 'useful' proof of work. It was to make proof of work that requires having the blockchain in memory, in order to increase the number of miners that are full nodes 04:35 < amincd> op_mul: in any case, it turned out to be a dead-end 04:35 -!- soundx [~soundx@gateway/tor-sasl/soundx] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:35 < op_mul> Eliel_: there's been some altcoins attempt a UTXO querying proof of working, but as always they tend to fail extremely hard at it. one allowed n nonces before requerying, so all that happened was people made stratum servers giving out 30MB mining work. 04:35 -!- soundx [~soundx@gateway/tor-sasl/soundx] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:36 < op_mul> amincd: eh, sorry, failed juxtaposed conversations and mixed the responses. sorry. 04:37 < op_mul> amincd: there's a couple of real-world examples of altcoins that do that to varying degrees, have you taken a look at them? 04:38 -!- eslbaer__ [~eslbaer@p5B146B1E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:38 -!- thrasher` [~thrasher@27-33-27-140.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:38 -!- thrasher` [~thrasher@27-33-27-140.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:38 -!- eslbaer__ [~eslbaer@p579E86A6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:40 -!- e1782d11df4c9914 [e1782d11df@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-wgyuylatmtqwyjuj] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:49 -!- priynag [~chatzilla@122.167.224.167] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:50 < priynag> Heya! We're building an IRC client with built-in logging called scrollback.io - do you mind if we log #bitcoin-wizards? 04:50 < priynag> we're already logging a bunch of freenode channels including #node.js - scrollback.io/nodejs 04:51 < nubbins`> o.O 04:51 < nubbins`> if someone minded, you'd stop? 04:52 < nubbins`> also, is the client you're building called "chatzilla"? :P 04:52 < priynag> @nubbins` - If people have issues, we won't 04:52 < priynag> No...its called scrollback.io 04:53 < priynag> You can check rooms like scrollback.io/nodejs or scrollback.io/mozilla-india 04:53 < nubbins`> just wondering because you're currently using chatzilla 04:53 < nubbins`> also wondering why you'd stop logging on someone's request 04:53 < nubbins`> it's a public channel, there are probably a hundred people logging it already 04:54 < priynag> We don't want to log rooms, if channel ops or most users are against it 04:54 < nubbins`> you seem a bit confused 04:55 < priynag> Okies...I will tell you a little more about how Scrollback.io works. We log IRC channels only if they are approved. We don't do it otherwise 04:55 < priynag> Thats the reason I stopped by to take permission here 04:57 < op_mul> priynag: do you know that's against freenode rules right? 04:58 < op_mul> well. I suppose if you're asking. it's not as bad. 04:59 < nubbins`> logging or the public posting of logs? 04:59 < priynag> We are already logging a few freenode channels like node.js...again, it permission from channel oop 04:59 < op_mul> nubbins`: public logging. if a channel has public logs it's in the topic. if it's not, there shouldn't be any logs. 04:59 < op_mul> private logging is of course a totally different matter. 04:59 < nubbins`> well til! 05:00 < priynag> op_mul: So, do you think its okay if we log this channel? 05:01 < op_mul> priynag: I'm not a chanop, it's not my choice. 05:02 < priynag> op_mul: Sure. 05:02 < op_mul> priynag: you are logging #bitcoin which you most certainly shouldn't be doing though. 05:05 < priynag> op_mul: No...I just checked 05:05 < priynag> We currently are not 05:06 -!- maraoz [~maraoz@43-161-16-190.fibertel.com.ar] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:09 -!- thrasher` [~thrasher@27-33-27-140.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:09 -!- thrasher` [~thrasher@27-33-27-140.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:15 -!- dansmith_btc [~dansmith@static-ip-188-138-127-218.inaddr.ip-pool.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 05:16 -!- dansmith_btc [~dansmith@static-ip-188-138-127-218.inaddr.ip-pool.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:16 -!- Quanttek [~quassel@2a02:8108:73f:f6e4:e23f:49ff:fe47:9364] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:17 -!- nubbins` [~leel@unaffiliated/nubbins] has quit [Quit: Quit] 05:17 -!- siraj [~siraj@59.94.195.253] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:20 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:304:cff8:1580:edab:b1f5:8e13:9dfc] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:21 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-12.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:21 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@76-255-129-88.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:22 < op_mul> priynag: https://scrollback.io/bitcoin 05:24 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:26 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-12.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:27 -!- GibsonA [~thrasher@27-33-27-140.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:27 < priynag> op_mul: I think thats because the channel op had accepted to do so 05:27 < priynag> We generally don't link Scrollback to any IRC channel, without permission 05:30 -!- thrasher` [~thrasher@27-33-27-140.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:33 -!- erasmospunk [~erasmospu@net-2-38-211-181.cust.vodafonedsl.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:33 -!- ielo [~ielo@134.219.227.35] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:35 -!- lclc is now known as lclc_bnc 05:46 -!- nubbins` [~leel@unaffiliated/nubbins] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:53 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:53 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@chello084114181075.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:53 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@chello084114181075.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Changing host] 05:53 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:58 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:00 * Eliel_ wonders if it'd make sense to implement a system that prunes the utxo set throwing out transactions that haven't been proven to be spendable. 06:01 < Eliel_> Would that be too costly? 06:01 < Eliel_> err, make that txouts that haven't been proven to be spendable. 06:02 -!- orperelman [~orperelma@bzq-79-181-128-67.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:02 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:03 < Eliel_> as for the proof, well, you need to prove the private key exists. So, a signature would do. 06:04 < Eliel_> perhaps make the system such that without a proof, the utxo set will keep the txout for a year or two. 06:04 -!- soundx [~soundx@gateway/tor-sasl/soundx] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:04 < Eliel_> and then assume unspendable and prune it. 06:04 < wumpus> that's the same idea as expiring utxos 06:05 < Eliel_> yes, but with the addition of a way to prevent it without needing an active online system to do it. 06:05 < wumpus> so to maintain a balance, you have to involve it in a transaction every N blocks 06:06 < wumpus> there have been better (or at least more subtle) proposals, in which old utxos are expired from the 'fast' store, but you can still spend them given a full proof 06:07 < Eliel_> ah, yes, if you provide the input transaction plus the merkle tree branch. 06:08 -!- soundx_ [~soundx@gateway/tor-sasl/soundx] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:08 < Eliel_> come to think of it, wouldn't this allow a kind of utxo pruning without actually making anything unspendable? 06:08 -!- soundx [~soundx@gateway/tor-sasl/soundx] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:08 < wumpus> I think so 06:09 < stonecoldpat> i dont know if an input transaction + merkle tree branch is enough as it could have been spent in a previous transaction whose output has also been "pruned" 06:10 < Eliel_> oh right, you'd need to keep a record of all spend txouts somehow for this to work. 06:11 < Eliel_> *spent 06:11 -!- maraoz [~maraoz@43-161-16-190.fibertel.com.ar] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:11 -!- hashtag_ [~hashtag@CPE-69-23-213-3.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:12 < siraj> couldn't you achieve decentralized consensus on anything by creating an app that stores data in its own bitorrent mainline DHT and uses ricardian contracts? No need for a blockchain 06:12 < wumpus> it's non-trivial, but if it can work it is much more realistic to be integrated into bitcoin than truly expiring utxos. I expect there to be too much resistance to that. 06:14 < wumpus> uh oh, someone said the DH.. word *braces for impact* 06:14 * op_mul braces for brammc 06:18 -!- priynag [~chatzilla@122.167.224.167] has left #bitcoin-wizards [] 06:19 < siraj> Let's hear it. Openbazaar seems to have opted for it instead of a blockchain. Plus, no computationally expensive proof of work or huge blockchain download necessary. 06:20 -!- soundx_ [~soundx@gateway/tor-sasl/soundx] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:21 -!- soundx [~soundx@gateway/tor-sasl/soundx] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:22 < wumpus> siraj: but more seriously: how you store the transactions is not really important, what matters is how to verify that inputs to an transaction are not already spent, that's where the block chain and its running state the utxo set come in 06:25 < kanzure> why would you have to tell sipa that? 06:25 < wumpus> who is saying anything to sipa? 06:25 < kanzure> oh interesting 06:25 < kanzure> right 06:26 -!- op_mul is now known as siqa 06:27 < stonecoldpat> siraj: from what I can see, its still using the blockchain to commit to the transactions - DHT listings are used to match buyers/sellers before making any transactions (this is based on 10 minutes reading the github - so I may be wrong) 06:32 < fluffypony> siqa: "how do you make the backwards p?" 06:32 < fluffypony> :-P 06:32 < siraj> wumpus good point. stonecoldpat hmm you might be right. noob question - what do you mean 'using the blockchain to commit to the transaction'? its a btc tx that uses btc's blockchain. what does commiting to a transaction signify? 06:32 < siqa> fluffypony: doesn't matter how it's made, the end result is a thousand angry irssi users. 06:33 -!- siqa is now known as op_mul 06:33 < stonecoldpat> siraq: just to finalise the payment, i'm not the greatest person with words 06:38 -!- soundx_ [~soundx@gateway/tor-sasl/soundx] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:39 -!- soundx [~soundx@gateway/tor-sasl/soundx] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:43 -!- OneNomos [~OneNomos@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/onenomos] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:46 -!- maraoz [~maraoz@43-161-16-190.fibertel.com.ar] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:46 < Eliel_> siraj: the blockchain is used to prove that something existed at some point in the past. In this case, it'd be the contract between the buyer and seller. 06:47 < Eliel_> this means that it's not possible to change the contract and try to claim that the changed version was what was agreed on 06:47 < siraj> Thanks Eliel 06:47 < Eliel_> because only the correct version has been registered in the blockchain. 06:51 -!- gavinandresen [~gavin@unaffiliated/gavinandresen] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:52 -!- jcluck is now known as cluckj 06:55 -!- hearn [~mike@84-75-198-85.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:56 -!- c0rw1n [~c0rw1n@91.176.85.209] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:57 -!- gavinandresen [~gavin@unaffiliated/gavinandresen] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:57 -!- op_mul [~op_mul@128.199.127.146] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:01 -!- siraj [~siraj@59.94.195.253] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:07 -!- coiner [~linker@115.79.55.177] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:10 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-12.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:14 -!- roconnor [~roconnor@e120-pool-d89a617b.brdbnd.voicenetwork.ca] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:15 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-12.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:18 -!- starsoccer [~starsocce@104.219.184.155] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:19 -!- starsoccer is now known as Guest64296 07:19 -!- roconnor [~roconnor@e120-pool-d89a617b.brdbnd.voicenetwork.ca] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 07:24 -!- Guest64296 [~starsocce@104.219.184.155] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:24 -!- mkarrer [~mkarrer@4.Red-83-34-47.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:25 -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:29 -!- OneNomos [~OneNomos@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/onenomos] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:31 -!- lclc_bnc is now known as lclc 07:31 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:32 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:35 -!- kobud [ncidsk@unaffiliated/fluffybunny] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:35 -!- ielo [~ielo@134.219.227.35] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:36 -!- mkarrer [~mkarrer@4.Red-83-34-47.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:37 -!- hktud0 [wq@unaffiliated/fluffybunny] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:45 -!- ielo [~ielo@134.219.227.35] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:53 -!- hearn [~mike@84-75-198-85.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…] 11:53 -!- belcher [~belcher-s@unaffiliated/belcher] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:56 -!- grandmaster [dansmith3@knows.the.cops.are.investigat.in] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:56 -!- jtimon [~quassel@12.203.200.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:58 < gavinandresen> Hey math wizards: what’s the formula for: What are the chances that I’ll see X or more blocks in S seconds, assuming average block time of 600 seconds and constant hash rate? 12:03 < ryan-c|web> gavinandresen: you want to compute a poisson distribution using the probability of finding a block in any given second 12:04 < ryan-c|web> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisson_distribution 12:04 -!- hearn [~mike@84-75-198-85.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 12:04 < gavinandresen> ryan-c|web: right, but I don’t know nuthin about combining statistical distributions 12:04 < gavinandresen> If I had infinite time I’d take a few statistics classes..... 12:05 < nubbins`> don't do it, they're a trap 12:05 < nubbins`> +1 for poisson, it's been too long tho 12:05 < ryan-c|web> gavinandresen: It should just be one distribution, you want the cumulative distribution function. 12:05 < ryan-c|web> one sec, translating it 12:08 < gavinandresen> ryan-c|web: thanks! That’s the FPoisson(k;lambda)… on the wikipedia page? yeah, I have no idea what semicolons in that function definition mean. 12:10 < ryan-c|web> gavinandresen: k is the minimum number of events, it looks like lambda is the "expected" number of events in the time period - so odds of finding a block in one second at current hash rate and difficulty times "S", the number of seconds you're looking at. 12:10 < gavinandresen> ryan-c|web: so the odds of finding, say, eleven blocks in one hour would be… 12:11 < tromp__> P(>=blocks in S seconds) = e^{-S/600} sum_{k>=X} (S/600)^k / k! 12:12 < ryan-c|web> gavinandresen: tromp__ sounds like he knows what he's talking about. 12:12 < tromp__> P(X blocks in S seconds) = e^{-S/600} (S/600)^X / X! 12:13 < ryan-c|web> I use tools that have the distribution stuff as built in functions already so i don't remember how you actually calculate it. 12:13 < gavinandresen> tromp_: thanks! 12:14 < tromp__> i'm just translating from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisson_process#Homogeneous 12:14 -!- hearn [~mike@84-75-198-85.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:15 -!- cletus11 [~cletus11@99-172-47-87.lightspeed.tblltx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:15 < kanzure> what is the difference between your e^{} syntax and e^() syntax 12:15 < tromp__> so odds of exactly one block in 10 min should be 1/e 12:16 < tromp__> no diff; i'm just using LaTeX notation 12:16 < kanzure> oops now i've leaked that i haven't written latex in like, months 12:16 < ryan-c|web> kanzure: He's writing in LaTeX syntax 12:16 < ryan-c|web> ugh, web chat isn't scrolling 12:19 < tromp__> odds of no blocks in k*10mins should be e^-k 12:21 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-12.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:22 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-12.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:22 -!- belcher is now known as LondonCalling 12:22 -!- LondonCalling is now known as belcher 12:26 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-12.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:33 -!- hearn [~mike@84-75-198-85.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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(i am a chanop) 13:48 -!- soundx [~soundx@gateway/tor-sasl/soundx] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:50 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:51 < dgenr8> tromp__'s first expression is an infinite sum, but can be replaced by 1 - e^{-S/600} sum_{k ? 13:57 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:57 < nubbins`> andytoshi i think you might have me confused with the guy who was asking 14:01 -!- soundx [~soundx@gateway/tor-sasl/soundx] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:05 -!- user7779078 [~user77790@ool-4a5987f1.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:06 -!- hearn [~mike@84-75-198-85.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 14:07 < tromp__> dgenr8 right; but for larger X, numerically computing a truncated tail will probably give a more accurate reult, since the terms converge to 0 fast 14:09 < dgenr8> alrighty then ;) 14:10 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-12.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:10 -!- ielo [~ielo@134.219.227.35] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:15 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-12.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:21 < andytoshi> nubbins`: oops, yes :) i meant priynag 14:24 -!- RoboTedd_ [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:27 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:28 -!- RoboTedd_ [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:28 -!- rusty [~rusty@ppp118-210-58-108.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:28 -!- rusty [~rusty@ppp118-210-58-108.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Changing host] 14:28 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:29 -!- hearn [~mike@84-75-198-85.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:29 -!- hearn [~mike@84-75-198-85.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Client Quit] 14:31 -!- soundx [~soundx@gateway/tor-sasl/soundx] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:32 -!- Quanttek [~quassel@2a02:8108:73f:f6e4:e23f:49ff:fe47:9364] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:32 -!- soundx [~soundx@gateway/tor-sasl/soundx] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:34 -!- soundx [~soundx@gateway/tor-sasl/soundx] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:34 -!- jb55_ [~jb55@24.114.36.17] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:34 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@76-255-129-88.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:35 -!- Quanttek [~quassel@ip1f1171b4.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:36 -!- orik [~orik@75.149.169.53] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:37 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@2601:9:3483:2400:bca3:68e6:3b1a:8bb2] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:38 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:40 -!- nubbins` [~leel@unaffiliated/nubbins] has quit [Quit: Quit] 14:41 -!- Quanttek [~quassel@ip1f1171b4.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:47 -!- jb55 [~jb55@24.114.36.17] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:48 -!- sipa [~pw@unaffiliated/sipa1024] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:50 -!- ryan-c|web [41d13c92@gateway/web/freenode/ip.65.209.60.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:52 -!- ielo [~ielo@host-80-41-21-246.as13285.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:52 -!- hearn [~mike@84-75-198-85.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:00 -!- rusty [~rusty@220-244-113-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:00 -!- rusty [~rusty@220-244-113-206.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Changing host] 15:00 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:00 -!- paveljanik [~paveljani@unaffiliated/paveljanik] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 15:06 -!- starsoccer [~starsocce@unaffiliated/starsoccer] has quit [Excess Flood] 15:12 -!- orik [~orik@75.149.169.53] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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#bitcoin-wizards 22:46 -!- lclc_bnc is now known as lclc 22:48 -!- koshii_ [~0@node-71l.pool-101-108.dynamic.totbb.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:50 -!- koshii [~0@node-19e4.pool-125-24.dynamic.totbb.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:53 -!- kgk [~kgk@76.14.85.43] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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