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09:17 < op_mul> oh look. ethereum came up with with another bullshit proof of work system.
09:17 < op_mul> https://github.com/ethereum/wiki/wiki/Dagger-Hashimoto
09:18 < op_mul> "Hashimoto aims to simultaneously satisfy two goals.. ASIC-resistance"
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09:28 < op_mul> seems to be yet another case of "sergio owned out last stuff, here's one that's 100 times more complex so he doesn't do it again"
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09:30 < MRL-Relay> [tacotime] "Hashimoto uses the blockchain as a source of data, simultaneously satisfying (1) and (3) above." Hmm.
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09:32 < op_mul> tacotime: recovered from git. "3. **Full chain storage**: mining should require storage of the complete blockchain state (due to the irregular structure of the Ethereum state trie, we anticipate that some pruning will be possible, particularly of some often-used contracts, but we want to minimize this)."
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09:34 < op_mul> looks like they had the same problem as Monero in that their proof of work turned out to be a DOS risk due to it being so slow to verify. so you actually end up doing two sets of proof of work just to counteract that.
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09:34 < MRL-Relay> [tacotime] Well, if you make the algorithms so complicated that there's a significant barrier to entry in coding optimized versions of them, maybe they're a new class of "optimization resistant" hashing algorithms.
09:37 < op_mul> I'm struggling to comprehend most of the design decisions, let alone trying to think how you could possibly optimise around them.
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09:39 < MRL-Relay> [tacotime] op_mul: I just stopped doing that after looking at the source code I guess. You could spend months trying to figure out what everything is doing exactly.
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09:41 < MRL-Relay> [tacotime] Unless Ethereum becomes the magic internet currency of the world in 2015, I'm presently satisfied with ignoring it for the time being I guess, because Vitalik constant cranks so many new complex theories and modifies the original design to such an extent that it's really fatiguing to follow.
09:41 < op_mul> which client has this mining code in it? the javascript, cpp, python, go or java implementation?
09:41 < op_mul> ah it has it's own repo in cpp.
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09:53 < op_mul> tacotime: yeah. I'm really struggling to parse this one. the sort of useless snippets of the "algorithm" aren't helping (a function that just runs another function and returns the result is not an algorithm). suppose research resistant does work.
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09:55 < MRL-Relay> [tacotime] You could always make the hash algorithm "subjective" and run it under trusted computing to make sure it's not using any optimized algorithms to mine that might make allow you to do something they didn't intend. :>
09:57 < op_mul> Can't Be Evil
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16:05 < gmaxwell> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=949942.0  kind of disappointing that the author seems to have been somehow unaware of the state of the art in development (e.g. that Bitcoin core has validated off a utxo database for years now)
16:05 < gmaxwell> roconnor: perhaps of particular interest to you ^
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16:10 < kanzure> .title
16:10 < yoleaux> Ledger Theory Coq Development
16:12 < gwillen> interesting that they're working in Coq though
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16:13 < kanzure> i have been meaning to pay a coq person to show up in here
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16:13 < kanzure> perhaps i will pay him to review (and/or fix?) that work instead
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16:15 < gmaxwell> there are coq people in here. (thus my bringing that to roconnor's attention)
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16:16 < kanzure> oh good
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18:10 < roconnor> cute
18:11 < gmaxwell> post by the author here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=949880.0
18:14 < roconnor> I'll have to read this later
18:14 < kanzure> .title
18:14 < yoleaux> Lightweight Cryptos without Block Chain Bloat (Coq Development and Paper)
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18:19 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, it's not exactly SPV security
18:19 < phantomcircuit> you can take the UTXO from 2 weeks ago and replay the full blocks until now
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18:19 < phantomcircuit> which gets you better than spv, but worse than a full node
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18:20 < gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: it's strictly weaker SPV security with an equal block confirmation count.  It's not 1:1 but the places where it's a win aren't super clear to me.
18:21 < phantomcircuit> " equal block confirmation count" hum?
18:22 < gmaxwell> e.g. if you'd take a utxo set from 2016 blocks back, then waiting 2016 blocks on a payment is strictly more secure. As in there is no attack where a 2016 block reorg would trick a SPV wallet there but couldn't just be used for your UTXO set syncers.
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18:24 < gmaxwell> It complicates if you are using 'what miners could have gotten out of their attack' (e.g. an economic security assumption) rather than just "I'm assuming most hashpower will be honest no matter what".
18:25 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, possibly we're talking about different modes of spv operation, a trivial spv client would not trace the graph for it's transactions back to a coinbase
18:25 < phantomcircuit> for such a client the utxo commitment is of substantial benefit
18:25 < phantomcircuit> well...
18:25 < phantomcircuit> it's of benefit
18:25 < gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: huh. nope not at all.
18:25 < gmaxwell> read what I wrote again.
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18:26 < gmaxwell> If you just accept the commitment at height X then it could (possibly) contain _anything_. You're just trusting it.  Okay, well you could also just trust a regular old SPV transaction at that height. You're trusting height X completely.
18:26 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, oh
18:26 < phantomcircuit> yes we agree there
18:27 < phantomcircuit> im saying that the ability to walk from the trusted point many blocks ago to the tip provides a benefit over spv
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18:27 < gmaxwell> Right, and the tracing example shows that you can also get 'in between' with a 'tracing SPV'
18:27 < phantomcircuit> k
18:28 < phantomcircuit> it's difficult to discuss this stuff
18:28 < phantomcircuit> easy with a whiteboard :/
18:28 < gmaxwell> Sure I'm not saying it's useless, but at the limit it's the SPV security model; it's not free from a security perspective. And if you were really happy with SPV you could just use that.  So I'm unsure of the utility.
18:29 < gmaxwell> esp since a committed UTXO set comes with a (say) 20 fold IO increase for full nodes in additional cost updating the utxo set hashes.
18:31 < phantomcircuit> wouldn't the normal full node only have to calculate the utxo set hash once when the block was checked?
18:31 < phantomcircuit> oh right that actually is a huge cost
18:32 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, utxo commitments every 2016 blocks? :P
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18:34 < gmaxwell> if the UTXO set is large compared to the transaction count in N blocks, then the gain from batching is small; and of course it's not nice to have a big burst of cost all at once.
18:38 < phantomcircuit> true
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19:45 < everettForth> when is that bitcoin roundtable thing?
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19:46 < sipa> #bitcoin
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--- Log closed Mon Feb 09 00:00:11 2015