--- Log opened Sat Feb 14 00:00:54 2015
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00:04 < bramc> By the way everybody, I think Vitalik is smarter than he's generally given credit for, although he's in over his head.
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00:07 < jcorgan> I've been away for a while, haven't kept up with Ethereum at all, basically since there first big round of funding.
00:08 < jcorgan> their*
00:08 < jcorgan> My original impression of VB after meeting him in person was smart but naive.  I expect that has been borne out.
00:09 < bramc> Yes that's true. If he were just piddling around with Bitcoin helping out and gaining experience everyone would think highly of him.
00:12 < jcorgan> A presentation he did last July indicated a release in December.  Did anything like that happen?
00:12 < bramc> Although unfortunately right now people don't even want to help him because of that whole fear of getting thrown in jail thing.
00:13 < jcorgan> um
00:13 < jcorgan> i must have really missed something
00:13 < gmaxwell> Me too.
00:14 < bramc> I for one got asked to help audit ethereum, and I was like oh no sorry too busy
00:14 < bramc> Because the whole way it raised money might have some... issues... with the SEC, and I'm steering clear.
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00:15 < gmaxwell> I've not heard anyone express that view at least; I for one wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot poll because it's been an unreviewable evershifting hairball, and very likely to be harmful to the reputation of anyone who gets their name anywhere one it.
00:15 < gmaxwell> s/one/on/
00:16 < jcorgan> ^^ ok, so basically, the same state of affairs as a six months ago
00:16 < bramc> gmaxwell, That's another issue, see also 'in over his head'
00:16 < gmaxwell> Response to review in the past was to introduce more complexity, not back off and simplify to get a design which is reviewable.
00:17 < bramc> programmers learn to simplify from experience, people should gain experience before trying to do a whole big project
00:17 < jcorgan> sometimes experience is trying to implement the initial naive understanding of something and getting hit upside the head for it
00:18 < bramc> Before I did my project I had 20 solid years of coding experience including 5 years of being professionally employed doing it. Granted I was 25, but the raw age number can be misleading.
00:18 < gmaxwell> not to mention the extreme sleeze on the business side and on the attribution side from that camp.
00:19 < jcorgan> i'd expect then that there would be angry investors by now
00:20 < gmaxwell> well, that would be self defeating.
00:20 < jcorgan> hmm, yeah, i can see that
00:20 < bramc> jcorgan, They don't have investors, remember? It's a kickstarter for virtual goods, they give no impression that those goods will be worth something. It isn't an unlicensed financial instrument, really, it isn't. Even though people paid for it.
00:20 < gmaxwell> :(
00:20 < jcorgan> sorry, i'm a little hazy on the details from back then
00:21 < gmaxwell> (that was tongue in cheek)
00:23 < gmaxwell> bramc: if you have any more concrete reasons why someone wouldn't want to take contract money for them it would likely be helpful to share with people here; ... I know some people in here have or were planning on doing paid review (in some cases under conditions of pseudonymity to avoid the reputation problems).  When I'd been asked for my opinion I'd just mostly expressed the reputation and hope
00:23 < gmaxwell> lessness concerns, I hadn't thought anyone would get implicated in the unlicensed security nonsense.
00:25 < gmaxwell> kind of makes me feel ill to think about that; while I don't respect the engineering work (and I think you credit a bit too much: a lot of things being published are other people's work, recycled, and stripped of attribution in varrious degrees); I don't want to see anyone in legal hot water. And to the extent that any of them were knowingly doing something wrong wrt seperating fools from their m
00:25 < gmaxwell> oney, those people have likely since flewn the coop.
00:26 < bramc> gmaxwell, I'm very uncertain that they won't get a serious smackdown for unlicensed securities, it all depends on whether they made any representations that ether could get financial return. Given the fundamental nature of what the kickstarter was, I find the claim that that wasn't at least implicit very dubious.
00:27 < bramc> gmaxwell, doing contract review work for auditing and only auditing is probably fine, accepting any equity or ether for services is much more dangerous.
00:27 < petertodd> bramc: I don't accept equity from any company interesting enough that I want to work there...
00:28 < jcorgan> yeah, that would be cash or btc only for me, but that's mostly theoretical as my professional skills are elsewhere
00:28 < petertodd> bramc: though ethereum paid enough money to lawyers that they may be ok - it's a very specific legal structure
00:28 < gmaxwell> Yes, I think any claim otherwise is complete pretext and BS. It's transparent enough what the deal was, and there is a ton of recorded public communication that someone can dig through to make that case.  Though they spent a lot of time/money attorney shopping and so if there is some procedural protection possible, presumably that have it.
00:29 < petertodd> being in Switzerland is a good start re: procedural protection...
00:29 < bramc> The sec is kind of like the irs - they have remarkable abilities to cut through the crap, piling on more lawyers might not help you.
00:29 < petertodd> bramc: otoh, emphasis on "might"
00:30 < petertodd> hell, from that viewpoint, being a bitcoin developer *at all* is legally risky
00:30 < jcorgan> ?
00:30 < petertodd> jcorgan: you're participating in the creation of a financial system, especially for someone whose viewpoints are respected
00:31 < bramc> petertodd, It is possible to have careful legal strategies for companies developing worthwhile technology. My company has over 100 employees, and notably I'm not in jail.
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00:31 < petertodd> bramc: well, for starts make your technology be non-finance related :P
00:31 < petertodd> bramc: (my comment above only applies to stuff in the bitcoin space really)
00:31 < jcorgan> i don't anticipate we are anywhere near the point where participating in the creation of bitcoin is considered even the minutest threat to those who might wield that power
00:32 < bramc> petertodd, Being a bitcoin developer is not inherently risk, but you need to be careful what you do and don't do.
00:32 < bramc> petertodd, Remember what I do for a living. The whole p2p space is full of pitfalls.
00:32 < petertodd> jcorgan: you really misunderstand how this stuff works - it's not about being a "threat"
00:33 < jcorgan> perhaps.  educate me
00:33 < petertodd> jcorgan: all you need is the wrong circumstance to have some prosecuter/regulator looking for something to make their name with
00:33 < jcorgan> sure, i get that
00:33 < bramc> If engaging in what a normal person would consider criminal behavior in finance would land you in jail, there would be a lot more wall street types in jail.
00:33 < petertodd> jcorgan: then you run into the problem that legally speaking, laws are fucking vague, to the point where it's certainly plausible that courts would see participants in the development of a finance system be responsible for it
00:34 < petertodd> jcorgan: sure, maybe that's a 5% chance? but a 5% chance of your life getting ruined is *huge*
00:34 < petertodd> jcorgan: base jumping is only something like 30% IIRC
00:34 < jcorgan> heh
00:35 < petertodd> bramc: lol, no I don't remember quite what you do for a living :)
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00:36 < jcorgan> the vagueness is certainly an asset to prosecutors, but i think at this stage it would be something that would be looked at as a strategy when something else was being prosecuted.  like when charges are piled on in order to get a plea for the real offense.
00:36 < jcorgan> maybe i'm underestimating the stature that bitcoin/cryptocurrencies have with the current PTB :)
00:36 < petertodd> jcorgan: maybe? maybe not. point is we are *not* in the clear legally
00:37 < bramc> petertodd, There's a heirarchy of risks. Working on core technology is unlikely to land you in trouble. Working on a service can cause problems depending what it is. Selling virtual goods can cause problems depending on a lot of subtle (or from another standpoint not so subtle) details. Selling things which are labelled as unlicensed returns-making instruments or overt money laundering services will land your ass directl
00:37 < bramc> y in jail.
00:37 < bramc> petertodd, I honestly don't know if you're kidding. I made another p2p system.
00:38 < petertodd> jcorgan: prior to starting this stuff full time i sat down with some lawyers with finance/sec experience, and they basically said "understand that what you're doing is probably something you *could* go to jail for, and understand that the way this actually works is politics - so keep a good image and don't be the obvious guy to go after"
00:38 < bramc> "I don't have to outright a tiger, I just have to outrun you"
00:39 < jcorgan> agree that it all boils down to politics
00:39 < petertodd> jcorgan: for instance, the debate over whether or not I'm a "core developer" is legally less risky than people who the bitcoin foundation calls core devs, let alone being "lead dev" or "chief scientist"
00:39 < petertodd> jcorgan: which is why I as quickly as possible took on mutliple "chief scientist" roles...
00:39 < petertodd> bramc: I think I know who you are, but IRC names are confusing :)
00:40 < bramc> But if satoshi nakamoto went public with his identity, he would be extremely unlikely to wind up in trouble with the sec, because we are in fact a country ruled by laws and he was unambiguously on the clear side of them. Now the irs, that's another story...
00:40 < petertodd> bramc: re "working on core tech" - that's not really clear, if the tech itself gets into legal issues you'd be smart to get away form working on it ASAP
00:40 < jcorgan> maybe i've been away too long, but it still seems to me that bitcoin is still very small fry in the grand scheme of global finance, and we're there just not that into us...yet.
00:41 < jcorgan> /w'ere/d
00:41 < petertodd> jcorgan: one of the issues there is that can change *really* quickly
00:41 < jcorgan> agree
00:41 < jcorgan> perhaps i should update my priors
00:41 < bramc> jcorgan, the laws regarding such things are more clear than you seem to think
00:42 < petertodd> jcorgan: like, if there's another 9/11 and it turned out the terrorists used bitcoin extensively
00:42 < petertodd> jcorgan: and hell, that may be a retroactive change in legal status
00:42 < jcorgan> heh.  i'm usually the paranoid one of the crowd.  weird to be on the other side :)
00:43 < petertodd> jcorgan: well, the risk doesn't bother me *that* much per-se, but I really think people in different circumstances than me should understand what they may be getting into
00:43 < bramc> petertodd, If you were to write some piece of code and say 'this piece of code is for people to launder money with', then yeah that could land you in trouble. That's fairly easy to avoid though.
00:43 < petertodd> bramc: possible to avoid? yes. easy? I don't think so
00:43 < bramc> petertodd, my /whois gives my real name, I'm identity consistent that way
00:44 < petertodd> bramc: hehe, yeah, that's who I thought :)
00:44 < petertodd> bramc: I think the big issue for bitcoin is convention finance is *really* built around KYC and the notion that governments should have -in the end - complete control over the system
00:44 < petertodd> bramc: can that change? sure. will it? I can't exactly guarantee that
00:44 < jcorgan> i don't know whether to be excited, afraid, or indifferent to the fact that smart people i respect are debating bitcoin's real impact in this area
00:45 < bramc> petertodd, The mouthing off is easy to avoid. Even things like unlinking of transactions are clearly justifiable for the same reason that you don't take a photograph of the receipt of every purchase you make and post it online.
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00:45 < petertodd> bramc: yeah, but the counter-arguement to that is "why are you working to subvert government at all? change the system"
00:46 < jcorgan> petertodd: "if you don't like ISIS, join them and change the system from the inside"
00:46 < bramc> petertodd, subverting the government is totally legal if done in the right way. For example you're allowed to run for office. That's 'subverting the government'
00:46 < petertodd> jcorgan: within finance even the notion that you should be able to guarntee things with crypto rather than human auditing is fairly revolutionary
00:46 < petertodd> bramc: yes, and creating a crypto-currency isn't necessarily the "right" way :)
00:47 < bramc> petertodd, There certainly are risks that legislation could be passed tomorrow which would make certain cryptocurrency-related activities a very bad idea. That would require actual legislation though, and one would know if it passed
00:48 < petertodd> bramc: well, what can I say, the lawyers I've talked to think existing legislation is more than enough to put bitcoin core devs in jail *if* the political will was there to do it - laws are very flexible
00:49 < petertodd> bramc: and hell, they'd just threaten you with some insane sentence and get you to accept a plea deal
00:49 < gmaxwell> bramc: you should see this BBC interview transcript with Amir (and also Petertodd) where it sounded like amir was saying things like cryptocurrency is good because it helps ISIS. (I'm sure I'm butchering that horribly but you can extract things like that).  Not your words perhaps, but .. ugh. It's certantly a space where regardless of how boring and justified your own motivations are it might be
00:49 < gmaxwell> hard to disentangle the guilt by association with some rather strong views.
00:49 < petertodd> gmaxwell: heh, yeah, that BBC interview caused so much fuss someone released an unedited video of it
00:50 < gmaxwell> people accused the BBC of editing the video to make his views look more extreme, but really the unedited transcript showed that if anything the toned it down.
00:50 < petertodd> gmaxwell: though the way it edited *amir* was actually reasonably accurate
00:50 < bramc> gmaxwell, Yeah that, uh, doesn't help. I've always made very clear that, for example, I think Jim Bell is a homicidal psycho and I want nothing to do with him in any way shape or form
00:50 < petertodd> gmaxwell: lol, exactly
00:51 < jcorgan> jim bell is still around?
00:51 < jcorgan> my goodness, that brings back 20 yro memories
00:51 < gmaxwell> bramc: I never could quite tell how serious Jim Bell's stuff was. At least as a thought expirement it was interesting; (and has contributed to me generally feeling pretty uneasy about prediction markets and spending a lot of time trying to figure out if it's possible to structure them to be less useful for harmful uses)
00:52 < bramc> jcorgan, https://cpunks.wordpress.com/2013/09/20/jim-bell-re-subscribed-to-the-cypherpunks-list/
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00:52 < petertodd> bramc: I'm quite happy to take a risk there, and (publicly) take the viewpoint that bad stuff will come out of bitcoin, but it inherently favors individuals who are inherently more likely to be good
00:52 < gmaxwell> jcorgan: I think he's out of jail now.
00:52 < petertodd> bramc: e.g. in the BBC interview I brought up how bitcoin's very nature is a threat to ISIS, in that example
00:52 < jcorgan> well, aren't these interesting times
00:53 < petertodd> bramc: but someone's gotta say stuff like that, and I don't have kids so...
00:53 < gmaxwell> "It’s a poor atom blaster that won’t point both ways."  indeed, I often make the point that there are negative uses, as there are for _all_ technology.
00:53 < petertodd> yup
00:54 < bramc> Tor (which I've also had a hand in) is a great example of a controversial thing which currently has a mostly good reputation.
00:54 < petertodd> I also like making the point that western civilization is way more than strong enough to tolerate terrorism and other badness
00:54 < petertodd> bramc: yeah, that project does a great job on PR
00:56 < gmaxwell> it helps that its primarily been funded by VoA (effectively the state departments' propaganda arm), that gives ou a free pass that no amount of snazzy positioning can accomplish.
00:57 < bramc> gmaxwell, It also helps that it appears to mostly be used to get around foreign countrywide firewalls
00:57 < petertodd> gmaxwell: yes, and notice how staying funded by VoA is a product of great PR...
00:57 < jcorgan> an appealing property of bitcoin as a finance system is that it is defined by math and physics, not humans, so the uses people put it to are entirely up to them, and those individuals would take the blame or credit for good and bad that comes from it
00:57 < petertodd> bramc: and arguably, designed too
00:57 < petertodd> jcorgan: humans define the math and physics
00:58 < gmaxwell> petertodd: bitcoin also can fit into that model of social/economic warfare (esp against places with strong currency controls, e.g. china). Rev your grant proposals.
00:58 < petertodd> jcorgan: that just makes bitcoin resilliant, doesn't necessarily change the legal situation of the people involved
00:59 < bramc> petertodd, Tor's architecture is something I scribbled on a napkin, so the intention of the architecture is mostly technical. The intention of the early funding does appear to be that it would be used to subvert foreign countrywide firewalls, so that's going to plan.
00:59 < petertodd> gmaxwell: absolutely! shit, I met a DoJ prosecutor recently who wanted to meet with me further, and sounded like hire me as a consultant, and like half the discussion I had with some Tor people about that situation was "it's a pity the FBI isn't trying to overthrow governments"
00:59 < petertodd> :)
01:00 < bramc> The state department and FBI have very different opinions of tor
01:00 < petertodd> bramc: the main thing that makes you wonder about tor is how it only has low-latency options; if it had both it'd be more clearly designed for something other than bypassing foreign government firewalls
01:00 < petertodd> bramc: indeed
01:01 < bramc> petertodd, It doesn't have high-latency options because people are only interested in web browsing.
01:01 < gmaxwell> well see the alpha-mix paper that roger co-authored; but no one is funding that development.  No reason to think they wouldn't take patches if offered.
01:01 < petertodd> gmaxwell: yeah, I suspect the extent of any subversion there is just funding - Tor's internal culture seems quite independent of their funders
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01:05 < bramc> tor seems to suffer from a lack of core devs, unfortunately. Its basic core functionality could use more hands.
01:06 < petertodd> bramc: agreed
01:06 < petertodd> bramc: lack of money contributes to that - tor devs don't exactly earn much
01:07 < bramc> There are also basic performance things which I could have explained to them years in advance. Which makes me think I should poke my nose in more often. At the moment the bottleneck doesn't seem to be knowing what needs to be fixed so much as having hands to fix it though.
01:07 < petertodd> it is a surprisingly small project
01:09 < fluffypony> I wonder if some of the "internal" Tor sites are going to move to i2p
01:09 < fluffypony> there's been a small shift of a handful of them
01:10 < fluffypony> but nobody major
01:10 < petertodd> fluffypony: hopefully not - i2p isn't sybil resistant
01:10  * jcorgan lols that -wizards seems to have the conversational content that #bitcoin had 2 years ago 
01:10 < petertodd> fluffypony: the annoying thing about Tor is the fact that it's a highly centralized system is what makes it actually work, assuming the poeple running it are trustworthy
01:12 < bramc> jcorgan, The occasional digression into political and legal issues is totally reasonable. Mostly it's highly technical discussions in here, frequently about goofball blue sky stuff.
01:12 < bramc> For example, most of the discussions earlier today.
01:12 < fluffypony> to some degree Tor suffers the same Sybil issues - creating poisoned relays is trivial
01:12 < fluffypony> eg. http://blog.torproject.org/blog/june-2010-progress-report
01:12 < jcorgan> sure.  i meant it as a compliment.
01:13 < petertodd> fluffypony: sure, but it has the infrastructure to detect this stuff and respond, precisely because trusted people are running the show
01:14 < petertodd> fluffypony: there just isn't any simple alternative to that
01:22 < Taek> it's hard to think of a way to incentivize something like tor, because presumably the node could rat you out for increased pay, and nobody would be the wiser
01:23 < petertodd> Taek: absolutely - all these bitcoin guys trying to do exactly that really scares many of the tor devs
01:23 < bramc> In case anyone was curious, in that linked post by Jim Bell the scheme he's talking about to make fiber optic cables out of isotopically enriched silicon is pure wingnut.
01:24 < petertodd> bramc: ...and brilliant audiophile
01:24 < gmaxwell> lol.
01:24 < gmaxwell> Kaching.
01:25 < gmaxwell> "Heavy silica produces the densest lows of any transport technology. The spectral warmth cannot be described with words, it must be expirenced. Coming to Sky Mall 2016."
01:25 < bramc> Everything sounds better in a room containing mostly nitrogen-15!
01:26 < petertodd> gmaxwell: that was so close to being a good start to an HP Lovecraft story...
01:26 < petertodd> gmaxwell: "The Spectral Warmth Out of Space"
01:28 < realcr> Taek: If nodes rat you for increased pay, you might be able to pick another one, and get some kind of market.
01:28 < petertodd> realcr: how would you ever no?
01:28 < petertodd> *know
01:29 < realcr> I have some ideas for this.
01:29 < realcr> You might be able to try sending small messages through different nodes, and see which one of them arrives.
01:29 < realcr> It will cost some "money" to try, but you will get some idea.
01:29 < petertodd> realcr: that proves nothing about whether or not the nodes are logging your connections
01:30 < realcr> petertodd: I don't know much about structures like TOR, but if you do it inside a mesh network like CJDNS, it might be possible. At least in my opinion.
01:30 < realcr> Some nodes might overprice their networking services, but your messages will find their way around them.
01:31 < petertodd> realcr: that's a different problem then what Tor is trying to solve
01:31 < petertodd> realcr: Tor is about anonymity, not delivery
01:31 < realcr> petertodd: You are right.
01:31 < realcr> But I think it could be combined. Assuming that you manage to incentivize a mesh, you could build TOR above it.
01:32 < gmaxwell> one of the concerns I've had with "compensate for running nodes" is that it seemed even more vulnerable to "lots of people get paid to run spy nodes", because it would shift the network composition more towards economically motivated, who might be more interested in accepting an offer to increase their income a bit by submitting logs. (and the logs could easily be verifyably faithful, since you'd
01:32 < gmaxwell>  run test circuts through nodes to make sure they showed up in logs)
01:32 < petertodd> realcr: ^
01:32 < petertodd> realcr: paying money for something radically changes the incentives and type of people you attract
01:33 < realcr> petertodd: I know. But I believe it could be a good thing. I have to admit I don't fully understand what you talk about with the logs, because I lack knowledge about how it works.
01:33 < realcr> What are the logs?
01:33 < realcr> I'm sorry if I'm asking something trivial around here :)
01:34 < gmaxwell> e.g. just a patch to log all your in/out circuits and submit the data with a bitcoin address once a day to a hidden service. If your data includes the test circuits, you get paid. Probably not much, but it could be non-trivial compared to your overall compensation... and that may well be enough if you were running the thing to make money, rather than running it for non-economic motivations (suppo
01:34 < petertodd> realcr: you really don't understand the problem... the issue is a node operator keeping logs of the traffic passing through their node
01:34 < gmaxwell> rting free speech, free though, personal autotomy, undermining foreign nations, etc.)
01:34 < Taek> Could one theoretically create a system where logging is tolerable at any percentage?
01:34 < realcr> petertodd: Is he paid by the logs?
01:34 < realcr> petertodd: I seem to really not understand it.
01:34 < Taek> If all communications are end-to-end encrypted, you could send bogus communications to random parties
01:34 < gmaxwell> Taek: not an efficient one. Thats the tradeoff.
01:35 < petertodd> realcr: the point is it is impossible to know whether or not someone is keeping logs, that's 100% based on trust
01:35 < realcr> petertodd: I agree, but If my traffic is encrypted, why would I care about the logs?
01:35 < petertodd> realcr: by paying people, you attract people motivated by money, not ethics
01:35 < realcr> Is it about the metadata?
01:35 < petertodd> realcr: encryption does not prevent the node operator from knowing who you are talking too, the reason why tor exists
01:36 < petertodd> realcr: anyway, go learn more about Tor
01:36 < Taek> gmaxwell: if we throw efficiency out the door, what would a solution be? Hiding real communications inside of bogus communications works until you talk to a honeypot - suddenly your illegal activity is revealed. Are there other methods?
01:36 < realcr> petertodd: You mean that the last node on the chain logs my external communication?
01:36 < gmaxwell> petertodd: not just attract, but e.g. if there 1 person motivated by money for every 10 motivated by ethics, the money motivated ones may still have a much larger share of the network, since the money motivated people are prone to scale out in the way the ethically motivated ones are not.
01:36 < petertodd> gmaxwell: that's a good point
01:37 < petertodd> gmaxwell: the only VPN I use is run by a guy I've personally met... at a Tor conference
01:37 < realcr> gmaxwell: I think that without incentivizing networking using some robust kind of economy, problems like DoS can not be solved.
01:37 < gmaxwell> Taek: you create quadratic or worse traffic. e.g. every node sends a constant bitrate to every node in the network. Even this is vulnerable to confirmation attacks, but it has basic immunity to passive traffic monitoring, but the overhead is insane.
01:38 < gmaxwell> realcr: hashcash and other similar tools can be use to mitigate DOS without creating the incentives problems.
01:38 < gmaxwell> (not that they don't have their own shortcomings)
01:38 < gmaxwell> In practice tor works remarkably well.
01:39 < realcr> gmaxwell: I have to agree about that. TOR does work pretty well.
01:40 < Taek> I've been inclined to doubt the integrity of Tor over the past year and a half. Many of the cp sites have experienced takedowns and I've chosen to read that as a dead canary.
01:40 < realcr> gmaxwell: While hashcash and similars can make DoS harder to perform, they are not as efficient as: "If you are DoSing me it means I make lots of money, so go ahead."
01:40 < gmaxwell> (E.g. the act of _paying_ mitigates the dos, the act of recieving payment changes the incentives of node operators. It's possible to do the first without the second.)
01:40 < realcr> But why wouldn't someone be paid for its service?
01:41 < gmaxwell> realcr: unfortunately, that goes hand and had with "yea, I don't care if you're using all the BW and denying human rights activists access to the system... money money money. plus, more money when I sell everyone's logs. hurray. money money. lemme spin up more nodes, this rocks."
01:41 < petertodd> Taek: I don't doubt the integrity; I doubt the competence of people running .onion sites
01:41 < petertodd> Taek: equally, the # of hosts for .onion sites is surprisingly small
01:42 < realcr> gmaxwell: I think I have to learn about the logs thingy.
01:42 < realcr> gmaxwell: I obviously miss something here.
01:42 < petertodd> Taek: and of course, for all the sites taken down, there have been relatively few arrests
01:42 < jcorgan> Taek: in line with what petertodd said, Tor doesn't make much difference when the sites themselves are vulnerable to exploits
01:43 < petertodd> jcorgan: probably the biggest thing that Freenet gets right that Tor doesn't is Freenet naturally leads to secure sites, because you don't have to host them
01:43 < gmaxwell> Taek: not a great canary. For one, people doing that stuff enjoy no protection. I wouldn't doubt for a minute that a lot of decent technical people are happily chipping away at finding those places and turning them in who wouldn't go after something that was less tasteless (and bringing bad reputation to the system).  You'd have to be somewhat fundimentally insane to run such a thing, so expected
01:43 < gmaxwell>  result is expected.
01:43 < bramc> Does freenet even have any real deployments?
01:44 < gmaxwell> I mean, it's a production network in actual use. It's slow and irritating to use, generally. But it works (or did last time I found it).
01:44 < gmaxwell> The low median clicks to child porn make it less enjoyable to use than it migth be otherwise. :(
01:44 < petertodd> bramc: yes, last I checked a few months ago there's maybe an order of magnitude less sites than Tor
01:44 < realcr> bramc: What do you mean by real deployments?
01:45 < petertodd> gmaxwell: I suspect Freenet ends up that way because it actually works - anyone else with less stringent security requirements uses Tor
01:45 < bramc> realcr, I mean for years it was an ever-shifting piece of quasi-vaporware
01:45 < realcr> bramc: It does work though. And have lots of stuff inside (And lots of porn, as mentioned above).
01:45 < petertodd> bramc: huh? I'd describe it as something that simply never had that much demand, considering it's inherent poor performance
01:45 < petertodd> (I've been following freenet since it started)
01:46 < realcr> But it's a great proof of concept that this is possible.
01:46 < Luke-Jr> bramc: so you were suggesting meeting in the bay area to discuss your stuff?
01:46 < petertodd> my first introduction to crypto actually IIRC
01:46 < realcr> I am willing to surf a bit slowly if it is more secure.
01:46 < petertodd> realcr: Freenet isn't a "bit" slower, it's orders of magnitude slower than .onion sites
01:46 < realcr> petertodd: I wonder what Ian Clark is doing these days.
01:46 < gmaxwell> petertodd: well I think some of it is just lazy... people link to things without looking, and a couple hops go by... that you can get to some sketchy stuff if you try doesn't concern me, that you can land on it just basically clicking around randomly without intending it, is another matter.
01:47 < realcr> petertodd: But it does something differenet. You website is stored in a distributed manner on other nodes.
01:47 < bramc> Luke-Jr, Yeah it would be good to meet up with people, the only time I've chatted with the local bitcoin devs in person was at the whatsitcalled launch party, and that was very brief
01:47 < bramc> And I of course have a lot more stuff to discuss now
01:48 < bramc> petertodd, little known piece of trivia, I worked at mojo nation
01:49 < petertodd> bramc: ha, I knew that
01:49 < realcr> bramc: Somehow I looked at the nick and didn't guess it was you.
01:49 < Luke-Jr> bramc: I'm not sure what my schedule is like, but I'm here until Wednesday
01:50 < petertodd> bramc: Mojo was a centrally controlled currency right?
01:50 < bramc> Luke-Jr, unfortunately I'm way swamped for the next two weeks
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01:51 < Luke-Jr> oh
01:51 < realcr> petertodd: I think it was, with some kind of micropayments.
01:52 < bramc> petertodd, I wouldn't go so far as say that mojo nation was fleshed out enough to make any such coherent claims about it. The short answer is yes, but the only part of the money system which seemed to work was the short term credit granting between counterparties. Hence BitTorrent's simplified tit-for-tat system
01:52 < bramc> Luke-Jr, Although if you could come to my offices or are somewhere downtown on tuesday that could work
01:52 < petertodd> bramc: ah, I've never seen a clear description - so that wasn't really ever put into production?
01:53 < bramc> petertodd, There's this fuzzy distinction between 'public beta' and 'in production'
01:53 < petertodd> bramc: heh
01:54 < petertodd> bramc: and certainly nothing to prevent double-spends more fancy than a central server(s) right?
01:54 < Luke-Jr> bramc: maybe a group of us can go there?
01:55 < bramc> petertodd, Correct, it was just a single central server
01:55 < bramc> Luke-Jr, Sure, I don't even know who's around
01:56 < bramc> I'm bad enough with names when people aren't going by Guest267
01:56 < Luke-Jr> bramc: what time would be best? and what address?
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02:17 < bramc> Okay everybody, I'm passing out, good night.
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06:52 < kanzure> https://github.com/basil00/PseudoNode "To the network, PseudoNode appears to be a normal full node. It relays invs, txs, blocks, etc. just like a full node. In reality, PseudoNode is a type of p2p proxy server. It merely forwards any request it cannot handle (getdata, getheaders, etc.) to neighboring nodes.  PseudoNode uses no disk (no blockchain download required), uses little CPU/RAM, and uses less network resources (bandwidth) than ...
06:52 < kanzure> ... a normal full node. A PseudoNode can "sync" with the network within seconds. It is difficult to prove that a full node is really a full node."
06:53 < nsh> heh
06:54 < nsh> this probably nominally improves the gossip proliferation but not sure it would have any other effect, except screwing people's notion of how many full nodes there are
06:54 < nsh> but i haven't thought hard about network stuff
06:56 < nsh> actually, it may even (again, nominally) facilitate partition attacks if you can shepherd pseudonodes to bolster the notional size of a partition
06:56 < nsh> or i could be talking pish
06:56 < kanzure> if you wish hard enough, the network disappears and is replaced with instantaneous unicorn magic
06:56  * nsh smiles
06:57 < kanzure> a network of these pseudonodes would probably DoS itself
06:57 < nsh> aye
06:58 < nsh> it might be fun trying some -- simulated, testnet -- experiments where you switch a bunch of nodes from full to pseudo/proxying
06:58 < nsh> and watch them storm each other to bits
06:59 < kanzure> (i hope you mean regtest)
06:59 < nsh> probably
06:59 < nsh> little t testnet, not big
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07:01 < nsh> maybe it's be nice if there was a dedicated protocol/incentive-effect test network actually well-distributed, with particular experiments scheduled and wide participation
07:01 < nsh> *it'd
07:02  * nsh reads https://geraldkaszuba.com/creating-your-own-experimental-bitcoin-network/
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07:04 < kanzure> all of that is pretty ridiculous
07:04 < kanzure> just use the scripts in the qa rpc tests folder in bitcoin.git
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10:47 < kanzure> https://blog.ethereum.org/2015/02/14/subjectivity-exploitability-tradeoff/
10:47  * kanzure gets popcorn
10:49  * nsh blinks
10:50 < kanzure> hahaha "Subjectivocracy is in some sense the ultimate non-coercive form of governance; no one is ever forced to accept a situation where they don’t get their own way, the only catch being that if you have policy preferences that are unpopular then you will end up on a fork where few others are left to interact with you."
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10:56 < kanzure> (bullying is obvious here and not mentioned at all. hilarious.)
10:56 < maaku> "x is obvious and not mentioned at all" <-- welcome to etherium
10:56  * nsh smiles
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11:04 < kanzure> maaku i am wordstealing you again, just fyi
11:04 < kanzure> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9050429
11:05 < maaku> kanzure: no worries, spread the word :)
11:06 < maaku> well nit pick: "fundamentally scarce resource, namely entropy" <-- should be negentropy
11:06 < maaku> entropy isn't scarce ;)
11:07 < kanzure> wasn't there a church of negentropy at some point
11:07 < kanzure> ah yes
11:07 < kanzure> http://www.orionsarm.com/eg-article/46cf7ca0904a7
11:07 < kanzure> .title
11:08 < maaku> and there may be other physics-based scarcities (e.g. availability of elements like gold), but I don't know of any quite as useful as (neg)entropy
11:08 < yoleaux> Orion's Arm - Encyclopedia Galactica - Negentropism
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11:11 < nsh> negentropy is physically scarce (and strictly globally increasingly so) but algorithmic entropy is also a limited resource
11:11 < nsh> which seems a bit counterintuitive
11:11 < fluffypony> eugh, that blog post
11:13 < maaku> nsh: "algorithmic entropy"?
11:13 < kanzure> warning nsh is a chaotic-neutral extropic being
11:13 < kanzure> or something...
11:14 < nsh> maaku, such as available entropy in an OS pool
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11:14 < nsh> of the amount of entropy in a cryptographic secret
11:14 < nsh> *and/or
11:14 < maaku> ah ok
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11:16 < gmaxwell> maaku: flatter our schemes all you want; we're still not letting you out of the box, machine!
11:16 < kanzure> i might have let him out of the box, my bad
11:17 < maaku> lol
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11:44 < nsh> gmaxwell, looking into the BGP dimensionality-frustrated consistenct and resultant oscillation that you mentioned yesterday and found this paper that claims to show that under certain configurations with route-reflection proving consistency degenerates to an NP-complete problem
11:44 < nsh> http://people.csail.mit.edu/arasala/papers/bgp.pdf
11:44 < nsh> *consistency
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11:45 < nsh> which seems interesting if there might be a way to relating the difficulty/complexity of consistency/consensus to underlying algebraic properties and might transfer to blockchain theory
11:49 < nsh> everything seems to come down to the relativity of ordering
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17:22 < instagibbs> ether post seems to be confusing what PoW is, and leaping to what a miner should rationally do to recoup his BTC he feels has been stolen from him by a re-org. Completely separate issues.
17:22 < kanzure> see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9050429
17:23 < instagibbs> The miner, although behind due to hidden fork, still knows the current state of the ledger just like every other node.
17:23 < instagibbs> yeah the responses are a little underwhelming to say the least
17:23 < kanzure> "PoW does to do with currency, in practice, because participating has a real cost"
17:23 < kanzure> hmm.
17:23 < instagibbs> I want to reply
17:24 < instagibbs> I typed out something like: Mining participation can be done for any reason: currency reward. altruism, to self-publish hashes of data, or because someone out there likes burning electricity for the hell of it. The usage link is strong today, possibly tenuous tomorrow.
17:26 < phantomcircuit> kanzure, i actually think that in general the economic rational behind mining is poorly understood
17:26 < instagibbs> trying to crawl into the head of a miner is impossible. We don't know their motivation
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17:26 < phantomcircuit> instagibbs, i kind of do
17:27 < instagibbs> heh, i mean definitionally
17:27 < instagibbs> I have certainly read of people wanting to mine for profit :)
17:27 < kanzure> "Your explanations are, of course, correct. You are just approaching this differently than he." yes correctness sucks huh
17:28 < kanzure> also the voting stuff again :/
17:29 < kanzure> are there any interesting (pre-blockchain) cryptosystems for voting that make sense and aren't bogus insecure death traps?
17:29 < amiller> instagibbs, are you gibbssampleplatter on reddit btw
17:29 < instagibbs> amiller: my terrible weak cover it blown
17:29 < amiller> kanzure, helios?
17:29 < instagibbs> is*
17:29 < kanzure> alright i will look at helios
17:30 < kanzure> the deus ex ai?
17:30 < amiller> https://www.usenix.org/legacy/events/sec08/tech/full_papers/adida/adida.pdf and https://vote.heliosvoting.org/docs
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17:32 < kanzure> ah interesting it's a multi-step protocol where the voter signs the result a second time
17:32 < kanzure> or er... something.
17:33 < kanzure> haha the coerce me button <3
17:34 < kanzure> amiller: do you see any resemblance between voting and mining? :/
17:34 < amiller> 1 cpu 1 vote 4 ever
17:35 < amiller> yeah i use the analogy to voting in my (ineffective) little schpiel to sell nonoutsourceable puzzles...
17:35 < amiller> you're legally not-allowed to sell your vote
17:37 < instagibbs> well in that case your "vote" is what to include in blocks, not the act of expending electricity. right?
17:37 < amiller> http://archive.flsenate.gov/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0104/SEC045.HTM&Title=-%3E2001-%3ECh0104-%3ESection%20045#0104.045
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17:38 < instagibbs> i mean hell, the current mining market makes a sham of the argument: nearly 100% of cloud miners don't give a fig what's included
17:39 < amiller> i think (admittedly biased in favor of promoting my own overcomplicated pet solutions involving weirdcrypto) that the current form is a pretty poor incentive system on the whole,
17:39 < amiller> but the high level idea, that you can improve something "like" voting by creating better-aligned incentives is pretty great
17:39 < amiller> the helios thing for example has some pretty cool features that i think are analogous to nonoutsourceable puzzles even
17:39 < instagibbs> improve the outcomes of voting, or how the voting happens, or?
17:40 < amiller> it's "coercion resistant", which means that you cannot prove after the fact how you vote
17:40 < justanotheruser> kanzure: are you still on the mining isn't voting thing?
17:40 < amiller> even if you wanted to
17:40 < kanzure> justanotheruser: i'm thinking about giving up on that
17:40 < amiller> in other words, while it's "illegal" to sell your vote, the helios evoting thing has a technical countermeasure that makes it difficult to do the thing that's illegal
17:42 < phantomcircuit> amiller, it's sufficient to make it impossible to prove to a third party that your vote was counted
17:44 < kanzure> if you can prove it to yourself then i think you would just be coerced to share that proof with a third party
17:44 < phantomcircuit> kanzure, think EDH
17:45 < kanzure> extra.. dimensional.. hashing?
17:45 < phantomcircuit> iono but im sure there's a construct in which you're sure your vote was counted but you cant prove it to a third party
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17:56 < justanotheruser> Could someone give me an update on the discussion of securing the network with an infinite supply of blockspace? The only obvious solution I can think of is a mining cartel forcing a fee.
17:58 < phantomcircuit> justanotheruser, que?
17:59 < instagibbs> http://t.co/VPsgVkdzj9
18:00 < instagibbs> tl;dr not that we know of?
18:01 < justanotheruser> phantomcircuit: if you have an infinite supply of blockspace, doesn't the fee approach zero?
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18:02 < phantomcircuit> justanotheruser, no it only approaches the cost of the orphan risk per byte
18:02 < instagibbs> phantomcircuit: and/or actual cost of processing such a transaction
18:02 < phantomcircuit> which is something that's missing from msot discussion
18:02 < phantomcircuit> instagibbs, that is roughly zero
18:02 < instagibbs> obviously the latter one is tiiiiny
18:03 < justanotheruser> the cost of processing the transactino shouldn't be considered because if it's enough to secure the network then it is enough to create a huge barrier of entry and economy of scale.
18:04 < instagibbs> umm it's considered, it just doesn't help security. I'm answering what the fees will approach
18:05 < justanotheruser> fair enough
18:05 < Taek> a solution that I like is having a second set of 'security fees' that get distributed over the next N blocks
18:05 < justanotheruser> phantomcircuit: Yes, that was how I understood it, but gmaxwell mentioned that that wasn't "fundamental" and I also don't understand that
18:05 < instagibbs> what are propagation orphan risks per KB look like these days
18:05 < Taek> which adds some security to bury your transaction under, but it still suffers from the freeloader problem
18:05 < instagibbs> Taek: once we approach 100% mining fees it may have to go that way or something like it, no?
18:06 < phantomcircuit> justanotheruser, you can remove most of the risk of an orphan through technical means
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18:06 < justanotheruser> phantomcircuit: by having all minings near each other?
18:07 < Taek> I'm fairly confident that mining fees as they work today will not be sufficient to secure a blockchain unless they are intentionally made scarce
18:07 < phantomcircuit> justanotheruser, no by having transactions already propogated to everybody
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18:09 < justanotheruser> oh right.
18:10 < instagibbs> My gut says no, but do the marginal fees required to overcome orphan risk actually help security?
18:10 < instagibbs> they're overcoming lost PoW it seems
18:10 < justanotheruser> You still have some latecy though
18:11 < justanotheruser> I'm not sure how much of the time is latency and how much is caused by low bandwidth
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18:12 < instagibbs> which brings me to the final quandry: how can any bitcoin-like system both predict how large the block needs to be to be both useful and scarce
18:13 < justanotheruser> by having infinite block space and artificial scarcity through a mandatory fee
18:14 < phantomcircuit> justanotheruser, doesn't work because of valuation fluctuations
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18:16 < justanotheruser> Do you think market forces wouldn't make the mining cartel optomize for profitability? If the fee is $1/tx, people will make less tx, miners will make less money etc.
18:16 < justanotheruser> I proposed that as a question because I have no idea and the idea may be completely insane.
18:18 < instagibbs> seems very similar to miners cartel-izing and limiting blocksizes to promote fees. Or people voting, or whatever
18:18 < phantomcircuit> justanotheruser, maybe but there's weird stuff about a single rogue participant followed by incentives to build weird block trees
18:19 < instagibbs> blocksize utilization rises and falls due to many forces, minimum required fee same thing
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18:20 < instagibbs> didnt mean to say "same reasons", just that there are many factors.
18:20 < justanotheruser> instagibbs: Miners can make way more money with a successful bitcoin than a 1MB blockspace bitcoin
18:21 < instagibbs> agreed. Just am getting more and more troubled with the economics of rational greedy mining :)
18:27 < justanotheruser> I don't think a mining cartel is very scary if mining can be decentralized to the point that 51% is thousands of people
18:28 < justanotheruser> would be interesting to see the citizens of iceland be the money processors for the world
18:28 < instagibbs> one man's cartel is another's soft-fork
18:32 < kanzure> amiller: you banned me from ##ketotic wtf dude
18:32 < amiller> no i didn't
18:32 < kanzure> http://gnusha.org/logs/2013-02-26.log
18:34 < kanzure> (actually i find this pretty funny, i'm sorry i didn't remember sooner)
18:38 < amiller> maybe i had a good reason, ill just hope that was the case
18:39 < instagibbs> and look how unrepentant he is. smh
18:41 < kanzure> well he banned someone else but i got caught in the ip address slaughter, whatever
18:43 < kanzure> "I am not aware of such things. I am here because I like to stalk "
18:43 < kanzure> "I am not aware of such things. I am here because I like to stalk zooko."
18:44 < kanzure> pretty funny. okay, back to hacking.
18:47 < smooth> the best i can think of given bitcoin's monetary rules is a mandatory fee burn
18:48 < smooth> (which then gets recycled as subsidy over some horizon)
18:49 < smooth> it still has the free rider problem though
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19:23 < Adlai> you shouldn't be able to prove it to yourself, in the same way that otr logs are worthless
19:24 < phantomcircuit> Adlai, OTR logs aren't useless to the original recipient
19:24 < phantomcircuit> also OTR logs aren't useless in most cases
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19:25 < Adlai> perhaps i misunderstand OTR then; isn't it possible for anybody to construct fake logs after the session is over?
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19:27  * Adlai queues https://otr.cypherpunks.ca/Protocol-v3-4.0.0.html for tomorrow, but gets some sleep first
19:29 < bramc> Adlai, yes, but trivially forgeable transcripts get used as evidence in court all the time, and their veracity is rarely questioned, even less often successfully.
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19:32 < Adlai> has otr even made it into court yet? (in the way PGP has)
19:33 < amiller> bramc, that's not relevant in the context of this discussion, which is whether or not coercion resistant evoting schemes make any sense
19:33 < Adlai> a bit of googling, which is the extent of my legal history skillset, turns up nothing
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19:34 < bramc> amiller, Just trying to clarify the point which I think phantomcircuit was making
19:34 < bramc> Adlai, They'd be presented in court like any other kind of logs, with slightly less strong evidence of their accuracy than there would be if otr hadn't been used
19:35 < phantomcircuit> Adlai, ulbricht had OTR logs which were admitted into evidence and obviously accepted as accurate
19:35 < amiller> the helios link i gave is actually explicitly not coercion resistant
19:35 < phantomcircuit> but also
19:35 < phantomcircuit> the original recipient can count on the logs being accurate
19:35 < phantomcircuit> and authentic
19:35 < amiller> still coercion resistant evoting schemes have a bunch of academic papers on them i dont know if any in application
19:35 < amiller> http://e-collection.library.ethz.ch/eserv/eth:3046/eth-3046-01.pdf e.g.
19:36 < Adlai> ok, and the tallying process can count on votes being authentic - without individual voters being able to later prove where they sent their ballot
19:41  * Adlai likes the name for it in this paper: 'receipt-freeness'. carbon-neutral voting!
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