--- Log opened Mon Feb 16 00:00:56 2015
00:03 < Taek> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9055073 - this is an idea that has obsessed me a bit for the past year or so
00:04 < Taek> the idea of an autonomous, self repairing, self reproducing fleet of cars that finances itself by being a taxi service is super attractive. It'll be nearly alive, and it'll pay for all of its own human services
00:06 < Taek> And Bitcoin is a pretty natural choice for currency, as it protects the cars from legal action that might freeze the funding. It won't protect the cars from seizure or force but at least you'll have financial security
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03:44 < maaku> Taek: sure, but the challenges there are unrelated to money protocol
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05:58 < kanzure> maaku: perhaps i should push him into the secret channel for secret self-reproducing car stuff
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05:59 < maaku> kanzure: yeah Taek's cool
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07:07 < kanzure> http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ProofsCantProveTheAbsenceOfBugs
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07:41 < justanotheruser> kanzure: aww, I was hoping for a proof that proofs can't prove the absence of bugs
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11:03 < cfields> stonecoldpat: assume we're thinking the same way, what pitfalls have you come up with?
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11:05 < kanzure> cfields: sender pubkey is clever but you could just do a massive lookup attack i think, since sender pubkeys are knowable
11:05 < stonecoldpat> ^
11:05 < kanzure> cfields: although the feasibility of that sort of large lookup might be not so feasible, i dunno
11:05 < stonecoldpat> well, there is also a signature available
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11:06 < stonecoldpat> so you have a sig + pub key, that bob can now work with
11:06 < stonecoldpat> and that sig may reveal information
11:06 < cfields> kanzure: the pubkey doesn't get you anywhere....
11:06 < cfields> kanzure: you'd have to also know the receiver's privkey in order to generate the shared secret
11:06 < kanzure> cfields: you can observe the network and see all transactions. so you by definition must have the pubkey.
11:07 < kanzure> or at least a hash of the pubkey.... hm.
11:07 < kanzure> well now i'm unsure.
11:07 < cfields> kanzure: yes, i meant.. if you know the correct pubkey for the _real_ transaction, there's no way to prove it
11:07 < stonecoldpat> if its in the input, theyll have the actual pub key
11:08 < kanzure> cfields: so you're hoping that nobody looks at all of the possible pubkeys, and doesn't try to reconstruct those so-called (possible) stealth transactions?
11:08 < cfields> kanzure: no, i'm saying that it doesn't do you any good to have the real pubkey, if you don't have the sender's priv key to go with it
11:08 < cfields> because you can't regenerate the secret without both
11:09 < kanzure> what was the definition of your secret please
11:09 < stonecoldpat> from what i can tell, he wants to use the pubkey stored in the input of a transaction, as opposed to one sent over https / opreturn
11:09 < stonecoldpat> and then do a diffie with the senders pub key
11:09 < cfields> sender privkey * recv pubkey
11:09 < cfields> correct
11:11 < cfields> the sender tweaks the recv pubkey with that secret to derive a new pubkey, and sends the funds there
11:11 < stonecoldpat> yeah i had an idea to do that last summer, i sent a few e-mails about it privately to some people, it should work fine
11:11 < stonecoldpat> only problem is that a sig is available
11:11 < cfields> stonecoldpat: right. This assumes that the sender can create a compatible transaction
11:12 < stonecoldpat> what do you mean by compatible
11:12 < stonecoldpat> its just a normal transaction?
11:12 < cfields> yea, just nothing crazy
11:12 < stonecoldpat> i look up your previous one, get the pub key, generate your new pub key using my pub key, and send a transaction to that derived pub key
11:13 < cfields> correct
11:13 < stonecoldpat> my pub key is revealed and then you just do stealth that way
11:14 < stonecoldpat> some worries ive had, bob knows it in advance and may force you into some number group that makes your new pub key vulnerable, but i dont have any evidence to show thats the case
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11:14 < cfields> stonecoldpat: that's part of my reason for suggesting to hash the secret before using it
11:14 < stonecoldpat> he also has a singature, that may reveal some information about your pub key (as ecdsa in the form for bitcoin is not a zero knowledge proof, although theres a paper that hints that it could be if re-arranged)
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11:15 < stonecoldpat> it would have to be hashed yeah (thats whats done during a stealth)
11:16 < stonecoldpat> your just using a difference source of a pub key, everything else is the same
11:17 < cfields> stonecoldpat: for that matter, the sender's pubkey could also be tweaked before use in creating the secret, in order to further obfuscate it
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11:18 < stonecoldpat> you cant trust the sender
11:18 < stonecoldpat> he wants to steal your bitcoins if he can
11:18 < cfields> no, that'd be for the sender's benefit
11:18 < stonecoldpat> why would it benefit him? he sends the coins (using an ad-hoc address), he no longer has any use fori t
11:19 < stonecoldpat> he may not even care for the privacy, its the receiver who cares (and requests that this technique is used)
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11:24 < cfields> stonecoldpat: ok sorry, i got that backwards. the receiver's pubkey could be tweaked on the sender's side by some deterministic (but random) value, to be reversed by the receiver. in order to possibly help hide info that could be gleaned from the sig.
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11:27 < linelevel>  I just saw Gavin at DevCore Boston less than a week ago, and he said he thought it would be 6 months before 0.10 was released. Guess he overestimated a bit. :)
11:27 < cfields> linelevel: eh? he said 6 months for adoption
11:27 < stonecoldpat> cfields: ive thought of that for something related, i dont think that would help as it creates extra-work for the receiver (unless random is sent via another channel) and i dont think that would really help with the sig problem
11:28 < kanzure> cfields: btw i have a partial transcript from the livestream http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/bitcoin-devcore-2015/research-and-development-goals/
11:28 < stonecoldpat> then that defeats the purpose of doing it that way to begin with (to avoid out-of-band communication)
11:28 < linelevel> cfields: Ah, okay. I guess I misunderstood.
11:29 < cfields> stonecoldpat: random could be something as simple as the hash of the pubkey.
11:29 < cfields> er, haha, nm
11:29 < stonecoldpat> lol
11:30 < stonecoldpat> theres lots of tweaks you can do, but i dont think they are necessary
11:30 < cfields> this is all still fresh in my brain, i keep having to remind myself which parts are secret :)
11:31 < stonecoldpat> if it helps, i do think its reasonably safe, a while ago i searched through the logs to find out why they didnt do it that way to begin with to no avail, but its certainly better to use an ad-hoc nonce each time for safety
11:33 < cfields> stonecoldpat: well, it's a trade-off with adding an additional layer of communication.
11:33 < cfields> stonecoldpat: but yes, this has helped greatly. Thanks for talking though it with me. I'll throw something together for a more in-depth discussion.
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18:42 < kanzure> recreational reading http://www.scottaaronson.com/writings/bignumbers.html
18:44 < nsh> *skips to end, adds one, declares victory*
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18:44 < nsh> for extra credit, think deeply about that 'whoever had the deeper paradigm' then read godels paper on the lengths of proofs
18:45 < nsh> (i have attempted this exercise about six times and not made it to the end of the paper)
18:45 < kanzure> nah i will just read chaitin and pretend
18:46 < nsh> have to pretend pretty hard to out-chaitin chaitin
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18:52 < tromp_> i tried as much in my paper http://tromp.github.io/cl/LC.pdf
18:52 < tromp_> "our program is less than a quarter the size of Chaitin's when measured in bits."
18:53 < tromp_> in a proof of one side of Symmetry of information
18:53 < nsh> oh, neat
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18:54 < nsh> i should try and mash that paper with the weird freaky stuff someone is going with graph theory and sinful programmatic generation of parsers and other things that make me not want to think about it too hard
18:54 < nsh> *doing
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18:55 < kanzure> tromp_: so is this channel secretly the leibniz fan club or what
18:55 < nsh> ixnay on the eibnizlay!
18:56 < tromp_> count me in:)
18:56 < nsh> tromp_, do you end up with actual manageable godel numbers with your scheme?
18:56 < tromp_> my godel numbers are simly binary encoded lambda terms
18:56 < tromp_> and as such more manageable
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18:56 < nsh> interesting
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18:57 < tromp_> see http://www.ioccc.org/2012/tromp/hint.html for some sample programs
18:57 < nsh> i had a very esoteric idea about the security of hash functions in terms of what happens if you try to use hashes as proxies of full godel encodings
18:57 < nsh> and see what the algebraic results are
18:57 < nsh> but it's probably too left-field to actually lead anywhere
18:58 < tromp_> what do you mean by proxies in that context?
18:58 < kanzure> yeah and why would you pick one hash function over another in that context
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18:59 < nsh> mmm
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18:59 < nsh> so godel encoding puts all possible formulations into correspondence with the integers
18:59 < tromp_> the whole point of godel encoding is that you can decode it; which you cannot with hashes:(
18:59 < nsh> hashing would put them into correspondence with a smaller set of integers
18:59 < nsh> (with collisions)
18:59 < nsh> those collisions should then have algebraic properties
18:59 < nsh> which relate to the hash function itself
18:59 < gmaxwell> kanzure: I'm kinda disappointed that I had his answer at the start.
18:59 < nsh> and its security
19:00 < nsh> (so which equivalence class of formulas is related by collisions in the hash should have some meaning, but beyond that i can't imagine)
19:01 < nsh> it's also relative to your encoding choices though, which may be hard to disentangle
19:02 < Taek> I would have used Graham's number notation; g(g(g(...g64)))...
19:04 < gmaxwell> really the answer is just a test for what classes of function you know about.
19:04 < tromp_> i like Goodstein sequences
19:04 < tromp_> kind of miraculous how they converge
19:04 < tromp_> against all odds
19:05 < tromp_> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodstein%27s_theorem#Goodstein_sequences
19:05 < kanzure> .wik goldstein's theorem
19:05 < yoleaux> "In mathematical logic, Goodstein's theorem is a statement about the natural numbers, proved by Reuben Goodstein in 1944, which states that every Goodstein sequence eventually terminates at 0. Kirby and Paris showed that it is unprovable in Peano arithmetic (but it can be proven in stronger systems, such as second order arithmetic)." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldstein%27s_theorem
19:05  * nsh nods
19:06 < tromp_> funny how you get the right entry despite mis-spelling his name:)
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19:07 < gmaxwell> I like out the WP article uses ackermann numbers to abbrivate the larger entries.
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19:08 < nsh> google helps with that (thankfully, because mediawiki search was always... hit and miss)
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19:25 < zooko> w
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19:35 < zooko> oops.
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20:14 < maaku> anyone here know or can recommend a technical writer?
20:15 < nsh> what kind of technicals?
20:16 < maaku> wizardly bitcoin proposals and such
20:17 < maaku> someone who can grok the kinds of things discussed here relatively quickly and then write both documentation and stuff for public consumption
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20:23 < kanzure> maaku: eric hunting would be pretty great for that
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20:27 < maaku> kanzure: this one? https://www.linkedin.com/pub/eric-hunting/1a/61/9b2
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20:29 < kanzure> that profile is quite betraying to him... i should bug him about that.
20:30 < maaku> thanks for the reference I'll pass it along. if you have a better profile that would help
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21:47 < sipa> amiller: tss, hiw dare you misremember the date of 'the future'
21:47 < sipa> *how
21:50 < amiller> :o
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22:08 < phantomcircuit> petertodd, im sure this has been answered before, but.... can you use the contracthash stuff to embed the stealth address parameters in the signature?
22:08 < phantomcircuit> oh nvm
22:09 < phantomcircuit> that's got out of band reqs also
22:09 < phantomcircuit> ignore me
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