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10:15 < mariorz> why do you think some people are so viscerally against bitcoin?
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10:19 < mariorz> they usually rationalize it with pseudo-economic arguments, but even that does not explain such a vehement stand
10:20 < kanzure> wrong channel i think
10:20 < mariorz> oh
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10:49 < zooko`> Oh, and I thought I was joking, but there actually is such a channel.
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10:50 < stonecoldpat> lol
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12:50 < bramc> Hey everybody
12:52 < tromp_> hi Bram
12:52 < bramc> Some preliminary thoughts from meatspace discussions yesterday:
12:53 < bramc> nonoutsourcability is totally fixable using amiller's construction but doesn't address the main attack. Using strongly single use signatures is probably a really good idea though (I can explain what those are, there's no literature on them)
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12:54 < amiller> meatspace where (just curious)?
12:54 < amiller> what do you mean doesn't address the main attac
12:55 < tromp_> aren't ecdsa sigs with fixed k single use?
12:56 < bramc> The problem of pooling incentives can be strongly mitigated by using the nth worst signature for some small n and requiring the others to support it. It's very important that only the nth worst appear on the trunk (new idea as of this morning, before I thought this allowed an attacker to try too many different permutations) and there's a lot of subtle details about how the cooperation works out and it makes everything a
12:57 < bramc>  bit weaker against a fast spow server.
12:57 < bramc> tromp_, Could be, I need nonoutsourcability too though
12:58 < bramc> amiller, meatspace in my offices
12:59 < amiller> i havne't clicked in and figured out what you're talking about yet :)
12:59 < bramc> With secure hash based signatures there's a simple trick for making them single use: Signatures require revealing most of the preimages
12:59 < tromp_> by n-th worst you mean n-th closest to the target from spow?
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13:00 < bramc> Now I need to figure out how to start approaching this for someone who wasn't at the meeting yesterday
13:00 < tromp_> how many ppl at this meeting?
13:02 < bramc> The short of it is that I'm working on a form of mining where the proof of work doesn't involve any CPU (think I've explained that before) There's an inherent problem with it in that because it doesn't cost anything to mine it doesn't cost anything to mine inferior forks, and your chances of an inferior fork catching up go up as the size of your pool gets bigger. This isn't a large effect, but it's one which it would be
13:02 < bramc>  a very good idea to mitigate.
13:02 < bramc> tromp_, six or seven not including me.
13:03 < bramc> gmaxwell, Luke-Jr, sipa, and a few others whose handles I don't remember
13:04 < bramc> Oh that reminds me, I'm now convinced that it's a good idea to not do the halving, and given how slowly the implicit inflation goes down I think it's best to just leave it at that. That also has the advantage of being braindead simple.
13:04 < bramc> This is re: the general discussion of demurrage
13:04 < tromp_> so you want single-use sigs to prevent ppl signing off on multiple forks?
13:05 < bramc> tromp_, Uh... basically yes, I'm not exactly sure attacks I'd like to guard against because they depend on the subtle details of how cooperation between the n best sigs works but something like that.
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13:06 < tromp_> your not-halving comment is about the reward as function of time?
13:07 < bramc> tromp_, Yes, mining rewards are fixed
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13:09 < kanzure> meatspace as in "don't stream it or else kanzure might type it"
13:09  * zooko reads with interest
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13:10 < tromp_> so if the coin-loss rate is 2%, it takes over 50 years to reach the soft-cap of 50*yearly reward
13:11 < bramc> kanzure, Oh sorry, I didn't think to stream it, now that you mention it, I think you asked for that and I forgot
13:11 < bramc> my bad
13:11 < kanzure> that's okay, the version that happened in my head is probably accurate
13:12 < zooko> *lol*
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13:12 < bramc> There wasn't much tomato flinging, I'd worked out answers to the problems which had been pointed out in earlier discussions. In some cases not super great answers, but at least answers.
13:12 < kanzure> nah i don't mean food fighting. i think i know a few of you well enough to predict various arguments.
13:13 < bramc> tromp_, I'm thinking no coin-loss rate, so *eventually* the rate is 'too low', and it happens as inflation instead of direct loss, but, you know, close enough.
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13:17 < bramc> There was a bunch of general bitcoin discussion as well, including things like discussing transaction fees at the rate limit and shitting on zeroconf
13:18 < zooko> zeroconf?
13:18 < fluffypony> zeroconf ALL of the things!
13:18 < fluffypony> zooko: zero confirmation transactions
13:18 < zooko> Oh.
13:18 < kanzure> "speed of light constraints don't exist, proof of work is wasteful, and bitcoin devs are evil"
13:18 < fluffypony> because you should be using Bitcoin to buy your coffee in the morning, amirite?
13:18 < bramc> As in, zero blocks have been minted including the transaction yet
13:19 < kanzure> i think that you will find that the vast majority of all devs aren't actually evil
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13:19 < kanzure> also, i don't know what sort of complaints you have about zero confirmation transactions, but technically all transactions begin with zero confirmations, so i don't see the problem
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13:20 < bramc> fluffypony, That's the goal, although of course zeroconf proper isn't a good solution. Some things came up which I need to read up on, including micropayment channels
13:20 < fluffypony> bramc: except that I'm not sure the main Bitcoin blockchain is the best place to have millions upon millions of coffee purchases...a
13:20 < bramc> So I'm going to hold off on giving an opinion on the best way to do a zeroconf-like thing until I've read through micropayment channels stuff
13:21 < kanzure> bramc: http://sourceforge.net/p/bitcoin/mailman/message/33405247/
13:21 < bramc> fluffypony, Yes that's another problem.
13:22 < bramc> kanzure, The whole meeting felt very positive and a lot of fun, nobody was accusing anybody else of being evil
13:22 < kanzure> i was taking some creative license, hehe
13:22 < kanzure> i don't actually think that you think everyone is evil, you know
13:22 < bramc> There also seems to be a general belief that... how to put this... bitcoin zealotry is not actually helpful for the technology
13:23 < fluffypony> except kanzure, he's pretty evil with his dodgy anti-captcha libraries and stuff
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13:23 < fluffypony> :-P
13:23 < kanzure> fluffypony: honestly you're the first person that has brought that up to me, which is a little weird-- everyone else seems to be sleeping on the job
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13:23 < fluffypony> you should complain to management
13:24 < bramc> Obviously I'm not arguing against speed of light limitations: I'm probably the world's leading expert in that having spent several years banging my head against live streaming. The argument about whether it's possible to get rid of mining wastage is a real one though, and the whole point of what I'm doing.
13:25 < kanzure> have you read pos.pdf yet
13:25 < kanzure> or alts.pdf for that matter
13:26 < bramc> kanzure, I'm doing proof of storage, not proof of stake. Trying to keep the very central concept in bitcoin that all you need to validate the best blockchain is a cpu and a clock
13:26 < kanzure> hopefully i have never accused you of doing proof of stake, but the reasons why proof of stake doesn't quite work are quite interesting and worth studying
13:27 < bramc> Fair enough, I'll put it on my reading list, which apparently is a bit long again
13:27 < kanzure> also, supose you have a civilization on earth within a light sphere of say uh.. a few minutes at most.. that had a few trillion transactions per second. i don't think it's reasonable to store all of those transactions in a blockchain that gets synced around to everyone.
13:27 < kanzure> bramc: https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/alts.pdf
13:27 < moa> ".... the vast majority of all devs aren't actually evil" ... can't be evil
13:27 < kanzure> bramc: https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/pos.pdf
13:28 < bramc> kanzure, Absolutely, I don't have a good answer to scaling though, so I'm not pretending to work on it
13:28 < kanzure> moa: developers (including myself) can make poor implementation decisions
13:28 < bramc> kanzure, thanks for the links, but I'd already found them :-)
13:28 < kanzure> bramc: btw i've been meaning to ask you, why are there not so many forks of bittorrent? obv. there's no crazy financial incentive, but uh.. still.. i'd expect at least more than i've seen. which is not many.
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13:29 < kanzure> bramc: one idea ih ave is that the reason may be that there's no single bittorrent client that performs all of the necessary functions, so forking and protocol-derivatives are more costly.
13:29 < bramc> kanzure, Basically nobody's come up with a compelling feature for a new alternative. And there's tremendous networking effects with a literal installed base.
13:29 < moa> bramc : (micro)payment channels material links https://github.com/utxo/wheels/wiki
13:29 < bramc> Yes getting installs on client machines is a massive hurdle.
13:30 < kanzure> right right, typical adoption problems, but i assume also infrastructure problems (server, client, trackers, whatever the protocol changes call for)
13:30 < kanzure> whoops s/server/tracker
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13:30 < bramc> Yeah there's a lot of momentum on the DHT. Less for individual trackers though
13:31 < kanzure> i think that bitcoinj's micropayment channel documentation is the most practically-approachable and had minimal moon math
13:31 < kanzure> https://bitcoinj.github.io/working-with-micropayments
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13:36 < bramc> Doing everything based on proofs of storage appears to not work but I'm trying to do the very subtle engineering necessary to make it happen. One of the first times I came in this channel I got into an argument with gmaxwell about the entry in the bitcoin ninja faq talking about that. This argument is of course still ongoing. There's a not-so-slippery slope in what I've come up with, which raises the question of how not
13:36 < bramc> -slippery it can be made and whether that works in practice.
13:36 < bramc> gmaxwell also made the interesting and ironic point that attacking my thing is a lot more fun than attacking something which is truly busted
13:36 < moa> a worthy adversary
13:37 < bramc> moa, Yeah that's the problem
13:38 < kanzure> i think you should consider working from the opposite direction (why does decentralized consensus seem to work at all, and then what properties of it can you change without totally breaking it)
13:38 < kanzure> ((rather than building from the opposite direction))
13:38 < moa> interesting comment about keeping it simple to proving you have a cpu and a clock
13:39 < moa> proof of clock?
13:40 < moa> what is work done but the increase in entropy
13:40 < bramc> moa, There's a lot of proof of time in thing, aka sequential proof of work or spow
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13:41 < bramc> kanzure, Well I sort of am in that I'm working based fairly directly off of bitcoin, there's a clear notion of having blocks and probabilistic minting of them
13:42  * zooko reads with interest.
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13:43 < kanzure> right.. but blocks aren't why it works.
13:43 < kanzure> or seems to work
13:43  * stonecoldpat reads with interest as well.
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13:44 < bramc> moa, There's a basic but very obfuscated point in bitcoin that when you're deciding whether to accept a chain you look at the clock and only accept the chain if the amount of mining rewards it claims are within what should have been awarded by the current time. That's heavily obfuscated for technical reasons, but it's the essence of what's going on.
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13:46 < moa> the time warp attack ... hardly call it obfuscated
13:46 < bramc> kanzure, It's based a little bit more fundamentally on proofs of work, but the noisiness seems very fundamental to achieving convergence, at least nobody's suggested anything else which seems to work for that.
13:46 < bramc> moa, the time warp attack is much less effective if you don't have that damn bug.
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13:50 < moa> well the distributed (consensus) timestamp server is the key discovery behind the much ballyhooed "blockchain techology"
13:50 < moa> and it appears to work, thus far
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13:54 < bramc> There are a number of things in bitcoin which just barely work and are heavily interdependent, as this loophole in the limits of k-agreement. I assume the thing on proofs of stake goes into much more technical detail on this, but I haven't read it yet.
13:55 < bramc> Is there a good link for p2sh squared?
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13:56 < kanzure> there are good links for p2sh things, but what is squared about p2sh squared?
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13:57 < bramc> kanzure, It's double hashed so there's a need to demonstrate that things in the block chain are actual hashes. People were talking about it yesterday.
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13:58 < bramc> Also, is there a good explanation of what 'scorched earth' is in reference to? I can find it being used but nothing which explains what's meant by it.
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13:59 < bramc> Also came up in discussion: There's a very important use case for having dependent transactions get included in the same block, in having the receiver pay transaction fees.
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14:06 < moa> proof of clock ==> proof of entropy increase (arrow of time) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy_%28arrow_of_time%29
14:09 < bramc> moa, there's a difference between something which demonstrates a parallelizable vs. non-parallelizable operation.
14:11 < bramc> lamport signatures are of course all single use, but they aren't strongly single use, in that maybe you can get away with signing, like, two things. I'd like to fix that down so that if you sign two things you are well and truly screwed.
14:11 < moa> are all h/ware clocks crystal oscillators?
14:12 < bramc> Regardless of exactly how the underlying hardware works, there are some operations which just can't be parallelized effectively for cryptographic reasons.
14:14 < bramc> I keep forgetting that I installed a plug-in to improve the web and wondering why pages are talking about the 'douchiness committee' and the like (it's auto-substituting from 'leadership')
14:17 < moa> that's abstracting the double-spend problem out to the smaller set of parallelizable processes solutions
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14:18 < moa> an incorruptible timestamp is the wider solution set
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14:20 < bramc> moa, With a carefully designed block chain there can be a mix of proofs of time and proofs of storage which don't allow for an attacker to try an unlimited number of alternatives in parallel.
14:21 < bramc> Emphasis on the 'carefully designed'
14:21 < smooth> bramc: http://sourceforge.net/p/bitcoin/mailman/message/30705609/
14:22 < bramc> smooth, thanks!
14:25 < moa> oh I thought you were investigating ASIC-resistant approaches
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14:32 < bramc> moa, This goes beyond asic resistance into asics being completely irrelevant. Well, not for the proof of time part, but there's no direct incentive for that bit and only a few of them run at once.
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14:37  * nsh muses
14:48 < tromp_> bramc: if we could demonstrate practical limits on th parallellizability of cuckoo cycle, then that could make a simple posw
14:49 < tromp_> (i prefer the term proof of seq work over seq proof of work)
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14:50 < bramc> tromp_, I need the proofs of storage to be fast and use no power at all, so I'm using the much more expedient trick of having the proof of storage be a public key whose hash is numerically as close as possible to the hash of the last spow
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14:51 < bramc> I'm indifferent about the vernacular. People here seem to like saying spow, I don't know if that's a term of art or something gmaxwell made up.
14:51 < tromp_> it's the work that is sequential, not the proof
14:51 < instagibbs> I look forward to some form of write-up. I'm a little hazy on some of the acronyms you're throwing around
14:52 < tromp_> anyway, you seem to misinterpret my comment; i was talking about the proof -of-time  phas
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14:58 < bramc> tromp_, Oh the proof of time part needs to be absolutely canonical and nailed down. I'm doing it by it being a braindead repeated hashing operation with intermediary values given so that it can be spot checked and checked in parallel.
15:02 < tromp_> i agree that's much simpler. but for k iterations you need k*32 bytes of proof
15:03 < tromp_> and you wanted k in the thousands?
15:04 < bramc> Yeah they're a bit big unfortunately but still well under the transaction size limits
15:04 < tromp_> cuckoo is orders of magnitude shorter
15:05 < tromp_> and instantly checkable
15:05 < bramc> It's 64 bits per k, on the assumption that nobody can have 2^64 parallel processors
15:05 < bramc> cuckoo can't be verified to be canonical. That's a very important property.
15:07 < bramc> As in, necessary for the security of my system
15:07 < tromp_> ok, then we can forget about cuckoo....
15:08 < bramc> Yeah that requirement makes things very difficult
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15:44 < zooko> Hm, can't it be verified as canonical?
15:44 < zooko> It might require more work than the verification of (possibly non-canonical) work.
15:44 < zooko> Oh, bramc disappeared.
15:45 < zooko> Good, because I instantly regretted contributing a thought without first inquiring if he was patenting his ideas. ;-)
15:49 < moa> irc logs, the original creative commons
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18:30 < bramc> zooko, anything deterministic can be canonical the trick is finding something which is canonical and can be verified to be canonical quickly, has to be at least parallelizable to check and ideally should be spot checkable.
18:30 < bramc> Also it's good for it to be based on AES-128 because that already has fairly good hardware acceleration readily available.
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18:37 < gmaxwell> PHC seemed to not like "uses AES hardware" as a feature.
18:37 < phantomcircuit> PHC ?
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18:39 < gmaxwell> password hashing competition.
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18:41 < phantomcircuit> oh
18:42 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, something about the round functions not being effective without the setup?
18:43 < gmaxwell> to be fair, it was a bit more complicated in that if you didn't use an _entire_ run of AES there is no promise your construction will be compatible with future AES hardware, even for people that have AES hardware.
18:43 < phantomcircuit> yeah that
18:44 < gmaxwell> and I think many of the 'uses aes hardware' proposals in that space were really "uses one execution of the AES round function" or the like.
18:44 < phantomcircuit> the setup step is too expensive for a hash function
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18:45 < gmaxwell> well you can assume that the hardware will let you setup once and run multiple blocks, but I think these "memory hard" functions really want to do a memory access e.g. per every _round_ and not wait for a whole AES block.
18:48 < phantomcircuit> oh yeah
18:49 < phantomcircuit> anyways i suspect the round function by itself isn't a great hash function
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18:53 < gmaxwell> doesn't need to be.
18:54 < phantomcircuit> yup
18:58 < bramc> gmaxwell, That's consistent with what's bothered me in my own attempts to make a password hashing algorithm
18:59 < bramc> I came up with this, which I think is a great general construction but leaves open the question of what to use as the round function: http://bramcohen.com/2014/11/18/a-mode-for-password-hashing
19:07 < phantomcircuit> bramc, raw sha256
19:07 < phantomcircuit> length extended with csprng output
19:08 < phantomcircuit> allows for increasing the "strength" of the hashes without the user entering the password
19:08 < phantomcircuit> neat huh
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19:11 < tromp> bramc: if the custom hardware doing spow is 10 times faster than your avg server, then the latter needs 100mins to fully check the spow. something fishy about a full node needing to trust others to find discrepancies in a timely manner...
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19:19 < bramc> phantomcircuit, that doesn't introduce unpredictable memory accesses
19:19 < bramc> tromp, things can be checked in parallel and, uh, yeah, that part of the protocol is a bit odd.
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19:20 < bramc> Although a full node can always check everything lazily
19:21 < bramc> For the purposes of spow AES's slowness when used to make a hash function isn't an issue because, uh, spows are supposed to be slow. What matters is how fast they are to verify, and the acceleration on the verifying machines helps a lot.
19:22 < tromp> but 10mins of spow by fastest hardware imaginable is an insane amount of work for all full nodes to have to check, parallelized or not. i think you really need spow verification to be orders of magnitude cheaper than its computation
19:23 < bramc> It is, you spot check
19:23 < tromp> full nodes should be more authoritive than presenting a "likely to be correct" picture of the ledger state
19:24 < bramc> And peers can tell their peers when a spow is busted, and checking the one part which is reported to be busted is very fast.
19:24 < bramc> In bitcoin all you have is a 'likely to be correct' picture of the ledger, it just gets more likely as the amount of stuff at the end increases
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19:25 < bramc> If somebody accepts a bad spow then their later work will quickly fall behind
19:28 < bramc> Although it's hard for someone to wind up on a bad spow, because peers which have different spows for the same pos will notice almost instantly.
19:29 < bramc> That's the upside of the spow being canonical
19:30 < tromp> that's true; it's easy ti tell which of two different spow proofs is wrong
19:30 < bramc> So I came up with a neat trick for making lamport signatures very strongly single use without making them much bigger
19:30 < bramc> tromp, or at least which one is right at their first point of divergence
19:31 < tromp> what's the neat trick?
19:32 < bramc> As you may recall, in lamport signatures there's a merkle root published, and to do a signature you publish a corresponding set of the things leading up to the root
19:34 < bramc> My idea for making it strongly one time is to make the number of things revealed rather large, like n-n^.5 of them, so that if two signatures are done they probably collectively reveal everything, but this of course makes the signatures bigger, which leads to the next trick
19:35 < tromp> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamport_signature doesn't mention the merkle tree except for some variant at the end
19:35 < phantomcircuit> bramc, memory hard hash functions are basically silly
19:36 < phantomcircuit> a cpu hard hash function is very likely to scale linearly with cores
19:37 < phantomcircuit> a memory hard hash function might scale non linearly with reductions in memory latency
19:39 < bramc> When generating the things to be preimaged, do it off a seed, where you basically walk down the tree instead of up to go from the seed to the things to be revealed. When doing the reveal, if a whole section of the tree needs to be revealed, you do it by revealing the part of the seed which generated that whole section
19:39 < bramc> presto, shorter signatures
19:40 < bramc> tromp, in practice you use the hash root as the public key because it's shorter.
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19:40 < bramc> phantomcircuit, All the work on password hashing functions is on making them memory hard, whether that's a good idea is another matter.
19:41 < phantomcircuit> bramc, that's an unfortunate waste of time then
19:42 < bramc> phantomcircuit, Well if you assume that it's a good property to have, I came up with a useful construction for doing it.
19:44 < tromp> that trick seems to work, but is rather lacking in elegance:(
19:45 < bsm117532> Sorry I missed the beginning of the conversation, but I kind of gather there's a deeper motivation than just making a memory-hard PoW?
19:45 < tromp> did you read the mahmoody et. al paper on proofs of sequential work?
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19:45 < bsm117532> and now I know why you guys are spowing.
19:46 < bramc> tromp, Yes I've read it and have some big improvements on it, but they aren't canonical and don't wind up being smaller at practical sizes anyway
19:47 < bsm117532> Ah bramc you want to use a tree to verify a memory hard function, therefore making it logarithmic in verification time?
19:48 < bramc> bsm117532, We're having two interleaved conversations here, one about sequential proofs of work, the other about password hashing functions. That second one we're just discussing for shits and giggles.
19:48 < bramc> Oh, and a third interleaved conversation about strongly one-time signatures. This is likely all a bit confusing for those tuning in in the middle.
19:48 < tromp> bsm117532: bramc is hoping to replace pw by proof-of-time alternating with proof-of-storage
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19:50 < bsm117532> Good thing I have a glass of vodka then.  Continue, gentlemen.  I'll try not to interrupt.  Thanks.
19:51 < bramc> tromp, What are you abbreviating to 'pw'? I know the concept but not sure the acronym
19:51 < tromp> typo; should be PoW instead of pw
19:52 < bramc> tromp, and which thing did you mean isn't very elegant?
19:52 < tromp> revealing n-n^.5 out of n preimages
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19:55 < tromp> maybe there is a somewhat simple cheaply verifiable spow waiting to be discovered
19:55 < bramc> tromp, oh year the magic numbers are a bit arbitrary, that amount makes it so that about half the time two signatures will literally reveal everything between them, and of course an attacker can easily grind small variations if they're missing only one or two preimages
19:56 < tromp> yes, i realize why you chose that n-n^.5
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19:57 < tromp> which results in having to square your n, which you then compensate for with other tricks
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19:58 < bramc> tromp, you can improve on the spow in the mahmoody paper by having your spow be done by revealing a hash root of a tree where the leaves are generated by hashing together the already finished branches, then using the root to decide what the challenges for leaf reveals are
19:59 < bramc> Problem: totally not canonical, and not terribly efficient at small sizes. Trying to improve on it basically degrades to what I'm using now.
19:59 < tromp> unfortunately i have only located but not read that paper:(
19:59 < tromp> i'm still making my way through the zerocash paper:)
20:00 < bramc> zerocash is no my list of 'that was very interesting but way too crazy to use right now'
20:00 < bramc> maybe in, like, 20 years
20:00 < bramc> In the meantime nobody's even made a decent change making service.
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20:01 < bsm117532> In the context of bitcoin, the conversation about new PoW algorithms generally revolves around the flawed assumption that no one could POSSIBLY develop specialized hardware to evaluate my bizarre function.
20:02 < bsm117532> bramc: I'm missing the n-sqrt(n) bit.  I found http://bramcohen.com/2014/11/18/a-mode-for-password-hashing but you seem to be discussing something else?
20:03 < tromp> for cuckoo i'd use PROFITABLY instead of POSSIBLY
20:04 < bramc> bsm117532, Yeah this is about making a secure hash based signature which has the property that if you sign more than one thing with it you've well and truly given away the private key
20:04 < everettForth> bsm117532: that's not what Evan Duffield says about X11.  He says the purpose of X11 is to try to make a PoW algorithm that follows the same path bitcoin did from cpu->gpu->fpga->asic
20:04 < bsm117532> new PoW algorithms are boring.
20:04 < bramc> tromp, my issue with cuckoo is that although it seems plausible that it can defeat asics, it can't stop the bottleneck from being electricity usage.
20:04 < bsm117532> All will follow that path.  who cares?
20:05 < tromp> no, new hash functions to stick into hashcash are boring
20:05 < bramc> cuckoo is an interesting piece of research, unlike X11, which is a shit smoothie.
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20:06  * Luke-Jr wonders if Cuckoo is interesting enough to add ot BFGMiner
20:06 < bsm117532> I'm actually contemplating a system which involves brute-forcing private keys in assymetric encryption as it's PoW.
20:06 < tromp> yes, bram, cuckoo reduce electricity use, but not more than an order of magnitude
20:06 < bsm117532> I'm concerned about incentivizing the creation of key-cracking hardware...
20:07 < bramc> The whole side discussion about password hashing functions is besides the point because password hashing functions are by nature very different beasts. PoW is supposed to be quick to verify, PHF is specifically not.
20:07 < Luke-Jr> bsm117532: then you don't have a realistic concern ;)
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20:08 < bramc> Luke-Jr, the whole point of cuckoo is that it would be extremely painful to put it into something like bfgminer
20:08 < bsm117532> If the PoW is brute-forcing private keys, it allows parties to encrypt something with the (known, publicly distributed) public key.
20:08 < bsm117532> Which presents interesting ideas.
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20:10 < bramc> bsm117532, You could do that by truncating the hash of the last block to represent a brute forceable length public key
20:10 < bsm117532> exactly
20:10 < bramc> Or something like that. That trick is much more clever from a protocol standpoint than everything else we're discussing
20:10 < bsm117532> Use the low bits of the last PoW hash...
20:10 < bramc> The problem with that is that it can be precomputed and stored in a look up table.
20:11 < bsm117532> Salt it.
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20:11 < bsm117532> (how to to that I haven't worked out...)
20:11 < bramc> Salt what?
20:11 < bsm117532> exactly.
20:12 < bsm117532> OTOH on the assumption of ever-increasing hashing power, rainbow tables aren't much of a concern here.
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20:12 < bsm117532> So you made a hash table for 4-bit keys?  wonderful. The difficulty is now 27 bit keys.  Good luck with that.
20:12 < bramc> My proposed proof of storage is to find a public key whose hash matches the previous block's hash as closely as possible, by the way, with it being precomputed in a lookup table being the entire point.
20:13 < bsm117532> ooh.  I have to read then.
20:13 < Luke-Jr> bramc: what, it works without anything on the CPU? :P
20:13 < bsm117532> bramc: I think I'm missing a link.  re-link me the idea?
20:13 < bramc> bsm117532, there isn't a good writeup so far, there's some discussion in the bitcoin-wizards logs
20:14 < bsm117532> aaaaahhhhhh gum flapping logs suck.
20:14 < bramc> Sorry, we also had a meatspace meeting about it yesterday which got fairly deep into the details and I'm iterating
20:14 < bsm117532> gotcha
20:14 < bramc> hence the lack of good writeup, that 'still iterating' part
20:15 < bsm117532> FYI, just moved to NYC, I'm interested in meeting any of you in this space...
20:15 < bramc> A bunch of us are in san francisco, no idea if anybody's in nyc
20:15 < bsm117532> As in, #wizards, not #dev or #bitcoin.
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20:16 < bramc> Luke-Jr, that is, of course, the whole point.
20:17 < everettForth> What are you trying to do, bramc ?  decrease power consumption for PoW?
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20:18 < bramc> everettForth, trying to make it so the bottleneck on mining is storage used, so the resources going into it will be already extant depreciating hard drive space rather than new electricity.
20:19 < bsm117532> PoW is the expenditure of an external, economic resource.  I don't think "decreasing power consumption" will lead anywhere because whatever you replace it with will be tied to an external financial resource.
20:19 < bramc> Which (a) results in less environmental destruction from mining, and (b) allows a massive security parameter to be set on the whole thing because that unused hard drive space is already out there and this adds no cost to utilizing it for mining
20:20 < kanzure> bramc: what's the best argument that the environmental concerns are not fearmongering and/or FUD? a link would be nice.
20:20 < bramc> bsm117532, the external resource in this case is unused hard drive space, of which there are mass quantities out there already
20:20 < everettForth> bramc: miners will still spend in variable cost roughly the revenue they can generate.  If that means buying new storage, they will do it.  Also, most of the cost of keeping hard disk storage online is electricity
20:20 < bramc> kanzure, it's a straightforward result of the coal burned to make the electricity used for mining
20:21 < kanzure> also: the existence of an environment with finite resources should not necessarily cause you to abandon decentralized consensus by proof of work, say in a universe where only proof of work works.
20:21 < rusty> bramc: if you're right and successful, why won't this become a botcoin?
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20:21 < kanzure> oh, well coal concerns aren't real-- everyone knows that terraforming works
20:21 < bsm117532> If you could design an algorithm that could transparently use the free space on people's hard drives...that would be pretty awesome.  But they're risking premature hardware failure to secure your financial system.  It's not costless.
20:21 < kanzure> i mean, they aren't real concerns of the type that you should worry about
20:21 < kanzure> save your worrying for things that are far less likely to be solvable
20:22 < kanzure> also, i don't hear you complaining about the sun burning up hydrogen-- what's with the focus on coal anyway
20:22 < bsm117532> everettForth: "most of the cost of keeping hard disk storage online is electricity": only if the access pattern is basically absent.  You insert a disk-space hard algorthm that makes your heads seek like mad or your SSD to rewrite like mad, and it will cost you drives.
20:22 < Taek> who would be contributing the spare hard drive storage?
20:23 < bramc> everettForth, the idea is to engineer out possible variable costs, and for nobody to want to buy hard drives specifically for this purpose because there's so much depreciating space out there that it would be a money losing proposition to specifically buy storage for it
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20:23 < bramc> Taek, I have a few million users I'm hoping to get interested for starters. But really anyone with spare disk space who would like to mine, including lots of companies
20:24 < bramc> rusty, It may well be bot-mined, but lots of companies with enterprise storage setups can do it as well.
20:24 < Taek> I don't think it would be financially valuable to anybody with less than a dedicated server full of hard drives
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20:24 < Luke-Jr> bramc: were* in SF; I've back in FL (and others have left also)
20:24 < Taek> but I guess datacenters also have a lot of deprecating hard drives
20:24 < rusty> bramc: no, either there's heaps of spare storage capacity out there (=> the bots win), or there isn't (=> centralization)
20:25 < Taek> rusty: the bots win == botnets? Or something else?
20:25 < kanzure> "the bots win" is centralization too (malware groups defeating one another)
20:25 < bramc> everettForth, People might also wind up doing funny things like taking old hard drives which it isn't worth keeping running any more, and setting them up powered down and only power up the one they need for each mining operation.
20:25 < rusty> kanzure: indeed.
20:25 < kanzure> you can't really control the reasons why people would want to buy hard drives, bramc
20:26 < bramc> rusty, there's lots of storage space at places which aren't owned by bots. They're happy to use it if it's no additional costs to them.
20:26 < bsm117532> Yeah, anything can be optimized and economies of scale can enter.  ANY PoW algorithm WILL be centralized by economies of scale.  At the best you've only got economies of scale in electricity, but it still exists, even if you magically invented a CPU-only algorithm.
20:26 < bramc> kanzure, All I'm banking on is that there are lots of them already bought and only partially used, and that extra space is gravy
20:26 < kanzure> also you have skipped my environment comments
20:26 < Taek> I think botnets will be less of a problem than with CPU mining, lots of storage is moving to the cloud
20:26 < bramc> kanzure, I'm specifically ignoring your environmental comments
20:27 < kanzure> bramc: because?
20:27 < bsm117532> bramc: Are you increasing the seeking of "spare" space, and increasing the failure rate of spinning rust?
20:27 < bramc> waste is a bad thing, I'm not going to argue the point further
20:27 < kanzure> but what if you're wrong?
20:27 < kanzure> like what if it actually isn't waste and you're wrong?
20:27 < bramc> bsm117532, the amount of seeking is deminimis
20:27 < bramc> bitcoin mining is waste
20:28 < bsm117532> agreed there.  Still looking for something better.
20:28 < kanzure> are you the sort of person that claims "all non-reversible computation is waste"?
20:28 < everettForth> bramc: why would I want to use up my spare personal computing resources if it doesn't net me very much value?
20:28 < everettForth> I guess regular people seed bit torrent files
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20:28 < bramc> everettForth, it doesn't use up your spare hard drive space, at least not in a way that you notice. It uses up the unallocated sections of your physical media
20:28 < Taek> the incentive model is different for bittorrent. People will do silly things for 100GB of imaginary internet credit
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20:29 < Taek> less valuable if you're looking at is as 25 cents a month
20:29 < kanzure> Taek: there's a bit of a reputation game going on for trackers and bittorrent
20:29 < rusty> bramc: I don't think you'll find many data centers with lots of idle disk lying around.  Your best bet is home users.  That's also the botnet operators best bet.
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20:30 < bsm117532> Personally, I've seen tens of personal spinning rust drives fail, and then try to reconstruct files...I would massively avoid anything that increased the load on my HDD, even if write-only with logarithmic reads (sounds like what you're talking about).
20:31 < bramc> rusty, I think the data centers have small amounts proportionately but large amounts in absolute terms. Also if you present me a question of botnets vs. central operations and they're both bad I can't give an option which isn't bad.
20:31 < Taek> kanzure: it works very well for bittorent. Reputation is a great motivator, but I don't see how you'd apply the same motivations to a decentralized system.
20:31 < bramc> bsm117532, It's a single writing over the whole drive, followed by one seek every few minutes and no writes.
20:32 < kanzure> bramc: imagine a world where decentralized consensus absolutely requires proof of work. by your own axiom (bitcoin mining is waste and waste is bad), could you please describe your opinion of decentralized consensus in this totally hypothetical strawman universe?
20:32 < bsm117532> Hmmm...
20:33 < bramc> Well, one write every few minutes as it gets more of the block chain. It's a lot like any other lightweight server
20:33 < everettForth> There's no way I would put something on my computer that taxed resources, even if I was promised it wouldn't affect my usage for the potential reward less than a few dollars per month.
20:33 < bramc> kanzure, I've... been describing that
20:33 < everettForth> However if it was a hobby, I can see something like setting up a tor node
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20:33 < kanzure> bramc: i see your statements regarding bitcoin mining being waste, but i don't see if you have speciified whether you think decentralized consenuss should be abandoned if it is necessary
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20:34 < everettForth> Supporting a network for the sake of trying to keep a service going
20:34 < kanzure> whoops i mean i don't see where you specified
20:34 < bsm117532> Nothing is costless.  Even writing the free space on home computers slightly raises someone's electricity costs.
20:34 < bramc> kanzure, I'm saying I've come up with a way of achieving decentralized consensus which leverages existing depreciating resources as the cost rather than new electricity burning as the cost
20:34 < bramc> or rather, am in the process of coming up with, still iterating.
20:34 < kanzure> that doesn't answer my question :(
20:35 < kanzure> and it is wrong of you to pretend it does?
20:35 < everettForth> bsm117532: the cost curves are very strange when you look at home users spare usage vs datacenter cost
20:35 < bramc> kanzure, Would you like the technical details?
20:35 < kanzure> bramc: please read my question again. i could also try to ask it again.
20:35 < kanzure> with different words and stuff.
20:36 < everettForth> using an extra GB of my drive is not costless, but it's less than what it costs amazon to add another GB of disk
20:36 < everettForth> of course, that's assuming I had the drive and computer running anyway
20:37 < rusty> bramc: I think you end up centralized anyway.  You just hope they repurpose old drives from data centers, rather than buying new ones.
20:37 < bramc> kanzure, bitcoin burns a bunch of electricity to achieve decentralized consensus, which is 'waste' if you can achieve the same result without burning the electricity. The electricity burning doesn't add anything to the moral value of the consensus
20:37 < kanzure> bramc: (just as a point of clarification, i was not asking whether you claim to have or be working on an attempt at non-wasteful decentralized consensus)
20:37 < bramc> rusty, Could be, I don't view that as such a bad thing, it still results in a massive security parameter
20:38 < bsm117532> If burning external resources is the value in PoW, why not use burning of BTC? (or other cryptographically-provable resource destruction)  Saves the environment.
20:38 < kanzure> bsm117532: bitcoin is part of the environment, btw
20:38 < everettForth> Just curious, is there a reason why not to consider PoS, PoSV, or Tendermint's approach?
20:39 < bsm117532> everettForth: Don't get me started.  They're all fucking jokes.
20:39 < bramc> rusty, I'm expecting/hoping that the ones mining will be a heterogenous lot, because of the marginal cost of mining being de minimis
20:39 < bsm117532> If you really want to talk about that, let's start a private chat and I'll rip them each to shreds.
20:39 < rusty> bramc: I don't think that happens, that just leads us to warring botnets mining.
20:40 < rusty> bramc: and unlike bitcoin it won't happen slowly, given the tech is now already on the shelf.
20:41 < bramc> bsm117532, anything which drives up the price of burned resources will cause more waste, but that's basically the argument for merge mining over starting new cryptocurrencies
20:41 < kanzure> where's our physicists argh, they should be showing up any moment to talk about the thermodynamics of reversible computation and how burning works
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20:43 < kanzure> there's a few steps that i'm missing in the thermodynamics of computation that would be very useful to insert here in this conversation
20:43 < everettForth> kanzure: we are many orders of magnitude away from that limit
20:43 < kanzure> oh sure
20:43 < kanzure> why would you mention that though
20:43 < bramc> rusty, Why wouldn't a counterparty mine if they can do it at no additional cost to the capacity they already have sitting around depreciating?
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20:44 < bsm117532> bramc: I'm all over merge mining.
20:44 < kanzure> "The implementation of reversible computing thus amounts to learning how to characterize and control the physical dynamics of mechanisms to carry out desired computational operations so precisely that we can accumulate a negligible total amount of uncertainty regarding the complete physical state of the mechanism, per each logic operation that is performed. In other words, we would need to precisely track the state of the active energy ...
20:44 < kanzure> ... that is involved in carrying out computational operations within the machine, and design the machine in such a way that the majority of this energy is recovered in an organized form that can be reused for subsequent operations, rather than being permitted to dissipate into the form of heat."
20:44 < kanzure> hmm this is a rather preachy wikipedia article
20:45 < Taek> bramc: if it's already not worth spinning up the drives and using them in a cloud service like s3, why would it be useful to spin it up for something that would make less money than selling over a cloud service? (maybe lower overhead to participate in your financial network?)
20:45 < rusty> bramc: Because google or any cloud operator have more profitable things to do with their hdds.  So what's left?  Lots of home capacity, and medium businesses.
20:46 < bramc> Taek, a lot of unused capacity is already spun up
20:46 < kanzure> "Any non-equilibrium physical system (whether a computer or a rock) dissipates energy at some rate, however small, because of the always non-zero probability of interaction between parts of the system (or between a part of the system and a part of its environment) that are at different temperatures, or in different physical states.  Even the very atoms in a computer (or a rock) are very slowly dissipating away into its surrounding ...
20:46 < kanzure> ... environment.  Furthermore, no real physical system is ever in absolutely perfect equilibrium, since the only true equilibrium state would be if the entire universe were uniformly filled with a gas of elementary particles that was neither expanding or contracting, but such a state is unstable in general relativity, even with a nonzero cosmological constant.  An equilibrium scenario is not a possible future state of our universe."
20:46 < bramc> rusty, there's always unused capacity at any given moment, even for an efficiently run operation
20:46 < Taek> oh, that makes sense
20:47 < everettForth> yes kanzure x86 cpus are many orders of magnitude away from entropy due to bits being erased being a significant part of the energy usage
20:47 < rusty> bramc: sure, but they keep it as low as possible.  There's more fat in smaller operations, which feeds your "many small players" scenario.  And also, botnets.
20:47 < bramc> kanzure, reversible computing is decades out if ever, and the costs to the stuff I'm talking about for mining, while technically not zero, is very close to it
20:47 < bramc> rusty, Undoubtedly botnets will participate
20:48 < kanzure> no, your concerns were waste, not cost :(
20:49 < rusty> bramc: if there are enough warring botnets, at least that will add to your network security :)
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20:49 < bramc> kanzure, sunk costs are costs too
20:49 < everettForth> kanzure: cost is directly proportional to waste when talking about computing resources
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20:53 < bramc> tromp, even though n-n^.5 requires squaring n, it doesn't result in that much of an increase in the signature size, thanks to my new trick. It mostly winds up undoing some compression tricks, one of which gets you a factor of 2 and the other of which, winternitz compression, gets you a lot more at the expense of lots of cpu
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20:58 < kanzure> i am still considering "The electricity burning doesn't add anything to the moral value of the consensus" might take me a while to cook on this on
20:58 < kanzure> *on this one
20:59 < kanzure> if decentralized consensus doesn't work at all and is completely broken, then it is very easy to argue that mining is definitely waste
20:59 < kanzure> but the other scenarios are more difficult to figure out
21:00 < Taek> also you could pretty easily argue that mining is a waste if there was some magical way to get superlinear security on your input resources.
21:01 < kanzure> i am not deep enough into maaku's headspace to argue that one at the moment haha
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21:06 < kanzure> alright here's some relevant reversible scifi since i'm gonna sleep now On the last night of the world, the gods decreed for themselves a revel, a final masquerade in which they took on their long-discarded human forms and spent themselves in orgiastic and drunken festivity. It was a wake for spacetime itself.
21:06 < kanzure> The numbers of the gods had dwindled through the long middle age of the Universe. Each was a vast and unique information structure, grown from a merely human seed. Augmented and elaborated first in magnitude and then in kind, each became a god, a single mind as complex as a civilization or an entire ecosystem, with instrumentality capable of manipulating individual molecules or entire galaxies. A wave of transformation had spread out ...
21:06 < kanzure> ... from the birth-world of the gods, a phase-change that swept through all space-time and transformed it to the liking of the gods. Their capabilities were bounded only by the limits of what was possible.
21:06 < kanzure> whoops
21:06 < kanzure> http://heybryan.org/docs/The%20Masque%20of%20the%20Heat%20Death%20-%20David%20Krieger.html
21:08 < kanzure> (i think asimov also had a reversible computation pro-negentropy thing too?) /sleep
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