--- Log opened Thu Feb 19 00:00:58 2015 00:06 -!- fanquake [~anonymous@unaffiliated/fanquake] has quit [Quit: fanquake] 00:10 -!- Pan0ram1x [~Pan0ram1x@095-096-084-122.static.chello.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:17 -!- Pan0ram1x [~Pan0ram1x@095-096-084-122.static.chello.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:18 -!- SDCDev [~quassel@vc-gp-n-41-13-246-67.umts.vodacom.co.za] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:18 -!- SDCDev [~quassel@vc-gp-n-41-13-246-67.umts.vodacom.co.za] has quit [Changing host] 00:18 -!- SDCDev [~quassel@unaffiliated/sdcdev] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:23 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has quit [Quit: Bye] 00:23 -!- adam3us [~Adium@88-105-6-39.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:23 -!- ortutay [~marcell@c-98-248-47-197.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ortutay] 00:24 -!- adam3us [~Adium@88-105-6-39.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:26 -!- adam3us1 [~Adium@wilkins2.static.monkeybrains.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:28 -!- adam3us [~Adium@88-105-6-39.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:28 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-101.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:29 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-101.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:34 -!- Logicwax [~Logicwax@c-50-161-23-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:37 -!- orperelman [~orperelma@bzq-79-181-128-67.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:40 -!- fanquake [~anonymous@unaffiliated/fanquake] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:43 -!- licnep [uid4387@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-kcwoglehcidwvogq] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 00:52 -!- Logicwax [~Logicwax@c-50-161-23-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: rm -rf /] 00:53 -!- ortutay [~marcell@c-98-248-47-197.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:55 -!- Profreid [~Profreitt@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/profreid] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:57 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:57 -!- Profreid [~Profreitt@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/profreid] has quit [Client Quit] 01:01 -!- ortutay [~marcell@c-98-248-47-197.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ortutay] 01:02 -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:05 -!- andy-logbot [~bitcoin--@wpsoftware.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:05 -!- andy-logbot [~bitcoin--@wpsoftware.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:05 * andy-logbot is logging 01:05 -!- oujh [~vfbtgn@188.27.93.28] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:05 -!- CoinMuncher [~jannes@178.132.211.90] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:06 -!- Logicwax [~Logicwax@c-50-161-23-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:06 -!- ortutay [~marcell@c-98-248-47-197.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:08 -!- ortutay [~marcell@c-98-248-47-197.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:16 -!- adam3us1 [~Adium@wilkins2.static.monkeybrains.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:16 -!- SDCDev [~quassel@unaffiliated/sdcdev] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:19 -!- rubensayshi [~ruben@91.206.81.13] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:27 -!- Logicwax [~Logicwax@c-50-161-23-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: rm -rf /] 01:30 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:34 -!- adam3us [~Adium@88-105-6-39.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:37 -!- TonyClifton [~TonyClift@gateway-nat.fmrib.ox.ac.uk] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:38 -!- adam3us1 [~Adium@wilkins2.static.monkeybrains.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:39 -!- adam3us [~Adium@88-105-6-39.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:48 -!- aburan28 [~ubuntu@static-108-45-93-72.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:59 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@86.125.49.61] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:00 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:304:cff8:1580:908c:2ed5:985e:fa75] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:03 -!- hearn [~mike@84-75-198-85.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:23 -!- Mably [56401ec3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.86.64.30.195] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:23 -!- MoALTz [~no@78.11.179.104] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:28 -!- bsm117532 [~bsm117532@static-108-21-236-13.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:30 -!- lclc is now known as lclc_bnc 02:31 -!- Logicwax [~Logicwax@c-50-161-23-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:35 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:39 -!- bedeho [~bedeho@195.159.234.190] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 02:43 -!- siraj_ [~siraj@115.97.9.210] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:46 -!- Logicwax [~Logicwax@c-50-161-23-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: rm -rf /] 02:46 -!- siraj_ [~siraj@115.97.9.210] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:48 -!- adam3us1 [~Adium@wilkins2.static.monkeybrains.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:48 -!- hashtagg [~hashtagg_@CPE-69-23-213-3.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:50 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@86.125.49.61] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:50 -!- hashtag_ [~hashtagg_@CPE-69-23-213-3.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:52 -!- erasmospunk [~erasmospu@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/erasmospunk] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:52 -!- siraj_ [~siraj@115.97.9.210] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:54 -!- Logicwax [~Logicwax@c-50-161-23-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:55 -!- bedeho [~bedeho@195.159.234.190] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:56 -!- berndj [~berndj@azna.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:57 -!- berndj [~berndj@azna.co.za] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:00 -!- dc17523be3 [unknown@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-zdxgazusmltlmqvg] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:04 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:12 -!- adam3us [~Adium@wilkins2.static.monkeybrains.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:14 -!- adam3us [~Adium@wilkins2.static.monkeybrains.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:15 -!- adam3us [~Adium@88-105-6-39.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:15 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:15 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Excess Flood] 03:15 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:15 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Excess Flood] 03:16 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:18 -!- adam3us1 [~Adium@wilkins2.static.monkeybrains.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:19 -!- Logicwax [~Logicwax@c-50-161-23-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: rm -rf /] 03:19 -!- adam3us [~Adium@88-105-6-39.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:27 -!- MoALTz [~no@78.11.179.104] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:28 -!- Logicwax [Logicwax@c-50-161-23-192.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:32 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@78.11.179.104] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:34 -!- MoALTz [~no@78.11.179.104] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:34 -!- MoALTz__ [~no@78.11.179.104] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:37 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@78.11.179.104] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:42 -!- adam3us1 [~Adium@wilkins2.static.monkeybrains.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:47 -!- hearn [~mike@84-75-198-85.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 03:51 -!- adam3us [~Adium@88-105-6-39.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:52 -!- paveljanik [~paveljani@unaffiliated/paveljanik] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:53 -!- adam3us1 [~Adium@wilkins2.static.monkeybrains.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:55 -!- adam3us [~Adium@88-105-6-39.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:00 -!- p15 [~p15@198.50.160.97.static-ca.cryptolayer.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:02 -!- p15 [~p15@114.244.151.115] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:03 -!- adam3us1 [~Adium@wilkins2.static.monkeybrains.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:04 -!- siraj_ [~siraj@115.97.9.210] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:14 -!- oujh [~vfbtgn@188.27.94.107] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:19 -!- adam3us [~Adium@88-105-6-39.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:21 -!- adam3us1 [~Adium@wilkins2.static.monkeybrains.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:23 -!- adam3us [~Adium@88-105-6-39.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:26 -!- fanquake_ [~anonymous@unaffiliated/fanquake] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:26 -!- fanquake [~anonymous@unaffiliated/fanquake] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:26 -!- fanquake_ is now known as fanquake 04:46 -!- OneNomos [~OneNomos@pool-71-163-229-125.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:49 -!- hearn [~mike@185.25.95.132] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:49 -!- bsm117532 [~bsm117532@static-108-21-236-13.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:52 -!- OneNomos [~OneNomos@pool-71-163-229-125.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:54 -!- shesek [~shesek@IGLD-84-228-193-11.inter.net.il] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:00 -!- fanquake_ [~anonymous@unaffiliated/fanquake] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:02 -!- fanquake [~anonymous@unaffiliated/fanquake] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:02 -!- fanquake_ is now known as fanquake 05:08 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:304:cff8:1580:908c:2ed5:985e:fa75] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:08 -!- OneNomos [~OneNomos@pool-71-178-103-177.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:13 -!- OneNomos [~OneNomos@pool-71-178-103-177.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:16 -!- erasmosp_ [~erasmospu@net-2-38-211-181.cust.vodafonedsl.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:16 -!- adam3us [~Adium@88-105-6-39.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:18 -!- erasmospunk [~erasmospu@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/erasmospunk] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 05:18 -!- erasmos__ [~erasmospu@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/erasmospunk] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:20 -!- adam3us1 [~Adium@wilkins2.static.monkeybrains.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:20 -!- erasmosp_ [~erasmospu@net-2-38-211-181.cust.vodafonedsl.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:21 -!- shesek [~shesek@IGLD-84-228-252-139.inter.net.il] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:23 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-50-230-108.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:29 -!- OneNomos [~OneNomos@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/onenomos] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:30 -!- Quanttek [~quassel@ip1f1171b4.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:33 -!- hashtag [~hashtag@CPE-69-23-213-3.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:38 -!- hearn [~mike@185.25.95.132] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 05:47 -!- antgreen [~user@CPE687f74122463-CM84948c2e0610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:49 -!- koshii_ [~0@node-bta.pool-101-108.dynamic.totbb.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:49 -!- koshii [~0@node-bta.pool-101-108.dynamic.totbb.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:49 -!- MoALTz__ [~no@78.11.179.104] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 05:50 -!- MoALTz [~no@78.11.179.104] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:57 -!- hashtag [~hashtag@cpe-98-157-219-44.ma.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:02 -!- lclc_bnc is now known as lclc 06:03 -!- lmatteis [uid3300@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-khzjaujzqeowfibx] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:12 -!- hearn [~mike@185.25.95.132] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:13 -!- Mably [56401ec3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.86.64.30.195] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 06:14 -!- embicoin [~chatzilla@INTERFIBRA-37-25-40-160.CPEs.villena.interfibra.es] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:14 -!- bsm117532 [~bsm117532@static-108-21-236-13.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:15 -!- droark [~droark@209-6-53-207.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: ZZZzzz…] 06:16 -!- embicoin [~chatzilla@INTERFIBRA-37-25-40-160.CPEs.villena.interfibra.es] has quit [Changing host] 06:16 -!- embicoin [~chatzilla@unaffiliated/embicoin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:18 -!- maraoz [~maraoz@43-161-16-190.fibertel.com.ar] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:21 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:30 -!- Profreid [~Profreitt@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/profreid] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:33 -!- amidvidy [~user@207-38-151-208.c3-0.avec-ubr2.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:34 -!- Mably [56401ec3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.86.64.30.195] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:35 -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@gtng-4d08d272.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:38 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@unaffiliated/dr-g] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:45 -!- amidvidy [~user@207-38-151-208.c3-0.avec-ubr2.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 06:46 -!- droark [~droark@173-162-150-61-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:51 -!- execut3 [~shesek@77.125.95.212] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:53 -!- shesek [~shesek@IGLD-84-228-252-139.inter.net.il] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:07 -!- execut3 [~shesek@77.125.95.212] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:12 -!- zooko [~user@c-75-70-204-109.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:12 -!- zooko [~user@c-75-70-204-109.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:12 -!- zooko [~user@c-75-70-204-109.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:19 < kanzure> "The ledger is openly viewable by all, so no PoR audits are necessary" big mistake 07:22 -!- execut3 [~shesek@77.125.95.212] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:27 -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:27 -!- hearn [~mike@185.25.95.132] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 07:27 -!- hashtag_ [~hashtagg_@CPE-69-23-213-3.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:28 -!- d1ggy [~d1ggy@dslb-088-071-013-104.088.071.pools.vodafone-ip.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:30 -!- hashtagg [~hashtagg_@CPE-69-23-213-3.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:30 -!- d1ggy_ [~d1ggy@dslb-088-071-013-104.088.071.pools.vodafone-ip.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:38 < nsh> PoR? proof-of-[revenue?] 07:38 < nsh> retriveability? 07:39 < kanzure> reserves, i think 07:40 < nsh> ah 07:40 < nsh> yeah, that's bad logic 07:48 -!- Luke-Jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has quit [Excess Flood] 07:49 -!- Luke-Jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:05 -!- c0rw1n [~c0rw1n@91.176.85.209] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:20 -!- hearn [~mike@84-75-198-85.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:40 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-101.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:40 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-101.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:43 -!- orik [~orik@50-46-132-219.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:45 -!- licnep [uid4387@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-iwuyxbtmefmgdrzz] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:52 -!- dc17523be3 [unknown@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-ymlygknbmidyjnbb] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:53 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@86.125.49.61] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:02 -!- jtimon [~quassel@wilkins2.static.monkeybrains.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:02 -!- hashtag_ [~hashtagg_@CPE-69-23-213-3.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:03 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:304:cff8:1580:908c:2ed5:985e:fa75] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 09:06 -!- aburan28 [~ubuntu@static-108-45-93-72.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:09 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:304:cff8:1580:fcc4:9d86:1013:fa9f] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:12 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-50-230-108.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:16 -!- orik [~orik@50-46-132-219.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 09:18 -!- SDCDev [~quassel@unaffiliated/sdcdev] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:21 -!- flower [~user@202.44.238.15] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 09:22 -!- flower [~user@202.44.238.15] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:23 -!- flower [~user@202.44.238.15] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 09:24 -!- flower [~user@202.44.238.15] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:24 -!- oujh [~vfbtgn@188.27.94.107] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:25 -!- flower [~user@202.44.238.15] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 09:26 -!- flower [~user@202.44.238.15] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:30 -!- Mably [56401ec3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.86.64.30.195] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 09:31 -!- lclc is now known as lclc_bnc 09:32 < adam3us> i think proof of reserve is slightly limited in the sense that its good to see real time status but you can also watch in slo-mo as someone steals the hot-wallet. visibility but still lose your money. 09:34 < kanzure> yes but they were saying have a list of addresses and outputs instead 09:35 < kanzure> which tells you nothing about whether the corresponding private keys are known 09:35 < adam3us> yes improvement over that or nothing for sure 09:36 -!- dabura667 [uid43070@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-snelnidbdbkelpiy] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:39 < dabura667> https://gist.github.com/dabura667/875bb2c159b219c18885 09:39 < dabura667> I tried to make it legible. Sorry English is not my forte. 09:40 < kanzure> .title 09:40 < dabura667> Anyone with comments please let me know, I'd appreciate it. 09:40 < yoleaux> A proposal for an improved HD wallet generation algorithm 09:40 < Luke-Jr> improved how? 09:40 < dabura667> Title: A proposal for an improved HD wallet generation algorithm 09:41 < sipa> dabura667: there was a talk at FC15 about to extend the bip32 derivation to an arbitrary (but fixed) number of leaks 09:41 < dabura667> sipa: if you set it to tolerate 1 leak, you can use convention to prevent the attack. 09:42 < dabura667> Anywho, my propsal gets into some specifics. 09:43 < dabura667> I have already received feedback from sipa before on the attack method with 2 leaked keys. Now I am just hammering down the details and would appreciate any criticism or help. 09:45 < sipa> dabura667: read the fc15 paper, it gives a generic construction for an arbitrary number of leaks 09:46 < sipa> http://fc15.ifca.ai/preproceedings/paper_15.pdf 09:47 < dabura667> thx 09:49 -!- Quanttek [~quassel@ip1f1171b4.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:55 < dabura667> my proposal tolerates unlimited key leaks as long as rules are followed. So instead of having a 700 byte xprv for a 20 department company, 2 keys (A and B) are all that is needed in the extended keys. 09:56 < dabura667> maybe my dirty proposal is not worthy of disproving, but I think it is sound. I will start coding an implementation soon to test it out in python. 09:57 < sipa> coding it will not teach you how it can be broken 09:57 < dabura667> yes I am aware. 09:58 -!- GAit [~lnahum@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:00 -!- GAit [~lnahum@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:06 -!- Mably [~Mably@unaffiliated/mably] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:10 -!- lclc_bnc is now known as lclc 10:26 < stonecoldpat> dabura667: all reasonably written proposals that are interesting in my books are worthy of being disproven ;) 10:27 < nsh> unfortunately, this tends towards attrition of the limited time of people capable of disproving things 10:27 < nsh> which for any given proposal might often be better spent elsewhere 10:32 < stonecoldpat> nsh: thats true, i mentioned the disclaimer "interesting" for that reason :) 10:32 -!- espes__ [~espes@205.185.120.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:32 -!- qwopqwop [~hi@209.141.33.28] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:32 -!- qwopqwop [~hi@209.141.33.28] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:33 * nsh nods 10:33 -!- TonyClifton [~TonyClift@gateway-nat.fmrib.ox.ac.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:33 < nsh> the problem is that the number of ways to not quite achieve interesting properties >> interesting properties 10:33 < nsh> sadly :) 10:33 -!- espes__ [~espes@205.185.120.132] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:37 -!- CoinMuncher [~jannes@178.132.211.90] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:40 -!- oujh [~vfbtgn@188.27.91.32] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:44 -!- oujh [~vfbtgn@188.27.91.32] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:44 -!- SDCDev [~quassel@unaffiliated/sdcdev] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:47 -!- ortutay [~marcell@216.239.45.74] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:51 -!- Starduster_ [~guest@unaffiliated/starduster] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:51 -!- pavel_ [~paveljani@79-98-72-216.sys-data.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:51 -!- pavel_ [~paveljani@79-98-72-216.sys-data.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:52 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@86.125.49.61] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:52 -!- paveljanik [~paveljani@unaffiliated/paveljanik] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:53 -!- Starduster [~guest@unaffiliated/starduster] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:54 -!- rubensayshi [~ruben@91.206.81.13] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:56 -!- jtimon [~quassel@wilkins2.static.monkeybrains.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:58 -!- SDCDev [~quassel@unaffiliated/sdcdev] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:59 -!- jtimon [~quassel@172.56.6.10] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:00 -!- paveljanik [~paveljani@unaffiliated/paveljanik] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:04 -!- hashtag_ [~hashtagg_@CPE-69-23-213-3.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:10 -!- lmatteis [uid3300@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-khzjaujzqeowfibx] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 11:10 -!- btcdrak [uid52049@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lsfxbbgxhocqdpvg] has quit [] 11:14 -!- jtimon [~quassel@172.56.6.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:15 -!- jtimon [~quassel@173-228-107-141.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:20 -!- TonyClifton [~TonyClift@cpc69058-oxfd26-2-0-cust984.4-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:20 -!- nuke1989 [~nuke@46-91-100.adsl.cyta.gr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:21 -!- nuke1989 [~nuke@46-91-100.adsl.cyta.gr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:22 -!- TonyClif_ [~TonyClift@gateway-nat.fmrib.ox.ac.uk] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:25 -!- koshii [~0@node-bta.pool-101-108.dynamic.totbb.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:25 -!- TonyClifton [~TonyClift@cpc69058-oxfd26-2-0-cust984.4-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:28 -!- adam3us [~Adium@88-105-6-39.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:29 -!- adam3us [~Adium@88-105-6-39.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:30 -!- koshii [~0@node-7j6.pool-101-108.dynamic.totbb.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:31 -!- adam3us1 [~Adium@wilkins2.static.monkeybrains.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:33 -!- adam3us [~Adium@88-105-6-39.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:37 -!- hearn [~mike@84-75-198-85.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 11:42 -!- orperelman [~orperelma@bzq-79-181-128-67.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:45 -!- Quanttek [~quassel@ip1f1171b4.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:48 -!- lclc is now known as lclc_bnc 11:55 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:59 -!- coiner [~linker@113.190.61.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:00 -!- TonyClif_ [~TonyClift@gateway-nat.fmrib.ox.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:02 -!- ortutay [~marcell@216.239.45.74] has quit [Quit: ortutay] 12:11 -!- ortutay [~marcell@216.239.45.82] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:19 -!- moa [~kiwigb@opentransactions/dev/moa] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:23 -!- btcdrak [uid52049@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qlomejkaykrflywz] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:32 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@78.11.179.104] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:33 -!- oujh [~vfbtgn@188.25.33.186] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:35 -!- MoALTz [~no@78.11.179.104] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:36 -!- adam3us [~Adium@88-105-6-39.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:36 -!- oujh [~vfbtgn@188.25.33.186] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:37 -!- oujh [~vfbtgn@188.25.22.149] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:39 -!- Profreid [~Profreitt@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/profreid] has quit [Quit: Profreid] 12:39 -!- adam3us1 [~Adium@wilkins2.static.monkeybrains.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:41 -!- adam3us [~Adium@88-105-6-39.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:41 -!- adam3us [~Adium@88-105-6-39.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:45 -!- Luke-Jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:45 -!- Luke-Jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:45 -!- StephenM347_ [40dff6da@gateway/web/freenode/ip.64.223.246.218] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:49 -!- siraj_ [~siraj@115.97.9.210] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:52 -!- TonyClifton [~TonyClift@cpc69058-oxfd26-2-0-cust984.4-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:02 -!- adam3us [~Adium@88-105-6-39.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 13:03 -!- adam3us [~Adium@88-105-6-39.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:09 -!- SDCDev [~quassel@unaffiliated/sdcdev] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:10 -!- melvster [~melvster@ip-86-49-18-198.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:11 -!- melvster [~melvster@ip-86-49-18-198.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:16 -!- dabura667 [uid43070@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-snelnidbdbkelpiy] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 13:16 -!- maraoz [~maraoz@43-161-16-190.fibertel.com.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:19 -!- PaulCapestany [~PaulCapes@204.28.124.82] has quit [] 13:21 -!- PaulCapestany [~PaulCapes@204.28.124.82] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:24 -!- orik [~orik@50-46-132-219.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:29 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:304:cff8:1580:fcc4:9d86:1013:fa9f] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:29 -!- paveljanik [~paveljani@unaffiliated/paveljanik] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:33 -!- tcrypt [~tylersmit@173.247.206.110] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:35 -!- adam3us [~Adium@88-105-6-39.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 13:35 -!- adam3us [~Adium@88-105-6-39.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:37 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-101.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:37 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-101.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:41 -!- jtimon [~quassel@173-228-107-141.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:41 < Adlai> kanzure: (i think asimov also had a reversible computation pro-negentropy thing too?) << maybe http://www.multivax.com/last_question.html ? 13:42 -!- jtimon [~quassel@wilkins2.static.monkeybrains.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:44 < kanzure> possibly. 13:44 < nsh> so did the vedas... 13:44 < nsh> nothing is new under the sun 13:53 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:54 -!- belcher [~belcher-s@bcdc19e0.skybroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:54 -!- belcher [~belcher-s@bcdc19e0.skybroadband.com] has quit [Changing host] 13:54 -!- belcher [~belcher-s@unaffiliated/belcher] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:55 -!- orik [~orik@50-46-132-219.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 13:57 -!- orik [~orik@50-46-132-219.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:58 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Client Quit] 13:58 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:304:cff8:1580:780f:788e:ef71:ed73] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:02 -!- hashtag [~hashtag@cpe-98-157-219-44.ma.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:19 -!- TonyClifton [~TonyClift@cpc69058-oxfd26-2-0-cust984.4-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:30 < gmaxwell> I thought about mentioning the last question but it didn't quite match and you didn't ask for the most sublime piece of short science fiction ever authored, and so I figured that wasn't what you were asking for. 14:30 < Adlai> dunno, Feeling of Power comes close in my ranking 14:31 < Adlai> http://downlode.org/Etext/power.html (also asimov) 14:32 * nsh smiles 14:32 < gmaxwell> Asimov himself said that TLQ was his favorite :) 14:32 < nsh> feeling of power gave me much more of an impulse than the end of the last question 14:32 -!- adam3us1 [~Adium@wilkins2.static.monkeybrains.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:32 < nsh> but they're complementary anyway 14:33 < nsh> i think TLQ is a bit more bellygudfeels 14:33 < nsh> oh wait, i was conflating feeling of power with another story even 14:33 < nsh> the one about jokes 14:34 -!- adam3us [~Adium@88-105-6-39.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:35 < nsh> (jokester) 14:35 < nsh> the reveal in that is a kind of conceptual hitchcock zoom 14:35 < Adlai> nsh: haven't read this one yet, thanq 14:35 < nsh> enjoy :) 14:35 -!- hearn [~mike@84-75-198-85.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:37 -!- hashtag [~hashtag@CPE-69-23-213-3.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:40 -!- antgreen [~user@out-on-211.wireless.telus.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:52 -!- orik [~orik@50-46-132-219.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 14:53 -!- TonyClifton [~TonyClift@host86-147-75-177.range86-147.btcentralplus.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:54 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-101.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:54 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-101.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:56 -!- Quanttek [~quassel@ip1f1171b4.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:57 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:01 -!- orik [~orik@50-46-132-219.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:02 -!- antgreen [~user@out-on-211.wireless.telus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:03 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:15 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:17 -!- lclc_bnc [~lclc@unaffiliated/lclc] has quit [Quit: bye] 15:20 -!- zooko` [~user@c-75-70-204-109.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:21 -!- dabura667 [uid43070@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wwqchsnhqwtlimmj] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:21 -!- zooko [~user@c-75-70-204-109.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:22 -!- StephenM347_ [40dff6da@gateway/web/freenode/ip.64.223.246.218] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 15:23 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:24 -!- zooko`` [~user@c-75-70-204-109.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:26 -!- zooko` [~user@c-75-70-204-109.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:32 -!- droark [~droark@173-162-150-61-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: ZZZzzz…] 15:32 -!- Mably [~Mably@unaffiliated/mably] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:38 -!- orperelman [~orperelma@bzq-79-181-128-67.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:48 -!- adam3us1 [~Adium@wilkins2.static.monkeybrains.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:49 -!- erasmos__ [~erasmospu@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/erasmospunk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:49 -!- adam3us [~Adium@wilkins2.static.monkeybrains.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:53 -!- zooko``` [~user@97-122-248-173.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:55 -!- TonyClif_ [~TonyClift@gateway-nat.fmrib.ox.ac.uk] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:55 -!- zooko`` [~user@c-75-70-204-109.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:56 -!- zooko``` is now known as zooko 15:56 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-101.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:57 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-101.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:57 -!- TonyClifton [~TonyClift@host86-147-75-177.range86-147.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:58 -!- OneNomos [~OneNomos@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/onenomos] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:01 -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:02 -!- TonyClif_ [~TonyClift@gateway-nat.fmrib.ox.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:05 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@86.125.49.61] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:10 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-101.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:10 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-101.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:10 -!- jaekwon [~jaekwon@75-101-96-71.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [] 16:13 -!- droark [~droark@209-6-53-207.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:27 -!- zooko` [~user@c-75-70-204-109.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:29 -!- zooko [~user@97-122-248-173.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:32 -!- hearn [~mike@84-75-198-85.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 16:34 -!- gmaxwell [greg@wikimedia/KatWalsh/x-0001] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:39 -!- jaekwon [~jaekwon@75-101-96-71.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:40 -!- zooko` is now known as zooko 16:42 -!- gmaxwell [greg@mf4-xiph.osuosl.org] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:43 -!- gmaxwell is now known as Guest17803 16:44 -!- SDCDev [~quassel@unaffiliated/sdcdev] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:46 -!- Guest17803 [greg@mf4-xiph.osuosl.org] has quit [Changing host] 16:46 -!- Guest17803 [greg@wikimedia/KatWalsh/x-0001] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:46 -!- Guest17803 is now known as gmaxwell 16:53 -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:01 -!- woah [~woah@presence.static.monkeybrains.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:10 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-101.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:10 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-101.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:12 -!- woah [~woah@presence.static.monkeybrains.net] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 17:26 -!- belcher [~belcher-s@unaffiliated/belcher] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:26 -!- dabura667 [uid43070@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wwqchsnhqwtlimmj] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 17:29 -!- moa [~kiwigb@opentransactions/dev/moa] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:30 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:30 -!- SDCDev [~quassel@unaffiliated/sdcdev] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:32 -!- SDCDev [~quassel@unaffiliated/sdcdev] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:34 -!- ortutay [~marcell@216.239.45.82] has quit [Quit: ortutay] 17:37 -!- orperelman [~orperelma@bzq-79-181-128-67.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:39 -!- SDCDev [~quassel@unaffiliated/sdcdev] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:43 -!- berndj [~berndj@azna.co.za] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 17:43 -!- berndj [~berndj@azna.co.za] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:52 -!- adam3us [~Adium@wilkins2.static.monkeybrains.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:53 < amiller> okay i'm thikning about variations on nonoutsourceable puzzle arrangements 17:54 < amiller> as i try vainly/desperately to fix my paper so it can get published. 17:54 < nsh> can you define nonoutsourceable puzzle arrangements a little more? 17:54 < nsh> as in merkle puzzles? 17:55 < amiller> okay to recap, the basic structure i have is a puzzle with an optional zk proof 17:55 < nsh> puzzle being something that's computationally hard to determine from the inputs? 17:56 < amiller> where you can prove, "i know a puzzle solution pointing to previous block P" without indicating what it is 17:56 * nsh nods 17:56 < amiller> er you reveal the prevhash P, but nothing about any transactions you may have committed to, nothing about the nonce 17:56 < amiller> now, i make it the zk thing optional because it's a pain to actually have to produce these proofs, but it can be done in say 15 seconds if you have enough parallel cpu 17:57 < amiller> but, 17:57 < amiller> if there are no pools, and everything else is the same, then no one would want to play at all. 17:57 < amiller> since the variance is so high, you spend $2k on a rig you're still not seeing a block in the next year most likely 17:58 < amiller> now my handwavy solution so far has been, well lets lower the block time 17:59 < amiller> but that's really not that good a solutino 17:59 < amiller> if the block time were put that low, then that 15 second time would be kind of prohibitive 18:00 < amiller> so here are some of the basic options i'm considering now: 18:00 < amiller> 1) suppose there's some chance of winning a "lucky" block, and the lucky block might count for a little bit more difficulty (to offset the time it takes to make a zk proof) and a lot more reward 18:01 < amiller> like, one out of 4096 blocks gets a 100x reward, and counts for 10x difficulty 18:02 < amiller> (measures of the average difficulty rate and expected reward would need to take that into account) 18:02 < amiller> okay that's one component not a whole solution. 18:03 < nsh> [phonecall, bbiab] 18:03 < amiller> component 2) what if you can basically reveal some information more than the prevhash, but only if that extra information is itself a sub-difficulty proof of work chain? 18:03 < amiller> or to put it another way, 18:03 < amiller> you can reveal enough information that you can participate in p2pool 18:05 < amiller> let me recap the two extremes and why i've previously settled on one. 18:06 < amiller> the first extreme is that you reveal the prevhash, and the merkle root of transactions you were committing to, but use zk proofs to hide the nonce and maybe some details that would ordinarily be in the coinbase tx 18:06 < amiller> the reason this defeats the nonoutsourceability premise is that 18:06 < amiller> a pool could catch defectors by basically assigning a unique sentinel transaction in the merkle root of the work it hands out to each different user 18:07 < gmaxwell> If a pool is handing out tx sets that depending on a old model of pooling that really should go away. 18:08 < gmaxwell> (there is no reason for pools to manage the consensus, miners should be able to pick the chain/tx sets themselves and have pools pay them on the basis of coinbase outputs) 18:08 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:304:cff8:1580:780f:788e:ef71:ed73] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:09 < amiller> yeah but that doesn't matter in this context 18:09 < amiller> the scenario here is, suppose pools are trying to find ways of still existing despite a nonoutsourceable puzzle that tries to make them not work 18:10 -!- espes__ [~espes@205.185.120.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:10 < gmaxwell> oh sorry, yea, my error there. 18:10 -!- d1ggy_ [~d1ggy@dslb-088-071-010-176.088.071.pools.vodafone-ip.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:10 < gmaxwell> (I was reading LIFO) 18:10 < amiller> heh, now that you know what i'm trying to talk about again you may want to tune out :p 18:11 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:304:cff8:1580:780f:788e:ef71:ed73] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:11 -!- amidvidy [~user@207-38-151-208.c3-0.avec-ubr2.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:11 < amiller> okay so the other extreme, which is the main assumption i've been working in for describing nonoutsourceable puzzles, is you reveal as little about any committed informaiton as you possibly can 18:12 < amiller> no merkle root, no nonce, no timestamp, just the prevhash, which seems unavoidable. 18:12 < amiller> okay so this extreme sucks because it breaks P2Pool 18:12 -!- amidvidy [~user@207-38-151-208.c3-0.avec-ubr2.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:12 < amiller> throwing the baby out with the bathwater so to speak 18:13 -!- d1ggy [~d1ggy@dslb-088-071-013-104.088.071.pools.vodafone-ip.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:13 < amiller> that's becuase p2pool works by showing other people your near-miss work shares, and showing that the work you were doing would have paid out to them if you had won. 18:15 -!- zooko` [~user@c-75-70-204-109.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:16 -!- zooko [~user@c-75-70-204-109.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:19 -!- espes__ [~espes@205.185.120.132] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:20 < amiller> okay so, 18:20 < amiller> a compromise between those extremes 18:20 < amiller> is to allow the zk proof to reveal more than just the prevhash, 18:21 < amiller> but something that makes adding per-user watermarks harder. 18:21 -!- fanquake_ [~anonymous@unaffiliated/fanquake] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:21 < amiller> you could allow the zk proof to reveal a p2pool-like shares-chain 18:22 < amiller> since it has to come with some valid work, it wouldn't be possible to freely farm out different ones to different pool members 18:22 < amiller> you'd have to solve a proof-of-work puzzles just to do that! 18:22 -!- fanquake [~anonymous@unaffiliated/fanquake] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:22 -!- fanquake_ is now known as fanquake 18:34 -!- bsm117532 [~bsm117532@static-108-21-236-13.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:35 -!- zooko` is now known as zooko 18:38 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-101.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:38 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-101.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:42 < amiller> ugh well, that's the key observation, it might be safe to commit to some informaiton you're oging to later reveal even though the rest is in zk, because at least that thwarts pools easily making different values for every person 18:42 < amiller> i'm having a hard time thinking through how to use that to best effect 18:44 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:45 < amiller> the difference between the total hash rate (350M gigahertz) vs a $50 mining device (10Ghz) is still 35 million. It would be impossible to make p2pool parameters such that someone with the 10ghz right wins a 'share' every day... that would be 35M shares and therefore as many txoutputs 18:58 < amiller> p2pool has like 2M GH/s so that's still 300k of the 10GH/s chips.... yet only like 3k p2pool shares are found in a day so still pretty far off, let alone if everyone used p2pool 19:02 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@86.125.49.61] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:11 * zooko has read with interest and with partial comprehension. 19:11 -!- maaku [~quassel@50-0-37-37.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:12 -!- maaku [~quassel@50-0-37-37.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:12 -!- maaku is now known as Guest39123 19:19 < amiller> i duno now i'm having second thoughts about whether this is feasible at even a high level 19:19 < amiller> the harm in pooling comes from letting someone else decide what you work on 19:19 < amiller> it still costs nothing to do that, even if you are solo mining 19:21 < amiller> furthermore if you are committing to prevhash, which i think you must be doing, then a coercer could still bribe you to do work reverting some history 19:22 -!- bsm117532 [~bsm117532@static-108-21-236-13.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 19:23 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:27 < amiller> in general, the reason to follow 'soft fork' rules is that majority of miners won't build on your block if you don't 19:27 < amiller> that rule by majority is assumed 'ok' 19:28 < amiller> some subbehavior, like a black list enforced by a few pool operators, is a problem, although if its effective its because its still a majority behavior 19:31 -!- droark [~droark@209-6-53-207.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: ZZZzzz…] 19:31 -!- antgreen [~user@CPE687f74122463-CM84948c2e0610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:46 < amiller> so i guess what i want is to make it encouraged to defect from any *small* coalition but still to do what the majority wants 19:49 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-101.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:50 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-101.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:52 -!- jtimon [~quassel@wilkins2.static.monkeybrains.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:55 -!- coiner [~linker@113.190.61.130] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:02 -!- bosma_ [~bosma@S01067cb21bda6531.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:03 -!- bosma [~bosma@S01067cb21bda6531.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 20:03 -!- bosma_ is now known as bosma 20:10 -!- tcrypt [~tylersmit@173.247.206.110] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:13 -!- bosma [~bosma@S01067cb21bda6531.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:18 -!- coinheavy [~coinheavy@108-233-255-91.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:21 -!- adam3us [~Adium@wilkins2.static.monkeybrains.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:29 -!- bosma [~bosma@S01067cb21bda6531.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:32 -!- [7] [~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven] has quit [Disconnected by services] 20:32 -!- TheSeven [~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:35 -!- deego [~user@unaffiliated/deego] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:48 -!- PaulCapestany [~PaulCapes@204.28.124.82] has quit [] 20:49 -!- PaulCapestany [~PaulCapes@204.28.124.82] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:06 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:06 -!- coinheavy [~coinheavy@108-233-255-91.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:07 -!- coinheavy [~coinheavy@2602:306:ce9f:f5b0:51fd:c7e9:eacb:a7e8] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:12 -!- coinheavy [~coinheavy@2602:306:ce9f:f5b0:51fd:c7e9:eacb:a7e8] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:25 -!- PaulCapestany [~PaulCapes@204.28.124.82] has quit [] 21:29 -!- PaulCapestany [~PaulCapes@204.28.124.82] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:31 -!- c0rw1n [~c0rw1n@91.176.85.209] has quit [] 21:33 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:304:cff8:1580:780f:788e:ef71:ed73] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:39 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:40 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:41 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:304:cff8:1580:780f:788e:ef71:ed73] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:05 -!- koeppelm_ [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-101.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:05 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-101.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:15 -!- adam3us [~Adium@wilkins2.static.monkeybrains.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:15 -!- adam3us [~Adium@88-105-6-39.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:16 -!- PaulCapestany [~PaulCapes@204.28.124.82] has quit [] 22:18 -!- PaulCapestany [~PaulCapes@204.28.124.82] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:19 -!- moa [~kiwigb@opentransactions/dev/moa] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:19 -!- adam3us [~Adium@88-105-6-39.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:20 -!- adam3us [~Adium@wilkins2.static.monkeybrains.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:21 -!- Quanttek [~quassel@ip1f1171b4.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:27 -!- Quanttek [~quassel@ip1f1171b4.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:35 -!- flower [~user@202.44.238.15] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 22:38 -!- flower [~user@202.44.238.15] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:40 -!- flower [~user@202.44.238.15] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 22:41 -!- flower [~user@202.44.238.15] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:44 -!- Mably [~Mably@unaffiliated/mably] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:49 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:304:cff8:1580:780f:788e:ef71:ed73] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:55 -!- tcrypt [~tylersmit@c-67-169-17-114.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:01 -!- roconnor [~roconnor@e120-pool-d89a76d0.brdbnd.voicenetwork.ca] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:06 -!- hktud0 [wq@unaffiliated/fluffybunny] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:07 -!- hktud0 [wq@unaffiliated/fluffybunny] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:17 -!- koeppelm_ [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-101.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:17 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-101.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:22 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dyn-160-39-29-101.dyn.columbia.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:22 -!- ortutay [~marcell@c-98-248-47-197.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:36 -!- Emcy [~MC@152.27.187.81.in-addr.arpa] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:36 -!- Emcy [~MC@152.27.187.81.in-addr.arpa] has quit [Changing host] 23:36 -!- Emcy [~MC@unaffiliated/mc1984] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:38 -!- Emcy_ [~MC@unaffiliated/mc1984] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:39 -!- coiner [~linker@113.190.61.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:43 -!- licnep [uid4387@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-iwuyxbtmefmgdrzz] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 23:44 -!- coiner [~linker@113.190.61.130] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:51 -!- ortutay [~marcell@c-98-248-47-197.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ortutay] 23:58 -!- ortutay [~marcell@c-98-248-47-197.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards --- Log closed Fri Feb 20 00:00:59 2015