--- Log opened Thu Mar 19 00:00:26 2015 00:00 -!- coiner [~linker@113.161.87.238] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:06 -!- hktud0 [ncidsk@unaffiliated/fluffybunny] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:07 -!- rainsborough [~rainsboro@c-67-191-209-210.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:07 -!- orik [~orik@50-46-132-219.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:08 -!- Mably [~Mably@unaffiliated/mably] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:08 -!- sl01 [~sl01@li431-44.members.linode.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:17 -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:21 -!- nubbins` [~leel@unaffiliated/nubbins] has quit [Quit: Quit] 00:23 < bramc> There are two ways of doing it, and I'm not sure which is better. An individual contributor can say 'this output needs to be part of the transaction' or it can say 'this other input needs to be part of the transaction' thus deferring its judgement to that other thing. 00:24 < bramc> or both 00:25 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:28 < bramc> I think the currently supported thing is to specify the output, and it can't specify a partial of the output, the only option is to require the output be just the one thing 00:32 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:33 < fluffypony> bramc: I don't agree with your eBay analogy 00:33 < fluffypony> s/analogy/conclusion 00:33 < fluffypony> I think the OTC WoT *does* work, but there are two problems with it: 00:33 < bramc> fluffypony, Not sure what you mean, a bunch of what I said was cracking jokes 00:34 < fluffypony> oh about the highly centralised authority :) 00:34 < bramc> also, not sure what 'otc' and 'wot' are acronyms for 00:34 < fluffypony> OTC = Over The Counter (ie. #bitcoin-otc) 00:34 < fluffypony> WoT = Web of Trust 00:34 < fluffypony> here, for instance: http://bitcoin-otc.com/viewratingdetail.php?nick=fluffypony 00:34 < bramc> I'm not sure what the deal is with #bitcoin-otc, there was discussion earlier which seemed to imply that it's a failed thing where somebody made off with the goods 00:35 < fluffypony> no, the failed thing was Evolution, a darknet market 00:35 < fluffypony> the discussion is more around reputation systems in general 00:35 < fluffypony> you're right in saying that eBay's system works 00:36 < fluffypony> but (imho) wrong in concluding that you need a centralised authority 00:36 < fluffypony> the centralised authority in that model takes action on behalf of the users 00:36 < fluffypony> but that's because users aren't empowered to take much action themselves 00:36 < fluffypony> what I have noticed is that any seller with a rating <99% has a sales drop-off 00:36 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dslb-178-005-159-243.178.005.pools.vodafone-ip.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:37 < fluffypony> people view it as "possibly untrustworthy" 00:37 < bramc> I didn't exactly say that you need centralized authority, just that all the examples of it working seem to involve centralized authority 00:37 < fluffypony> which goes back to gmaxwell's point about reputation hits being amplified 00:37 < fluffypony> so what I was going to say about the OTC WoT is that it's great *in principle* 00:37 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dslb-178-005-159-243.178.005.pools.vodafone-ip.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:37 < fluffypony> buuuut the two problems I've identified are: 00:38 < bramc> The problem with a decentralized thing is that it's hard to iterate on when there are problems, which tends to be a cat and mouse game whenever there's a reason for having a reputation system in the first place 00:38 < fluffypony> 1. everyone takes "total ratings" as some measure of trustworthiness, forgetting about *who* rated the person and *when* they were rated 00:38 < bramc> Yes, it's a lot easier to flood positive reviews than negative 00:38 < fluffypony> 2. ratings are generally expressed in terms of "X gave Y a rating of N" instead of an expression of a "path" of trust 00:39 < fluffypony> which I suppose is a problem systemic to the fact that ratings are given as X gave Y a rating of N 00:39 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:39 < fluffypony> ;;gettrust gmaxwell 00:39 < gribble> WARNING: Currently not authenticated. Trust relationship from user fluffypony to user gmaxwell: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 2 via 7 connections. Graph: http://b-otc.com/stg?source=fluffypony&dest=gmaxwell | WoT data: http://b-otc.com/vrd?nick=gmaxwell | Rated since: Mon Jul 25 13:49:45 2011 00:40 < fluffypony> people used to use ;;getratings all the time 00:40 < fluffypony> until it was removed 00:40 < bramc> That was experimented with on advogato, predating friendster 00:40 < fluffypony> bramc: so sort of like Facebook's social graph stuff? 00:40 < bramc> In the end you want a general rating based on the system as a whole, which tends to be fairly consistent 00:41 < bramc> Not sure what you mean about facebook's social graph stuff 00:41 < fluffypony> Facebook has this social graph thing in the back 00:41 < bramc> These things were literally worked on in 2002 00:41 < fluffypony> where they can tell that Alice is friends with Bob who is friends with Sue 00:41 < bramc> And you can see what became of them - everything is on facebook 00:41 < fluffypony> and they can build up a graph of friendships and relationships 00:42 < fluffypony> so they know who is connected to whom...because everyone is telling them 00:42 -!- rainsborough [~rainsboro@c-67-191-209-210.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:42 < bramc> the usability of a simple 'friend' relationship beats everything, and a centralized system can be tweaked and despammed in a resaonable way 00:42 < fluffypony> yeah 00:42 < fluffypony> the great thing about trust "paths" is that it virtually eliminates most Sybil attacks 00:42 < fluffypony> because sock-puppet accounts are just circle-jerk rating each other 00:43 < bramc> If you assume that sock-puppets are less than half of the total accounts you don't really need to find paths 00:43 < bramc> or rather, you can look at the median rating of someone across everybody else and that gives you a pretty good idea of what's going on. 00:44 < fluffypony> I still like the idea of paths being a natural extension of the way we interact IRL 00:45 < fluffypony> like I introduce you to Bob at a party, and because you and I are friends there's already an implied trust between you and Bob 00:45 < bramc> If you use facebook you quickly realize that there's essentially no utility to a foafoaf relationship 00:45 -!- pgokeeffe [~pgokeeffe@101.165.93.194] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:45 < fluffypony> if later on I go up to you and say that Bob is a douchebag, then your opinion of Bob changes because you don't really know him, so you're basing your view of him off what I say 00:45 < bramc> but on facebook you can quickly see a complete list of all the friends in common you have with someone, which tells you a surprising amount about them and makes it easy to ask for references 00:46 < fluffypony> yep, Facebook has got it down to a pay wrt to the way they display this stuff 00:46 < bramc> Well, I can tell you that peter is an asshole, but you knew that already 00:46 < fluffypony> I'm convinced that the general failure of the OTC WoT is down to the way the tooling expresses things 00:47 < fluffypony> the failure of the PGP WoT, on the other hand, is because people were signing PGP keys at parties for no real reason and no real purpose other than to say "yeah! I signed someone's key!" 00:47 < fluffypony> RIP PGP WoT 00:48 < bramc> the pgp web of trust didn't solve a problem anybody actually had, in a way which was usable to anybody 00:48 < bramc> I hated pgp from the beginning 00:49 < fluffypony> it's incredibly chunky 00:53 < bramc> We're happily conversing in this channel with effectively no authentication. 00:54 < bramc> If an FBI agent came to me tomorrow and asked for information about Mr. Pony I would hardly be able to tell them anything about your identity, but we still have some useful communication 00:54 < go1111111> random idea: is it possible to create a worthwhile reputation system where people try to predict the trustworthyness of other people, and benefit/lose accordingly as in a prediction market? 00:54 < bramc> I wish people would use slightly more identifying handles in here so I could keep everybody straight 00:54 < bramc> go1111111, no it isn't 00:55 < bramc> it's too many layers of abstraction removed from the eventual effect 00:55 * fluffypony wonders how that conversation would go down 00:55 < fluffypony> "so then Mr. Pony spoke to you on IRC, correct?" 00:55 -!- phiche [~Adium@c-d7f6e555.017-265-73746f1.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:56 < bramc> And making it distributed would make it collapse under its own weight 00:56 < go1111111> bramc: and that is bad because it's just too complex? how confident are you that such a system wouldn't work? 00:57 < bramc> go1111111, Nobody's gotten even much simpler systems to 'work' in the sense of being useful for anything 00:58 < bramc> The whole point of bitcoin is that it *doesn't* require a reputation system 00:59 < bramc> And simultaneous transfer doesn't either 00:59 < fluffypony> Bitcoin doesn't, but dealing with people on the Internet really does 01:00 < fluffypony> especially as their transparency or anonymity should be their prerogative 01:01 < go1111111> simultaneous transfer of cryptocurrenies doesn't, but if I hire you to draw me a picture of a giraffe for 1 BTC, some reputation system would be useful 01:03 < bramc> Yes reputation systems are useful, but my advice for anyone wanting to have a reputation system is to set it up centralized and be prepared to change the rules on the fly as people try to game it any way they can 01:04 -!- Mably [56401ec3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.86.64.30.195] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:04 -!- andy-logbot [~bitcoin--@wpsoftware.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:05 -!- andy-logbot [~bitcoin--@wpsoftware.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:05 * andy-logbot is logging 01:06 -!- SDCDev [~quassel@unaffiliated/sdcdev] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:09 < bramc> Related to that, the dread pirate roberts choosing that name seems to indicate that he actually thought people would buy his bizarre defense that he'd long since sold off the dread pirate roberts identity to someone else. 01:09 < bramc> reputation can be non-fungible in both the good and the bad directions 01:10 < fluffypony> yeah you can't really prevent reputation/identity theft or selling 01:11 < fluffypony> (in a decentralised system I mean) 01:13 < sl01> bramc: what about a marketplace for reputation ledgers? 01:17 < bramc> sl01, I can't tell if you're joking 01:18 < sl01> bramc: i mean like... have people subscribe (paid?) to services which track reputation, and let reputation services compete, so the one who tracks reputations as closely to reality as possible profits most? 01:18 < bramc> Still can't tell if you're joking 01:18 < sl01> not joking :( 01:19 < justanotheruser> I think it's a reasonable idea, don't see a reason for a ledger though 01:20 < sl01> sorry by ledger i just meant database basically 01:20 < sl01> and maybe you have to pay per query 01:20 < justanotheruser> it's not quite a decentralized solution though 01:21 < sl01> there could be some standard protocol so users could use different rep. services interchangeably wherever they are needed 01:21 -!- TonyClifton [~TonyClift@cpc69058-oxfd26-2-0-cust984.4-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:22 < bramc> Needs a paid vendor of analytics for whether peoples's reputation monitoring accurately reflects later behaviors 01:23 < wumpus> reputation management for reputation management vendors? 01:23 < wumpus> s/management/monitoring/ 01:24 < bramc> I give up. Parody is dead. 01:24 -!- pgokeeffe [~pgokeeffe@101.165.93.194] has quit [Quit: pgokeeffe] 01:24 < fluffypony> Google Reputation, Powered by Google Blockchain (tm) 01:25 -!- adam3us1 [~Adium@host-92-18-101-16.as13285.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:25 < wumpus> turtles all the way down 01:34 -!- SDCDev [~quassel@unaffiliated/sdcdev] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:35 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dslb-178-005-159-243.178.005.pools.vodafone-ip.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:35 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dslb-178-005-159-243.178.005.pools.vodafone-ip.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:35 -!- terpo [~terpo@81-64-36-59.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:36 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dslb-178-005-159-243.178.005.pools.vodafone-ip.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:36 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@dslb-178-005-159-243.178.005.pools.vodafone-ip.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:38 -!- Rynomster [~quassel@unaffiliated/rynomster] has joined 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timeout: 265 seconds] 05:56 -!- Guest32678 is now known as amiller 05:56 -!- amiller [~socrates1@li175-104.members.linode.com] has quit [Changing host] 05:56 -!- amiller [~socrates1@unaffiliated/socrates1024] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:58 -!- zooko [~user@c-75-70-204-109.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:05 -!- pgokeeffe [~pgokeeffe@101.165.93.194] has quit [Quit: pgokeeffe] 06:06 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@76-255-129-88.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:09 -!- x98gvyn [~vfbtgn@86.126.0.168] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:14 -!- null [~null@chiba.sprawl.io] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:14 -!- hearn [~mike@84-75-198-85.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 06:16 -!- fanquake_ [~anonymous@unaffiliated/fanquake] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:18 -!- fanquake [~anonymous@unaffiliated/fanquake] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:18 -!- fanquake_ is now known as fanquake 06:21 < kanzure> "The dude invented BitTorrent." "No, he extended the ideas of MojoNation and called it BitTorrent." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MojoNation 06:22 < kanzure> "Mojo was a digital cash currency that aimed to provide attack resistance and load balancing in a fully distributed and incentive-compatible way (see Agoric computing). Every pair of MojoNation nodes maintained a relative credit balance, with every EGTP request transferring some Mojo credit from the sender to the receiver. In early versions of MojoNation, users were required to set prices for any services their node provided. Most ... 06:22 < kanzure> ... users had no idea how to choose prices, so the Mojo layer was rewritten to use a second-price rolling auction." cool 06:24 < kanzure> how well did that work and what network size was reached? 06:29 -!- prodatalab [~prodatala@2602:306:247c:5e59:d1d7:5af7:6a00:69ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:36 -!- prodatalab [~prodatala@2602:304:ab2c:9739:8490:cdbd:5031:aae1] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:39 < amiller> paging zooko... 06:40 < zooko> http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CB8QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cs.rice.edu%2FConferences%2FIPTPS02%2F188.pdf&ei=p9EKVaL7I5LgoATw8oGAAw&usg=AFQjCNEoZlWFZGZPGZvAAgWgwJbdozUKxw 06:40 < zooko> http://www.cs.kent.edu/~javed/class-FP2P10S/papers-2006/mojonation.pdf 06:40 < zooko> I wrote that under a pseudonym. 06:41 < zooko> No, he unextended the ideas of Mojo Nation. :_) 06:42 < kanzure> that second link is an embarrassingly precise answer, i should have looked before asking :) 06:42 < zooko> Heh heh heh. 06:42 < zooko> I'm really glad for things that I published. 06:42 < zooko> Because I've forgotten everything else from that era except the things I can refresh my memory by reading. :-) 06:43 < zooko> And I've lost everything that I wrote down but didn't publish. 06:51 -!- droark [~droark@209-6-53-207.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:54 -!- StephenM347 [~stephenm3@cpe-76-179-63-243.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:58 -!- bitbumper [~bitbumper@sl-gw21-kc-5-0-4-si202.sprintlink.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:59 -!- hearn [~mike@77-59-53-134.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:01 -!- OneNomos [~OneNomos@pool-71-163-237-248.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:02 -!- stonecoldpat [~Paddy@janus-nat-128-240-225-56.ncl.ac.uk] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:03 -!- hearn [~mike@77-59-53-134.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Client Quit] 07:03 -!- c0rw1n 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ZZZzzz…] 08:42 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:42 -!- ryanxcharles [~ryan@64.124.157.148] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:44 -!- getplank [~getplank@65.88.88.176] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:46 -!- phiche [~Adium@c-d7f6e555.017-265-73746f1.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:51 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@195.69.59.71] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:52 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@195.69.59.71] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:52 -!- arubi [~ese168@unaffiliated/arubi] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:54 -!- arubi [~ese168@unaffiliated/arubi] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:57 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@195.69.59.71] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:57 -!- ortutay [~marcell@216.239.45.69] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:59 -!- elevation [~ceptde@73.4.229.56] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:59 -!- elevation is now known as Guest98443 09:06 -!- rnvk [~nvk@unaffiliated/rnvk] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:08 -!- benjyz1 [~benjyz1@p5B282975.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:15 -!- melvster [~melvster@ip-86-49-18-198.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 09:15 -!- melvster [~melvster@ip-86-49-18-198.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:16 -!- melvster1 [~melvster@ip-86-49-18-198.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:17 -!- user7779078 [user777907@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-esggkfjlgpcckfiv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:18 -!- fanquake [~anonymous@unaffiliated/fanquake] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:20 < bramc> Oh look at that, channel logs made reddit 09:20 < fluffypony> you're famous! 09:21 -!- bitbumper [~bitbumper@sl-gw21-kc-5-0-4-si202.sprintlink.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:21 < andytoshi> influx of "what is this channel? why is it so quiet?" in 3 ... 2 ... 09:22 < binaryatrocity> What is this channel? Why is it so quiet? 09:25 < kanzure> bramc: pretty amazing how people are incapable of reading. your statement didn't even say "i am not going to give petertodd the benefit of the doubt" (rather, just on stupid-sounding ideas). 09:28 < gavinandresen> quiet… too quiet… people must be busy getting actual work done. 09:32 -!- Akiron [266ae238@gateway/web/freenode/ip.38.106.226.56] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:32 -!- instagibbs [32f65962@gateway/web/freenode/ip.50.246.89.98] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:33 < Anduck> hopefully we wont run out of btc devs 09:33 < instagibbs> you can tell that the accounts posting these irc "scoops" are simply rabble-rousers. 09:34 < instagibbs> they tire of banging on Luke-Jr and move on to new folks :P 09:34 -!- SuSEno [~suseno@36.80.122.122] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:35 < instagibbs> I think more people were shocked that bramc was hanging around -wizards 09:38 -!- user7779_ [~user77790@ool-4a5987f1.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:38 -!- hearn [~mike@205.72.194.178.dynamic.wline.res.cust.swisscom.ch] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 09:41 -!- lclc [~lucas@unaffiliated/lclc] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:42 -!- user7779078 [user777907@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-esggkfjlgpcckfiv] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:42 < fluffypony> Reddit thrives on drama, instagibbs 09:44 < Luke-Jr> gavin +1 quiet is often good ☺ 09:48 < nubbins`> dull, tho ;D 09:50 < zooko> gavinandresen: haha! 09:50 < Luke-Jr> nubbins`: only dull for the ones not writing code. 09:51 < nubbins`> only dull for the ones staring at the screen waiting for smth to happen 8) 09:51 -!- espes__ [~espes@205.185.120.132] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:51 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@ppp005054006011.access.hol.gr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:54 -!- koshii [~0@156.39.191.244] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:55 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@ppp005054006011.access.hol.gr] has quit [Client Quit] 09:56 -!- instagibbs [32f65962@gateway/web/freenode/ip.50.246.89.98] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 09:56 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@ppp005054006011.access.hol.gr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:57 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@ppp005054006011.access.hol.gr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:57 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@ppp005054006011.access.hol.gr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:05 -!- Akiron [266ae238@gateway/web/freenode/ip.38.106.226.56] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 10:05 -!- tillikum [1772c145@gateway/web/freenode/ip.23.114.193.69] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:05 < tillikum> howdy 10:06 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r167-57-25-30.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:07 < tillikum> anyone is austin this week for sxsw and keeping up with the bitcoin talks? 10:08 < kanzure> i am in austin but not at sxsw. i am offering food and access to andytoshi. 10:08 -!- Mably [56401ec3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.86.64.30.195] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 10:08 < tillikum> whats andytoshi? 10:08 < kanzure> nevermind 10:08 < Anduck> a person.. 10:09 < fluffypony> it's like a drug 10:09 < fluffypony> but with more mathematics 10:09 < Taek> you don't get access to it... it gets access to you! 10:10 < Taek> oh wait 10:10 < tillikum> haha thanks for the explanation... i think 10:15 -!- napedia [~napedia@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/napedia] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:15 < Luke-Jr> lol 10:18 < tillikum> Hey kanzure - where are you offering the food and access? 10:19 -!- nubbins` [~leel@unaffiliated/nubbins] has quit [Quit: Quit] 10:19 -!- benjyz1 [~benjyz1@p5B282975.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:20 -!- SuSEno [~suseno@36.80.122.122] has left #bitcoin-wizards [] 10:21 -!- bitbumper [~bitbumper@sl-gw21-kc-5-0-4-si202.sprintlink.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:21 -!- xenog [~xenog@c-69-181-137-57.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:25 < kanzure> see pm 10:26 -!- xenog [~xenog@c-69-181-137-57.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:28 < andytoshi> tillikum: hi, i'm in austin, but not keeping up with bitcoin talks; i'll also pm you 10:32 < bramc> andytoshi, Would like to talk to you about PoS stuff, I'm not in austin though 10:33 < andytoshi> bramc: i would too, not sure when i'll have some spare brain cycles tho 10:33 < andytoshi> bramc: is "proof of time" like a spow? 10:33 < bramc> andytoshi, Yeah different term for the same thing 10:35 < andytoshi> bramc: ok, cool. so one thing i was thinking is that you can do a weak sort of grinding by doing many PoT's in parallel 10:35 < bramc> andytoshi, That's why it's critical that the PoTs be canonical 10:36 < andytoshi> well, if they depend on the transaction set then you can grind them by fiddling with the transactions ... if not i don't see that they can commit to the transactions 10:36 -!- CoinMuncher1 [~jannes@ip54544d54.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:37 < bramc> That's why you have parallel PoTs for the challenges and the transaction set, with the transaction set shadowing the challenges, which are much more canonical 10:37 -!- CoinMuncher [~jannes@178.132.211.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:38 < bramc> Not the most elegant solution, but it's all I've been able to come up with and it does seem to work 10:38 < andytoshi> do you have a writeup for this? i know you've been through it in the -wizards logs many times, but there is a ton of real-time iteration there 10:39 < bramc> No writeup yet, still iterating 10:39 < andytoshi> kk 10:39 -!- CoinMuncher [~jannes@178.132.211.90] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:39 < andytoshi> like, what do you mean "shadowing" do the challenges depend on the tx set or not? it seems to me you either have a "grinding channel" through the transactions or you can't commit to them 10:39 -!- getplank [~getplank@65.88.88.176] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 10:41 -!- hktud0 [wq@unaffiliated/fluffybunny] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:41 -!- CoinMuncher1 [~jannes@ip54544d54.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:42 < bramc> There's a 'main trunk' which consists of alternating PoS and PoT and doesn't make any reference to transactions. It's what determines the challenges to the PoS 10:43 < bramc> There's a shadowing leaf branch which consists of alternating txroots and PoTs. The txroots are signed by the keys found in the PoS in the corresponding position of the main trunk 10:43 < bramc> a PoS in this case is just a public key whose hash is very close to the hash of the last PoT 10:43 < bramc> txroots also reference the leaf PoT of course 10:45 < bramc> All this complexity is necessitated by grinding attacks. Avoiding those is hard! 10:47 < andytoshi> how is stake distribution determined? 10:47 < andytoshi> oh i see 10:47 < bramc> andytoshi, There is no stake, it's just mining 10:47 -!- afk11 [~thomas@89.100.72.184] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 10:49 -!- lclc [~lucas@unaffiliated/lclc] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:50 < andytoshi> so you're sorta "spacing out" a hashcash-like PoW by hashcashing keypairs which are then used to sign (a) a PoT, whose purpose is to push the characteristic time of the network longer than the synchronization time (for convergence) and (b) transaction sets? 10:50 -!- lclc [~lucas@unaffiliated/lclc] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:51 -!- stonecoldpat [~Paddy@janus-nat-128-240-225-56.ncl.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:52 < bramc> I'm not familiar enough with hashcash to know exactly what that means, but it's spacing out PoS to avoid grinding on them, with a PoS being a public key which is used to sign a txroot and the previous leaf PoT. The spacing is done by doing a parallel PoT on both just the PoS and separately on the txroot. The PoT in the main trunk is used for the challenge in the next generation 10:52 -!- Mably [~Mably@unaffiliated/mably] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:52 < bramc> The PoTs are fairly dumb. They're just repeated hashing with checkpoints. 10:55 < andytoshi> ok, i think i understand. i'll have to think about this a bit more 10:55 < andytoshi> tho i'm afraid this is perfectly compatible with what's in my paper :) 10:55 < andytoshi> because the stake keys have a cost which can be measured outside the system 10:56 < bramc> They definitely have a cost, it just happens to be depreciation on storage which was already sitting around anyway 10:56 -!- nubbins` [~leel@unaffiliated/nubbins] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:56 < bramc> I don't think of it as being stake, it's just mining with a different resource 10:57 < andytoshi> right. i think "stake" is a misleading term because people are used to being some sort of cryptographically-defined bond which is super cheap to compute 10:58 < bramc> By PoS here I mean proof of storage, not proof of stake 10:58 < andytoshi> and the problem with using that for consensus is that you can't cryptographically bond anything until you've got some sort of "cryptographic value store" which requires a pre-existing consensus system (this is my unproven claim) 10:58 -!- orik [~orik@50-46-132-219.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 10:58 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:59 -!- orik [~orik@50-46-132-219.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:59 -!- phiche [~Adium@185.32.8.49] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:59 -!- maraoz [~maraoz@host15.190-136-226.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:59 < andytoshi> oh ok, i thought PoS meant proof-of-stake. i think you will need to get a new acronym, that one's pretty settled :) 10:59 < bramc> hmm, probably 10:59 < tromp> PoD? proof of diskspace ? 10:59 -!- c0rw1n is now known as c0rw|afk 10:59 -!- maraoz_ [~maraoz@181.95.44.170] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:00 < fluffypony> Proof of Byte 11:00 < andytoshi> and it also means point-of-sale which causes confusion every so often ... and piece-of-shit, but that's less confusing because there is no non-shitty implementation of either "proof of stake" or "point of sale" 11:00 < Adlai> proof of old petabytes 11:00 < Taek> in the altcoin space, there's an existing concept of 'Proof of Capacity' 11:01 < nubbins`> capacity is the maximum amount something can hold 11:01 < bramc> I'm not sure if proof of stake systems can be made to work. My ideas can probably be used to fix some of their issues but not others. They are at the highest layer of abstraction much more complicated than what I'm doing, which is basically a technical fix, and I don't find trying to fix them a terribly interesting problem. 11:02 < bramc> Proof of Disk seems to be the least misleading 11:02 < nubbins`> ^ 11:03 < tromp> capacity is somewhat less specific. eg. there is also computing capacity 11:03 -!- CoinMuncher [~jannes@178.132.211.90] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:04 -!- phiche [~Adium@185.32.8.49] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:04 < tromp> the technically most correct term might be proof of persistent storage, or proof of non-volatile storage 11:04 < Taek> PoPS 11:05 < tromp> not as succint as proof of diskspace though:( 11:05 < fluffypony> PoNS 11:05 < bramc> PoD gets the message across much more clearly 11:05 < fluffypony> plus you have a band named after it 11:05 -!- zooko` [~user@174-16-54-162.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:06 < tromp> plus you can implement PoD on an iPoD :( 11:07 -!- hashtagg_ [~hashtag@87.97.95.120.pool.invitel.hu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:07 -!- zooko [~user@c-75-70-204-109.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:08 -!- p15x [~p15x@182.50.108.41] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:08 < fluffypony> lol tromp 11:08 -!- zooko`` [~user@c-75-70-204-109.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:10 -!- getplank [~getplank@65.88.88.176] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:10 -!- zooko` [~user@174-16-54-162.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:10 -!- hashtag_ [~hashtag@87.97.95.120.pool.invitel.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:12 -!- hashtag_ [~hashtag@87.97.95.120.pool.invitel.hu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:13 -!- HM [~HM@81.4.101.225] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:14 -!- HM [~HM@81.4.101.225] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:14 -!- hashtagg_ [~hashtag@87.97.95.120.pool.invitel.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:16 -!- DougieBot5000_ [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:17 -!- pollux-bts [uid52270@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qkwqhwmnggpfjzyg] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:17 < Anduck> what if k-value were calculated from private key (each priv key has one corresponding k-value) so every transaction re-using address would reveal the private key 11:17 -!- TonyClifton [~TonyClift@gateway-nat.fmrib.ox.ac.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:17 < Anduck> wouldn't this stop double spending? miners could just move the funds from doublespend-tryers to their own pockets 11:19 < Adlai> what if nobody used the new k-value calculation, and kept reusing old code and addresses? 11:19 -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:21 -!- hashtag_ [~hashtag@87.97.95.120.pool.invitel.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:23 < Anduck> maybe it could be determined from pubkey that what the k hashed is 11:24 -!- hashtag_ [~hashtag@87.97.95.120.pool.invitel.hu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:24 < Anduck> privkey-pubkey-k all linked together like privkey and pubkey are currently 11:26 -!- MoALTz [~no@78.11.179.104] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:29 -!- hashtagg_ [~hashtag@87.97.95.120.pool.invitel.hu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:31 -!- zooko`` is now known as zooko 11:31 -!- hashtag_ [~hashtag@87.97.95.120.pool.invitel.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:34 < bramc> Anduck, That's probably a good idea. It doesn't completely fix everything because once a transaction is buried it can't be redone, but it should cut down on chicanery 11:35 < bramc> I need to do a blog post about how to get that effect for Lamport signatures. The more interesting question is whether it can be done for schnorr. 11:36 < Anduck> someone mining a block could double-spend though - but that can be done in current system too 11:37 < Taek> Would that enforce that you can't reuse addresses? 11:37 < Anduck> yes 11:37 -!- rustyn [~rustyn@unaffiliated/rustyn] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:37 < Taek> that's a very sharp edge 11:37 < andytoshi> Anduck: there is no publically verifiable way to define k from the key such that a single sig doesn't reveal the secret key, at least that i know of, and at least that doesn't involve pairing 11:37 < Anduck> it's how bitcoin should work but reusing-possibility is a bonus 11:38 < andytoshi> Anduck: afaik you can only enforce linear relationships between k and the secret key, and if there is a known linear relationship between them you can solve for the key with one sig 11:39 < Anduck> isn't the k a random value normally? 11:39 < Apocalyptic> depends 11:40 < Anduck> depends? 11:40 < andytoshi> oh, actually i'm wrong, i see how to do it where k = x^2 with a NIZK, and this still hides the key, but it makes the sigs twice as big 11:40 < Apocalyptic> some implementations derive k deterministically afaik 11:40 < Anduck> Apocalyptic: ahh 11:41 < Anduck> Apocalyptic: it's a good way to ensure k will not be reused when reusing addresses 11:43 < Anduck> well, if this works it would solve at least two things: nonminer doublespending and address reuse 11:43 -!- xenog [~xenog@c-69-181-137-57.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:47 -!- ortutay [~marcell@216.239.45.69] has quit [Quit: ortutay] 11:48 -!- xenog [~xenog@c-69-181-137-57.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:48 -!- phiche [~Adium@c-d7f6e555.017-265-73746f1.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:49 -!- phiche [~Adium@c-d7f6e555.017-265-73746f1.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Client Quit] 11:55 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has quit [Quit: Bye] 11:57 -!- droark [~droark@173-162-150-61-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:57 -!- xenog [~xenog@c-69-181-137-57.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:59 -!- orik [~orik@50-46-132-219.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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252 seconds] 14:37 -!- ortutay [~marcell@104.135.10.118] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:39 < andytoshi> lol, gross ... if you do a pure pos system, this reduces to a centrally-signed (by whomever first starts grinding to maintain signership indefinitely) consensus, but it's still a consensus 14:40 -!- ortutay [~marcell@104.135.10.118] has quit [Client Quit] 14:40 < andytoshi> well, you also have to do something to prevent the central signer from signing multiple histories, e.g. forcing ecdsa nonces, but this is easy 14:41 -!- Luke [~Luke@unaffiliated/luke] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:41 < andytoshi> if you assume you've actually prevented this, then pos is a well-defined DMMS which is using commitments to a scarce resource :P 14:42 < moa> andytoshi: what's the resource? 14:43 -!- PaulCapestany [~PaulCapes@204.28.124.82] has quit [Quit: .] 14:43 < andytoshi> moa: uhh it's not public yet ;) 14:43 < phantomcircuit> andytoshi, i suspect you'd find that preventing grinding is harder than it sounds 14:43 < moa> private scarcity 14:43 < andytoshi> moa: oh, the scarce resource is bonded pos-coin 14:44 < andytoshi> phantomcircuit: i'm not preventing grinding, i'm just observing that it leads to a centralized consensus, not a failed consensus 14:44 < kanzure> i thought there was no debate as to whether centralized consensus was consensus? 14:44 < phantomcircuit> oh 14:44 -!- getplank [~getplank@65.88.88.176] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 14:44 < kanzure> i'm actually quite confused about what you are claiming 14:44 < phantomcircuit> andytoshi, for all practical purposes those are the same thing 14:44 < phantomcircuit> :P 14:45 < kanzure> what properties does a centralized consensus have that you thought that centralized ledger updating doesn't possess? 14:45 < andytoshi> kanzure: there isn't any confusion on what consensus is, but in the sidechains wp there's this "DMMS" definition and this claim "satoshi invented a DMMS which is how we get distributed consensus" 14:45 -!- PaulCapestany [~PaulCapes@204.28.124.82] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:45 < andytoshi> kanzure: but to actually get this you need a pretty heavy definition of DMMS (i think) which includes a bunch of crap from asic-faq.pdf 14:46 < andytoshi> with a "natural" definition of DMMS security you can describe things with heavy centralization pressure, and even apparently pos 14:46 -!- koshii [~0@156.39.191.244] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:47 -!- belcher [~belcher-s@unaffiliated/belcher] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:47 < andytoshi> well, this isn't quite true, i can define DMMS to be identical to amiller's scratch-off puzzles, but the name would be a bit misleading then 14:49 < moa> so it all hinges on the definition of DMMS? 14:49 < andytoshi> moa: yeah, i'm quietly working on a paper to give it a real definition 14:50 < moa> but that doesn't seem that surprising does it? 14:51 < andytoshi> moa: i'm a little surprised that i can't exclude pos outright with a really widely applicable definition 14:51 < moa> agreed 14:51 < andytoshi> but i stupidly didn't realize that even pure pos can lead to a stable consensus (in the sense that once someone hijacks it, nobody can "re-hijack it" to cause forks) 14:53 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:58 -!- grandmaster [~dansmith3@knows.the.cops.are.investigat.in] has left #bitcoin-wizards ["Leaving"] 15:01 -!- Starduster [~guest@unaffiliated/starduster] has quit [] 15:02 -!- ajweiss [~adam@static-100-38-11-146.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:02 -!- xenog [~xenog@c-69-181-137-57.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:03 -!- ajweiss [~adam@static-100-38-11-146.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:03 -!- jtimon [~quassel@189.Red-83-59-238.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:04 < maaku> andytoshi: it isn't a dynamic membership set if no one can later join 15:05 -!- ajweiss [~adam@static-100-38-11-146.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:05 -!- Starduster [~guest@unaffiliated/starduster] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:07 -!- TonyClifton [~TonyClift@cpc69058-oxfd26-2-0-cust984.4-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:07 -!- phiche [~Adium@c-d7f6e555.017-265-73746f1.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:08 -!- ahmed_ is now known as mrbodz 15:09 < andytoshi> maaku: oh, yeah, thx, that might force me into the scratch-off puzzle definition in a reasonably elegant way 15:09 -!- mrbodz is now known as mrbodi 15:09 < andytoshi> i have an idea that all parties need to have equal footing (any differences will be amplified into total centralization) and this requires you have a poisson process of some sort 15:09 -!- mrbodi is now known as ahmedb0di 15:09 -!- ahmedb0di is now known as ahmed_ 15:10 < andytoshi> which is a SOP 15:10 < Taek> It doesn't seem natural to me that a DMMS would reduce to a SOP 15:10 < Taek> or at least, it would be surprising result 15:12 -!- grandmaster [~dansmith3@knows.the.cops.are.investigat.in] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:12 < andytoshi> Taek: well, a DMMS is a signature, and it needs some sort of security property to differentiate it from any other function you might imagine ... so you think, what would a "forgery" of a DMMS be? roughly, producing one that claims to be produced with x amount of computing power without actually expending x amount of computing power 15:12 < andytoshi> for correctness you also want "claims to be produced with x amount of computer power" to actually mean that x amount of power was used on average 15:13 -!- bit2017 [~linker@42.115.172.74] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:13 < andytoshi> so if one party's computing power is worth more than another's, depending what "claim" means either the advantaged party breaks the security property or the disadvantaged one can't achieve the correctness property 15:14 < maaku> andytoshi: well certainly an important feature is that the cost-of-entry is the same for all participants 15:14 -!- coiner [~linker@42.115.149.186] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:14 < Taek> just trying to be general, but what if you have a DMMS where one party has double strength up to 5%? 15:15 < Taek> that results in a bit of centralization but it's not a huge advantage or security vulnerability 15:15 < andytoshi> so you need both parties to have equally-valued computing power, which i think means ~0 cost-of-entry and also means "X and Y working together" should be exactly as strong as "X and Y each working independently" meaning they aren't communicating 15:15 < rusty> andytoshi, Taek: reminds me of the idea of rewarding future miners during bootstrap by allowing them to mine future blocks at a discount. 15:15 < andytoshi> "not communicating" sounds like "memoryless" which forces you into a poisson process 15:16 < Taek> Perhaps this isn't what you are looking for, but could DMMS properties be achieved using some other barrier to entry than computing power? 15:16 < Taek> (or other close derivatives such as storage) 15:16 < andytoshi> Taek: "double strength up to 5%" means you can force the difficulty up to a point where you have positive EV but others don't (assuming equal electric costs) 15:16 -!- coiner [~linker@1.54.73.130] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:17 < andytoshi> Taek: yeah, sure, you just have a "cost function" which in bitcoin's case is actually measured in terms of random oracle accesses 15:17 < Taek> I guess that also fits the SOP definitioin 15:18 < andytoshi> yeah 15:18 < Taek> to be more nuanced: double strength up to 5%, 0 strenght between 5 and 10% 15:18 -!- bit2017 [~linker@42.115.172.74] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:19 < Taek> so beyond 10% you're equally powered 15:19 -!- user7779078 [user777907@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-sjchmyhqchmaqgsg] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:19 < andytoshi> :P that's impossible, just run your 5% miner and then pretend to be a non-advantaged party for the rest 15:19 -!- guest23423423 [~guest3232@2601:8:1a80:4f8:d101:6a58:36d4:f602] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:19 -!- PaulCapestany [~PaulCapes@204.28.124.82] has quit [Quit: .] 15:19 < Taek> ah foo 15:20 < benjyz1> "satoshi invented a DMMS which is how we get distributed consensus" 15:21 < benjyz1> compute power was only a proxy. that's something Bitcoiners like to forget 15:21 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:21 -!- PaulCapestany [~PaulCapes@204.28.124.82] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:22 -!- user7779078 [user777907@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-nydfnjwrugaqudgk] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:22 < bramc> andytoshi, One wants a little more than 'has eventual consensus' out of a PoS system. You want any party to be able to transfer their shares as long as there isn't a 51% conspiracy trying to stop them 15:24 < andytoshi> bramc: a little more than "has eventual distributed consensus" you mean? 15:24 < andytoshi> i guess so, it's not clear what a 51% conspiracy woud mean if your consensus system had priviledged parties 15:24 < bramc> andytoshi, Having a consensus dictator is a form of consensus :-) 15:26 -!- bitbumper [~bitbumper@sl-gw21-kc-5-0-4-si202.sprintlink.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:29 < moa> collateralising tax-slaves for sovereign debts is a form of consensus also 15:29 < Taek> I think I do agree that priviledged parties don't really fit the spirit of DMMS 15:29 < benjyz1> devs are priviledged parties already. 15:29 < benjyz1> they have some control over the system without any CPU power or stake 15:30 < moa> benjyz1: only as many nodes are prepared to run their code .... 15:31 < benjyz1> yes, but miners don't write code. and with PoS the relationship is much clearer 15:31 < bramc> What we really need is proof of mutton. Much better than proof of steak. 15:32 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:304:cff8:1580:c0fa:6751:7310:9fb5] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:32 < bramc> andytoshi, It may be that including PoT can improve the security of a PoS system 15:32 < Taek> how so? 15:33 < bramc> It isn't obvious what should be viewed as off limits for a PoS system. Presumably PoD and PoP (proof of power, which is what bitcoin uses) are off the table. 15:33 < benjyz1> one original idea in the original whitepaper: use IP addresses 15:33 < bramc> Taek, using PoT can make it so that an an attacker can't retroactively go back and redo things because they'd fall behind 15:33 < andytoshi> benjyz1: lurk moar pls 15:33 < justanotheruser> benjyz1: what 15:34 < bramc> IP addresses are not a scarce or fairly distributed resource 15:34 < bramc> Also impossible to retroactively authenticate 15:34 < andytoshi> bramc: i don't think you can fix pos with PoT, you can do lots of PoT's in parallel and this is a form of grinding ... if you have 1/Nth of the stake you can do N PoTs in parallel and have a good chance of getting the next block such that you are signer again 15:34 < benjyz1> andytoshi: what's your problem. 15:35 < Taek> andytoshi: what about PoS systems where signers are not chosen randomly but rather all participate in every round using something like byzantine paxos? 15:36 < benjyz1> yes. why are IP addresses allocated the way they are? 15:36 < bramc> andytoshi, Just a thought that they may help in some way, and aren't prohibited by the rules. I wouldn't put money on them fixing everything 15:36 < benjyz1> and could be there a different way 15:36 < andytoshi> Taek: wouldn't that require them all to communicate somehow? 15:36 < bramc> andytoshi, There are a lot of ways which PoT can be used. Grinding is of course a huge issue in most of them though. 15:36 < Taek> you'd need 2/3 of the parties to be in communication every block 15:36 < Taek> and network overhead is severe 15:37 < andytoshi> bramc: ya, i'll definitely keep it in mind 15:37 < andytoshi> Taek: i think your network would be bounded so severely that the network itself would effectively be a "single point of failure" 15:38 < benjyz1> throwing buzzwords around doesn't solve any problem 15:39 -!- benjyz1 [~benjyz1@p5B282975.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:39 < Taek> You'd probably be alright below 100 signers 15:39 < Taek> hmm that might even be generous 15:39 -!- benjyz1 [~benjyz1@p5B282975.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:39 -!- benjyz1 [~benjyz1@p5B282975.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has left #bitcoin-wizards [] 15:40 < justanotheruser> Taek: I think tendermint tries something like that, but because they have soooo many other design flaws, I don't think their unspecified implimentation of the ideas in "Consensus in the Presence of Partial Synchrony" will be any better. 15:40 -!- benjyz1 [~benjyz1@p5B282975.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:41 < andytoshi> benjyz1: you are on a research channel. please try to keep the signal-to-noise ratio high; many people here try to read every message. if you don't recognize a term of art please look it up 15:42 < justanotheruser> Even if 2/3 of the voters can come to consensus on what the contents of a block should be, I don't see how you can prevent stake grinding. I pointed out that an individual could try to influence a block so they were the voters for future blocks and they basically said "okay, we'll make it so the voters are predetermined at inception of the currency" 15:43 < benjyz1> andytoshi: I'm asking what your referring to. I don't understand what's wrong with this bitcoin cabaling 15:43 < Taek> justanotheruser: I (think) the setup would be (haven't thought extensively about it) that you pick the X highest stake owners (say 100) and then they participate in every round 15:44 < Taek> there's no computational grinding 15:44 < Taek> though once you are in the top 100, you can only be displaced by someone else gathering up more stake than you have 15:44 < Taek> there'd be incentive to block transactions that pool stake into once place 15:45 -!- benjyz1 [~benjyz1@p5B282975.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has left #bitcoin-wizards [] 15:48 -!- Emcy [~MC@cpc3-swan1-0-0-cust996.7-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:48 -!- Emcy [~MC@cpc3-swan1-0-0-cust996.7-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Changing host] 15:48 -!- Emcy [~MC@unaffiliated/mc1984] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:48 < bramc> Taek, There needs to be some allowances for some fraction of that top 100 being offline, which leads to attackers claiming that they were 15:49 < justanotheruser> Taek: That seems to bring us to the next layer which is the deadlock issue 15:49 < Taek> deadlock can be avoided so long as 2/3 of parties are both online and not acting maliciously 15:49 < Taek> not a great safety margin 15:49 < justanotheruser> yep 15:50 < Taek> I don't have any safe mechanism for resolving deadlock 15:50 < justanotheruser> and even then, "long range" (at least one block back) attacks can be done 15:50 < bramc> Taek, I'm not entirely convinced that that's all been worked out because there's the business of who's holding the next election which seems a little sketchy 15:51 -!- StephenM347 [~stephenm3@static-64-223-246-218.port.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [] 15:53 < Taek> I keep forgetting that parties can go back and change their mind to write a new history 15:54 < Taek> which is particularly dangerous if they sell all of their stake 15:55 -!- shesek [~shesek@77.127.158.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:55 < phantomcircuit> Taek, wrapping your head around that is the difficult part 15:56 < phantomcircuit> you need to create some kind of incentive to always build on the longest chain 15:56 < phantomcircuit> but that doesn't exist in a pure pos system 15:56 < phantomcircuit> (maybe) 15:57 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:57 -!- DougieBot5000_ [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:01 -!- tdryja [~tx@192-195-81-84.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:05 -!- shesek [~shesek@77.127.158.156] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:06 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:07 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@2601:9:3483:2400:595f:8872:b6c4:31c6] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:11 -!- TonyClifton [~TonyClift@cpc69058-oxfd26-2-0-cust984.4-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:14 -!- xenog [~xenog@c-76-102-12-150.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has 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18:23 < petertodd> phantomcircuit: good example 18:24 < petertodd> phantomcircuit: also, if a block double-spends 18:24 < Luke-Jr> petertodd: thoughts on the conclusion being that "better chain" is the only fraud proof worth implementing? 18:24 < petertodd> phantomcircuit: (er, sorry, not a grat example, easy to make a fraud proof there, not easy to avoid needing the whole chain to make it) 18:25 < andytoshi> i rewrote pos.pdf https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/new-pos.pdf it's over twice as long now, but if anyone would like to proofread that'd be awesome 18:25 < petertodd> Luke-Jr: I think that's nuts and assumes silly things like majority of miners are strictly honest 18:25 < petertodd> Luke-Jr: although with a 1MB blocksize the amount of data to just fully verify is sufficiently low that you *can* get away with it :) 18:26 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:27 -!- bsm117532 [~bsm117532@static-108-21-236-13.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:31 -!- go1111111 [~go1111111@173.192.176.189-static.reverse.softlayer.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:31 -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@xd9bf73fa.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:31 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@unaffiliated/dr-g] has quit [Disconnected by services] 18:33 < phantomcircuit> petertodd, well that ones each you just give the mt branch for both 18:33 -!- molec [~molecular@e176096176.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:33 < phantomcircuit> petertodd, that was my suggestion 18:33 < phantomcircuit> everybody including spv clients should just walk the blockchain once 18:34 < phantomcircuit> dont need to store the blocks or run the scripts just do the normal rule checks 18:34 < phantomcircuit> unfortunately the fraud proof for invalid scripts is "run this script" 18:35 < phantomcircuit> although i guess that's easy to deal with 18:35 < kanzure> andytoshi: woot. i will look soon. 18:35 < phantomcircuit> peer asks you to check a fraud proof 18:35 < phantomcircuit> script is valid 18:36 < kanzure> andytoshi: i strongly encourage you to not call this file new-pos.pdf.... 18:36 < phantomcircuit> stop accepting fraud proofs from peer 18:36 < kanzure> andytoshi: for one there's a lot of backlinks to the old one, and second why would anyone know whether or not they have looked at the "actually new" one? 18:36 < kanzure> you should instead move old pos.pdf somewhere else 18:36 -!- moleccc [~molecular@e176100089.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:38 < kanzure> or perhaps calling it something else entirely, if you want pos.pdf to still go to the old one 18:38 -!- koshii [~0@156.39.191.244] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:39 < phantomcircuit> petertodd, actually i guess the easiest "Fraud proof" is a peer telling you they think something about a block is wrong and for you to check it more closely 18:40 < phantomcircuit> but i guess that's more or less the same as "i think this is the tip" 18:41 < phantomcircuit> annnd we're back to 18:41 < phantomcircuit> petertodd: thoughts on the conclusion being that "better chain" is the only fraud proof worth implementing? 18:41 < phantomcircuit> sort of 18:45 -!- Starduster [~guest@unaffiliated/starduster] has quit [Write error: Connection reset by peer] 18:45 -!- Starduster [~guest@unaffiliated/starduster] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:55 < petertodd> sorry, wifi is dying here 18:56 -!- rnvk [~nvk@unaffiliated/rnvk] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:00 -!- p15 [~p15@111.193.184.163] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:00 < phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, ha i think i can actually make that work in current bitcoin core without much effort 19:00 < phantomcircuit> doesn't even need a protocol change 19:03 < bramc> The impossibility of proving 'this part of the merkle tree is gibberish' makes it not seem worth worrying about other fraud proofs 19:04 < rusty> andytoshi: s/untimately/ultimately/ 19:06 -!- zooko [~user@c-75-70-204-109.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:08 < phantomcircuit> bramc, huh 19:12 < bramc> If someone wants to defraud they can do it by sending out a a history which is valid except for a single bit of it being missing, so the whole thing will later become invalid for that reason 19:13 < phantomcircuit> oh 19:13 < phantomcircuit> yeah sure 19:18 < kanzure> comments submitted to andytoshi in Private Correspondence haha 19:19 < rusty> andytoshi: Nice. "The author claims without proof that these are not serious problems, only tedious ones" 19:19 -!- xenog [~xenog@c-76-102-12-150.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:42 -!- llllllllll [~lllllllll@6d482698.ftth.concepts.nl] has quit [] 19:42 -!- p15x [~p15x@124.64.102.184] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 19:44 -!- p15x [~p15x@124.64.102.184] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:48 < andytoshi> i've updated the paper from kanzure's comments; there is a new section 2 defining "distributed consensus" and a bunch of minor typographical changes 19:48 -!- p15x [~p15x@124.64.102.184] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 19:49 -!- p15x [~p15x@124.64.102.184] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:55 -!- pgokeeffe [~pgokeeffe@101.165.93.194] has quit [Quit: pgokeeffe] 19:58 -!- afk11 [~thomas@89.100.72.184] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:03 -!- pgokeeffe [~pgokeeffe@101.165.93.194] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:04 -!- p15x [~p15x@124.64.102.184] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 20:07 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:07 -!- p15x [~p15x@124.64.102.184] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:09 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:304:cff8:1580:c0fa:6751:7310:9fb5] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:13 -!- p15_ [~p15@89.248.174.54] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:13 -!- ebfull [~ebfull@c-76-120-40-34.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:14 -!- p15 [~p15@111.193.184.163] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:17 -!- rnvk [~nvk@unaffiliated/rnvk] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:38 -!- zooko [~user@174-16-54-162.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:40 -!- skittylx [skittylx@unaffiliated/skittylx] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:41 -!- Burrito [~Burrito@unaffiliated/burrito] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:47 -!- koshii [~0@173-164-187-210-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:47 -!- p15x [~p15x@124.64.102.184] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 20:48 -!- p15x [~p15x@124.64.102.184] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:49 -!- prodatalab_ [~prodatala@adsl-74-178-201-115.jax.bellsouth.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:51 -!- prodatalab [~prodatala@2602:304:ab2c:9739:8490:cdbd:5031:aae1] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:53 -!- koshii [~0@173-164-187-210-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:54 < bramc> andytoshi, The non-dmms system you suggest seems to be non-dmms on a technicality 20:59 < andytoshi> 17:10:55 yeah, but when i try to formalize dmms i seem to find that either the security property is way too permissive (and doesn't provide any protection against bad histories) or it's tight enough that it eexcludes PoS for reasons that feel like technicalities 20:59 < andytoshi> bramc: so i don't say "pos is not a DMMS so it sucks", i say "pos is an alternative to DMMS but it doesn't work, non-DMMS distributed consensus is still open" 21:00 < bramc> That's all well and good, but waylayed rewards are still rewards 21:03 < kanzure> what? 21:04 -!- user7779_ [~user77790@ool-4a5987f1.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:05 -!- user7779078 [user777907@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-nydfnjwrugaqudgk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:08 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:10 < bramc> kanzure, I'm referring to ", simple changes to Bitcoin’s protocol, such as rewarding miners 21:10 < bramc> 6 21:10 < bramc> In that same blog post, Buterin says “if you are tired of opponents of proof of stake pointing you to this article[Poe14b] 21:10 < bramc> by Andrew Poelstra, feel free to link them here in response”. It is not clear what he means by this; he did not, there or 21:10 < bramc> anywhere, refute that paper’s claim that you cannot produce consensus except by consuming an external resource. 21:10 < bramc> 7 21:10 < bramc> with “coupons” to mine far-future blocks with lower difficulty[BCD+14, Section 6.1] seem unlikely 21:10 < bramc> to harm consensus while definitely not satisfying the given definition of DMMS" 21:10 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-180-192-179.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:10 < bramc> gack, sorry for the carriage returns 21:11 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@2601:9:3483:2400:4cdf:538f:a017:db28] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:11 < bramc> It seems like those coupons should fall within a not very expanded definition of dmms 21:11 -!- xenog [~xenog@c-50-161-2-22.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:11 -!- koshii [~0@c-24-5-244-92.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:12 < andytoshi> bramc: if you think you can expand it i'm open to suggestions at apoelstra@wpsoftware.net ... especially because it'd be nice to have a good argument about the waylayed rewards ... but my feeling after spending a cuople minutes on it was that it'd be messy 21:12 < bramc> Probably messy, yes 21:12 < andytoshi> maybe the definition wouldn't be too bad but the "consensus is possible" argument would be 21:13 < gmaxwell> works fine so long as the cupons are external to the system, internal? it just ends up cyclic and you need a synchronous network assumption to resolve it; I think. 21:13 < gmaxwell> coupons* 21:14 < bramc> gmaxwell, They mostly mess up the discretization into heartbeats 21:15 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@2601:9:3483:2400:4cdf:538f:a017:db28] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:15 < bramc> andytoshi, You also skip over the point that it's assumed that nodes have somewhat accurate clocks to ensure that they don't accept histories with too many mining rewards. Bitcoin wouldn't work without that. 21:16 < gmaxwell> e.g. with coupons, how do you prevent existing coupon holders from just denying everyone new the ability to participate? How do you differentiate a simulated alternative history that just plays out differently that goes back before all the current coupons were created, except by assuming that the network is magically synchronous and all the participants will effortlessly agree on the past beyond 21:16 < gmaxwell> some horizon? 21:16 < andytoshi> bramc: that's only necessary as an anti-dos measure 21:17 < gmaxwell> andytoshi: the inflation schedule could play out too fast. Though thats somewhat orthorgonal to the basic consensus mechenism. 21:18 -!- orik [~orik@50-46-132-219.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 21:18 < andytoshi> oh i see 21:18 < bramc> Maybe we aren't all thinking the same thing about what coupons mean. I'm guessing that they're a bonus for future mining rewards. 21:18 < andytoshi> my bad, i didn't think about that ... im not sure it belongs here tho 21:20 < bramc> andytoshi, It's perfectly fair to say that it's beyond the scope of that document, although it does seem to say that time is totally irrelevant to mining and evaluating a blockchain, which isn't strictly speaking true. 21:20 < bramc> Creates an interesting subtlety in a PoD*PoT system because there are two things which are having their difficulty reset and only one measuring stick to use on both of them. 21:23 < bramc> Gotta reboot, bbiab 21:23 -!- bramc [~bram@99-75-88-206.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:26 < moa> https://pthree.org/2014/12/07/use-dev-random-instead-of-dev-null/ something for a friday afternoon 21:27 < Taek> throughput isn't even affected that much 21:29 < rusty> moa: I remember when someone unlinked /dev/null on a SunOS system once. The resulting content was surprising. 21:30 < rusty> Taek: um, that'd be because dd defaults to 512 byte reads and writes. The kernel's /dev/null optimizations won't even get a play, really. 21:31 * Taek runs his own benchmarks 21:32 -!- xenog [~xenog@c-50-161-2-22.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:32 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, well you can make census work by following the fork but it's more or less useless since you'd constantly be invalidinag outputs that people considered final 21:32 < phantomcircuit> you'd end up with consensus... but it's useless 21:33 < rusty> Taek: 1M blocks here on Ubuntu ISO: /dev/null: real 0m0.198s. /dev/random: real 0m11.056s 21:34 < Taek> rusty: /dev/random: 91MB/s. /dev/null: 5.0GB/s 21:34 < rusty> Taek: that seems about right. 21:37 < phantomcircuit> rusty, the dd into /dev/random is limited by time in the filesystem code reading the iso 21:37 < phantomcircuit> dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/random will give wildly different results 21:38 < rusty> phantomcircuit: um, no. 21:38 < phantomcircuit> the lower bound is 21:39 < phantomcircuit> also i think dd defaults to 1 byte blocks 21:39 < rusty> phantomcircuit: No, 512. See above. 21:39 < phantomcircuit> your right it does 21:39 < phantomcircuit> huh 21:39 < rusty> phantomcircuit: sure, you can eliminate the fs overhead, but as you can see above, it's minimal. 21:40 < rusty> phantomcircuit: you have to be old to know this :) 21:40 < Taek> using /dev/zero as input I'm getting approx. the same results 21:40 < phantomcircuit> that's weird 21:40 < phantomcircuit> i bet that guys is reading from disk and not page cache for /dev/random and then from page cache for /dev/null 21:41 < rusty> phantomcircuit: no, I think the syscall overhead is dominating, that's all. 21:41 < phantomcircuit> what kind of horribly kernel is syscall limited for that kind of call 21:41 < rusty> phantomcircuit: oh, actually, yeah. 21:42 < rusty> phantomcircuit: sorry, I get a much worse /dev/random result for 512 blocks too. He's on crack... 21:42 < rusty> phantomcircuit: ie. you're right. 21:47 -!- ThinThread [~far@onegrandcircle.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:47 < rusty> phantomcircuit: perhaps he doesn't have 4.5GB of memory free, so he's bounded by reading from disk? He 21:48 < rusty> 's getting 54MB, I'm getting 84 here (to /dev/random), so perhaps that makes sense. 21:48 < ThinThread> if anyone wants to donate to my Adidab cap fund the address is 1FFUbeoDbX2dCpwBU9GRMgtTfXvKrewujG 21:48 < ThinThread> (all day i dream about bitcoin) 21:50 < phantomcircuit> rusty, he must have a really shitty hdd 21:50 < ThinThread> whats a short way to say that money being the root of all evil only applies to fiat? 21:51 < moa> ThinThread: the accurate quote is "the love of money is the root of all evil" 21:52 < ThinThread> ok, but... i dont think loving bitcoin is bad. 21:52 < moa> depends on your intentions I guess 21:52 -!- [7] [~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven] has quit [Disconnected by services] 21:52 < rusty> ThinThread: I think you're in the wrong channel. 21:52 -!- TheSeven [~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:55 < moa> i more interested if it really is such a good idea using /dev/random as a garbage bin? 21:58 -!- user7779_ [~user77790@ool-4a5987f1.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:00 -!- p15x [~p15x@124.64.102.184] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 22:01 -!- p15x [~p15x@124.64.102.184] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:01 -!- orik [~orik@c-71-227-207-191.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:03 -!- coiner [~linker@1.54.73.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:04 -!- p15_ [~p15@89.248.174.54] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 22:07 -!- orik [~orik@c-71-227-207-191.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…] 22:25 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:45 -!- pgokeeffe [~pgokeeffe@101.165.93.194] has quit [Quit: pgokeeffe] 22:48 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, so uh i was thinking, cant we just check if any of our peers think there's a fork, validate those headers, and then check the scripts at the fork 22:49 < phantomcircuit> (this is expensive and i hope virtually never happens) 22:49 < phantomcircuit> oh no we cant since i could fork at like block 4 easily 22:49 < phantomcircuit> or worse at block say 200k 22:51 < phantomcircuit> although strictly speaking that wouldn't be anymore work than we're doing now 22:52 < phantomcircuit> and we could check ALL the scripts in the background with a duplicate utxo set 22:52 < phantomcircuit> er not duplicate "forked" 22:52 < phantomcircuit> another 22:52 < phantomcircuit> just another one 22:52 < phantomcircuit> >.> 22:53 < gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: thats a change in the security model, you're not supposed to accept an _invalid_ chain even if all your peers are malicious. That this is true may decrease the incentive for all your peers to actually be malicious. 22:57 -!- zooko` [~user@c-75-70-204-109.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:58 -!- bsm117532 [~bsm117532@static-108-21-236-13.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:59 -!- zooko [~user@174-16-54-162.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:03 -!- zooko` [~user@c-75-70-204-109.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:04 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, this is along side the height check of course 23:05 < phantomcircuit> in the background you'd be running all the script checks 23:05 < phantomcircuit> but if you saw another peer that had another fork you'd stop and assume the scripts might be invalid 23:21 -!- coiner [~linker@113.161.87.238] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:32 -!- orik [~orik@c-71-227-207-191.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:40 -!- orik [~orik@c-71-227-207-191.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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