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ZZZzzz…] 08:31 -!- p15x [~p15x@111.193.190.250] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:31 -!- bit2017 [~linker@42.116.153.229] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:32 -!- bit2017 [~linker@42.116.153.229] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 08:33 -!- bit2017 [~linker@42.116.153.229] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:34 -!- bit2017 [~linker@42.116.153.229] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 08:34 -!- bit2017 [~linker@42.116.153.229] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:35 -!- Quanttek [~quassel@2a02:8108:73f:f6e4:e23f:49ff:fe47:9364] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:38 -!- dgenr8 [~dgenr8@unaffiliated/dgenr8] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:38 -!- dgenr8 [~dgenr8@unaffiliated/dgenr8] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:42 -!- hashtag [~hashtag@87.97.56.71.pool.invitel.hu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:43 -!- hearn [~mike@46.140.0.89] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:47 -!- chris13243 [~chris@68.27.25.49] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:50 -!- waxwing__ [~waxwing@62.205.214.125] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:50 -!- waxwing [waxwing@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-gozipxszzeopzdfg] has quit [Disconnected by services] 08:50 -!- waxwing__ is now known as waxwing 08:52 -!- SDCDev [~quassel@unaffiliated/sdcdev] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:54 -!- hearn [~mike@46.140.0.89] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 08:58 -!- ryanxcharles [~ryan@64.124.157.148] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:03 -!- koshii [~0@99-118-214-21.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 09:09 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:13 -!- chris13243 [~chris@174.144.220.32] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:15 -!- hearn [~mike@185.25.95.132] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:20 -!- bitbumper [~bitbumper@sl-gw21-kc-5-0-4-si202.sprintlink.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:26 -!- spinza [~spin@197.89.19.81] has quit [Excess Flood] 09:31 -!- spinza [~spin@197.89.19.81] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:33 -!- chris13243 [~chris@174.144.220.32] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:43 -!- spinza [~spin@197.89.19.81] has quit [Excess Flood] 09:44 -!- shesek [~shesek@77.127.158.156] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:44 -!- Burrito [~Burrito@unaffiliated/burrito] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:49 -!- spinza [~spin@197.89.19.81] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:49 < gmaxwell> Heh: thermal sidechannels, http://www.wired.com/2015/03/stealing-data-computers-using-heat/ 09:52 < kanzure> in practice i imagine that ends up like http://i57.servimg.com/u/f57/15/08/47/58/28310510.jpg 09:55 < Adlai> this isn't really 'sidechannel' in the same sense as a timing attacks... just another way of communicating between already compromised systems 09:56 < Adlai> the receiving computer can't detect anything that's not intentionally broadcast from the transmitter 09:57 -!- hashtag [~hashtag@87.97.56.71.pool.invitel.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:57 -!- orik [~orik@50-46-132-219.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 09:57 -!- tcrypt [~tylersmit@173.247.206.110] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:58 < gmaxwell> Adlai: there is still actually a sidechannel there (it's just low enough capacity that its unlikely to be useful except intentionally). 09:59 < fluffypony> for those who've poked around with Darkcoin, did I miss anything major? http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2zufu1/a_great_podcast_by_lets_talk_bitcoin_discussing/cpmvogy?context=3 09:59 -!- bitbumper [~bitbumper@sl-gw21-kc-5-0-4-si202.sprintlink.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:00 < fluffypony> (also my favourite comment in that thread is this one: "Maybe Bitcoin could implement some of the features, learn from what DRK is doing" - http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2zufu1/a_great_podcast_by_lets_talk_bitcoin_discussing/cpmxf62) 10:01 < gmaxwell> fluffypony: ask brisque when he's on, he knows more than most. 10:01 < fluffypony> kk 10:01 -!- phiche [~Adium@193.89.189.140] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:05 -!- bosma [~bosma@S01067cb21bda6531.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:05 -!- bosma [~bosma@S01067cb21bda6531.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:12 -!- rustyn_ [~rustyn@unaffiliated/rustyn] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:13 -!- rustyn [~rustyn@unaffiliated/rustyn] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:13 -!- hearn [~mike@185.25.95.132] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 10:19 -!- rustyn_ is now known as rustyn 10:22 -!- dabura667 [uid43070@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-zfwcylbteytopphr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:22 < dabura667> argh, I am going insane. 10:22 * fluffypony sends dabura667 to a shrink 10:23 < dabura667> Anyone willing to look over my crappy BIP32 implementation in Python? 10:23 < dabura667> I can initialize ok, but deriving gives me incorrect values, and afaik I am throwing the right values into the hmac 10:23 < dabura667> but the correct privkey doesn't come out of the hmac 10:24 < sipa> the outout of the hmac is not the key 10:24 < dabura667> I know 10:24 < dabura667> the left 32 bits 10:24 < dabura667> bytes 10:24 < dabura667> oh wait 10:24 < dabura667> OHHH YEAH 10:24 < dabura667> d'oh 10:24 < sipa> you still need to add the parent privkey 10:24 < dabura667> thanks for reminding me 10:24 < dabura667> I was going insane here. I knew it was something stupid like that. thanks. 10:25 -!- nuke1989 [~nuke@46-149-36.adsl.cyta.gr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:25 -!- tdryja [~tx@s186.62.229.222.fls.vectant.ne.jp] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:26 -!- hearn [~mike@185.25.95.132] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:28 < andytoshi> dabura667: fyi, in future, #bitcoin-dev is a better channel for implementation questions 10:28 -!- nubbins` [~leel@unaffiliated/nubbins] has quit [Quit: Quit] 10:29 < dabura667> ok thanks, I was under the impression it was only Core related 10:29 < dabura667> made a mental note 10:30 -!- nubbins` [~leel@unaffiliated/nubbins] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:30 -!- satwo [~satwo@2602:306:378a:4860:1166:14cc:d3ff:f868] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:36 -!- p15x [~p15x@114.248.215.199] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:38 -!- rubensayshi [~ruben@91.206.81.13] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:39 -!- rubensayshi [~ruben@91.206.81.13] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:46 -!- lclc [~lucas@unaffiliated/lclc] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:47 -!- Mably [56401ec5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.86.64.30.197] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 10:50 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:51 -!- p15x [~p15x@114.248.215.199] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 10:52 -!- p15x [~p15x@114.248.215.199] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:55 -!- hashtag [~hashtag@87.97.54.184.pool.invitel.hu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:58 -!- CoinMuncher [~jannes@178.132.211.90] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:05 -!- hearn [~mike@185.25.95.132] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 11:06 -!- hashtag_ [~hashtag@87.97.54.184.pool.invitel.hu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:09 -!- hashtag [~hashtag@87.97.54.184.pool.invitel.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:13 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:16 -!- hashtag_ [~hashtag@87.97.54.184.pool.invitel.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 11:17 -!- stonecoldpat [~Paddy@janus-nat-128-240-225-56.ncl.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:23 -!- tdryja [~tx@s186.62.229.222.fls.vectant.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:26 -!- tdryja [~tx@s186.62.229.222.fls.vectant.ne.jp] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:26 -!- hearn [~mike@185.25.95.132] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:28 -!- phiche [~Adium@193.89.189.140] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:28 -!- OneNomos [~OneNomos@pool-71-163-237-248.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:29 -!- tdryja [~tx@s186.62.229.222.fls.vectant.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:29 -!- tdryja [~tx@s186.62.229.222.fls.vectant.ne.jp] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:29 -!- tdryja [~tx@s186.62.229.222.fls.vectant.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 11:33 -!- devrandom [~devrandom@unaffiliated/niftyzero1] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:34 -!- alferz [~alferz@unaffiliated/alfer] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:35 -!- rubensayshi [~ruben@91.206.81.13] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:37 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-180-192-179.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:37 < fluffypony> http://eprint.iacr.org/2015/263.pdf 11:38 -!- DrGrid [b2c5e3bb@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.178.197.227.187] has quit [Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client] 11:39 -!- orik [~orik@50-46-132-219.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:39 < nubbins`> fluffypony: dat misspelling of Colombia 11:40 -!- DrGrid [b2c5e3bb@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.178.197.227.187] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:42 < fluffypony> lol nubbins` I didn't even catch that 11:44 -!- hashtag [~hashtag@87.97.54.184.pool.invitel.hu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:48 -!- alferz [~alferz@unaffiliated/alfer] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 11:52 < MRL-Relay> [tacotime] this sounds a lot like the known sybil attacks 11:53 < MRL-Relay> [tacotime] thought it's neat that they quantitize them 11:59 -!- hashtag_ [~hashtag@87.97.54.184.pool.invitel.hu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:02 -!- Sub|afk [~SubCreati@c-76-121-19-166.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:02 -!- hashtag [~hashtag@87.97.54.184.pool.invitel.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:03 -!- dc17523b13 [unknown@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-ceifaluzjuqsrmyk] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:04 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: phedny, so, gmaxwell, HM, LeMiner 12:04 -!- gmaxwell [greg@mf4-xiph.osuosl.org] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:04 -!- gmaxwell is now known as Guest67686 12:04 -!- dc17523be3 [~unknown@cpe-66-68-54-206.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:05 -!- Netsplit over, joins: HM 12:06 -!- tdryja [~tx@s186.62.229.222.fls.vectant.ne.jp] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:06 -!- SubCreative [~SubCreati@unaffiliated/cannacoin] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:06 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-180-192-179.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:11 -!- SubCreative [~SubCreati@c-76-121-19-166.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:11 -!- SubCreative [~SubCreati@c-76-121-19-166.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 12:11 -!- SubCreative [~SubCreati@unaffiliated/cannacoin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:11 -!- Sub|afk [~SubCreati@c-76-121-19-166.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:12 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-180-192-179.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:13 -!- tdryja1 [~tx@s186.62.229.222.fls.vectant.ne.jp] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:15 -!- tdryja [~tx@s186.62.229.222.fls.vectant.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:16 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-180-192-179.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:19 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-180-192-179.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:19 -!- tdryja1 [~tx@s186.62.229.222.fls.vectant.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:19 -!- orik [~orik@50-46-132-219.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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Remember that whole hoopla with the Microsoft Research paper on ring sigs? Every altcoin was going to implement "Chandran Signatures" and this would automagically make Monero meaningless 14:36 < sipa> altcoins? implement? 14:36 < MRL-Relay> [tacotime] well... i mean, pretty zany things are recommended by the general public for bitcoins each day in r/bitcoin, most of which are insane or not very useful. 14:37 < MRL-Relay> [tacotime] heh. 14:38 < fluffypony> sipa: this thing - https://www.stealth-coin.com/wp-content/uploads/Stealthsend_Whitepaper_brief0914.pdf 14:39 < fluffypony> they have an entire page on Chandran signatures 14:39 < fluffypony> they quickly backtracked on the idea after andytoshi and gmaxwell discussed it here 14:40 < fluffypony> hilarity ensued 14:41 -!- xenog [~xenog@c-76-102-12-150.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:42 -!- davispuh [~quassel@212.93.97.67] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:48 -!- tdryja [~tx@c-24-60-154-85.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:52 -!- helo [~helo@unaffiliated/helo] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:52 -!- tdryja [~tx@c-24-60-154-85.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:53 -!- tdryja [~tx@s186.62.229.222.fls.vectant.ne.jp] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:55 -!- xenog [~xenog@c-76-102-12-150.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:59 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-180-192-179.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:02 -!- dEBRUYNE_ [~dEBRUYNE@239-196-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:04 -!- Mably [~Mably@unaffiliated/mably] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:05 -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@239-196-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:05 -!- TonyClifton [~TonyClift@cpc69058-oxfd26-2-0-cust984.4-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:10 < adam3us> bbut its O(n) instead of O(2n) :) 15:10 -!- helo [~helo@unaffiliated/helo] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:15 < andytoshi> fluffypony: lol, oh well. sometimes reddit pattern-matches to useful related research.. 15:15 -!- p15x [~p15x@114.248.215.199] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 15:16 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-180-192-179.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:16 -!- p15x [~p15x@114.248.215.199] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:16 -!- TonyClif_ [~TonyClift@gateway-nat.fmrib.ox.ac.uk] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:18 -!- Quanttek [~quassel@2a02:8108:73f:f6e4:e23f:49ff:fe47:9364] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:19 -!- TonyClifton [~TonyClift@cpc69058-oxfd26-2-0-cust984.4-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:20 < adam3us> fluffypony: i had looked at the chandran et al paper. problem i have is its based on weil pairing and maybe some other assumptions. in the direction of but not as far as snark novel construction risk 15:21 -!- x98gvyn [~vfbtgn@5-12-202-53.residential.rdsnet.ro] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:23 < fluffypony> and it requires a trusted setup 15:23 < fluffypony> plus the verification time would be horrendous (it's bad enough in Monero as it is) 15:24 < gmaxwell> the verification time was linear in the ring size, IIRC. 15:24 -!- p15x [~p15x@114.248.215.199] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 15:24 -!- mrkent [~textual@unaffiliated/mrkent] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:25 -!- p15x [~p15x@124.64.102.27] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:25 < gmaxwell> fluffypony: I dunno if its changed but the implementation in monero I think was pretty performance braindamaged before. 15:25 < andytoshi> how practical (and plausibly secure) are zk accumulators? 15:26 < fluffypony> gmaxwell: nothing's changed, we still sigverify on one thread because logic 15:26 -!- phiche [~Adium@93-162-117-171-dynamic.dk.customer.tdc.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:26 * fluffypony sighs at the bits of the codebase nobody wants to touch 15:26 < adam3us> gmaxwell: that (verification time O(n) ) maybe hard to avoid short of snarks. it seems to me that you need to admit the possibility with fresh pseudo randomness that any signer could've signed and to prevent existential forgery so you need to bind all those values together so that there is at least one non-existential forgery 15:28 -!- x98gvyn [~vfbtgn@5-12-202-53.residential.rdsnet.ro] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:28 < gmaxwell> the forgery needs only be computationally infeasable though... so it's not obvious to me that the O(n) can't fundimentally be amoritized (and indeed the snark over a hash tree proof does that). 15:29 -!- p15x [~p15x@124.64.102.27] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 15:31 -!- p15x [~p15x@124.64.102.27] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:33 < adam3us> gmaxwell: yeah maybe. just not with the ideas i explored so far :) my criteria were to avoid any novel crypto though so thats constraining perhaps. 15:33 -!- tdryja [~tx@s186.62.229.222.fls.vectant.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:36 -!- arubi_ [~ese168@unaffiliated/arubi] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:36 -!- xenog [~xenog@c-76-102-12-150.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:42 -!- Emcy_ [~MC@unaffiliated/mc1984] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:44 < amiller> andytoshi, by zk accumulators, you mean the RSA ones that zerocoin uses? 15:44 < andytoshi> amiller: yeah, a quick search suggests there aren't others out there 15:45 < amiller> there are, there are a) accumulators from generic snarks like zerocash uses, there are b) ones using bilinear groups but they have kind of worse setup costs 15:45 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@ppp005054006011.access.hol.gr] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:46 < andytoshi> oh ok, i saw "strong RSA" in the title and thought they might've been number theoretic :/ 15:46 -!- OneNomos [~OneNomos@pool-71-163-237-248.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:46 < petertodd> sipa: friday for sure, but maybe sooner - don't know yet 15:46 -!- tdryja [~tx@s186.62.229.222.fls.vectant.ne.jp] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:46 < sipa> ah, i'm coming to sf on wednesday 15:46 < amiller> andytoshi, i mean there are at least three kinds of accumulators, a) like in zerocash, b) using bilinear groups, c) like in zerocoin 15:46 < amiller> the last one is based on strong RSA assumption 15:47 < petertodd> sipa: cool, that's a maybe - not sure I'm in sf wed/thu/fri yet 15:47 < gmaxwell> andytoshi: the rsa like ones in theory can work in any additive cyclic group group with unknown order. 15:47 -!- binaryFate [~binaryFat@2a02:2788:64:d7f:e564:94b6:7d8a:adb2] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:48 -!- orik [~orik@c-71-231-93-249.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:48 -!- orik [~orik@c-71-231-93-249.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:50 < amiller> andytoshi, this is the main citation for the RSA one, which zerocoin basically uses in tact http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/3-540-45708-9_5#page-1 15:51 < amiller> gmaxwell, that surprises me, you can do some kinds of zero knowledge proofs in cyclic group groups with unknown order but not everything you need for a zk accumulator.. 15:51 < andytoshi> ok, thx for the help guys. my usecase fell apart when i looked at it too closely but i'll keep this in mind.. 15:55 < adam3us> speaking of RSA accumulators this shoup et al paper http://www.shoup.net/papers/subring.pdf has fixed size ring signature based on some small extension to the benaloh accumulator. but its not linkable. 15:58 < gmaxwell> amiller: could just be confirmation bias on my part. I don't off the top of my head have an argument to support that claim in a strong sense; but it was my cached result. 15:58 -!- hashtag [~hashtag@87.97.54.184.pool.invitel.hu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:58 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@ppp005054006011.access.hol.gr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:58 -!- bitbumper [~bitbumper@sl-gw21-kc-5-0-4-si202.sprintlink.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:59 -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:59 < amiller> gmaxwell, okay. the rsa accumulator is a little wonky, like you can only accumulate prime numbers 15:59 -!- bsm117532 [~bsm117532@static-108-21-236-13.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:00 < amiller> zerocoin gets around that by just redrawing commitments over and over again until the commitment value iteslf is literally a prime number 16:00 < gmaxwell> yea, well you're trying to show knoweldge of a N-th root. 16:01 -!- mrkent [~textual@unaffiliated/mrkent] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 16:01 -!- hashtag_ [~hashtag@87.97.54.184.pool.invitel.hu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:01 -!- sipa [~pw@2a02:348:5e:5a29::1] has quit [Changing host] 16:01 -!- sipa [~pw@unaffiliated/sipa1024] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:03 -!- hashtagg_ [~hashtag@87.97.54.184.pool.invitel.hu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:04 -!- hashtag [~hashtag@87.97.54.184.pool.invitel.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:06 -!- hashtag_ [~hashtag@87.97.54.184.pool.invitel.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:07 -!- hearn [~mike@84-75-198-85.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 16:07 -!- xenog [~xenog@c-76-102-12-150.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:08 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:08 -!- lmacken [~lewk@starfighter.csh.rit.edu] has quit [Changing host] 16:08 -!- lmacken [~lewk@fedora/lmacken] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:13 -!- OneNomos [~OneNomos@pool-71-163-237-248.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:17 -!- hashtag_ [~hashtag@87.97.54.184.pool.invitel.hu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:18 -!- prepost [~rs232@184.7.34.95.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:20 -!- hashtagg_ [~hashtag@87.97.54.184.pool.invitel.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:20 -!- xenog [~xenog@c-76-102-12-150.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:23 -!- binaryFate [~binaryFat@2a02:2788:64:d7f:e564:94b6:7d8a:adb2] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 16:32 -!- orik [~orik@50-46-132-219.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:36 -!- xenog [~xenog@46.7.118.40] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:36 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:38 -!- Mably [~Mably@unaffiliated/mably] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:43 -!- hashtag_ [~hashtag@87.97.54.184.pool.invitel.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:53 -!- tromp_ [~tromp@ool-18be0b4d.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:55 -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:56 -!- fanquake [~anonymous@unaffiliated/fanquake] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:01 -!- TonyClif_ [~TonyClift@gateway-nat.fmrib.ox.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:02 -!- xenog [~xenog@46.7.118.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:02 < andytoshi> adam3us: the paper you posted uses an accumulator based on RSA; i guess there is a trusted party who knows the factorization of the modulus? so for cryptocurrency we'd need to use a UFO? 17:03 < andytoshi> adam3us: (or just take the zerocoin accumulator and put that into the paper's result i guess) 17:04 -!- xenog [~xenog@c-76-102-12-150.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:06 -!- melvster [~melvster@ip-86-49-18-198.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:07 -!- droark [~droark@209-6-53-207.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:09 -!- dEBRUYNE_ [~dEBRUYNE@239-196-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:10 -!- melvster [~melvster@ip-86-49-18-198.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:11 -!- mkarrer_ [~mkarrer@236.Red-176-84-66.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:11 -!- mkarrer [~mkarrer@236.Red-176-84-66.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:17 -!- xenog [~xenog@c-76-102-12-150.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:19 -!- koshii [~0@99-118-214-21.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:20 < amiller> andytoshi, all accumulators using RSA have that, yeah, including the zerocoin one 17:20 -!- koshii [~0@99-118-214-21.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:21 < andytoshi> amiller: but is it true that you can get around it by using UFOs? 17:22 -!- TonyClifton [~TonyClift@gateway-nat.fmrib.ox.ac.uk] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:23 < amiller> im pretty sure, yeah. i'm not 100% that everything that's defined for an RSA modulus sitll works with an RSA ufo but i'd be surprised if anything doesnt. 17:23 < amiller> or you can do a multiparty setup ceremony 17:24 -!- xenog [~xenog@ec2-54-186-18-161.us-west-2.compute.amazonaws.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:24 < amiller> also i think you can reuse RSA moduli across projects since they dont have any other 'special' properties other than being sufficiently big, i dont think, as opposed to generating the setup for a snark which has to be done again for every new 'circuit' 17:27 < andytoshi> hmmm maybe i could find one in a famous dead person's gpg key :P 17:33 -!- Emcy_ [~MC@unaffiliated/mc1984] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:40 -!- tdryja [~tx@s186.62.229.222.fls.vectant.ne.jp] has left #bitcoin-wizards [] 17:50 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@ppp005054006011.access.hol.gr] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:53 -!- dEBRUYNE_ [~dEBRUYNE@239-196-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:54 -!- go1111111 [~go1111111@162.244.138.37] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:58 -!- kmels [~kmels@186.151.60.120] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:59 -!- ryanxcharles [~ryan@64.124.157.148] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:04 -!- TonyClifton [~TonyClift@gateway-nat.fmrib.ox.ac.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:07 -!- go1111111 [~go1111111@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/go1111111] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:07 -!- StephenM347 [~stephenm3@static-64-223-246-218.port.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:11 -!- c0rw1n is now known as c0rw|sleep 18:12 -!- jessepollak [~jessepoll@104.131.138.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:12 -!- jessepollak [~jessepoll@104.131.138.130] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:18 -!- PRab [~chatzilla@2601:4:400:2105:31e4:4794:60d1:b96e] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:18 -!- orik [~orik@50-46-132-219.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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Unlike prior Byzantine agreement protocols, which presuppose unanimous agreement on system membership, a federated protocol allows the set of participating organizations to grow organically over time. " 20:34 < kanzure> is there a strong reason for me to be interested in federated consensus 20:34 < bramc> Looks like the goal is to allow the set of consensus servers to vote in new consensus servers 20:35 < bramc> What is 'federated consensus'? 20:37 < gmaxwell> kanzure: is it just the trivial thing where you assume that the earlier keys are never compromised and never turn dishonest? so you're just following a sequence there? if so.. thats not terribly interesting. (well it's what the fedpeg stuff does too, but I wouldn't describe that as a fundimental property of the consensus system unless it didn't need assumptions like those) 20:37 < bramc> kanzure, I mean, I understand 'we appointed this set of consensus servers and they can vote in new consensus servers and as long as never more than X% of the peers participated in a conspiracy everything is still on the up and up' 20:39 < kanzure> i don't know the details of their scheme; i'm not sure i can think of any formulation of federated that makes me interested in this. 20:39 -!- thrasher` [~thrasher@27-33-27-140.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:40 -!- skittylx [skittylx@unaffiliated/skittylx] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:40 < gmaxwell> so what happens if the initial set is eventually completely replaced and then turns evil, will they be able to decieve (and thus split the network) new users / users who were offline for a bit? 20:40 < gmaxwell> because if so, well okay, but thats not super interesting (you just normally put the membership under the consensus just like any other property.) 20:41 < gmaxwell> If not, then it's very interesting (and probably wrong. :) ) 20:41 < bramc> These things are inherently very fragile: If too many peers leave at once, it just breaks 20:41 < kanzure> i think this is the wrong direction to talk about. instead of talking about whatever their scheme is, it would be better to think of properties that a "federated" system should have, and then go from there. then evaluate their design against that. 20:41 < kanzure> but again, a federated design is somewhat uninteresting to me.... 20:41 < bramc> gmaxwell, You can use timestamping/proofs of time to ensure that peers need to start their conspiracy early and can't retroactively make it later 20:42 < gmaxwell> bramc: then you need another consensus; yo dawg. 20:42 < gmaxwell> bramc: well they don't 'leave at once' if its not ~really~ a p2p system in the sense we use on the internet. E.g. if it's bank2bank, they aren't going to leave unless the system has already become uninteresting to them for other reasons... so there are cases where its more useful than others. 20:43 < gmaxwell> bramc: I agree that you can do things like use any scheme that would have by itself formed a workable consensus system to prevent reversal; though if you were willing to depend on that, why not cut out the federation? (answer: well there can still be value; but its certantly more complex to reason about) 20:44 -!- thrasher` [~thrasher@27-33-27-140.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:44 < bramc> gmaxwell, If it's really a centralized system which just rolls its keys slowly over time that can certainly work. Also not all that interesting. 20:46 < gmaxwell> Thats what I was asking; I think thats not interesting, also things like "use a POW blockchain to prevent rollback" is not terribly interesting (yes you can do that, duh, but what does it get you) unless the approach is especially novel. 20:48 < gmaxwell> I'm a big fan of FS/NIFS ((non-interactive) forward security). I think the _obvious_ thing to do for any kind of timestamper (like a consensus signer) is to actually rotate the keys with every timestep and destroy the old ones, so even a physical compromise cannot make you split the consensus before the compromise point. 20:48 -!- napedia [~napedia@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/napedia] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:48 < bramc> Trivially, you can make the output of each consensus can include the list of authorities for the next consensus 20:48 < gmaxwell> Exactly. 20:50 < bramc> So yeah, all the authorities can rotate their key each turn on principle, and there's no reason for the consensus agreement itself to give their 'identities', just a list of keys 20:52 < gmaxwell> or any other threshold signature pubkey. e.g. it can just be one of many compact threshold signature schemes. The fact that there is a threshold can just be a property of the particular pubkey in use. 20:52 -!- orik is now known as orik|[away] 20:53 < bramc> Schnorr signatures for the win, only one pubkey necessary :-) 20:53 -!- orik|[away] [~orik@50-46-132-219.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 20:53 < bramc> I wish that were a joke 20:53 < kanzure> the actual agreement between a set of servers in a federated scheme is just not an actual problem as far as i can tell 20:53 < kanzure> and it confuses me why this would be considered byzantine by them 20:56 < bramc> Because if there's nothing byzantine it isn't a cryptocurrency 20:57 < bramc> But, umm, in all seriousness no matter how complex the agreement protocol it should be able to provide a schnorr pubkey for the next block in each block. Boom, any amount of iteration on the agreement protocol you want is possible. 20:58 < gmaxwell> well it's 'byzantine' in that a sub-threshold of the specified, identified participants at any time can be byzantine. 20:59 < gmaxwell> But if it is really that the defintion has to be contorted around the membership changes. 21:02 -!- PRab [~chatzilla@2601:4:400:2105:9928:e934:a87d:7ee1] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:02 < gmaxwell> in any case, if anyone finds out otherwise, lemme know! 21:05 < bramc> Well, I have my big question to ask now, I'm planning on going to the talk, although it isn't happening for a month 21:06 < bramc> Is anybody going to the cryptocurrency workshop going on at stanford right now? 21:06 < kanzure> there was an email sent out to the xgbtc list, i asked for a livestream, but nope no linkz 21:08 < gmaxwell> not sure about my schedule a month out; kinda hard to justify going without a better basis on it being interesting. :) maybe. 21:08 < gmaxwell> (I'm at the IETF in dallas right now) 21:09 < kanzure> ietf has a physical place? 21:11 -!- tcrypt [~tylersmit@c-67-169-17-114.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:11 < bramc> ietf definitely has a space in san francisco 21:12 < bramc> gmaxwell, It's part of a general security workshop http://forum.stanford.edu//events/2015security.php 21:15 < gmaxwell> kanzure: IETF meetings are held three times a year at wandering locations in rotating geographies. It's in dallas this time. 21:20 -!- satwo [~satwo@2602:306:378a:4860:b5f4:6e85:d92:21e5] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:20 -!- satwo [~satwo@2602:306:378a:4860:b5f4:6e85:d92:21e5] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:21 -!- tcrypt [~tylersmit@c-67-169-17-114.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:23 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-180-192-179.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:23 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@2601:9:3483:2400:4530:a715:a027:46a3] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:27 -!- gribble [~gribble@unaffiliated/nanotube/bot/gribble] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:28 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@2601:9:3483:2400:4530:a715:a027:46a3] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:30 -!- skittylx [skittylx@unaffiliated/skittylx] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:30 -!- gonedrk [~gonedrk@d40a6497.rev.stofanet.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:31 -!- satwo [~satwo@2602:306:378a:4860:b5f4:6e85:d92:21e5] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:31 -!- satwo_ [~satwo@2602:306:378a:4860:b5f4:6e85:d92:21e5] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:31 -!- satwo_ [~satwo@2602:306:378a:4860:b5f4:6e85:d92:21e5] has quit [Client Quit] 21:31 -!- satwo [~satwo@2602:306:378a:4860:b5f4:6e85:d92:21e5] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:31 -!- gribble [~gribble@unaffiliated/nanotube/bot/gribble] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:36 -!- TheSeven [~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven] has quit [Disconnected by services] 21:36 -!- [7] [~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:38 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:38 -!- tcrypt [~tylersmit@c-67-169-17-114.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 21:44 -!- p15x [~p15x@124.64.102.27] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 21:45 -!- p15x [~p15x@124.64.102.27] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:48 -!- devrandom [~devrandom@unaffiliated/niftyzero1] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:00 < phantomcircuit> kanzure, a federated system in which you can vote in new signers seems like a pretty hilariously bad idea 22:02 < bramc> phantomcircuit, It's better than a single signing key. Although as we were just discussing, a single signing key can be collaboratively generated, so there's no clear need for the blockchain format itself to contain anything other than a single signing key per block 22:03 < phantomcircuit> bramc, a federated system is reasonable 22:03 < phantomcircuit> a federated system in which you try to implement dynamic membership? 22:03 < phantomcircuit> not so much 22:04 < bramc> Not sure what's wrong with it, you can hand off your identity to somebody else unilaterally anyway 22:05 < phantomcircuit> bramc, if the original keys are compromised the set of signers can be changed after the fact 22:05 < phantomcircuit> although i see now gmaxwell suggested constant rotation and key destruction 22:13 -!- Burrito [~Burrito@unaffiliated/burrito] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:18 < phantomcircuit> bramc, hmm actually 22:18 -!- devrandom [~devrandom@unaffiliated/niftyzero1] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:18 < bramc> Yeah, rotate keys and destroy every block. Also use a schnorr signature so you can do multiparty key generation without having to gunk up the blockchain with the details 22:18 < phantomcircuit> i guess you could build a DMMS on top of a federated system 22:20 -!- devrandom [~devrandom@unaffiliated/niftyzero1] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:21 < phantomcircuit> bramc, still seems like asking for trouble though 22:22 < bramc> phantomcircuit, Only if you make the claim that it's highly distributed like bitcoin is. If you're more realistic in your claims it's fine 22:24 < phantomcircuit> actually know what i completely retract my previous statement 22:30 -!- prodatalab_ [~prodatala@2602:304:ab2c:9739:c034:edb6:86cd:a6ba] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:32 -!- kmels [~kmels@186.151.60.120] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:33 -!- prodatalab__ [~prodatala@2600:1006:b103:29cf:c034:edb6:86cd:a6ba] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:33 -!- prodatalab [~prodatala@2600:1006:b127:1ff4:c034:edb6:86cd:a6ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:35 -!- prodatalab_ [~prodatala@2602:304:ab2c:9739:c034:edb6:86cd:a6ba] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 22:35 -!- prodatalab [~prodatala@2602:304:ab2c:9739:c034:edb6:86cd:a6ba] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:37 < heath> anyone else at the stanford blockchain conference? 22:38 -!- prodatalab__ [~prodatala@2600:1006:b103:29cf:c034:edb6:86cd:a6ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:39 -!- prodatalab_ [~prodatala@2600:1006:b10a:2e44:c034:edb6:86cd:a6ba] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:42 -!- prodatalab [~prodatala@2602:304:ab2c:9739:c034:edb6:86cd:a6ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:50 -!- bit2017 [~linker@42.116.153.229] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:16 < bramc> heath, Not I. Anything interesting going on? 23:30 -!- b_lumenkraft [~b_lumenkr@unaffiliated/b-lumenkraft/x-4457406] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:31 -!- bramc [~bram@99-75-88-206.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 23:31 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:39 -!- bit2017 [~linker@115.79.43.208] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:40 -!- Mably [~Mably@unaffiliated/mably] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:52 -!- lclc [~lucas@unaffiliated/lclc] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:57 -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:57 -!- p15 [~p15@182.50.108.75] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:57 -!- droark [~droark@209-6-53-207.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: ZZZzzz…] 23:59 -!- p15 [~p15@114.248.208.140] has joined #bitcoin-wizards --- Log closed Tue Mar 24 00:00:31 2015