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03:24 < gmaxwell> [somehow I feel this is related] http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=3692
03:26 < fluffypony> hah hah
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03:29 < fluffypony> Boss: "but what if instead of using a database we used a blockchain?"
03:29 < fluffypony> Developer: "why not just use a database?"
03:29 < fluffypony> Boss: "because if it's in a blockchain then everyone can have a copy of it!"
03:29 < fluffypony> Developer: "...so we use a distributed database? or rsync? or any form of mirroring / syncing / clustering?"
03:29 < fluffypony> Boss: "BLOCKCHAIN."
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03:39 < adam3us> fluffypony: the blockchain hammer.  groan.
03:40 < fluffypony> well at least they're moving on from Cloud and IAAS/SAAS/PAAS
03:40 < fluffypony> although maybe the next step will be BAAS...Blockchain As A Service
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03:49 < gmaxwell> it comic would have been better if he'd mentioned the loss of fuel efficiency on land and perhaps safty/sea-worthness as a boat. :P
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06:08 < leakypat> fluffypony: lol
06:08 < leakypat> Sometimes I think i should setup a blockchain consultancy
06:09 < fluffypony> "LeakyPat's Blockchain Consultancy - Blockchaining All The Things Since 2011"
06:09 < leakypat> I like it
06:09 < leakypat> So what's your blockchain strategy?
06:09 < leakypat> Haha
06:09 < fluffypony> hah hah
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06:14 < jgarzik> I think a couple companies are in fact doing Blockchain-As-A-Service ;p
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06:15 < bsm117532> Which ones?
06:15 < bsm117532> Like, they make an altcoin for you?
06:15 < fluffypony> fine, then we go straight to Sidechains As A Service
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06:44 < jgarzik> bluematt made a joke - coingen.io - which generated an altcoin for you, for 0.5 BTC or somesuch.  Thousands were created ;p
06:44 < bsm117532> I've had a lot of discussions with clueless bankers and one thing that ALWAYS comes up is making their own blockchain, you know, so they can control it.
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06:48 < gmaxwell> much like 'cow clicker'[1] -- people seemed to not get the satire, which seems to continually irritate bluematt; much as it did the creator of cowclicker.   [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cow_Clicker
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06:48 < fluffypony> TIL
06:49  * nsh smiles
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06:52 < koshii> win 35
06:54 < fluffypony> 'when addressing a complaint by a fan who felt the game was no longer fun after the cow rapture, Bogost responded that "it wasn't very fun before."'
06:54  * fluffypony can't wait for the altcoinpocalypse and the impending dev rapture
06:57 < gmaxwell> Nor can I, this morning's fun-- someone arguing earnestly on the PHC mailing list that one second POW verification times are acceptable for cryptocurrency: http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.security.phc/2707 (I responded)
06:58 < fluffypony> oh I saw andytoshi reply to a post about that on BTCT, not sure if it was the same guy
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07:01 < gmaxwell> oh yea?
07:01 < fluffypony> lemme find it
07:02 < fluffypony> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1009710.0
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07:08 < kanzure> i wonder if bankers have just not been talking with software people, ever.
07:08 < nsh> is the 70k ver/s @ 3.2Ghz for secp256k1 for a single physical core, or whatever is average for a desktop CPU these days?
07:08 < kanzure> because i don't remember them asking "can i make my own database?"
07:08 < nsh> ( gmaxwell )
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07:13 < BlueMatt> gmaxwell: yup, pretty muc
07:13 < BlueMatt> h
07:14 < gmaxwell> kanzure: doesn't matter if they have; to the extent that have anyone competent is likely to have said "we don't know" a lot; whereas anyone clueless was absolutely certian. Unable to judge the relative qualifications, who would you listen to? (uh okay, maybe you still wouldn't-- but think typical banker here)
07:17 < gmaxwell> nsh: thats a quad-core number.
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07:19 < gmaxwell> hm. it's also a bit high. I am wondering where I got it from. benching 45k/sec here right now.
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07:19 < gmaxwell> I'm probably tained by sipa's batch verification speeds.
07:20  * nsh nods
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07:21 < gmaxwell> 58k now, when actually compiled with all the wizbangs.
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07:22 < gmaxwell> meh, should have checked the number before posting though it's not technical incorrect if including the batch schnorr stuff.
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07:30 < nsh> doesn't really affect the illustrative purpose of the figure for the post
07:31 < gmaxwell> nah, I feel bad though. it's also not wrong enough that its worth correcting.
07:31  * nsh nods
07:32 < nsh> is there any theoretical understanding of how the quality of approximation-freeness results from the construction of a hash function?
07:33 < bsm117532> @kanzure bankers have not been talking with software people, ever.  Software people are second or third class employees in India who make websites on command.
07:33 < gmaxwell> not really, it hasn't been a strong objective elsewhere, we're somewhat lucky. If the hash-function has strong diffusion in every round then that probably helps a lot; but I could certantly imagine an otherwise reasonable hashfunction existing that only had strong diffusion at the first and last round.
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07:34  * nsh nods
07:37 < nsh> but i think diffusion itself could be amenable to a more nuanced (relative) definition and treatment. the diffusion of data relative under some transformation of a space relative to a particular structure may actually be more or less static or even convergent relative to some other structure that may have a nontrivial but useful relationship to the first structure
07:37 < nsh> s/data relative under/data under/
07:38 < nsh> (e.g. XLS attacks on AES exploit (but not very well) the fact that the diffusion of the round does not affect the over-determination when expressed as a system of simultaneous linear or low-order polynomial equations)
07:40 < nsh> ( http://www.isg.rhul.ac.uk/~sean/crypto.pdf )
07:41 < nsh> and it may be more problematic in the context of hashing than block ciphers
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08:06 < kanzure> hmm https://github.com/Z3Prover/z3/blob/29606b5179f76783ffb0c2ca0ed9d614847064b3/examples/c/test_capi.c#L678
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14:13 < kanzure> .tw https://twitter.com/hashbreaker/status/584000738860339200
14:13 < yoleaux> At NIST PQ workshop, NSA crypto team gives talk "improving" DH: (1) Make it fragile against any reuse of keys. (2) Send Bob your RNG output. (@hashbreaker)
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14:22 < gmaxwell> I'd like to know the snark-reduced version of that, like ... wtf were they suggesting that made it key reuse vulnerable?!
14:22 < gmaxwell> PQ I assume means "post quantum"
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17:25 < zooko> Wow, this is an interesting paper arguing that if you're a miner on the bitcoin network today, you can increase revenue by 2% if you omit all txns.
17:25 < justanotheruser> zooko: what, because you have a 2% higher orphan rate?
17:25 < justanotheruser> also, that sounds like a failing in properly choosing tx based on fee :P
17:25 < sipa> zooko: 2% seems high
17:27 < zooko> justanotheruser: I think that is what it is arguing.
17:28 < justanotheruser> 25btc per mb*2% = 0.0005btc per kb fee needed in addition to make it profitable
17:29 < zooko> https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/#inbox?compose=14c81166fb498f97
17:29 < zooko> oops
17:30 < zooko> ftp://ftp.gate.cnrs.fr/RePEc/2014/1412.pdf
17:30 < zooko> HT Marie Vasek
17:30 < kanzure> you expect me to believe that zooko uses gmail?
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17:32 < justanotheruser> how else is he supposed to have a human-meaningful identity that is secure?
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17:32 < phantomcircuit> zooko, they're just arguing that larger blocks have a higher orphan rate right?
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17:48 < zooko> phantomcircuit: I'm not 100% sure what the argument is...
17:50 < phantomcircuit> zooko, yeah it is
17:50 < phantomcircuit> "When pro cessing transactions in a blo ck, a miner increases his reward but alsodecreases his probability to earn any reward b ecause the time needed for his block to reach consensus dep ends on its size. "
17:51 < phantomcircuit> zooko, that's old and boring and there are solutions which roughly fix this
17:51 < phantomcircuit> see https://github.com/TheBlueMatt/RelayNode
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18:16 < bramc> Even sending off to the relay network takes some amount of time. Transaction fees being effectively zero is not a good thing.
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18:17 < instagibbs> worst case is that fees get bumped to match orphan risk. Not a crisis.
18:18 < gmaxwell> zooko: the numbers in that paper are pure BS.
18:19 < gmaxwell> it's based off the "decker" numbers which are from measurements in 2012 and don't reflect the current state of technology.
18:20 < gmaxwell> bramc: relay network sending a block, if txn are already preforwarded takes sending one or two packets.
18:20 < phantomcircuit> bramc, if you run a relay node locally it doesn't
18:20 < bramc> gmaxwell, Oh right, that does mostly fix it
18:20 < gmaxwell> relay node client.
18:21 < phantomcircuit> right just the client is enough
18:22 < gmaxwell> bramc: in any case, the decker numbers in that paper are prior to signature caching, prior to ultra prune, prior to removing several arbritary 100ms sleeps in the bitcoin networking code, and a dozen other performance improvements. So even without the relaynetwork client, they don't reflect the actual network behavior.
18:24 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, 10ms but yeah
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18:24 < gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: hm. You sure?
18:24 < phantomcircuit> pretty sure
18:25 < gmaxwell> speaking of that, we still have one related; I think the person working on it (Ashley has abandoned it)
18:26 < sipa> there were 100ms and 10ms ones
18:26 < phantomcircuit> no you're right it was 100
18:26 < sipa> long ago
18:26 < gmaxwell> we nitpicked it to death, alas (well the patch Ashley made a ton of very difficult to audit locking changes which I think are avoidable)
18:26 < sipa> not sure which are left, but at least one
18:26 < phantomcircuit> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/97f844dd95c54b0fe2f2a1bb006c74ff544ff125
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18:29 < phantomcircuit> sipa, i think the only way the networking thread sleeps is if it has nothing to do
18:29 < phantomcircuit> so that means average 50ms latency added to processing any incoming message
18:30 < gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: yes, see the pullreq by Ashley. replaces that control with a semaphore but it adds a bunch of prods to make it spin all over the code.
18:32 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, you know what the pr # is?
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18:33 < fanquake> 4230
18:34 < sipa> #bitcoin-dev
18:35 < gmaxwell> ^
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19:03 < gmaxwell> andytoshi: so now that rust 1.0 beta is out, have you updated all your rust code yet?
19:05 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, lol
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22:06 < phantomcircuit> bramc, for reference
22:06 < phantomcircuit> [2015-04-04 05:05:13+00] 0000000000000000083b0cb560b11e15716c62b0ae37ac826166923db4e2fcad recv'd, size 350675 with 1361 bytes on the wire
22:07 < phantomcircuit> that's just 2 ethernet frames
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--- Log closed Sat Apr 04 00:00:42 2015