--- Log opened Mon Apr 06 00:00:44 2015
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04:26 < rusty> Lightning Networks Part III is up.  A bit dryer than the other two, but if you got this far... http://rusty.ozlabs.org/?p=467
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04:51 < bedeho> rusty: This is a great write-up, will read through
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05:15 < CoinMuncher> Very much appreciated!   s/Hased/Hashed/
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08:57 < mkarrer_> Is a locktime > 0 standard (relayed)?
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08:59 < fluffypony> is #bitcoin-dev a better channel for this?
08:59 < fluffypony> :-P
08:59 < mkarrer_> will try it there
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15:54 < bsm117532> Who has read this before? http://fc15.ifca.ai/preproceedings/paper_101.pdf
15:54 < bsm117532> It's an idea that's been in the back of my head for a while.  They beat me to it.
15:55 < bsm117532> Basically, using a Directed Acyclic Graph instead of a chain (of blocks).
15:57 < phantomcircuit> bsm117532, there's no date on that paper
15:57 < phantomcircuit> i cant stand that
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15:58 < kanzure> "i only read papers that include their git commit id in their header"
15:59 < kanzure> but also, the url has some hints
15:59 < fluffypony> kanzure: I thought you only read papers transmitted to you via carrier pigeon or morse code?
16:00 -!- maraoz [~maraoz@43-161-16-190.fibertel.com.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
16:03 < bsm117532> Yes, see the top level URL, it seems to have been contributed to this conference: http://fc15.ifca.ai/
16:03 < bsm117532> In Puerto Rico.  I wish I had gone!
16:04 < bsm117532> I can't find it published anywhere else, I think it's probably still in preparation by the authors, I'll probably write them an email tonight, because I'm thinking of implementing this.
16:04 < andytoshi> it's from late 2014, it is stuff the GHOST people did to improve on GHOST, they presented at FC15 in PR in january
16:05 < andytoshi> i was there but didn't follow it; several other -wizards were who might have a better idea of it
16:05 < bsm117532> GHOST did not change from a chain/tree to a DAG, AFAIK, but if you have refs to the contrary...
16:06 < bsm117532> This paper specifically includes both GHOST and the DAG improvements.
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16:20 < bsm117532> Basically, each block has multiple parents, and you allow the same transaction to occur in multiple blocks.
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16:22 < bsm117532> With those two, you can basically throw blocks out as fast as you want, and make the software assemble them into a DAG (which they are anyway unless you have a time machine or there's a hash collision).  You wouldn't have orphans anymore, chain tips would track conflicting transactions instead, and non-conflicting transactions could be moved to another fork and re-mined into it.
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16:22 < bsm117532> There's a ton of advantages to this.  You could have a much faster block time, and put a serious dent in miner centralization.
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16:35 < Taek> bsm117532: you'd still need some way to limit the total transaction volume per minute
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16:36 < bsm117532> Of course.  I'm oversimplifying.
16:36 < moa> bsm117532: what limits number of chaintips being divergent?
16:36 < bsm117532> e.g. let each node decide for itself what the minimum difficulty it will accept/relay/mine on.
16:37 < bsm117532> moa: good question.  Been thinking about that, don't have a good answer right now.  What's bitcoin's limit on tracking orphans/alternate chains?
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16:37 < moa> seems like a DDOS issue also
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16:38 < bsm117532> It's a DDoS of mined blocks, yes.  So it's an expensive DDoS that requires mining hardware...
16:38 < moa> not if mined blocks can have diff=1
16:38 < Taek> It might be good to pair this concept with something like difficulty-per-kb
16:39 < bsm117532> No node would accept or relay those.  I'm thinking each node would evaluate for itself what the hashrate is (with a fast hashrate it's easy and accurate) and advertise what it will accept.
16:39 < Taek> I'm pretty sure that would cause consensus risk
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16:39 < Taek> you'd need a global rule determining which blocks were acceptable
16:39 < moa> and then you're back into longest chain is best so what else do you need to track?
16:40 < bsm117532> Taek most difficult chain is best.
16:40 < moa> it is an interesting approach though
16:41 < moa> different latitdue
16:41 < bsm117532> I sat down last night to start implementing this, got slightly discouraged by the depth of the required changes, and found this paper today...
16:42 < Taek> bsm117532: 'most difficult chain is best' doesn't help you if you've decided to ignore blocks smaller than diff=X, but the longest chain contains those blocks
16:42 < Taek> or rather, as a miner you get put at a disadvantage for ignoring them
16:43 < bsm117532> Taek: depends on how you combine difficulty from two blocks.  If you do it such that D(x)+D(y) = 2*D(x) then the miner could have produced a block of the same difficulty in twice the time.
16:43 < bsm117532> One can imagine other ways to combine it...
16:44 < Taek> where D(x) < D(y) ?
16:44 < bsm117532> D(x)=D(y) is 1/hashrate for the miner.
16:44 < Taek> hmm
16:44 < bsm117532> Point is, miner would gain no advantage by throwing blocks out twice as fast with half the difficulty.
16:45 < bsm117532> This part my idea is not fully fleshed out... not sure how much overlaps with the above paper...
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16:46 < Taek> sorry if I'm misunderstanding something but having 2x the blocks might be an advantage if you know a minority of your competition can't keep up with the bandwidth
16:47 < bsm117532> Yes.  The block rate becomes a dynamic parameter that reflects the bandwidth of participants.
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16:48 < moa> and issuance?
16:49 < bsm117532> mao you mean coinbase reward?  Would have to change obviously.  A fixed target block rate might be desirable anyway for that reason unless one came up with a different issuance scheme.
16:50 < moa> well difficulty/block rate/issuacne are all coupled in btc
16:51 < bsm117532> Let's just be really dumb about it and say you get a block reward proportional to the difficulty of the block you mined.
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16:51 < Taek> that sounds reasonable enough to me
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16:51 < bsm117532> That reward would grow in time with the hashrate but...
16:51 < moa> sounds exactly like hashcash
16:52 < bsm117532> Except for the DAG part...
16:52 < Taek> well, you'd still have an adjustor. It would just tally the total weight of the blockchain every X work and determine what the new reward per work is
16:52 < moa> yeah i meant in the more hashes=morecashes sense
16:53 < Taek> and then you throw on an extra limit that says blocks can have at most Xkb per work, and then gets retargeted at the same itme
16:53 < Taek> *time
16:53 < bsm117532> I really dislike having the network need consensus on the adjustment.  If we got rid of orphans like this, each node can make his own decisions about what difficulty he will take, and adjust it as he sees fit.  Most difficult chain still wins.
16:54 < Taek> with having a specific attack in mind, that just seems like something that would favor more powerful miners
16:54 < bsm117532> Needing consensus on the target brings clocks into the game.
16:54 < Taek> yes the reliance on clocks is unfortunate
16:55 < bsm117532> Taek: yes, that's why I mentioned that this proposal for the block reward was "dumb"
16:55 < moa> i think it is fundamental isn't it?
16:56 < moa> as in unavoidable
16:56 < Taek> moa: I don't see why it would be fundamentally necessary
16:56 < bsm117532> No, Satoshi conflated issuance and consensus. I could premine all coins and distribute them a different way if I wanted to.
16:57 < moa> seem to recall that from some previous analysis but forget the chain of reasoning ...
16:57 < moa> would need to revisit
16:58 < bsm117532> Mind you, I think that conflation was a good idea for initial distribution, but they're logically separate things.  I think it also gave a lot of people the terrible idea that this "mining" activity was somehow "generating" value.
16:58 < moa> distributed timestamp server
16:59 < bsm117532> What about them?
16:59 < moa> that's the clock in the game
17:00 < bsm117532> There is no distributed timestamp server in bitcoin.
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17:01 < phantomcircuit> bsm117532, there sort of is
17:01 < bsm117532> I'd say it the other way, bitcoin *is* a (very poor) distributed timestamp server.
17:02 < bsm117532> but it doesn't use one external to itself.  timestamps come from node clocks.
17:02 < moa> it is very distributed timestamp server ... best at what it does
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17:03 < bsm117532> A DAG (or chain) allows you to time/normal order transactions without actually using a clock.
17:04 < bsm117532> I'd rather see one of two things: (1) no clocks at all in the consensus or (2) push the limits on clocks to get NTP-level resolution.
17:05 < bsm117532> But these arbitrary rules like 2-week retargets, 100 blocks to spend coinbases, etc. are totally arbitrary and are attempting to solve a different problem, that should probably be solved in a better way.
17:05 < moa> well the 'clock' is the sequential ordering of transactions innto hashed blocks, the node timestamps are not the 'clock'
17:06 < bsm117532> The only clock that matters is: did transaction A come in a block before transaction B?  And the only way time actually comes into that is the retarget calculation, which uses the timestamps in the blocks.
17:07 < bsm117532> Which could be entirely fudged...
17:07 < moa> not really
17:07 < bsm117532> Up to yet more arbitrary limits, they can.
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17:08 < moa> except it has never been done
17:09 < bsm117532> You haven't been paying attention to the altcoins, I see...  ;-)  (Also, never been done != can't be done)
17:09 < moa> i witnessed the first timewarp attack ... on namecoin
17:10 < moa> :)
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17:10 < moa> ;)
17:10 < bsm117532> Anyway I'm getting off topic.  Screwing with difficulty adjustments is a separate topic from using a DAG instead of a chain.  ;-)
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17:11 < moa> arguably DAG might be off-topic unless you have a concrete proposal
17:12 < moa> seems like lots of loose chain tips to tidy up
17:12 < bsm117532> moa: See the above paper.  ;-)  I was reluctant to bring it up until I found this paper... http://fc15.ifca.ai/preproceedings/paper_101.pdf
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