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02:51 < lmatteis> hello. has anybody read this paper on a concept they refer to as Proof Of Bandwidth https://www.petsymposium.org/2014/papers/Ghosh.pdf
02:51 < lmatteis> i'm unsure i grasp the concept entirely
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02:52 < lmatteis> that is, with bitcoin, i can independently verify the work done; i simply check the hash
02:52 < lmatteis> with bandwidth, how is that possible?
02:53 < gmaxwell> I got the author on HN
02:53 < gmaxwell> basically: the system provides no strong security, at leats not in a sense that would be reconizable to us.
02:53 < gmaxwell> lemme see if I can find the thread.
02:54 < gmaxwell> lmatteis: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7850492
02:56 < lmatteis> gmaxwell: thanks
02:57 < gmaxwell> thanks for asking a question with a simple cache hit for an answer!
02:57 < lmatteis> cache of your mind? :)
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02:58 < gmaxwell> I see so many things its sometimes a crapshoot if I remember reviewing and responding to something previously.
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02:59 < lmatteis> i'm looking for a subject for my BSc thesis - have you ever thought about decentralized name resolutions? i've had this thought for a couple of weeks (perhaps subject of my thesis) where peers collectively compete to obtain a name (instead of first one first get typical scenario of DNS)
03:00 < lmatteis> or namecoin
03:01 < lmatteis> however, i need the *competing* part to be useful for the network. and a proof of bandwidth would; peers would be incentivezed to share bandwidth in order to maintain their DNS
03:02 < gmaxwell> well we've talked in here about "the other obvious mechenism" there are two obvious modes for allocation of names, first come first serve; and a more continious auction. The latter could be argued to produce "better" resource allocation, but I think we all know it wouldn't esp since it would mean links would change owners out from under the people referring to them... but it would be interesting
03:02 < gmaxwell> to have a TLD working that way... maybe would actually be good for very generic names.
03:02 < lmatteis> well most users would resort to pub keys.. and all links would be that way
03:03 < lmatteis> only humans need the name part
03:03 < gmaxwell> e.g. "sex.market" would make sense perhaps, while "godhatesfags.markets" would end up owned by gay rights groups; which probably doesn't satisify any reasonable definition of efficient allocation. :)
03:04 < lmatteis> the idea is that if they contribute to the network enough, then they should be entitled to that name
03:04 < lmatteis> so ebay.com would want to share as much bandwitdh as possible to maintain its DNS
03:04 < lmatteis> and sorry, it's name (not DNS)
03:04 < lmatteis> *its
03:05 < gmaxwell> thats interesting, I don't think I've seen anyone suggesting that; and it's not obvious to me how it could be done (in a decenteralized totally consensus way)
03:06 < lmatteis> seems more democratic to me rather than a first come first serve
03:06 < lmatteis> especially in p2p systems
03:06 < fluffypony> lmatteis: I think the root problem is that a lot of these papers talk about "proof of" something without actually showing how they intend to "prove" it with some degree of mathematical certainty
03:07 < gmaxwell> lmatteis: e.g. do I just set up my own resolver and query the crap out of it for companyihate.communist so that their 'fair share' goes through the roof, and I drive them off their name?
03:08 < lmatteis> right :/
03:10 < gmaxwell> First come first serve is clearly bad in lots of ways (squatting for one); but it might be like democracy, which is often "dysfunction, inefficient, and unfair, but less so than the alternatives"
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03:12 < fluffypony> there's a great comment by herzmeister I read the other day
03:12 < fluffypony> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1007155.msg10938907#msg10938907
03:12 < fluffypony> it was in response to some comment about "proof of activity" -
03:12 < fluffypony> "Except it isn't a "proof". Proof-of-activity, proof-of-resource, proof-of-storage or similar are all misnomers. There can't be "proof" of these things, all of these can be forged; only spent CPU power can algorithmically be proven because it boils down to pure physical entropy at the end of the day. Also MaidSafe use the term proof-of-resource but in reality their security mechanism is a node-ranking system which does introduce a
03:12 < fluffypony>  degree of trust."
03:14 < gmaxwell> Part of the problem is that the blackbox abstraction's we need to deal with the complexity of the world fail us.  If your proof-of-x were actually that, perhaps you'd have the properties you want.  But "proof of X" is name, not a mathmatical simplification of what it actually is, not its 'true name'.
03:15 < gmaxwell> Don't worry we'll soon solve all these problems with proof-of-integrity, proof-of-competence, and proof-of-conscientious-research
03:16 < lmatteis> eheh
03:16 < fluffypony> proof-of-competence would be great
03:16 < gmaxwell> it's probably no good without the others!
03:17 < gmaxwell> It's like the superhuman AI in a box, in the nightmares of the lesswrongers, ... you'd rather it not be so smart. If it's smart then you'll never notice as it stabs you in the back. Dumber would be less helpful; but also less dangerous. :)
03:20 < lmatteis> but i mean, couldn't PoW be used for the naming scheme? all the PoW does is it reaches consensus. perhaps the consensus can be about "user X shared N gb" rather than transactions
03:21 < lmatteis> but i guess transactions are simple to verify (just look at your local db) while "user X shared N gb" it's almost impossible to verify
03:23 < Luke-Jr> technically proof-of-work can be faked to. with significant luck. <.<
03:24 < Luke-Jr> too*
03:24 < lmatteis> (sorry, just brainstorming)
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03:25 < lmatteis> what if, to verify that "user X shared N gb" you need an approval from Y amount of different peers
03:25 < lmatteis> with different IPs :)
03:25 < lmatteis> or! different peers that performed a PoW, so they can't collude
03:27 < lmatteis> so (i) an initial PoW to reach consensus on something and (ii) another PoW to prove that the something is true
03:27 < lmatteis> BAM
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03:27 < fluffypony> IP addresses are a poor identifier as they can easily be faked / acquired
03:27 < lmatteis> right, therefore 2nd PoW
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03:28 < fluffypony> ok so let's simplify it
03:29 < fluffypony> let's say we want to do "proof of storage"
03:29 < fluffypony> so I have a 20mb "block" that is stored by 4 other peers and I want to verify that they have it every day
03:29 < fluffypony> so every day I send a challenge-response to them based on a hash of that
03:29 < fluffypony> hashed with some random salt, of course
03:30 < fluffypony> and they do the same for me
03:30 < fluffypony> but I can just lie and say that the response is wrong
03:31 < fluffypony> or I can have a bunch of false nodes claiming to store that block and serving up false responses
03:31 < lmatteis> you simply ask the peer "have you stored 20mb?", he alone says yes, but he might be lying. so you ask other 30 peers if that's true. they can't all be lying because to generate their "yes" answer they worked a little in CPU time
03:31 < lmatteis> so it's more than i trust many peers kinda thing
03:31 < lmatteis> rather than technical TRUE
03:31 < fluffypony> ok so then you spread the load to like 100 peers
03:31 < lmatteis> because,as we discussed, you can't prove bandwidth/storage
03:31 < fluffypony> so instead of 20mb of data taking up 20mb it now takes up 2gb
03:32 < fluffypony> and requires a bunch of challenge-response bandwidth to verify it every day
03:32 < lmatteis> and wasting quadratic CPU power than what bitcoin is now lol
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03:33 < fluffypony> but your 20mb will be "safe"! :-P
03:34 < lmatteis> perhaps for small resources it could work. think of a P2P web with html files
03:34 < lmatteis> but again, it's a really hard problem
03:34 < fluffypony> ok so a p2p web
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03:34 < fluffypony> it's fine for *nodes that have that data* to verify each other
03:35 < fluffypony> but then when another peer wants to "browse" they have to receive the same data from N nodes to make sure they have the real data
03:36 < lmatteis> yeah
03:39 < gmaxwell> fluffypony: safe? hm? I'm just proxying your requests to bob. The information I'm not storing at all is totally safe with me.
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03:39 < fluffypony> gmaxwell: hence the inverted commas
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03:40 < fluffypony> this is easily solved Ethereum-style, just layer complexity until the unholy mess of broken cryptography appears to work...or Darkcoin-style, just create an over-incentivised central cabal
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03:40 < gmaxwell> lmatteis: everyone just gives bob half their income, bob keeps the only copy. Win win. :)
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05:59 < rusty> CoinMuncher: thanks, just read your typo fix in the logs.
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06:10 < tromp> hmm, even chess sites are mentioning side chains now http://en.chessbase.com/post/switch-side-chain-chess-revisited :-)
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10:46 < gmaxwell> What was that crazy "no primes" altcoin that uses the NIST 2^571 curve? Is it worth anything? shall we go confiscate all their coins? http://eprint.iacr.org/2015/310.pdf (kidding)
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10:51 < adam3us> gmaxwell: yeah:)  starts to help over 310bits apparently. (and the file name too?)
10:53 < gmaxwell> adam3us: I commented on it here http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/31rcuo/new_algorithm_for_the_discrete_logarithm_problem/cq4b52u?context=2
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11:07 < stonecoldpat> what made you pick the name nullc? ive seen u post a few times but didnt realise it was you :)
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11:12 < gmaxwell> it was a handle I used on bbses in the early 90s (well "Null Character", as in 0 in ascii, etc.); I've occasionally used it as a username on throwaway garbage sites that made me register... which fit reddit about 7 years ago.
11:12 < instagibbs> taking the stanford coursera crypto course meant I almost immediately figured out it doesn't apply to Bitcoin. I'm so proud my of basic knowledge.
11:13 < instagibbs> My throwaway is Nonec, go figure.
11:13 < zooko> I've just decided that my throwaway nick from now on is going to be ￾.
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11:14 < stonecoldpat> bbses is before my time, that looks awesome though
11:17 < zooko> I miss BBSes.
11:17 < zooko> And I miss Usenet.
11:17 < zooko> OI
11:18 < zooko> I'll probably live long enough to see them come again.
11:18 < sipa> after the apocalypse?
11:19 < zooko> Heh heh. No, I actually think that some things that were left behind by "technological progress" might then reappear in a new guise.
11:19 < zooko> For example, have you heard of yikyak?
11:19 < instagibbs> Local anon twitter, yep
11:19 < zooko> It is very different, of course, from BBSes, but it has in common something that disappeared with the advent of The Internet: a geographic or semi-arbitrary population.
11:23 < ajweiss> what you speak of generalizes beyond computers as well
11:24 < zooko> *nod*
11:24 < zooko> There is nothing new under the sun.
11:24 < ajweiss> the next great countercultural movement will be some kind of neoluddite thing
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11:31 < fluffypony> well we're all still using IRC
11:32 < fluffypony> and nothing's really changed since I first used IRC in 1995
11:33 < gmaxwell> fluffypony: services changed irc completely; in particualr there is no much less incentive to attack the networ in order to take control of a name or channel.
11:34 < fluffypony> oh man I forgot about that
11:35 < fluffypony> if I look hard enough I'm sure I can find some old BitchX channel takeover scripts on my old backups
11:35 < gwillen> gmaxwell: now all the incentive is to attack the network for lulz and because you hate people
11:36 < fluffypony> this also means I just identified what was so magical about DALnet back in the day, it was because I stopped chatting on DALnet pretty much when services became common on other networks
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11:41 < runeks__> Has anyone written any code implementing the Lighting Network stuff yet?
11:41 < sipa> not afaik
11:43 < runeks__> I guess it can't work until malleability is fixed anyway... perhaps that'
11:43 < StephenM347> runeks__: I've contacted Joseph Poon about working on this project, he said he's getting some BIPs together and then will get the repos set up. I too am interested in working on that project
11:43 < runeks__> s the reason for the lack of enthusiasm
11:44 < runeks__> StephenM347: Yeah it makes sense to focus on fixing malleability first
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11:44 < gmaxwell> runeks__: no, it has entirely different requirements; it requires particular kinds of malleability, malleability 'fixes' don't do anything for it.
11:44 < StephenM347> It basically makes malliebility a non issue, rather than fixing malliebeliity directly
11:45 < StephenM347> malleability*
11:45 < sipa> StephenM347: it requires malleability to be fixed beforehand, afaik
11:45 < sipa> (beyond what the current bip62 tries to accomplish)
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11:46 < gmaxwell> sipa: it requires things like not covering the txin under the signature.
11:46 < sipa> yes, indeed
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11:46 < StephenM347> sipa: If I understand correctly, the proposed sighash types, OP_NORMALIZEDTXID and OP_NOINPUT, basically make it so the signatures are still valid even if the txid itself changes
11:47 < StephenM347> bleh, not OP_
11:47 < runeks__> gmaxwell: You're talking about new hashtypes?
11:47 < gwillen> gmaxwell: but my understanding from http://rusty.ozlabs.org/?p=450 is that it _also_ needs malleability fixes
11:47 < gwillen> and that the whole bidirectional payment channel scheme depends on nonmalleability
11:49 < gmaxwell> runeks__: right.
11:50 < instagibbs> sighash_normalizedtxid won't do it? I was under impression it would
11:50 < instagibbs> (or whatever its called)
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11:51 < gmaxwell> Nope. I hate that "malleability 'fixes'" have become an idea-trap, because the idea is obscuring the root requirement.  Whats required is that changing a parent txn doesn't invalidate its children. This is not a prevention of malleability a la bip62.
11:53 < tdryja> Hi everyone - I've talked to several people about malleability stuff and it seems there's some consensus on what needs to be done, but wondered if I should write something up
11:53 < instagibbs> Guess I'll have to rewatch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyDE-aFqJTs&feature=youtu.be
11:53 < instagibbs> Same guys talking about the different kinds of malleability, and solutions
11:53 < runeks__> That Lightning stuff really sounds interesting though. They mention that with relative LOCKTIMEVERIFY, we can roll over channels, so extending their duration doesn't involve touching the blockchain. That's pretty awesome.
11:53 < tdryja> heh, hey that's me
11:53 < instagibbs> tdryja: speaking of the devil
11:53 < instagibbs> :)
11:54 < tdryja> yeah someone told me to come on here
11:54 < gmaxwell> tdryja: Your comment is without context. "what needs to be done" relative to what?
11:54 < StephenM347> runeks__: I agree, that is really great, I hope we can get a relative OP_CLTV
11:54 < tdryja> sorry - that we want a sighash type that doesn't sign input txids
11:55 < tdryja> or signs a normalized input txid, but that might be more annoying to add
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11:56 < gmaxwell> Okay please avoid calling that 'prevention of malleability' or anything that gets confused by that; it's an explicit and rather extreme form (e.g. if not used very carefully, e.g. with careful avoidance of address reuse it allows transaction reply) of permitted mallability.
11:56 < tdryja> Yeah, I agree
11:56 < tdryja> it doesn't prevent the txid from changing
11:56 < gmaxwell> er replay*
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11:57 < tdryja> in effect it allows for transaction malleability on the input side -- and if you re-use a pubkey it can be quite dangerous
11:57 < StephenM347> tdryja: wouldn't SIGHASH_NORMALIZEDTXID require looking up each transaction referenced by inputs and re-hashing them without scriptSigs? Is that the basic idea?
11:57 < gmaxwell> tdryja: right, so being able to mask sighash flags is something I just expect to accomidate in a successor checksig flag.
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11:57 < runeks__> tdryja: I, for one, would really like to see something written up. Won't you have to create a BIP eventually, anyway?
11:58 < tdryja> I can definitely write a BIP, I'm not sure how that process should work
11:58 < tdryja> I don't want to step on anyone's toes if there's work being done in that area already
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11:59 < tdryja> some people I've talked to said that new sighash types may be implemented along with schnorr sigs
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11:59 < StephenM347> tdryja: Isn't joseph poon working on a BIP?
11:59 < StephenM347> And while we're adding sighash flags, SIGHASH_WITHINPUTVALUE a good one to add...
11:59 < tdryja> yes but he's working on the relative lock I think
12:00 < gmaxwell> StephenM347: "SIGHASH_NORMALIZEDTXID" is probably a non-starer as it would require either a massive increas in size of the validation state, or at least a doubling (keeping two IDs with every txout), assuning there was only one kind of normalization. When a full node spends an output it has no clue about the full content of the original txout its spending.
12:00 < tdryja> gmaxwell - I agree on the normalized txid thing...
12:00 < gmaxwell> StephenM347: sighash flags cannot just be 'added'.
12:00 < tdryja> Initially I thought "oh, this is safer, people can't shoot themselves in the foot by re-using pubkeys if you have normalized input txids"
12:00 < StephenM347> gmaxwell: makes sense, SIGHASH_NORMALIZEDTXID probably isn't the best way to reference outputs.
12:01 < tdryja> but then looking at how it would have to be implemented, it's a pain
12:01 < StephenM347> gmaxwell: I know, I mean adding sighash flags via P3SH or a new type of OP_CHECKSIG via using one of the OP_NOPs
12:01 < gmaxwell> tdryja: it's just very expensive, I'm certantly sympathetic to it; it would be a big improvement over the massive footgun of masking the inputs; but it's just costly to do.
12:02 < tdryja> if the client software does the right thing, not signing your input can be used safely
12:03 < tdryja> the "right thing" being having only one output anywhere for a single pubkey
12:04 < StephenM347> You basically just have to make sure you don't send coins to the same address twice, and sighash_notxid or whatever is safe, right?
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12:04 < tdryja> Yes -- although even if you do send to the same address twice
12:04 < tdryja> well, one, spend from that address with a SIGHASH_ALL, which is safe
12:05 < tdryja> or use SIGHASH_NOINPUT, but spend the larger one first
12:05 < tdryja> then a few blocks later, spend the smaller one
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12:07 < gmaxwell> StephenM347: right but you cannot completely control other people's behavior.  It's not a reason to not support such a functionality-- there are things it can do that seem to have little to no alternative; but its quite fragile.
12:07 < gmaxwell> tdryja: can't help you if someone sends funds there weeks later. "I send your refund on the address I got on the blockchain.info"
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12:08 < tdryja> but if someone sends funds weeks later, just sweep them with a standard SIGHASH_ALL tx, right?
12:08 < gmaxwell> (and whats extra fun is that if all the inputs are masked like that, any byzantine trouble maker on the network can perform the replay. :( )
12:08 < StephenM347> gmaxwell: good point.
12:09 < tdryja> you're already done with the fancy stuff where you're spending non-confirmed multi-sig transactions
12:09 < tdryja> I figure if SIGHASH_NONE is in there, that's way more dangerous, to the point where I can't think of any use for it
12:10 < gmaxwell> tdryja: nah; some trouble maker replays your early transaction the instant the second payment is made. (and bonus: if the amounts aren't coincidently the same; the new one ends up with gigantic fees)
12:10 < tdryja> of course, dumb things being in bitcoin isn't an excuse for more dumb things to be added :)
12:10 < gmaxwell> tdryja: sighash_none is safe because its useless. :)
12:10 < tdryja> ahh, I see, yeah, if the new payment is larger than the old one, the replay works
12:11 < tdryja> ... possibly not even larger.
12:11 < StephenM347> And it just gives a big fee
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12:11 < tdryja> since you don't sign input amounts
12:11 < gmaxwell> could be smaller if its possible to add more inputs to the replayed transaction.
12:11  * helo goes on a sighash_none hunt
12:11 < gmaxwell> and if its actually larger you can get giant fees; for extra fast confirmation of the replay.
12:12 < tdryja> right, the miner could eat the difference
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12:12 < tdryja> and the miner would be in a great position to create that transaction as well
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12:13 < tdryja> it's certainly risky; once you've got that SIGHASH_NOINPUT transaction out there, you really don't want anyone to use the pubkey again... you'd have to treat it as if the private key were compromised
12:14 < StephenM347> But they can't change the outputs/destination of the coins, so even if someone does send you more coins to that address, they can just send the coins to you again (but get a bigger fee if they sent more)
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12:15 < StephenM347> Or, to wherever you sent them last time
12:16 < tdryja> True, but that fee could be a problem.  It's basically pushing risk onto users of bad software, whereas SIGHASH_NORMALIZED pushes more work onto all full nodes
12:16 < gmaxwell> Sure, they'll go to the same place, which is probably now a black hole. or at a very minimum totally confuses your software.  And it costs them nothing to do this, just a shell script pretty much.
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12:16 < gmaxwell> tdryja: it's not clear that the normalized stuff is equally (or sufficiently) general in any case, unless it has lots of flags, in which case the cost is astronomic.
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12:17 < StephenM347> So if SIGHASH_NOINPUT is too dangerous and SIGHASH_NORMALIZEDTXID is too complex, is there a better combination of data to sign?
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12:18 < gmaxwell> if the normalization is parameterizable then a verifier must track nearly all transactions (e.g. from 600 mb to 20GB for bitcoin currently); if its not parametrizable, you get lots of limits to when you could use it, e.g. can't use it for a parent transaction which is sighash_single-ish.
12:18 < gmaxwell> StephenM347: a reason to have this conversation; I don't know.
12:18 < tdryja> I personally don't think SIGHASH_NOINPUT is too dangerous; software can be aware of it and not allow spending to those addresses
12:19 < tdryja> (addresses which have already had a spend from them using NOINPUT)
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12:19 < StephenM347> tdryja: full node software can, not all software can keep track of that
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12:20 < gmaxwell> StephenM347: it's not that it's complex in terms of implementation; there are basically two choices: add to every utxo the normalized hash (~double the storage) but that only supports one normalization approach; or store the whole txn (maybe 40x the storage).
12:20 < gmaxwell> tdryja: thats costly to track (and racy too)
12:20 < tdryja> Right... maybe also don't allow export of those addresses?  have some like best-pracitces for use of SIGHASH_NOINPUT
12:20 < gmaxwell> Yea, thats more my thinking there.
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12:21 < gmaxwell> I mean, already if you use an 'address' in any way that the recipent didn't specify thats your own damn fault. "I burried the funds in a safe in your back yard, with the key set to a random segment of your DNA. What do you mean I didn't pay you?!"
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12:21 < tdryja> in the specific use case we've been working on, all the cases when you're using SIGHASH_NOINPUT is when you're spending a multisig address
12:21 < gmaxwell> But in practice people do crazzy stuff like that a rather lot. (in particular 'refunding' things to random ass scriptpubkeys they extracted from websites. :) )
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12:22 < tdryja> and when it's multisig, you really have no reason to tell anyone, "hey, send money to 3eXz..."
12:22 < gmaxwell> It's not a reason to not do it, but just something to think carefully about.
12:22 < tdryja> because it's not even your address, it's shared
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12:22 < gmaxwell> tdryja: they extract it out of block explorer websites.
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12:23 < tdryja> the address is certainly visible
12:23 < tdryja> but it would hopefully require a lot of work on the user's part to misuse it
12:24 < tdryja> sortof feels like people sending to 1A1z...
12:24 < StephenM347> But if someone does send money to it, they are sending coins to you and not following your directions on how to send the coins to you, so you probably shouldn't accept refunds given that way anyway
12:24 < gmaxwell> well that was generally the case for the network already, nowhere in bitcoin core can you easily extract the scriptpubkey for a transaction that pays you; unfortunately people put up websites that just display the data like its part of a transaction. :(  in any case; it would be useful to meditate to see if there is a form of the normalization which is more helpful.
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12:26 < tdryja> hmmm... a better normalized txid, that's an interesting idea
12:26 < gmaxwell> StephenM347: you shouldn't, indeed; but dumb things happen. (and today; people do accept payments made in crazy ways and expect them to work; in part because-- I think-- their mental model for this stuff is at the wrong layer. e.g. they expect things like "someone put N of my addresses in a multisig, why can't I see it? your software is shit" :))
12:26 < tdryja> yeah, most people think of "balances"
12:27 < tdryja> I did for a while when I first started looking in to bitcoin, mostly because there's a lot of software that uses the term
12:27 < tdryja> blockchain.info and such
12:27 < GreenIsMyPepper> (re-reading up thread) Minor pendant: a possible use for SIGHASH_NONE could be turning a mined 2-of-2 output into a 1-of-1 without disclosure of the privkey, but yeah it's de-facto useless. Perhaps using NOINPUT would be similarly unused by default clients
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12:28 < gmaxwell> sorry; many tried for years to get them to do something different, it's a totally broken model, but it's user friendly... and fits how people think it should work if they haven't worked through the details (like replay prevention).
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12:28 < gmaxwell> GreenIsMyPepper: I knew I was going to regret that exaggeration moments after sending it. Thanks, yea. still; the general point stands.
12:30 < tdryja> I think having weird opcodes and sighashes that most people never use is fine... there's lots of cool opcodes nobody uses today
12:30 < StephenM347> gmaxwell: Well, if we do get to add new sighash flags via P3SH or something similar in order to sign something other than the TXID, do you think the community would support adding the SIGHASH_WITHINPUTVALUE flag as well? (to more fully enable hardware wallets)
12:30 < sipa> like OP_MUL
12:31 < tdryja> sipa: OP_MASTROOT or something needs to be in there :)
12:31 < GreenIsMyPepper> If the fear is people will do stupid things with it, perhaps rename it to something scary sounding like OP_LOSEALLYOURMONEY :^)
12:31 < GreenIsMyPepper> err SIGHASH_
12:32 < StephenM347> sipa: is there a good use case for OP_MUL that you are thinking of? I know it's disabled, just wondering why you picked that one specifically
12:32 < tdryja> StephenM347: SIGHASH_WITHINPUTVALUE would check if it matches the amount of the output, and fail otherwise?
12:32 < instagibbs> OP_CHECKBALANCEONBCINFO
12:32 < sipa> StephenM347: it's a joke
12:32 < sipa> OP_X86
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12:33 < StephenM347> SIGHASH_WITHINPUTVALUE includes the input value, just like the previous scriptPubKey, is included in serializing for SignatureHash()
12:33 < tdryja> so you'd have to push another 8 bytes onto the stack before the checksig?
12:33 < StephenM347> tdryja: no, nothing on the stack
12:33 < tdryja> ahh
12:33 < StephenM347> it's a sighash flag, controls how the serialization is done for the signing
12:34 < sipa> tdryja: it just includes the txout value being spent in the sighash spending it
12:34 < tdryja> include the 8 bytes where the amount is specified
12:34 < tdryja> I get it
12:34 < sipa> tdryja: so that someone who does not know the txout being spent cannot accidentally sign over most of its value to fee
12:34 < StephenM347> Actually, SIGHASH_WITHINPUTVALUE could fix the problems with SIGHASH_NOINPUT
12:35 < tdryja> and if you somehow sign the wrong value, the whole signature is invalid
12:35 < StephenM347> tdryja: right
12:35 < sipa> indeed
12:36 < StephenM347> The problem with SIGHASH_NOINPUT is that if someone sends money to that scriptPubKey again, someone will be able to send it off to the same place it was sent before and possibly include a bigger miners fee. If you signed it with (SIGHASH_NOINPUT & SIGHASH_WITHINPUTVALUE) then it would only work if the exact same amount of coins were sent
12:37 < StephenM347> In which case, there wouldn't be a larger fee
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12:38 < StephenM347> And in 99% of the cases where someone sends coins to an already used address, it's probably going to be a different amount
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12:39 < tdryja> I agree - it's a good combo, seems like it'd make it a lot safer
12:39 < GreenIsMyPepper> The question is how something like that should be done
12:39 < GreenIsMyPepper> I prefer summing up the values, and appending it as part of the signature (since that way it can work well with anyonecanpay)
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12:41 < GreenIsMyPepper> if you include the input values as part of the signature individually, anyonecanpay with that new value sighash flag is a lot more difficult in certain situations (think lighthouse)
12:41 < GreenIsMyPepper> but perhaps that's not useful enough? not sure
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12:43 < GreenIsMyPepper> you could then enforce transaction fees with anyonecanpay
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12:44 < tdryja> ehhh... you can do that without adding them up
12:44 < tdryja> for anyonecanpay, include another output, with a script of like OP_1 or something
12:45 < tdryja> whoever mines it can get the coins; it's equivalent to a fee
12:45 < GreenIsMyPepper> hmm good point, never mind then!
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12:45 < StephenM347> GreenIsMyPepper: what would you be adding up to append as part of the signature?
12:46 < GreenIsMyPepper> StephenM347: the presumption would be the input values, but perhaps if miners can get their fees that's not necessary compared to just including the inputs individually
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12:47 < StephenM347> So you'd add up the values for all of the inputs and put the sum after the signature in each individual input? That seems worse for sighash_anyonecanpay
12:48 < GreenIsMyPepper> no, the sum would be after the entire transaction (yes it's dirty, but i was thinking in terms of anyonecanpay enforcement of miners fees, but if that's possible anyway, then yeah including each input's values as part of the signature is cleaner)
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15:45 < nsh> .wik weil descent
15:45 < yoleaux> "In mathematics, restriction of scalars (also known as "Weil restriction") is a functor which, for any finite extension of fields L/k and any algebraic variety X over L, produces another variety ResL/kX, defined over k." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weil_restriction
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16:14 < lechuga_> weil what do u kno
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18:20 < gmaxwell> nsh: go go completely inscrutible wikipedia articles on number theory.
18:20 < nsh> yeah :/
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18:24 < adam3us> gmaxwell: thats quite annoying.  a number of wikipedia articles used to make sense.  many have now been "fixed" by mathematicians gunking up with formalisms & greek symbols to the point that they are basically undecipherable.
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18:50 < kanzure> yes, articles tend to drift towards whatever content was already established in those industries
18:50 < kanzure> as opposed to wikipedia being a giant reboot button
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18:57 < adam3us> kanzure: they could at least not delete the plain english intuition version while they're "fixing" the page.
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19:04 < phantomcircuit> adam3us, but then how would they pretend to know all?
19:05 < kanzure> agreed
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20:08 < tromp> where does the name "kanzure" originate?
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20:44 < maaku> tromp: the pronounceable nym of the 47th avatar of a demon of unspeakable evil
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21:00 < rusty> Part IV: Summary.  http://rusty.ozlabs.org/?p=477  Nothing particularly useful for most #wizards I expect.
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21:01 < kanzure> tromp: well my 12 year old self was like "hey i should have a pseudonym so that i can always find my old stuff on the internet"... 12 year old me was not very bright.
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21:19 < justanotheruser> is kanzure just a string of letters that is pronouncable
21:23 < gmaxwell> kanzure: weird. all my usenet posts were anonymous, to such an extent that I couldn't find them (at least not with any reliablity) myself.
21:26 < phantomcircuit> kanzure, 13 year old me was probably just as (if not more) stupid
21:26 < phantomcircuit> but my handle is pretttty cool
21:27 < gmaxwell> most things I did under the nullc name are lost forever to BBSes (thank god).
21:29 < gwillen> rusty: fwiw your posts have been incredibly helpful to me
21:29 < gwillen> (on lightning)
21:31 < rusty> gwillen: thanks!  Actually, blame gmaxwell.  He started this "explaining bitcoin ideas clearly" stuff.  Not sure it'll catch on....
21:31 < gwillen> hahahahah. Well I sure hope it doe.
21:31 < gwillen> does.*
21:34 < kanzure> instead of usenet all my super-young posts were stuff like "what do you mean there isn't a mew under the truck?"
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