--- Log opened Wed Apr 08 00:00:46 2015
00:01 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
00:02 -!- orik [~orik@50-46-132-219.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
00:02 -!- Mably [~Mably@unaffiliated/mably] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
00:04 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@95.6.28.61] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
00:06 -!- kobud [wq@unaffiliated/fluffybunny] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
00:08 -!- hktud0 [wq@unaffiliated/fluffybunny] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
00:16 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
00:20 -!- Relos [~Relos@unaffiliated/relos] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
00:24 -!- phiche1 [~Adium@193.89.189.140] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
00:24 -!- phiche [~Adium@193.89.189.140] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
00:26 -!- p15 [~p15@111.193.177.180] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded]
00:26 -!- moa [~kiwigb@opentransactions/dev/moa] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
00:27 -!- p15 [~p15@182.50.108.30] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
00:27 -!- phiche [~Adium@193.89.189.140] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
00:27 -!- phiche1 [~Adium@193.89.189.140] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
00:27 -!- berndj [~berndj@azna.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
00:29 -!- berndj [~berndj@azna.co.za] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
00:31 -!- phiche [~Adium@193.89.189.140] has quit [Client Quit]
00:39 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
00:42 -!- phiche [~Adium@193.89.189.140] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
00:47 -!- bramc [~bram@99-75-88-206.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep]
00:59 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
01:04 -!- andy-logbot [~bitcoin--@wpsoftware.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
01:05 -!- andy-logbot [~bitcoin--@wpsoftware.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
01:05  * andy-logbot is logging
01:05 -!- Mably [56401ec3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.86.64.30.195] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
01:10 -!- CoinMuncher [~jannes@178.132.211.90] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
01:10 -!- koshii [~0@ppp-27-55-225-65.revip3.asianet.co.th] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
01:12 -!- koshii [~0@ppp-27-55-205-128.revip3.asianet.co.th] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
01:12 -!- phiche [~Adium@193.89.189.140] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
01:12 -!- phiche [~Adium@193.89.189.140] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
01:13 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
01:16 -!- vonzipper [sid77971@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-oxoziwergrzeegve] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
01:16 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
01:17 -!- vonzipper [sid77971@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-nutnjbpqavokhmuf] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
01:25 -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@239-196-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
01:33 -!- jhogan42 [~textual@152.179.131.166] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com]
01:34 -!- lclc [~lucas@unaffiliated/lclc] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
01:36 -!- rubensayshi [~ruben@91.206.81.13] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
01:37 -!- jhogan42 [~jhogan42@152.179.131.166] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
01:44 -!- raizor is now known as raiz
01:45 -!- priidu [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
01:46 -!- melvster [~melvster@ip-86-49-18-198.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
01:50 -!- melvster [~melvster@ip-86-49-18-198.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
01:51 -!- phiche [~Adium@193.89.189.140] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
01:52 -!- phiche [~Adium@193.89.191.209] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
01:59 -!- koshii [~0@ppp-27-55-205-128.revip3.asianet.co.th] has quit [Quit: leaving]
01:59 -!- p15 [~p15@182.50.108.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
02:00 -!- Starduster [~guest@unaffiliated/starduster] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
02:00 -!- Starduster [~guest@unaffiliated/starduster] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
02:03 -!- cdecker [~cdecker@pc-10367.ethz.ch] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
02:03 -!- binaryatrocity_ [~atr0phy.n@2606:df00:3:0:216:3cff:fe68:30d9] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
02:03 -!- harrow [~harrow@2607:5300:100:200::160d] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
02:03 -!- binaryatrocity [~atr0phy.n@unaffiliated/br4n] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
02:04 -!- koshii [~0@cm-171-100-165-124.revip10.asianet.co.th] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
02:06 -!- harrow [~harrow@105.ip-167-114-152.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
02:07 -!- LeMiner [~LeMiner@5ED1AFBF.cm-7-2c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Changing host]
02:07 -!- LeMiner [~LeMiner@unaffiliated/leminer] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
02:14 -!- p15 [~p15@77.247.178.103] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
02:14 -!- moa [~kiwigb@opentransactions/dev/moa] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
02:35 -!- bramc [~bram@99-75-88-206.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
02:37 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
02:39 -!- jgarzik [~jgarzik@unaffiliated/jgarzik] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
02:40 -!- jgarzik [~jgarzik@unaffiliated/jgarzik] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
02:41 -!- moa [~kiwigb@opentransactions/dev/moa] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
02:43 < gmaxwell> [system failure porn] https://medium.com/backchannel/how-technology-led-a-hospital-to-give-a-patient-38-times-his-dosage-ded7b3688558
02:43 -!- jhogan42 [~jhogan42@152.179.131.166] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com]
02:44 -!- luktgf [~vfbtgn@188.25.37.108] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
02:47 -!- iugfhvybu [~vfbtgn@188.27.88.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
02:50 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
02:52 -!- luktgf [~vfbtgn@188.25.37.108] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
03:00 -!- b_lumenkraft [~b_lumenkr@unaffiliated/b-lumenkraft/x-4457406] has quit [Quit: b_lumenkraft]
03:01 < moa> "Installing a system like Epic is not like installing an operating system on your laptop" ... can only wonder what coder calls a medical system Epic?
03:01 < moa> sounds like an altchain dev
03:02 < wumpus> I doubt it's a coder making that decision, it's probably some acronym from a marketing guy
03:03 < moa> heh
03:03 -!- adams_ [sid73416@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gklerwpozhtjlkff] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
03:03 -!- GreenIsMyPepper [~GreenIsMy@altcoins.are-on-my.ignorelist.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
03:05 -!- GreenIsMyPepper [~GreenIsMy@altcoins.are-on-my.ignorelist.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
03:06 -!- luktgf [~vfbtgn@188.27.93.165] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
03:06 -!- adams_ [sid73416@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-scfcnseoxyzuixjo] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
03:09 < fluffypony> heh
03:09  * fluffypony starts Epicoin and credits moa 
03:10 < moa> fluffypony: no premining Epics
03:10 < fluffypony> but how will we fund it without a massive premine!
03:17 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@95.6.28.61] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
03:19 -!- jtimon [~quassel@189.Red-83-59-238.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
03:32 -!- bramc [~bram@99-75-88-206.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep]
03:32 -!- lclc [~lucas@unaffiliated/lclc] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
03:34 -!- b_lumenkraft [~b_lumenkr@unaffiliated/b-lumenkraft/x-4457406] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
03:38 -!- Emcy [~MC@cpc3-swan1-0-0-cust996.7-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
03:38 -!- Emcy [~MC@cpc3-swan1-0-0-cust996.7-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Changing host]
03:38 -!- Emcy [~MC@unaffiliated/mc1984] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
03:39 -!- priidu [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
03:46 -!- priidu [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
03:47 -!- priidu [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
03:50 -!- bsm117532 [~bsm117532@static-108-21-236-13.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
04:05 -!- jhogan42 [~jhogan42@152.179.131.166] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
04:05 < kanzure> moa: epic is a heathcare company that causes billions of deaths per year
04:07 -!- moa [~kiwigb@opentransactions/dev/moa] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
04:15 -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@239-196-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
04:18 -!- lmatteis [uid3300@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-yxnzngbipctpzxpb] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
04:26 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
04:33 -!- lclc [~lucas@unaffiliated/lclc] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
04:33 -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@239-196-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
04:39 -!- bramc [~bram@99-75-88-206.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
04:44 -!- hearn [~mike@178.197.231.150] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
04:47 < Eliel> I suppose you can call that epic then
04:47 -!- antgreen [~user@CPE687f74122463-CM84948c2e0610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
04:50 -!- satwood2 [~satwo@unaffiliated/satwo] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
04:50 -!- thrasher` [~thrasher@27-33-27-140.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
04:50 -!- thrasher` [~thrasher@27-33-27-140.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
04:53 -!- satwo_ [~satwo@unaffiliated/satwo] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
04:53 -!- Quanttek [~quassel@ip1f1171b4.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
04:58 -!- prodatalab__ [~prodatala@2602:306:ceef:a750:9192:e442:37ab:36c7] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
05:03 -!- prodatalab [~prodatala@2602:306:ceef:a750:90b2:f44b:ec5e:383b] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
05:12 -!- sturles [~sturles@unaffiliated/sturles] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
05:13 < sturles> Does anyone know which wallet software sends the change from a transaction back to one of the addresses used for inputs?  Example: http://www.walletexplorer.com/txid/80702a84562fb0cbf2bcea46c9a644bc2c721b0f4c01d3de8dfb8b6447788252
05:13 < wumpus> some of the android wallets do
05:15 < sturles> Only Android?  I weakly recall an early iPhone wallet doing this, and the developer chose not to fix the problem because Apple had banned Bitcoin wallet apps by then.
05:15 < sturles> Do you know which Android wallets are affected?
05:16 < sturles> I can't remember the name of the iPhone wallet either.
05:17 < wumpus> I certainly don't know if those are the only ones, and I don't know which ones specifically, but I know it was quite common there at some point
05:17 < sturles> Trying to nail a credit card scammer.  Any information would be helpful.  I know who it is, just want to give the Police some more pointers to where they can secure proof.
05:20 < stonecoldpat> I know Hive uses the same bitcoin address for everything
05:20 < stonecoldpat> so i imagine that also uses the same address for change as well
05:25 -!- Crowley2k [~Crowley2k@93.113.62.93] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
05:25 < sturles> Hive!?  Isn't Hive a new-ish wallet?
05:25 < Luke-Jr> sturles: pretty sure speculation can't be considered proof
05:26 < Luke-Jr> at least that behaviour is easily imitatable
05:26 -!- llllllllll [~lllllllll@6d482698.ftth.concepts.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
05:27 < stonecoldpat> I have no idea when it was made sorry :(
05:30 < sturles> Luke-Jr: Yep, but if the Police know they should be looking for e.g. an iPhone he used at the end of December 2013, it may help them find the actual wallet used.  This would be proof.
05:31 < sturles> I already have more than enough proof for them to make him a visit.
05:31 -!- bramc [~bram@99-75-88-206.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep]
05:38 -!- satwood2 [~satwo@unaffiliated/satwo] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
05:40 < hearn> sturles: old multibit does that
05:40 < hearn> sturles: multibit HD does not, however that is still (!) in beta
05:40 -!- StephenM347 [~stephenm3@static-64-223-246-218.port.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
05:42 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:304:cff8:1580:f97e:41b5:8940:f618] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
05:46 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
05:51 -!- Relos [~Relos@unaffiliated/relos] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
05:54 -!- nemild [~nemild@cpe-74-72-44-76.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
05:55 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@95.6.28.61] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
05:55 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@95.6.28.61] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
05:55 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@95.6.28.61] has quit [Client Quit]
05:56 -!- StephenM347 [~stephenm3@static-64-223-246-218.port.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
05:59 -!- maraoz [~maraoz@43-161-16-190.fibertel.com.ar] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
06:04 -!- hearn_ [~mike@185.25.95.132] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
06:04 -!- hearn [~mike@178.197.231.150] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
06:08 -!- bit2017 [~linker@115.79.43.208] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
06:11 -!- nivah [~linker@115.79.55.177] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
06:14 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
06:15 -!- Profreid [~Profreitt@179.43.155.2] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
06:17 -!- cdecker [~cdecker@pc-10367.ethz.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
06:17 -!- Crowley2k [~Crowley2k@93.113.62.93] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
06:18 -!- bsm117532 [~bsm117532@static-108-21-236-13.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
06:23 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
06:23 -!- c0rw|sleep is now known as c0rw1n
06:33 -!- hearn_ is now known as hearn
06:35 -!- Crowley2k [~Crowley2k@93.113.62.93] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
06:42 -!- jhogan42 [~jhogan42@152.179.131.166] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
06:44 -!- hearn [~mike@185.25.95.132] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
06:44 -!- adam3us [~Adium@host-92-19-88-129.as13285.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
06:51 -!- Burrito [~Burrito@unaffiliated/burrito] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
06:55 -!- nemild [~nemild@cpe-74-72-44-76.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: nemild]
07:02 -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@239-196-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
07:03 -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@239-196-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
07:03 -!- waxwing [~waxwing@62.205.214.125] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
07:04 -!- user7779078 [~user77790@ool-4a5987f1.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
07:08 -!- bit2017 [~linker@115.79.43.208] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
07:10 -!- waxwing [~waxwing@62.205.214.125] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
07:15 -!- hearn [~mike@185.25.95.132] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
07:19 -!- paveljanik [~paveljani@unaffiliated/paveljanik] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
07:22 -!- nemild [~nemild@104.207.195.34] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
07:22 -!- Crowley3k [~Crowley2k@93.113.62.93] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
07:26 -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
07:26 -!- Crowley2k [~Crowley2k@93.113.62.93] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
07:32 -!- Crowley3k [~Crowley2k@93.113.62.93] has quit [Read error: No route to host]
07:33 -!- Crowley2k [~Crowley2k@93.113.62.93] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
07:36 -!- cdecker [~cdecker@pc-10367.ethz.ch] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
07:42 -!- zooko [~user@c-75-70-204-109.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
07:45 -!- zooko` [~user@c-75-70-204-109.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
07:47 -!- zooko [~user@c-75-70-204-109.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
07:47 -!- Crowley2k [~Crowley2k@93.113.62.93] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
07:49 -!- arubi [~ese168@unaffiliated/arubi] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
07:50 -!- GAit [~lnahum@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
07:52 -!- davispuh [~quassel@212.93.114.156] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
07:52 -!- GAit [~lnahum@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
07:57 -!- grandmaster [dansmith3@knows.the.cops.are.investigat.in] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
07:57 -!- StephenM347 [~stephenm3@static-64-223-246-218.port.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
08:03 -!- DrWatriguez is now known as DrWat
08:04 -!- maraoz [~maraoz@43-161-16-190.fibertel.com.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
08:06 -!- b_lumenkraft [~b_lumenkr@unaffiliated/b-lumenkraft/x-4457406] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
08:06 -!- b_lumenkraft [~b_lumenkr@unaffiliated/b-lumenkraft/x-4457406] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
08:09 -!- grandmaster [dansmith3@knows.the.cops.are.investigat.in] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
08:12 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
08:13 -!- zooko` [~user@c-75-70-204-109.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
08:15 -!- Quanttek [~quassel@ip1f1171b4.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
08:16 -!- maraoz [~maraoz@43-161-16-190.fibertel.com.ar] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
08:16 -!- zooko` [~user@184-96-103-97.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
08:19 < fluffypony> http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/31vi0t/theymos_friends_as_mods_here/cq5dni6
08:19 < fluffypony> "Exactly. Decentralize! Check out the decentralized Reddit
08:19 < fluffypony> http://tips.coinawesome.com/recent
08:19 < fluffypony> URL's and tags on-blockchain!"
08:19 < fluffypony> wtf. who thought that was a good idea.
08:20 -!- nivah [~linker@42.116.102.33] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
08:21 -!- zooko` is now known as zooko
08:25 -!- zooko [~user@184-96-103-97.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
08:25 -!- zooko [~user@184-96-103-97.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
08:33 -!- bramc [~bram@99-75-88-206.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
08:34 -!- user7779078 [~user77790@ool-4a5987f1.dyn.optonline.net] has quit []
08:34 -!- zooko` [~user@c-75-70-204-109.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
08:36 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
08:36 -!- zooko [~user@184-96-103-97.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Disconnected by services]
08:36 -!- zooko` is now known as zooko
08:37 -!- zooko` [~user@c-75-70-204-109.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
08:37 -!- zooko` [~user@c-75-70-204-109.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
08:38 -!- unlord_ is now known as unlord
08:38 -!- zooko [~user@c-75-70-204-109.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit]
08:38 -!- zooko [~user@c-75-70-204-109.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
08:39 -!- phiche [~Adium@193.89.191.209] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
08:46 -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@239-196-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
08:51 -!- Dizzle [~Dizzle@108-94-37-10.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
08:52 -!- binaryatrocity_ is now known as binaryatrocity
08:52 -!- binaryatrocity [~atr0phy.n@2606:df00:3:0:216:3cff:fe68:30d9] has quit [Changing host]
08:52 -!- binaryatrocity [~atr0phy.n@unaffiliated/br4n] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
09:00 -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@239-196-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
09:02 -!- lclc [~lucas@unaffiliated/lclc] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
09:14 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has quit [Quit: Bye]
09:19 -!- Starduster_ [~guest@unaffiliated/starduster] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
09:21 -!- Starduster [~guest@unaffiliated/starduster] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
09:25 -!- [1]LeMiner [LeMiner@5ED1AFBF.cm-7-2c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
09:25 -!- droark [~droark@209-6-53-207.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
09:26 -!- LeMiner [~LeMiner@unaffiliated/leminer] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
09:26 -!- [1]LeMiner is now known as LeMiner
09:28 -!- davispuh [~quassel@212.93.114.156] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
09:29 < amiller_> hey everyone
09:29 < amiller_> who wants to read the new Stellar whitepaper
09:30 -!- OneNomos [~OneNomos@242.sub-70-193-71.myvzw.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
09:30 < amiller_> they've dumped everything all at once.... technical faq: https://www.stellar.org/blog/stellar-consensus-protocol-proof-code/ whitepaper https://www.stellar.org/papers/stellar-consensus-protocol.pdf
09:32 < tromp> hi Andrew. I saw your lecture covering Cuckoo Cycle a few days ago. very nice
09:33 < gmaxwell> amiller_: in one minute looking, so far it claims that POS has decenteralized control / open membership; which means it adopts a narrower definition of these words than I would. (since membership in those systems is at the mercy of their existing members)
09:34 < amiller_> gmaxwell, i think they're just being charitable to their "related work".
09:35 < amiller_> tromp, ahh thanks. I have been meaning to ask you to look at it and tell me what you thought... it was recorded a long time ago, way before FC :)
09:35 < gmaxwell> blah.
09:35 < gmaxwell> It is the responsibility of each node v to ensure Q(v) does not violate quorum
09:35 < gmaxwell> intersection
09:36 < gmaxwell> This sounds like the original ripple garbage of "you can trust whomever you want; but its not safe unless you trust the 'right' people, and the definition of right depends on the structure of the entire trust graph which is unknowable to you'
09:37 < tromp> amiller_: i hope ppl don't go googling for "Cuckoo hash cycles" though:(
09:37 < tromp> you say that verification takes k hash function evaluations, which should be 2k
09:38 < tromp> but no-one else will notice that:)
09:39 < tromp> btw, i was playing around with a possible logo for Cuckoo Cycle, and came up with https://github.com/tromp/cuckoo/blob/master/logo.png
09:39 < zooko> Sweet. :-)
09:40 < tromp> hi, zooko!
09:40 -!- davispuh [~quassel@212.93.114.156] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
09:40 < gmaxwell> tromp: cool; the branches sould intertwine and form a wreath.
09:41 < tromp> gmaxwell, yes i wondered about connecting those, bu i lack both the drawing skills and suitable software
09:43 < fluffypony> tromp: I'll see if I can whip something up
09:44 -!- Crowley2k [~Crowley2k@93.113.62.93] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
09:44 < tromp> thx, fluffypony
09:47 -!- davispuh [~quassel@212.93.114.156] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
09:48 < kanzure> i think that pos-new.pdf already covers that membership system
09:48 -!- zwischenzug [~zwischenz@va-76-1-146-100.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
09:48 -!- davispuh [~quassel@212.93.114.156] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
09:48 < gmaxwell> amiller_: it looks like they get around blocking by allowing any disagreement between nodes to delay particular transactions; perhaps forever. but allow unrelated things to go forward; because of this they cannot do any agreement on system parameters. Am I miss understanding this? this seems particularly unuseful to me; the spliting and merging of coins in bitcoin causes rapid exponential growth
09:49 < gmaxwell> in many (most?) transaction past and future interaction-lightcones. So ISTM making a single stuck transactions in such a system could taint all the rest fairly quickly.
09:53 -!- OneNomos [~OneNomos@242.sub-70-193-71.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
09:55 -!- LeMiner [LeMiner@5ED1AFBF.cm-7-2c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Changing host]
09:55 -!- LeMiner [LeMiner@unaffiliated/leminer] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
10:00 -!- hearn [~mike@185.25.95.132] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
10:00 -!- adam3us [~Adium@host-92-19-88-129.as13285.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
10:01 -!- pampuchy [~pampuchy@89-71-221-58.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
10:02 < pampuchy> hi, what is cuckoo cycle?
10:02 -!- priidu [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
10:02 < amiller_> pampuchy, it's a memory hard proof-of-work puzzle that tromp invented
10:03 < amiller_> see: https://github.com/tromp/cuckoo
10:03 -!- c0rw1n [~c0rw1n@91.176.85.209] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
10:03 -!- c0rw1n [~c0rw1n@91.176.85.209] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
10:04 -!- Mably [56401ec3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.86.64.30.195] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
10:05 -!- priidu [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
10:05 < pampuchy> where can i start learning about proof of work, stellar, ripple etc?
10:06 < tromp> zooko, did you ask the scientists what they think about Cuckoo Cycle?
10:06 -!- hashtagg_ [~hashtag@87.97.24.117.pool.invitel.hu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
10:06 < sipa> 'the scientists' ?
10:07 < tromp> the zerocash folks:)
10:08 < fluffypony> tromp: got a colour palette in mind?
10:09 < tromp> no, i planned to keep it a line drawing (black and white)
10:09 < tromp> color distracts:(
10:10 < fluffypony> I'm doing a flat logo, so it'll work fine as black/white
10:11 < kanzure> pampuchy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof-of-work_system
10:12 < kanzure> pampuchy: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9050429
10:17 -!- OneNomos [~OneNomos@179.sub-70-193-96.myvzw.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
10:18 -!- ryanxcharles [~ryan@64.124.157.148] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
10:18 -!- OneNomos [~OneNomos@179.sub-70-193-96.myvzw.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
10:21 < zooko> tromp: hm, the zerocash scientists never got back to me with any comment about cuckoo cycle.
10:21 < pampuchy> what is the consensus on POS? is it considered legitimate?
10:21 < zooko> pampuchy: there isn't yet a consensus.
10:21 < zooko> Please wait about 10000 more blocks and then check again.
10:21 < fluffypony> pampuchy: nothing has, as yet, addressed the concerns around PoS
10:22 < fluffypony> at least not in any way that actually solves them
10:22 < fluffypony> there are plenty of proposals that add complexity to try and "fix" PoS
10:22 < pampuchy> what about these comments by lappa in this thread:  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9061763
10:22 < fluffypony> comments doth not cryptography make
10:23 < zooko> tromp: personally, I'm heavily leaning toward using a Password Hashing Candidate for my memory-oriented PoW, because of the analyses from multiple cryptographers that some of those candidates are getting.
10:23 < andytoshi> pampuchy: have you read https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/pos.pdf ? on the "how do you create distributed consensus" front there is not much more here than there is in that paper
10:23 -!- b_lumenkraft [~b_lumenkr@unaffiliated/b-lumenkraft/x-4457406] has quit [Quit: b_lumenkraft]
10:24 < pampuchy> is lappa here in this channel?
10:24 < andytoshi> pampuchy: also http://www.jbonneau.com/doc/BMCNKF15-IEEESP-bitcoin.pdf by amiller_ and friends if that seems too fluffy, though it doesn't really go into pos.pd
10:24 < tromp> zooko, so you prefer a tweaked scrypt over an asymetric PoW that can be seriously memory bound?!
10:24 < pampuchy> i guess my question really is, who are the known trolls/crakpots etc to steer clear and not waste my time
10:25 < zooko> tromp: what do you mean by "seriously memory bound"?
10:25 < andytoshi> pampuchy: i have not found a filter that doesn't give false negatives; so now i use "everyone advocating pos"
10:25 -!- shesek [~shesek@77.127.158.156] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
10:26 < andytoshi> i'm assuming if there is a break in my argument somebody here will tell me....but i suspect they are all similarly tired of this
10:26 < tromp> see the 4 properties MB1..MB4 in my paper
10:26 < sipa> pampuchy: proo-fo-work in bitcoin is used both for consensus convergence and initial coin distribution, and these "proof of" systems can be used for many things besides those. it seems however, that PoS does not actually solve consensus convergence, though it may be used for other things
10:26 < pampuchy> like?
10:26 < tromp> none of which are particularly satisfied by the PHC candidates
10:27 -!- luktgf [~vfbtgn@188.27.93.165] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
10:27  * zooko looks
10:28 < andytoshi> pampuchy: well if you have a consensus system you can literally prove stake in some part of it; even in bitcoin you can prove possession of coins, you can prove that they are escrowed with a certain party (and this can be used for bonding) etc
10:28 < zooko> I've opened an issue ticket requesting the zerocash scientists, if they are interested, to analyze Cuckoo, Catena, and Lyra2.
10:29 < zooko> tromp: I believe Catena and Lyra2 are intended to provide MB1–MB4.
10:29 < tromp> well, they may provide MB2 and MB4
10:29 -!- mikolalysenko [sid34553@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jiksewhfattuulim] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
10:30 < pampuchy> can anyone explain this post kanzure made: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9049917
10:30 < tromp> but they cannot satisfy MB1 in a PoW context that needs fast verification
10:30 < pampuchy> especially this part: "Once each general receives whatever plan he hears first, he sets his computer to solve a difficult hash-based proof-of-work problem that includes the plan in its hash."
10:30 < zooko> Hm, yeah don't know about MB3.
10:31 < pampuchy> what is a "hash based POW problem"?
10:31 < tromp> it's a PoW based on Hashcash
10:31 < zooko> I think verification of e.g. Catena or Lyra2 can be acceptably fast, although it requires momentary use of a lot of RAM.
10:32 < sipa> pampuchy: read about hashcash, and the bitcoin whitepaper
10:32 < zooko> brb
10:33 < andytoshi> pampuchy: see the beginning of https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/pos.pdf also http://blockstream.com/sidechains.pdf
10:33 < pampuchy> sipa: which one is the bitcoin whitepaper
10:34 < sipa> pampuchy: http://bitcoin.org/bitcoin/pdf
10:34 < sipa> pampuchy: http://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
10:34 -!- orik [~orik@50-46-132-219.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
10:35 < tromp> zooko: using a memory-hard PHC as PoW means making compromises, such as poor performance on mobile devices, and limited asic-resistance
10:37 -!- b_lumenkraft [~b_lumenkr@unaffiliated/b-lumenkraft/x-4457406] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
10:37 -!- priidu [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
10:39 -!- Quanttek [~quassel@2a02:8108:73f:f6e4:e23f:49ff:fe47:9364] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
10:40 -!- OneNomos [~OneNomos@179.sub-70-193-96.myvzw.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
10:41 < pampuchy> is andrew poelstra here
10:41 < andytoshi> pampuchy: hi, i'm andrew poelstra
10:42 < pampuchy> oh! cool
10:42 < andytoshi> :}
10:42 < kanzure> what "Well in bitcoin, of course, trust would map to computing power"
10:43 < pampuchy> hi ansrew i am reading your paper right now:  https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/pos.pdf
10:43 < kanzure> as seen here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9342374
10:43 < zooko> tromp: performance on mobile and asic-resistance are both criteria that the PHC submitters and judges are thinking about.
10:44 < pampuchy> so bitcoin is not POW?
10:44 -!- luktgf [~vfbtgn@86.126.16.156] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
10:45 < sipa> pampuchy: what makes you think that? bitcoin is pow
10:45 < gmaxwell> someone care to respond https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9342282 so its not just me back and forth there.
10:45 < andytoshi> pampuchy: if i suggest that in my paper please let me know
10:45 < pampuchy> andy: see this: https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/asic-faq.pdf
10:45 < pampuchy> "is proof of work interesting"
10:46 < pampuchy> to someone new like me it is a bit confusing
10:46 < pampuchy> maybe not for the rest of ppl here
10:46 < andytoshi> oh :) i meant as an object of study
10:46 < kanzure> gmaxwell: my recommendation is to edit your comment (if possible) to explain that bitcoin and stellar are not using the same architecture or model.
10:46 < kanzure> gmaxwell: because there's really no possible response to that one-liner he gave
10:46 < andytoshi> it's certainly interesting in the sense that it's used in an interesting system
10:46 < pampuchy> andytoshi: no no i mean the line " It is one of the most popular changes to Bitcoin done by copycat “alt” currencies"
10:46 < pampuchy> implying that it isnt in bitcoin itself
10:47 < andytoshi> pampuchy: ah, ok, thx, i will reword that to "changing the PoW algorithm"
10:48 < kanzure> andytoshi: no, how about "Replacing or tweaking the PoW algorithm is one of the most popular changes to Bitcoin by copycat "alt" currencies."
10:48 < andytoshi> sure kanzure, done
10:48 < kanzure> haha my comment is getting downvotes. for the link.
10:48 < pampuchy> also this is a geberal question to everyone, whenever i read about byzantine general problem, it is in terms of malicious actors. is there a "positive" way of describing it. sorry if this doesnt make sense my english is bad.
10:49 < kanzure> yes, there are failure modes that are not intentional but still malicious
10:49 < kanzure> or that still have the same effect as malicious behavior
10:49 < pampuchy> like what
10:49 < kanzure> like speed of light
10:49 < andytoshi> pampuchy: "where parties trying to obtain consensus and correctly behaving are a minority"
10:49 < andytoshi> ehh, even that doesn't cover physical problems
10:50 < pampuchy> kanzure: how could speed of light be malicious
10:51 < tromp> zooko: yes, they're thinking about it, but also accepting that it necessarily involves a compromisen1cEdrEam
10:51 < zooko> *nod*
10:51 < kanzure> well if you assume you have instantaneous access to all transactions ever, speed of light is extremely malicious
10:51 < zooko> That *nod* was for tromp. ☺
10:52 < kanzure> gmaxwell: i could post a response like, "But he said minority." but this doesn't address his actual misunderstanding
10:52 < zooko> tromp: you don't mind if I cut and paste from IRC to this issue ticket do you?
10:53 < pampuchy> what else can PoW and PoS systems be applied to?
10:53 < kanzure> what do you mean by applied
10:54 < tromp> zooko, please do
10:54 < gmaxwell> kanzure: right, AFAICT, a single entity could jam the stellar system for a transaction, given an unfortunate but permitted by the assumptions of the paper topology.
10:54 -!- orik [~orik@50-46-132-219.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
10:55 < gmaxwell> In bitcoin the minimum required to do that is a computational majority, which is the same as the general security assumption of the system.
10:55 < zooko> tromp: it would be really great if the PHC folks would study Cuckoo, but I'm not sure if it is exactly relevant to their work.
10:55 < zooko> It might be, for example, they might say "Perhaps we should conclude that the PHC doesn't need to provide a PoW, because no PHC alg can do PoW well, so we should eliminate that from our criteria.".
10:55 < pampuchy> kanzure: i mean right now the proof that some resources were consumed are pegged to a value - a currency value. can it be pegged to something else.
10:55 < zooko> disclosure: I'm on the PHC panel.
10:55 < tromp> zooko, PoWs have the luxury of being able to use asymmetry between proof attempt and verification, so it's wasteful not to take advantage of that for memory hardness purposes
10:55 < zooko> Although I'm basically an absentee, useless panel member so far.
10:56 < fluffypony> ok tromp, thoughts - http://i.imgur.com/nXKGkwM.jpg ?
10:56 < kanzure> pampuchy: i encourage you to think much more slowly about this. pegging is a very difficult concept and there are many implications or reasons why it might not work.
10:56 < zooko> I separated from my wife last year and completely dropped several responsibilities, including that one.
10:56 < gmaxwell> zooko: someone on the list just responded saying Cuckoo was broken; after I responded to a post that was making a lot of kind of crazy claims about the acceptable properties of a function for cryptocurrency use.  I really do not think the PHC candidates are well suited.
10:57 < pampuchy> kanzure: but isnt that what bitcoin is though?
10:57 < pampuchy> or any PoW altcoin?
10:57 < kanzure> pampuchy: bitcoin is complex and most PoW altcoins dont work except with merged mining
10:57 < kanzure> merge mining, i mean
10:57 < pampuchy> whats that
10:57 -!- cornus_ammonis [~Cornus@pool-173-73-140-137.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
10:57 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
10:57 < kanzure> complexity is when things are not simple or obvious
10:58 < tromp> fluffypony: i thought you were gonna implement gmaxwell's wreathing of branches in my logo:)
10:58 < fluffypony> I started with that
10:58 < tromp> this is quite a different approach
10:58 < fluffypony> but it was painful
10:58 < andytoshi> pampuchy: it's where you can use bitcoin's DMMS as a signature on a different system's chain
10:59 < kanzure> gmaxwell: also it seems like nobody has mentioned that there are other existing protocols for "federated consensus" that are not crazy....
10:59 < andytoshi> pampuchy: less abstractly, google it :) there is a good SE post http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/273/how-does-merged-mining-work
10:59 < tromp> well, kudo's for the effort, but i like to stick with the 6 cuckoo's in a circle:)
10:59 < fluffypony> np
11:00 < kanzure> "However, the trust decisions are public, as this is what allows participants to discover quorums" what? couldn't they easily be lying
11:01 < zooko> gmaxwell: interesting!
11:01 < tromp> zooko: i agree that suitability for PoW use is an ill-considered criterium for the HPC
11:01 < zooko> Gotta go into a meeting now, sorry that I indeed got called away just as you privately suggested that I might, tromp.
11:05 < pampuchy> andytoshi: i like your papers
11:06 -!- skullum [~Adium@2001:4998:effd:600:21bc:72a8:533:ef9] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
11:06 < andytoshi> pampuchy: thanks :) you are welcome to ask if there is anything worded confusingly, though unfortunately (as you have seen) they do not cover all the background knowledge that may be needed
11:07 < gmaxwell> kanzure: I don't quite see how that could work. (I mean it has a circular problem; if you need information X to have a consensus, how do you have a consensus over it?) But I could be missing something obvious.
11:07 -!- rubensayshi [~ruben@91.206.81.13] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
11:09 -!- OneNomos [~OneNomos@179.sub-70-193-96.myvzw.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
11:09 < pampuchy> andytoshi: what is your current research, or, what do you think are the interesting things happening right now
11:11 < kanzure> gmaxwell: ah well i am using a weaker meaning of consensus there
11:11 < andytoshi> pampuchy: hmmm, in the bitcoin space my research is mainly around ring signatures and other privacy improvements for cryptocurrency. in the academic sphere i am between projects ... moving from "indistinguishability obfuscation" which is an imaginary thing that'd make a lot of crypto better, toward network information theory which is much more real
11:12 -!- Mably [~Mably@unaffiliated/mably] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
11:13 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
11:14 < pampuchy> andytoshi: who else is doing interesting things, what forums etc do you visit
11:15 < pampuchy> also a general question, are there any art projects using altcoins, are there any artists you folks recommend
11:15 < kanzure> "(using https, of course, so no one can impersonate them)." this guy doesn't know how https works
11:15 -!- belcher [~belcher-s@5ec18b4c.skybroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
11:15 -!- belcher [~belcher-s@5ec18b4c.skybroadband.com] has quit [Changing host]
11:15 -!- belcher [~belcher-s@unaffiliated/belcher] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
11:15 < andytoshi> pampuchy: the people here are always doing interesting things :), i keep a loose eye on reddit and bitcointalk but only to explain things, there's almost never anything new and exciting there
11:16 < nubbins`> ^
11:16 < andytoshi> pampuchy: if you haven't looked at http://bitcoin.ninja you ought to, there's some neat ideas there
11:21 -!- zooko` [~user@184-96-103-97.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
11:22 < pampuchy> is there a paper here somewhere that i am missing: https://github.com/citp/bitcoin-sok
11:22 < pampuchy> or are we supposed to convert latex to pdf ourselves
11:22 < sipa> pampuchy: probably :)
11:22 < pampuchy> also this paper by andytoshi is super: https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/alts.pdf
11:23 -!- richardus [~richardus@2605:2700:0:3::4713:9a16] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
11:23 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has quit [Quit: Bye]
11:23 -!- zooko [~user@c-75-70-204-109.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
11:24 < amiller_> pampuchy, sorry that github is out of date
11:25 < amiller_> we eventually just siwtched back to private svn out of old habits.
11:25 < amiller_> https://eprint.iacr.org/2015/261 this is our eprint page, you got a link from jbonneau.com that's equally up to date
11:27 -!- hashtagg [~hashtagg_@cpe-69-23-213-3.ma.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
11:28 -!- zooko` [~user@184-96-103-97.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
11:29 -!- pampuchy [~pampuchy@89-71-221-58.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
11:30 -!- hashtag_ [~hashtagg_@69.23.213.3] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
11:35 < kanzure> use git-svn
11:37 < kanzure> "If anyone's interested in proving distributed algorithms correct, they should check out the Verdi project (https://github.com/uwplse/verdi), which has proved Raft correct in Coq."
11:38 < kanzure> http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/lamport/tla/formal-methods-amazon.pdf https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8096185
11:39 -!- adam3us [~Adium@host-92-19-88-129.as13285.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
11:40 -!- adam3us [~Adium@host-92-19-88-129.as13285.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
11:41 -!- zooko [~user@c-75-70-204-109.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
11:45 -!- OneNomos [~OneNomos@2600:1005:b148:7a4:f470:2a77:a85b:8a39] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
11:48 -!- pampuchy [~pampuchy@89-71-221-58.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
11:48 -!- adam3us [~Adium@host-92-19-88-129.as13285.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
11:49 -!- adam3us1 [~Adium@host-92-19-88-129.as13285.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
11:49 -!- OneNomos [~OneNomos@2600:1005:b148:7a4:f470:2a77:a85b:8a39] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
11:49 -!- adam3us [~Adium@host-92-19-88-129.as13285.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
11:49 -!- adam3us1 [~Adium@host-92-19-88-129.as13285.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
12:07 -!- Crowley2k [~Crowley2k@93.113.62.93] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
12:08 -!- Crowley2k [~Crowley2k@93.113.62.93] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
12:09 -!- Crowley2k [~Crowley2k@93.113.62.93] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
12:09 -!- jgarzik [~jgarzik@unaffiliated/jgarzik] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
12:09 -!- Crowley2k [~Crowley2k@93.113.62.93] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
12:09 -!- jgarzik [~jgarzik@unaffiliated/jgarzik] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
12:10 -!- Crowley2k [~Crowley2k@93.113.62.93] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
12:10 -!- user7779078 [~user77790@pool-108-30-214-152.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
12:10 -!- Crowley2k [~Crowley2k@93.113.62.93] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
12:11 -!- phiche [~Adium@91.143.127.112] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
12:12 < pampuchy> amiller_: oh
12:12 < pampuchy> is there a paper somewhere
12:13 -!- Crowley2k [~Crowley2k@93.113.62.93] has quit [Client Quit]
12:13 < amiller_> pampuchy, yes here https://eprint.iacr.org/2015/261
12:14 -!- Crowley2k [~Crowley2k@93.113.62.93] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
12:15 < gmaxwell> kanzure: Does this sound reasonable? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9342947
12:15 < lechuga_> minor parser error: "I agree that a sybil sticking on a bunch on a bunch of extra 'nodes' and those diverging isn't interesting case."
12:16 -!- jgarzik [~jgarzik@unaffiliated/jgarzik] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
12:16 < lechuga_> but imo completely reasonable questions
12:17 -!- jgarzik [~jgarzik@unaffiliated/jgarzik] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
12:17 < gmaxwell> lechuga_: thanks, fixed.
12:17 -!- phiche [~Adium@91.143.127.112] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
12:17 < lechuga_> np
12:18 -!- jgarzik [~jgarzik@unaffiliated/jgarzik] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
12:19 -!- jgarzik [~jgarzik@unaffiliated/jgarzik] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
12:19 -!- phiche [~Adium@91.143.127.112] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
12:21 -!- jgarzik [~jgarzik@unaffiliated/jgarzik] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
12:21 -!- jgarzik [~jgarzik@unaffiliated/jgarzik] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
12:23 -!- jgarzik [~jgarzik@unaffiliated/jgarzik] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
12:24 -!- jhogan42 [~jhogan42@67.169.168.179] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
12:24 -!- jgarzik [~jgarzik@104-178-201-106.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
12:24 -!- jgarzik [~jgarzik@104-178-201-106.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host]
12:24 -!- jgarzik [~jgarzik@unaffiliated/jgarzik] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
12:25 -!- jgarzik [~jgarzik@unaffiliated/jgarzik] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
12:26 -!- jgarzik [~jgarzik@104-178-201-106.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
12:26 -!- jgarzik [~jgarzik@104-178-201-106.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host]
12:26 -!- jgarzik [~jgarzik@unaffiliated/jgarzik] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
12:26 -!- orik [~orik@50.34.199.60] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
12:29 -!- orik [~orik@50.34.199.60] has quit [Client Quit]
12:34 -!- jgarzik [~jgarzik@unaffiliated/jgarzik] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
12:36 -!- paveljanik [~paveljani@unaffiliated/paveljanik] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
12:37 < pampuchy> are there other algorithms that can be used for hashing that can be calculated by hand like this video? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3dqhixzGVo
12:38 -!- Madars [~null@unaffiliated/madars] has quit [Quit: reconnecting]
12:38 < gmaxwell> anything a computer can calculate you can calculate by hand. :)
12:39 -!- Madars [~null@unaffiliated/madars] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
12:39 < fluffypony> petertodd: I just received the CoinBase email
12:39 < fluffypony> looks like a valid DKIM signature
12:39 < fluffypony> I think their SendGrid account has been compromised
12:39 -!- orik [~orik@50.34.199.60] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
12:41 < gwillen> fluffypony: I just got the same thing
12:41 < gmaxwell> fluffypony: do you have a standalone dkim validator?
12:42 < fluffypony> yes, I've validated it
12:42 < gmaxwell> Where can I get one? :P
12:42 < fluffypony> let me put the mail up
12:42 < gwillen> gmaxwell: I didn't validate the DKIM, but it came to me from an IP that is "inside coinbase"
12:42 < gwillen> i.e. their own DNS forward-resolves to
12:42 < fluffypony> gmaxwell: pydkim is your friend
12:42 < pampuchy> gmaxwell: i meant, what other hash algorithms are comonly used
12:43 < gwillen> the whois puts the IP inside sendgrid
12:43 < gwillen> so I think the theory that someone broke into their sendgrid account seems likely
12:43 < gmaxwell> "The call is coming from inside the building."
12:43 < fluffypony> gwillen: yeah an em.coinbase.com's DKIM allows SendGrid to send mails on behalf of em.coinbase.com
12:43 < fluffypony> http://0bin.net/paste/nVjFmXN5MH+L6E71#YMhBJBgaRpm8yYjzPp3tkuyIzWZsMuhXafxgenhNII2
12:43 < gwillen> right, yeah
12:44 < gwillen> if you were going to bother breaking into someone's sendgrid account, why not run the email by someone who speaks English?
12:44 < gwillen> it's such a weird mixture of competence and lack thereof.
12:44 < gmaxwell> You don't know what you don't know.
12:44 < fluffypony> I would have disregarded this mail completely were it not for the valid DKIM signature
12:44 < gwillen> I already had disregarded it
12:44 < gwillen> I grabbed it out of the trash
12:45 < fluffypony> I mean disregarded like not even noticed it
12:45 < gmaxwell> isn't it awesome that the security is so bad that it's being compromised by gibbering idiots? (I don't mean to suggest everyone who isn't fluent in english is an idiot, but rather people who aren't and don't know it or don't know that it matters for something like this are)
12:46 < gmaxwell> actually the english in this one isn't so bad.
12:46 -!- devrandom [~devrandom@unaffiliated/niftyzero1] has quit [Quit: leaving]
12:46 < gwillen> I mean, maybe their goal is just to get gmail to display the email as "From: Coinbase" and not spam-flag it
12:47 < gwillen> in which case maybe DKIM is more important than English
12:47 -!- tcrypt [~tylersmit@173.247.206.110] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
12:49 -!- Chillum [~highinbc@wikipedia/Chillum] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
12:49 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
12:50 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
12:52 -!- phiche [~Adium@91.143.127.112] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
12:52 -!- phiche [~Adium@91.143.127.112] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
12:54 < pigeons> yes i got that email too, at first i believed it because an investment scam isnt out of the realm of something coinbase would think is a good idea
12:54 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-188-40-206.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
12:54 -!- jhogan42 [~jhogan42@67.169.168.179] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com]
12:55 < pigeons> neither is "everybody send to the same bitcoin address"
12:56 < kanzure> just because people work at coinbase should confer no predictions for whether they understand bitcoin
12:56 < gmaxwell> pigeons: How much did you lose to it? :P
12:56 < fluffypony> lol
12:57 -!- bramc [~bram@99-75-88-206.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep]
12:57 < pigeons> nothing, i double my money in 10 days or something!
12:58 < lechuga_> im out 30 btc. wanted 2nd level upgrade :(
12:59 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
13:00 -!- priidu [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
13:00 -!- luktgf [~vfbtgn@86.126.16.156] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
13:01 < pigeons> regarding the poor english, i think this has been discussed here before http://research.microsoft.com/apps/pubs/default.aspx?id=167712
13:02 < lechuga_> not sure why that matters in this case. there is no follow-up interaction required for attacker success.
13:02 < pigeons> even though this is a different target "mark" the poor english could help weed out people who would waste the scammers time because those people are observant
13:02 < pigeons> oh ok
13:02 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has quit [Client Quit]
13:04 -!- wumpus [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/wumpus] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
13:04 < gmaxwell> yea, this is actually counter evidence to the MSFT filtering argument.
13:04 < gmaxwell> But both can be true.
13:05 -!- pampuchy [~pampuchy@89-71-221-58.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
13:05 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, the counter-evidence being hilarious videos of nigerian scammers doing things like recreating a play... in full
13:05 -!- wumpus [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/wumpus] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
13:10 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-180-192-179.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
13:12 -!- antgreen [~user@CPE687f74122463-CM84948c2e0610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
13:13 -!- tdryja [~tx@s186.62.229.222.fls.vectant.ne.jp] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
13:13 -!- luktgf [~vfbtgn@86.126.16.156] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
13:20 -!- Tjopper [~Jop@dhcp-077-249-237-229.chello.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
13:20 -!- lmatteis [uid3300@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-yxnzngbipctpzxpb] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
13:23 -!- zooko [~user@c-75-70-204-109.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
13:25 -!- pampuchy [~pampuchy@89-71-221-58.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
13:28 -!- b_lumenkraft [~b_lumenkr@unaffiliated/b-lumenkraft/x-4457406] has quit [Quit: b_lumenkraft]
13:37 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
13:45 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@chello084114181075.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
13:45 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@chello084114181075.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Changing host]
13:45 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
13:46 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
13:48 -!- Crowley2k [~Crowley2k@93.113.62.93] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
13:50 -!- CoinMuncher [~jannes@178.132.211.90] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
13:56 -!- phiche [~Adium@91.143.127.112] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
13:56 -!- nemild [~nemild@104.207.195.34] has quit [Quit: nemild]
14:00 -!- phiche [~Adium@91.143.127.112] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
14:01 < lechuga_> reply: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9343816
14:02 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
14:04 -!- arubi_ [~ese168@unaffiliated/arubi] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
14:06 < gmaxwell> lechuga_: Maybe I'm being uncharitable. My intial internal response to that was "Sure, bitcoin's security model might actually suck, or at least be inapplicable to your application: but at least it has one.  If your security model is 'let the market decide' and especially without the tools for that decision to be a transparent and intentional one rather than chance, why bother building your syste
14:06 < gmaxwell> m at all? A C compiler is already fully general for the space of networks and security models the network might choose to build."
14:06 < pigeons> proof of faith
14:07 < gmaxwell> I'm not quite sure how to clearly make that point that "Effective-security-model-x emerged as a product of peoples local actions" is not at all the same as "The market chose to use security model X" or even "The market has any idea what its security model is at all"
14:07 < lechuga_> lol
14:10 -!- phiche [~Adium@91.143.127.112] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
14:10 -!- phiche1 [~Adium@91.143.127.112] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
14:11 -!- Tjopper [~Jop@dhcp-077-249-237-229.chello.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
14:13 -!- phiche1 [~Adium@91.143.127.112] has quit [Read error: No route to host]
14:13 -!- phiche [~Adium@91.143.127.112] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
14:17 < lechuga_> i havent fully groked what they're saying but it sounds roughly like some dynamic set of mdfs and if u and some1 else have a intersecting mdf sets u trust then u can trust the relevant portion of the ledger
14:17 < lechuga_> s/a//
14:18 -!- Dizzle [~Dizzle@108-94-37-10.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...]
14:18 < helo> classic phone typing
14:18 < amiller_> i think there's an interesting gap because there's some implicit modeling things that come across when mazieres gives his explanation... for example he gives an example scenario where someone says "if you want to do business with me, please add me to your trust list".
14:19 < amiller_> i think that suggests that it's natural to want to ask someone to be added to your list, as an up-and-coming node or startup services you may want people to add you,
14:20 -!- binaryFate [~binaryFat@2a02:2788:64:d7f:85bf:a6e4:d756:8a86] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
14:20 < amiller_> and who you actually add should be somehow constrained based on the number of people you actually want to do business with and so you add them like you said.
14:20 < amiller_> so my point is that i think there *is* a model, it's just implicit
14:21 < amiller_> if it were explicitly stated then we could pick that apart too.
14:21 < gmaxwell> Here is my draft actual response, http://0bin.net/paste/2t+3GCUu9IXh4AHy#W4qf9M1k3jO8MlUUQBVMG4Rz7adPKcz6UC-xaZrhV5M thoughts?
14:21 < kanzure> isn't that really easy to accidentally break
14:21 < gmaxwell> There may be no evidence of it, but I'm really not trying to be an ass here.
14:23 < lechuga_> typo: "For the market to chose"
14:23 < amiller_> "trust whomever you want, but be sure to include me as well," is a bad rule because it's vulnerable to a sybil attack.
14:23 < andytoshi> gmaxwell: i think this is very good iff it's good to even reply
14:23 < amiller_> it's vulnerable to the same kind of facebook "like and subscribe" spam problem
14:24 < gmaxwell> andytoshi: it's probably not.
14:24 < helo> official gmaxwell disapproval achievment!
14:24 < gmaxwell> sort of kills me thinking that no one will call out that "leave it to the market there" is "leave it to chance"
14:24 < andytoshi> gmaxwell: there is a huge quagmire here as soon as you start thinking in "non-wizardly ways" about trust models e.g. i am on a mailing list now with vitalik, dominic, etc and i really can't understand half the shit that gets said there because it's so far away from the way that i think about bitcoin
14:24 < helo> (i checked that off my bucket list years ago)
14:24 < andytoshi> i -think- it's just obfuscated handwaving but i can't be sure
14:25 < gmaxwell> Leave it to the market is chosing among systems with opinioned security models, it's letting people choose NXT vs bitcoin (ignoring the ineffectiveness of the market in the face of imperfect or asymetric information).
14:25 < andytoshi> gmaxwell: i actually really like it for that reason, i haven't seen such a well-articulated response to this "let the market decide" shit
14:25 < lechuga_> imo it's worthwhile for people to see this reply
14:25 < amiller_> it's easy to build a protocol with a "market failure" mode, where it has a defective incentive system where the locally best choices for individual participants leads to systemic risk.
14:25 < gmaxwell> andytoshi: well I thought he made my response easy by basically saying his system generalizs the bitcoin trust model.
14:25 < gmaxwell> So I know there is no attack I could present which his system wouldn't defeat.
14:25 < andytoshi> agreed with lechuga_, but i would commit to not replying to any response :)
14:26 < andytoshi> (not explicitly, that makes you look like a dick, but in your heart)
14:26 < gmaxwell> yea, I already considered this my debate closer.
14:26 -!- zooko [~user@c-75-70-204-109.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
14:26 < gmaxwell> we're obviously not going to agree and he's not going to respond to the particular questions I answered any more specifically.
14:26 < helo> "the invariants which much hold"
14:27 < kanzure> andytoshi: trust/identity are very important concepts to some people, and it's very hard to dissociate those concepts from what they do. i suspect this is why you find their talk incomprehensible and meaningless (because it is).
14:27 -!- zwischenzug [~zwischenz@va-76-1-146-100.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
14:29 < kanzure> gmaxwell: perhaps present the idea to him that he should consider using other systems that are equally attackable and less complex, or something. or just that he has options there... i mean, just in the same way that others are apparently amazed that conventional databases can be more efficient than bitcoin, perhaps you mentioning this will be valuable to him.
14:29 < andytoshi> kanzure: one outcome of it was an email from dominic williams in which he claimed that DMMS is a flawed abstraction and that even thinking about mining as a signature is wrong, it's actually something different
14:29 < andytoshi> which i think is totally incorrect, but ultimately that's a matter of opinion on how you want to model mining, it is what it is
14:29 < andytoshi> and i said i'd reply and never did :/ too little time in the world
14:29 < gmaxwell> kanzure: hm? I think his 'system' is immune to all attacks in the same way a C compiler is.
14:30 < kanzure> right
14:31 < gmaxwell> Basically, with some complexity around it,  you trust people and do what they say.  Their behavior is not fully specified. So you could take any attack and solve it by saying "don't trust people who allow that attack."
14:31 < kanzure> is this guy really this seriously misinformed "(Heck, someone might literally replicate the Bitcoin policy and configure their quorum slices to trust 67% of whoever mined a Bitcoin block in the past week. That wouldn't really make sense, but it's possible.)"
14:31 < kanzure> never does a "% of whoever" matter at all in bitcoin... how would the system know about percents of people?
14:32 -!- davispuh [~quassel@212.93.114.156] has quit [Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.]
14:32 < sipa> forgive me for commenting without having read the arguments, but it sounds like they have a mathematicdl model now about the conditions under which they maintain convergence, but not any economic or otherwise reason why those conditions would hold with real world actors?
14:33 < kanzure> "then Stellar will be safe." ... but not anyone using it.
14:33 -!- user7779078 [~user77790@pool-108-30-214-152.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
14:36 < sipa> kanzure: sounds like he has the "51% of miners determine the rules" model (i.e. the no-full-node model)
14:36 < gmaxwell> sipa: I wish it were that strong.
14:36 -!- phiche [~Adium@91.143.127.112] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
14:38 < gmaxwell> sipa: this is basically the original ripple model, refined.
14:38 < kanzure> no sipa means "it sounds like he thinks bitocin is x"
14:38 < kanzure> *bitcoin
14:38 -!- helo [~helo@unaffiliated/helo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
14:38 -!- jhogan42 [~jhogan42@c-67-169-168-179.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
14:39 < kanzure> oh, whoops, no, i'm wrong
14:39 -!- helo [~helo@unaffiliated/helo] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
14:39 -!- helo [~helo@unaffiliated/helo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
14:40 < gmaxwell> "nodes choose who to trust. If everyone chooses wisely for some defintion of wisely, consensus is possible".  I asked how users would manage to achieve any of the many possible wise topologies, and the response was that it was up to the market.
14:40 < gmaxwell> and he specifically pointed out that the system basically generalizes bitcoin (e.g. entities could use bitcoin for consensus and you could trust them)
14:41 -!- davispuh [~quassel@212.93.114.156] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
14:44 -!- helo [~helo@unaffiliated/helo] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
14:45 -!- skeuomorf [~skeuomorf@unaffiliated/skeuomorf] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
14:48 -!- adam3us [~Adium@host-92-19-88-129.as13285.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
14:53 -!- adam3us [~Adium@host-92-19-88-129.as13285.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
14:55 -!- Profreid [~Profreitt@179.43.155.2] has quit [Quit: Profreid]
14:57 < Taek> It's not very decentralized but I could see a system where people's trust list starts to include primarily/exclusively big-name corporation nodes
14:57 < Taek> this is slightly better than trusting a single corporation with your consensus
14:57 < Taek> (as long as they all behave)
14:58 < Taek> it's a compromise between the Bitcoin and PayPal model
14:59 < lechuga_> on the surface it makes me think of the mdfs from sidechains.pdf
15:02 < kanzure> Taek: calling it a compromise is misinformed i think, because it paints a spectrum as if there is a spectrum. there isn't. there are just distinctly different implications that people are ignoring.
15:04 < gmaxwell> Taek: that might be something you'd reasonably choose for some things. Nothign wrong with that, it's a model you could take or leave.
15:05 < gmaxwell> My complant on the ripple model is that I don't like the security model, its that there isn't one. The system, depending on how users set their settings is (apparently) fully general for all possible security models. Maybe they'll trust bitcoin miners.
15:06 < gmaxwell> And of course, most security models are _bad_ and you don't want them. So... if you've got a fully general system I think you really need to say how it's going to deliver models that people want, if not a specific model.
15:06 < zooko> gmaxwell: I haven't been reading IRC logs closely. When you say "ripple model" there, does it also apply to the new Stellar model?
15:06 < gmaxwell> zooko: yes, the complaint I'm making is fully general to both. They fixed nothing about it.
15:06 < gmaxwell> (I mean, they improved other things for sure; but not this)
15:07 -!- moa [~kiwigb@opentransactions/dev/moa] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
15:07 < gmaxwell> Basically nodes configure "trust", and the security model of the network emerges as a product of everyone's trust configurations. No guidance is provided beyond that there are some topologies where the system will spontaniously fault, and it's up to the users to not configure it in those manners.
15:09 < gmaxwell> In ripple's case, ripple distributes and administers a UNL that everyone (almost everyone?) uses. This results in a topology that is mostly safe; but also centeralized in practice. (which we can observe in ripple's actual behaivor, with mandatory deanonymizaiton of users after the fact and such)
15:09 -!- pampuchy [~pampuchy@89-71-221-58.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
15:10 < gmaxwell> It's a perfectly reasonable security model; just not a decenteralized one.
15:10 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, "If everyone chooses wisely" in which everyone literally means everyone just about says it all
15:10 < gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: it's complicated, I mean you can have some clique of morons off to the side, they'll only hurt themselves.
15:11 < gmaxwell> But if you have a clique of morons in the middle it can hurt people outside of the morons. So it's not just "you're safe if you're wise".
15:11 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, unless their failure is non obvious but apparently beneficial
15:11 < phantomcircuit> they end up being heavily linked and are a systemic risk
15:11 < phantomcircuit> which basically means they've managed to abstract the existing banking infrastructure
15:12 < gmaxwell> right. "Immunity to MTGOX, bitcoinica, and mybitcoin"
15:12 < gmaxwell> is a property these trust things MAY not lack, among other issues.
15:13 < moa> gmaxwell: the emergent behavior security model explanation/assumption looks like a powerful tool
15:14 < kanzure> powerfully weak perhaps
15:14 < Taek> moa: it's difficult to reason about though. It's not at all clear that sane/safe behavior will emerge
15:15 < gmaxwell> zooko: I complained on HN to mazieres that by failing to specify how the trust edges are established and maintained, it's effectively failing to state a concrete security model. His response was that it should be up to the market; and even pointed out that the system could generalize Bitcoin's model e.g. by people choosing to trust 67% of the recent miners. I countered that just because a securit
15:15 < moa> taek maybe just need better quantification tools?
15:15 < gmaxwell> y model emerges, doesn't mean anyone wants it or chose it, and suggested that it's actually leaving it up to chance-- not the market.
15:15 < phantomcircuit> kanzure, it's very difficult to argue against as it's so incredibly poorly specified
15:15 < moa> phantomcircuit: make it an axoim and move on ...
15:15 < phantomcircuit> (which also means it's very difficult to argue it's correctness... but most people dont seem to have noticed that)
15:15 < gmaxwell> moa: yes, I might accept some answer that argued that there will be (or could exist!) powerful quantification tools; though I'd still have collective action concerns.
15:17 < kanzure> gmaxwell: typo, "and can potentially full accommodate the whim of man"
15:17 < gmaxwell> moa: e.g. say you have powerful quantification and everyone agrees that the security model the current trust graph gives is not good ("oh shit, MTGOX could rob all of us"); that doesn't mean that there would exist a pratical mechenism to resolve the problem; since the security arises out of everyone's behavior. Each user might have to do something that was locally against your interest (e.g. leav
15:17 < gmaxwell> es you more likely to get partitioned in the short term) in order to make the improvement.
15:19 < gmaxwell> actually thats one of the existing problems with this. I might trust Alice a lot. And really distrust Citibank. But the builk of the world trusts citibank and not alice. Configuring myself honestly increases my risk. :(
15:20 < Taek> +1
15:21 -!- zwischenzug [~zwischenz@va-76-1-146-100.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
15:21 < Taek> I was thinking, the Stellar model also makes it much more difficult to have anonymous participation in consensus, b/c nobody is going to trust an anonymous node
15:21 < Taek> compared to Bitcoin, where work is work no matter who produced it
15:21 -!- zwischenzug2 [~zwischenz@va-76-1-146-100.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
15:21 < moa> some quote about "Sanity in a world of insanity is insane"
15:21 -!- zwischenzug2 [~zwischenz@va-76-1-146-100.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
15:23 -!- Mably [~Mably@unaffiliated/mably] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
15:23 < gmaxwell> Taek: yea, the default will be centeralized most likely, unless specific action is taken to fix that... and whatever that is, its critical to the 'defacto' security model.
15:23 -!- helo [~helo@unaffiliated/helo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
15:24 -!- helo [~helo@unaffiliated/helo] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
15:27 -!- zooko [~user@c-75-70-204-109.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: brb getting my startup funded]
15:29 -!- nemild [~nemild@cpe-74-72-44-76.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
15:30 -!- nemild [~nemild@cpe-74-72-44-76.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit]
15:33 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
15:33 -!- binaryFate [~binaryFat@2a02:2788:64:d7f:85bf:a6e4:d756:8a86] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
15:34 -!- Sqt [~stqism@freebsd/user/stqism] has quit [Quit: Not a fed.]
15:35 -!- AlexStraunoff [~stqism@freebsd/user/stqism] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
15:37 -!- AlexStraunoff is now known as Sqt
15:37 -!- Sqt is now known as Sqr
15:37 -!- Quanttek [~quassel@2a02:8108:73f:f6e4:e23f:49ff:fe47:9364] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.]
15:38 -!- Sqr is now known as Sqt
15:38 -!- Quanttek [~quassel@2a02:8108:73f:f6e4:e23f:49ff:fe47:9364] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
15:43 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:304:cff8:1580:f97e:41b5:8940:f618] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
15:45 -!- pampuchy [~pampuchy@89-71-221-58.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
15:45 -!- StephenM347 [~stephenm3@static-64-223-246-218.port.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit []
15:54 -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
16:01 -!- moa [~kiwigb@opentransactions/dev/moa] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
16:06 -!- skullum [~Adium@2001:4998:effd:600:21bc:72a8:533:ef9] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
16:10 -!- orik [~orik@50.34.199.60] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
16:10 -!- orik [~orik@50.34.199.60] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
16:12 -!- orik [~orik@50.34.199.60] has quit [Client Quit]
16:12 < kanzure> "I've been to at least 200 software conferences in my life and never heard speakers like Linus, Ken Thomson, RMS, Gordon Letwin, DHH, Anders Hejlsberg mention "correctness"."
16:13 < gmaxwell> kanzure: and I look around and see software failing everywhere around me, every day, virtually every program I interact with I've found serious bugs in them. No wonder, enh?
16:13 < kanzure> i keep expecting programmers to be immune to arguments from authority but i don't know why; clearly this immunity does not exist.
16:15 -!- moa [~kiwigb@opentransactions/dev/moa] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
16:15 < kanzure> and also: why would anyone expect the number of conferences they have gone to indicate their knowledge at all? judging yourself by peers is the dumbest thing ever, your peers will just be judging each other in an endless loop of mediocrity forever.
16:21 < andytoshi> kanzure: fwiw if you're ever feeling down about programmer culture, you can hang out on #rust on irc.mozilla.org and you'll find shockingly little personality/politics, it's a very friendly and helpful place .... and people talk about "correctness" a lot :P it's really a breath of fresh air
16:25 < pampuchy> so - any consensus (lol) on stellar? yay or nay?
16:25 < pampuchy> if anyone cares to summarize the channels thoughts...
16:25 < kanzure> thanks for the offer, i'm gonna go troll them and ask about proof of beef
16:26 < gmaxwell> pampuchy: dunno, maybe ask in #hardware
16:43 -!- zooko [~user@184-96-103-97.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
16:46 -!- skullum1 [Adium@nat/yahoo/x-uelbjhgwyidzknsl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
16:48 -!- crescendo [~mozart@173.203.100.20] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
16:48 -!- crescendo [~mozart@173.203.100.20] has quit [Changing host]
16:48 -!- crescendo [~mozart@unaffiliated/crescendo] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
16:49 < pampuchy> what does #bitcoin-wizards manke of http://blockstream.com/sidechains.pdf ?
16:49 < pampuchy> *make
16:51 < adam3us> most of the authors are on here so maybe should let someone else give their view.
16:53 < pampuchy> adam3us: are you adam back?
16:53 < lechuga_> pampuchy: seems really interesting and a promising avenue for further more rapid innovation. anxious to look at the prototype.
16:54 < adam3us> not super technical level detailed but this sidechain explanation someone posted seems reasonable at high level https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1Tc_fhTPqbdlvApnWQWsgzG1U6NwN9lgkQsTdm5O-9iA/edit#slide=id.p
16:55 -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
16:55 < adam3us> (yes adam) several people you were talking to here today also
16:58 -!- pampuchy [~pampuchy@89-71-221-58.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
16:58 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:58 < gmaxwell> pretty sure that several others of us are not Adam Back.
16:58 < kanzure> deitweiler disagrees
16:59 < adam3us> gmaxwell: indeed, reparsed version several of the authors you were talking to.  gmaxwell andytoshi amiller sipa
16:59 < kanzure> ( the guy who discovered that hal finney, tim may and nick szabo were all the same person http://borg.uu3.net/ldetweil/ )
17:00 < kanzure> would not be surprised to learn that they are all also adam back
17:00 -!- pampuchy [~pampuchy@89-71-221-58.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
17:00 < pampuchy> sorry i was logged out, adam3us if you are adam back then cool, nice paper
17:00 < gmaxwell> There was someone on reddit who was alleging I was Hal.
17:00 < lechuga_> it really seemed like he chased szabo off the internet
17:01 < kanzure> oh right, he also thought hal finney was perry metzger
17:02 < adam3us> hmm i suppose that could be read as a tentacle/pseudonym shell game, detweiller poor fellow, the pseudonyms and tentacles got to him.
17:03 < kanzure> no really, this guy is an endless source of humor and comedy. he was on to nick szabo long before people started suspecting nick szabo was wei dai was satoshi.
17:03 < zooko> He used to live in this neck of the woods -- Colorado.
17:03 < pampuchy> so who is satoshi?
17:04 < andytoshi> pampuchy: the authors of that paper are adam3us BlueMatt Luke-Jr maaku gmaxwell amiller_ andy-logbot jtimon sipa
17:04 < andytoshi> ugh andytoshi not andy-logbot
17:04 -!- ryanxcharles [~ryan@64.124.157.148] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
17:04 < lechuga_> pampuchy: u must not read newsweek
17:04 < zooko> andy-logbot has been upgraded to have a paper-writing plugin?
17:04 < andytoshi> pampuchy: no satoshi speculation please, most of us here are high-profile enough that any statements could be picked up by the media, who has repeatedly gone and fucked up people's lives based on unfounded speculation
17:05 < pampuchy> oh i am so sorry, i didnt know these things
17:05 < moa> i've always wondered if wei dai is pronounced "why die" or "way day" or variations thereof
17:05 < andytoshi> zooko: yes, i admit it, i was asking the logbot what to write the whole time
17:05 < zooko> lol
17:05 < kanzure> moa: it stands for "great danger"
17:06 < pampuchy> i have an idea but its really dumb so i ffel shy saying it
17:06 < andytoshi> pampuchy: it's ok :) it just unfortunately causes problems way out of proportion to speculate about satoshi
17:06 < zooko> pampuchy: I have a lot of those.
17:06 < lechuga_> lol same
17:06 < adam3us> moa: i always guessed it was "way die" but i do not know what is correct
17:06 < kanzure> moa: http://lesswrong.com/lw/jgz/aalwa_ask_any_lesswronger_anything/ap84
17:07 < gmaxwell> pampuchy: It's just not really an interesting question; you can find any number of long essays on people as to why it's not interesting.
17:07 < pampuchy> no no i dont mean about satoshi, i mean i have an idea with proof of work used in a artistic context.
17:07 < kanzure> adam3us: http://lesswrong.com/lw/jgz/aalwa_ask_any_lesswronger_anything/aphv
17:07 -!- d1ggy [~d1ggy@dslb-088-070-161-026.088.070.pools.vodafone-ip.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
17:07 < kanzure> (pronunciation)
17:07 < andytoshi> pampuchy: it's ok, but if you are suggesting to use art in a PoW context that's not interesting ;)
17:07 < andytoshi> petertodd is our resident artist
17:08 < adam3us> kanzure: wow i had guessed right :) "way dye"
17:08 < pampuchy> i am, drawings, actually
17:08 < kanzure> whoops the name means "grave danger" not "great danger"
17:08 < lechuga_> i thought it meant like 4 diff things depending on which permutation u decide on
17:08 < kanzure> "grave danger" is from http://lesswrong.com/lw/kk5/look_for_the_next_tech_gold_rush/b5dg
17:08 < adam3us> andytoshi: well in some way PoWs have aesthetic value… soo many 0s and exponential difficulty to find one more etc.
17:09 < pampuchy> and a slow blockchain, with days passing between computations
17:09 < kanzure> anyway i assume that "grave danger" comes from his overwhelming sense of anxiety regarding http://lesswrong.com/lw/jgz/aalwa_ask_any_lesswronger_anything/ap84
17:09 < zooko> pampuchy: that sounds like one of my bad ideas.
17:10 < jtimon> with spanish deterministic pronunciation rules, "wei dai" would sound like "way die" in english. Knowing that's a foreign language, I would say most spaniards would try their luck and say something that sounds like "why day"
17:10 < kanzure> "I do have some early role models. I recall wanting to be a real-life version of the fictional "Sandor Arbitration Intelligence at the Zoo" (from Vernor Vinge's novel A Fire Upon the Deep) who in the story is known for consistently writing the clearest and most insightful posts on the Net. And then there was Hal Finney who probably came closest to an actual real-life version of Sandor at the Zoo, and Tim May who besides inspiring me ...
17:10 < jtimon> moa^
17:10 < kanzure> ... with his vision of cryptoanarchy was also a role model for doing early retirement from the tech industry and working on his own interests/causes."
17:10 < pampuchy> yes, highly impractical PoW is what i am saying
17:10 -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@239-196-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
17:10 < pampuchy> with "making a one page drawing" constituting PoW
17:10 < kanzure> pampuchy: being practical is the most important property of proof-of-work
17:10 -!- d1ggy_ [~d1ggy@dslc-082-082-197-224.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
17:11 < kanzure> one of the most important properties, at least
17:11 < pampuchy> and the sketchbook used being the "ledger"
17:11 < zooko> Who's the real life Twirlip of the Mists?
17:11 < kanzure> "By the way, Twirlip of the Mists was not a bizarre, insane freak. Twirlip of the Mists was amazingly perceptive, or rather knowledgeable, although alas had nowhere near the eloquence of Sandor at the Zoo. Hint: look carefully at the first description of the Skroderiders. Actually, one thing that bothers me about the Net: who the hell is on it? It often seems that entire races are posters -- Sandor's last posting refers to having been ...
17:11 < kanzure> ... composed of twenty civilizations. So they are all just sending email around to each other? wat"
17:12 < pampuchy> the altcurrency based on these drawings is called brud, with a brud equal to a thousand kurz.
17:12 -!- raiz [~raizor@jonny.cloakcoin.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
17:12 < adam3us> pampuchy: this is kind of funny a guy who did some proof of work, by hand http://siliconangle.com/blog/2014/10/02/how-long-would-it-take-to-mine-bitcoin-by-hand/ (0.67 hashes/day!)
17:12 < kanzure> pampuchy: i don't think you are reading anything we have given you
17:13 < pampuchy> haha, my point is that after reading the sidepegged article, we can modify brud and kurz in the future to be compatible with any other altcoin
17:13 < kanzure> you cannot force-wait "days" between "computations"... that's not how computation works.
17:13 < pampuchy> adam3us: yes, i saw that. except that it is pretty boring. drawing is more fun.
17:14 -!- null_radix [Elite7851@gateway/shell/elitebnc/x-threassioyvpkcmp] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
17:14 < kanzure> zooko: weird, the page i was reading from cites an email from carl feynman (the miniature version of richard feynman that's still running around) http://mindstalk.net/vinge/fire.html
17:14 < pampuchy> oh i dont mean forcing any waits, i mean thats usually how it goes with my sketchbooks - days go by with nothing, then one drawing, then two...
17:15 -!- tjader [~tjader@179.210.108.36] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
17:15 < kanzure> uh, no
17:15 < kanzure> you very explicitly said so: 17:09 < pampuchy> and a slow blockchain, with days passing between computations
17:15 < zooko> Okay, -wizards, it is time for me to play Dominions 4 with my 10yo. Catch you tomorrow or later tonight! ☺
17:15 -!- zooko [~user@184-96-103-97.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)]
17:15 -!- raizor [~raizor@jonny.cloakcoin.info] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
17:16 < pampuchy> well kanzure i certainly dont want to force anyone to draw, that would be awful.
17:16 < kanzure> what?
17:16 < kanzure> even if you did want that, i don't see how that would be possible. so you seem to be talking nonsense?
17:19 < pampuchy> i intend to take the ideas behind PoW, of spending a resource, and apply it to drawing. a sketchbook filled with drawings being the blockchain.
17:20 < kanzure> ah, then what are the ideas behind proof-of-work?
17:20 < gmaxwell> man, more sketchy cryptography.
17:21 < pampuchy> yes! totally sketchy
17:22 < andytoshi> hehehe
17:23 < moa> and another altcoin is born
17:23 < pampuchy> woohoo!
17:24 < pampuchy> from andrew's treatise: "Your crankery is not cute. You are
17:24 < pampuchy> not a cryptographer, and yet are releasing a homebrew cryptosystem, misrepresenting your
17:24 < pampuchy> own qualifications, and encouraging others to store value in your creation. These actions are
17:24 < pampuchy> incompetent, dishonest and reprehensibly dangerous.
17:24 < pampuchy> "
17:28 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, everything i wanted to know about SCP could be found by searching for sybil in the document
17:28 < crescendo> 0 results
17:28 < phantomcircuit> it appears only in the related works section which is nothing but advertising
17:29 < phantomcircuit> and i suspect only appears there for the cite
17:30  * gmaxwell larks, I wonder which SCP-wiki SCP best describes stellar.
17:31 -!- binaryatrocity [~atr0phy.n@unaffiliated/br4n] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
17:31 -!- OneNomos [~OneNomos@168.sub-70-193-96.myvzw.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
17:32 -!- binaryatrocity [~atr0phy.n@unaffiliated/br4n] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
17:32 -!- null_radix [Elite7851@gateway/shell/elitebnc/x-iapazrsxnksaipkj] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
17:35 -!- llllllllll [~lllllllll@6d482698.ftth.concepts.nl] has quit []
17:37 -!- pampuchy [~pampuchy@89-71-221-58.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
17:41 -!- OneNomos [~OneNomos@168.sub-70-193-96.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
17:41 -!- nephyrin [~neph@nemu.pointysoftware.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
17:49 -!- Crowley2k [~Crowley2k@93.113.62.93] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
17:52 -!- helo [~helo@unaffiliated/helo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:52 -!- helo [~helo@unaffiliated/helo] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
17:52 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:304:cff8:1580:f97e:41b5:8940:f618] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
17:54 -!- bramc [~bram@99-75-88-206.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
17:54 -!- fanquake [~fanquake@unaffiliated/fanquake] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
18:00 -!- Cornholi0 [Cornholi0@unaffiliated/cornholi0] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
18:01 -!- jtimon [~quassel@189.Red-83-59-238.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
18:05 -!- pampuchy [~pampuchy@89-71-221-58.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
18:11 -!- xenog [~xenog@ip-64-134-44-1.public.wayport.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
18:15 -!- pampuchy [~pampuchy@89-71-221-58.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
18:15 -!- OneNomos [~OneNomos@2600:1005:b12d:f3c4:b5e7:4690:306f:b04f] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
18:20 -!- pampuchy [~pampuchy@89-71-221-58.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
18:22 -!- a5m0 [~a5m0@unaffiliated/a5m0] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.]
18:22 -!- a5m0 [~a5m0@unaffiliated/a5m0] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
18:23 -!- belcher [~belcher-s@unaffiliated/belcher] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
18:24 -!- c0rw1n [~c0rw1n@91.176.85.209] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
18:27 -!- pampuchy [~pampuchy@89-71-221-58.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.1.1]
18:31 -!- xenog [~xenog@ip-64-134-44-1.public.wayport.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
18:37 -!- jhogan42 [~jhogan42@c-67-169-168-179.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com]
18:39 -!- antgreen [~user@CPE687f74122463-CM84948c2e0610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
18:40 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
18:43 -!- zooko [~user@c-71-229-205-98.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
18:44 -!- Quanttek [~quassel@2a02:8108:73f:f6e4:e23f:49ff:fe47:9364] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
18:46 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
18:48 -!- bramc [~bram@99-75-88-206.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
18:48 -!- OneNomos [~OneNomos@2600:1005:b12d:f3c4:b5e7:4690:306f:b04f] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:51 -!- priidu [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
18:52 -!- ryanxcharles [~ryan@2601:9:4680:dd0:ac6e:4e90:9cca:3f08] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
18:52 -!- jhogan42 [~jhogan42@c-67-169-168-179.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
18:54 -!- Burrito [~Burrito@unaffiliated/burrito] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
18:54 -!- gielbier [~giel@f142219.upc-f.chello.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
18:55 -!- bsm117532 [~bsm117532@static-108-21-236-13.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
18:58 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
18:59 -!- skullum1 [Adium@nat/yahoo/x-uelbjhgwyidzknsl] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
18:59 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@c-67-180-192-179.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:59 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@2601:9:3483:2400:558f:8157:d7bb:a95f] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
19:00 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@xd9ba1105.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
19:00 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@xd9ba1105.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Changing host]
19:00 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@unaffiliated/dr-g] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
19:03 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@agh121.anlgh.org] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
19:03 -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@x4d08d12e.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
19:06 -!- p15 [~p15@77.247.178.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
19:11 -!- p15 [~p15@182.50.108.72] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
19:11 -!- p15 [~p15@182.50.108.72] has quit [Client Quit]
19:12 -!- p15 [~p15@182.50.108.72] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
19:20 -!- HostFat [~HostFat@adsl-ull-60-166.42-151.net24.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
19:26 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:304:cff8:1580:f97e:41b5:8940:f618] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
19:32 -!- tdryja [~tx@s186.62.229.222.fls.vectant.ne.jp] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
19:32 -!- tdryja [~tx@s186.62.229.222.fls.vectant.ne.jp] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
19:33 -!- tdryja [~tx@s186.62.229.222.fls.vectant.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
19:40 -!- bsm117532 [~bsm117532@static-108-21-236-13.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host]
19:41 -!- bsm117532 [~bsm117532@static-108-21-236-13.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
19:42 -!- ryanxcharles [~ryan@2601:9:4680:dd0:ac6e:4e90:9cca:3f08] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
19:48 -!- bsm117532 [~bsm117532@static-108-21-236-13.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
19:49 -!- bsm117532 [~bsm117532@static-108-21-236-13.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
19:51 -!- droark [~droark@209-6-53-207.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Later.]
19:58 -!- Crowley2k [~Crowley2k@93.113.62.93] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
20:05 -!- Dizzle [~Dizzle@cpe-72-182-37-46.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
20:06 -!- zooko [~user@c-71-229-205-98.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
20:08 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:304:cff8:1580:287f:d56f:ed25:fb85] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
20:13 -!- satwo [~satwo@unaffiliated/satwo] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
20:15 -!- user7779078 [~user77790@pool-108-30-214-152.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
20:15 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@2601:9:3483:2400:558f:8157:d7bb:a95f] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20:16 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@2601:9:3483:2400:558f:8157:d7bb:a95f] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
20:17 -!- RoboTedd_ [~roboteddy@c-67-180-192-179.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
20:20 -!- RoboTeddy [~roboteddy@2601:9:3483:2400:558f:8157:d7bb:a95f] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
20:24 -!- user7779078 [~user77790@pool-108-30-214-152.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20:25 -!- TheSeven [~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven] has quit [Disconnected by services]
20:25 -!- [7] [~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
20:29 -!- mkarrer_ [~mkarrer@9.Red-83-47-113.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
20:29 -!- mkarrer_ [~mkarrer@9.Red-83-47-113.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20:30 -!- mkarrer_ [~mkarrer@46.Red-79-154-251.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
20:32 -!- mkarrer [~mkarrer@236.Red-176-84-66.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
20:33 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
20:34 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
20:35 -!- DrWat|ZZZzzz [DrWatZZZz@186-107-112-2.baf.movistar.cl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
20:35 -!- DrWat [DrWatZZZz@186-107-109-215.baf.movistar.cl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
20:36 -!- zwischenzug [~zwischenz@va-76-1-146-100.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20:37 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
20:48 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
20:50 < kanzure> i was not aware that the user "contingencies" was from kraken. he was already on my attempt-to-stalk-better list but that never happened.
20:50 < kanzure> anyway here's my attempt at one of the replies https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9345623
20:57 < kanzure> i can't wrap my head around how someone might think "FWIW, here's my take: Bitcoin tries to be too many things to too many people." is a reasonable argument against bitcoin consensus
20:57 < bsm117532> Sounds like it's something better left ignored.
20:58 < kanzure> hardly.. this is a company that has raised $6M in this ecosystem, and is now displaying extremely poor reasoning... alarm bells should be ringing.
20:59 < bsm117532> They wouldn't be the only one.
20:59 < kanzure> are you an optimist
21:00 < bsm117532> I met petertodd in person tonight.  He was going on about a certain well-known company contractually requiring zero conf transactions.  I'll let him elaborate on that if he wants.  But money can be the enemy of reason.
21:01 < kanzure> in new york?
21:01 < bsm117532> Yes
21:01 < kanzure> are you a local?
21:01 < bsm117532> Bitdevs, best bitcoin meetup there is.
21:01 < bsm117532> Yes
21:02 -!- unlord_ [~nathan@pool-173-79-149-156.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
21:03 < kanzure> i will be there later this month
21:03 < bsm117532> Sweet. ;-)
21:03 < bsm117532> I've been floored by the bitcoin activity here.
21:05 -!- unlord [~nathan@pool-173-79-149-156.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
21:05 < moa> bsm117532: paucity or abundance of?
21:05 < bsm117532> abundance
21:06 < kanzure> bitdevs link please?
21:06 < bsm117532> Of course, a lot of it is a big banks and non-software types trying to figure out how to make a privately mined chain...and other nonsense...but I digress...
21:07 < bsm117532> http://www.meetup.com/BitDevsNYC/
21:07 < kanzure> alright
21:07 < bsm117532> Don't bother with the Bitcoin Center NYC.
21:08 < moa> wonder how many of the "big banks and non-software types" have any kind of bitcoin wallet?
21:08 -!- eric [~ericp4@unaffiliated/ericp4] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
21:08 < bsm117532> none.
21:08 < phantomcircuit> bsm117532, i can do that, the mining part will be un-necessary
21:08 < phantomcircuit> but it will do that
21:08 < moa> seems like a market opportunity
21:08 < phantomcircuit> moa, :P
21:08 < moa> heh
21:09 < moa> something for grnadmas?
21:09 -!- helo [~helo@unaffiliated/helo] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
21:10 -!- helo [~helo@unaffiliated/helo] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
21:10 -!- nubbins` [~leel@unaffiliated/nubbins] has quit [Quit: Quit]
21:14 -!- eric [~ericp4@unaffiliated/ericp4] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
21:15 -!- blazes816 [~tylersmit@173.247.206.110] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
21:16 -!- zooko [~user@c-75-70-204-109.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
21:18 -!- tcrypt [~tylersmit@173.247.206.110] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
21:19 -!- satwo [~satwo@unaffiliated/satwo] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
21:19 -!- blazes816 [~tylersmit@173.247.206.110] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
21:20 -!- p15 [~p15@182.50.108.72] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
21:20 -!- adam3us [~Adium@host-92-19-88-129.as13285.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
21:29 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@agh121.anlgh.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
21:30 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@agh121.anlgh.org] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
21:31 -!- AndChat|7049 [~AndChat70@static-108-21-236-13.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
21:31 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
21:33 -!- nemild [~nemild@cpe-74-72-44-76.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
21:33 -!- nemild [~nemild@cpe-74-72-44-76.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit]
21:36 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
22:00 -!- bsm117532 [~bsm117532@static-108-21-236-13.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
22:01 -!- eric [~ericp4@unaffiliated/ericp4] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
22:04 -!- eric [~ericp4@unaffiliated/ericp4] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
22:08 -!- [ace] [~ace@128.199.135.61] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
22:09 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
22:15 -!- p15 [~p15@223.104.3.151] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
22:20 -!- user7779078 [~user77790@ool-4a5987f1.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
22:28 -!- fanquake1 [~fanquake@106-68-92-137.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
22:29 -!- fanquake [~fanquake@unaffiliated/fanquake] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
22:30 -!- Dizzle [~Dizzle@cpe-72-182-37-46.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving...]
22:32 -!- koeppelmann [~koeppelma@agh121.anlgh.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
22:39 -!- jhogan42 [~jhogan42@c-67-169-168-179.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
22:41 -!- arubi_ [~ese168@unaffiliated/arubi] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
22:42 -!- priidu [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
22:43 -!- davispuh [~quassel@212.93.114.156] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
22:47 -!- Mably [~Mably@unaffiliated/mably] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
22:56 -!- b_lumenkraft [~b_lumenkr@unaffiliated/b-lumenkraft/x-4457406] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
22:57 -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
22:59 -!- jhogan42 [~jhogan42@c-67-169-168-179.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
23:07 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
23:16 -!- nivah [~linker@42.116.102.33] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
23:16 -!- phiche [~Adium@193.89.191.209] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
23:24 -!- Mably [~Mably@unaffiliated/mably] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
23:29 -!- fanquake1 [~fanquake@106-68-92-137.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
23:30 -!- SDCDev [~quassel@unaffiliated/sdcdev] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
23:39 -!- fanquake [~fanquake@unaffiliated/fanquake] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
23:40 -!- user7779078 [~user77790@ool-4a5987f1.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
23:41 -!- moa [~kiwigb@opentransactions/dev/moa] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
23:42 -!- arubi_ [~ese168@unaffiliated/arubi] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
23:52 -!- priidu [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
23:56 -!- priidu [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
--- Log closed Thu Apr 09 00:00:47 2015