--- Log opened Thu Apr 09 00:00:47 2015
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10:27 < tdryja> (OT) greg: just wanted to say that post on HN about the cheeseburger and the hand and the door ... that was awesome.  I rofled.
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10:42 < kanzure> hmmm "In SCP the topology is public and conveyed with each consensus packet. So people will be able to tell when the graph is vulnerable."
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10:51 < helo> tdryja: lol, thanks for mentioning that
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10:54 < gmaxwell> tdryja: unrelated, you've seen http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/people/mickens/thesaddestmoment.pdf I hope?   "Gmaxwell's hand is faulty."
10:54 < tdryja> oh the don't want to go to lunch one? yeah that's a great one too
10:54 < tdryja> required reading for anyone working on distributed consensus
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11:10 < fluffypony> "His extensive home collection of “Thundercats” cartoons will not watch itself. Ted is needed, and Ted will heed the call of duty."
11:10 < fluffypony> lol
11:12 < Taek> Are there zkp's that are not probabilistic?
11:13 < gmaxwell> succinctness is incompatible with soundness, (and so is strong (e.g. statistical instead of computational) zero knoweldge).
11:13 < gmaxwell> ), so any compact one is only going to have computational security.
11:14 < Taek> I just mean in a purely theoretical sense, not in any practical sense
11:15 < Taek> it also doesn't have to be general
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11:16 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, the graphics in that paper are very good
11:16 < gmaxwell> It's not theoretically possible for a compact ZKP for NP to exists where false proofs are not at least theoretically possible. (there is a counting-like argument for this).   Oh well if you don't mean for NP.  a schnorr signature is sound, though its secrecy has only computational security.
11:17 < phantomcircuit> they get the point across much better than words can
11:21 < andytoshi> Taek: so a schnorr signature can be made deterministic but not unique ... but BLS signatures are both
11:22 < andytoshi> it's not clear to me that it is a ZKP for anything since its security reduces to CDH, not discrete log
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11:37 < AllieSenbub> rusty should do one about schnorr sig
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11:47 < andytoshi> AllieSenbub: there's a fairly straightforward intuition ... the map x -> xG is linear (more concretely, a field homomorpism) but hard to invert. if you know secret values x and k, you can publish (a, b, ax + bk) without fear, since you have given 3 equations in 4 unknowns (or 1 equation in 2 unknowns; let's pretend a and b are public known constants)
11:48 < andytoshi> AllieSenbub: but using this map x -> xG, you can also publish xG and kG without fear, since it's noninvertible. then the linearity property says that people can check a(xG) + b(kG) = sG
11:48 < andytoshi> so now people can check that ax + bk actually was computed correctly, even though they still can't learn anything about x and k
11:50 < andytoshi> AllieSenbub: now, a schnorr signature is exactly this: x is your secret key, k is chosen randomly for each message, a is the hash of the message and kG (this is actually important for security since it prevents a forger from choosing the message or kG after-the-fact to make the verification equation work; he has to choose both before doing anything else)
11:50 < andytoshi> and b = 1
11:51 < andytoshi> ok, actually, i guess that's worth expanding into a blog post :P
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11:57 < zooko> andytoshi: yes please!
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12:01 < gmaxwell> andytoshi: yea,  "oh the signature is simply just a trivial system of linear equations. encrypted in such a way that you can still check it holds" was such a revelation for me (and left me pissed off at everyone else who'd obfscuated it with technical minutia).
12:03 < andytoshi> gmaxwell: yes, iirc i first heard it from you :)
12:04 < andytoshi> in fact i just got to explain this to one of my crypto students today, he was going through course slides on a simple discrete-log CRHF and it was filled with these kinds of details
12:04 < andytoshi> (well, "it's just linearity
12:04 < gmaxwell> Yea, I dunno if I've ever actually seen it written down that way; though who knows, my memory sucks.
12:05 < andytoshi> (well, "it's just linearity" i got from you .. i think the "uninvertible homomorphism" i came to myself...tho no doubt it was still indirectly you :P)
12:06 < gmaxwell> yea, my 'encrypted' there is vague. you don't need encryption, you need a one way computable map that retains the linearity.
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12:06 < gmaxwell> encryption normally suggests decryption is (efficiently) possible.
12:06 < andytoshi> it's "encryption" to the media, cf every single article about "encrypted passwords" :)
12:09 < zooko> I've learned that it is best to tell investors that SNARKs are "encrypting the transaction information in such a way that…".
12:10 < zooko> Maybe we should just start using "magicking" instead of "encrypting".
12:10 < gmaxwell> zooko: it's not always the best to do that, including that encryption is subject to export regulation in a manner distinct from authentication schemes (and at the blockchain level these are all authentication schemes)
12:11 < zooko> Hm.
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12:12 < gmaxwell> (not that export regs matter for free software; but commercial products bump into them)
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12:13 < gmaxwell> http://johoe.mooo.com/trezor-power-analysis/
12:14 < zooko> NEat.
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12:19 < gmaxwell> http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3213nc/all_trezor_users_should_update_their_firmware_for/cq6v5mv
12:21 < andytoshi> thanks for that gmaxwell :)
12:25 < sipa> gmaxwell: hmm so the goal was resistance to power analysis rater than timing
12:26 < gmaxwell> sipa: can't have power analysis resistance without timing resistance.
12:27 < sipa> uh, sure they are related
12:27 < sipa> but the attack it specifically aims to make harder is a power analysis one
12:28 < gmaxwell> Right.
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12:31 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, technically you could just dump a bunch of power to ground to avoid power analysis
12:31 < phantomcircuit> without actually significantly mitigating timing analysis
12:31 < phantomcircuit> but i suspect that would be harder to get right than fixing the timing analysis issues
12:31 < gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: that generally doesn't solve DPA; I think, but this is getting too analog for my expertise.
12:32  * gmaxwell flies
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12:32 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, with enough capacitance and dynamic power throwing away i think it could be made to "work"
12:32 < phantomcircuit> for lame definitions of work
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12:40 < andytoshi> gmaxwell: i piled onto your comment, so hopefully you aren't the sole bad guy..
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12:53 < andytoshi> lol, i got in trouble for that one..
12:58 < sipa> link?
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13:02 < amiller_> sipa, http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3213nc/all_trezor_users_should_update_their_firmware_for/cq6w2t6  /me popcorn
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13:05 < kanzure> andytoshi: "To be clear, I was doing any sort of code audit here" is not clear, i think you mean "not"
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13:08 < sipa> gmaxwell: so thy claim their wnaf is constant time...
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13:09 < sipa> there is a simpler windowed algorithm that is constant time, but it is not wnaf
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13:10 < zooko> https://twitter.com/martinralbrecht/status/586242276244004867 HT Dcoder
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13:12 < kanzure> .tw
13:12 < yoleaux> Looks like GGH multilinear maps are broken http://buff.ly/1cdVNmK (@martinralbrecht)
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13:30 < Taek> Is anyone in the Boston area that would be interested in doing weekly/bi-weekly mentoring of university students interested in learning cryptocurrency stuff and doing bitcoin/crypto development?
13:30 < Taek> Most of the students would probably MIT
13:31 < kanzure> if they are willing to show up on irc, then yes
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13:34 < Taek> I'm sure we'll be on IRC, it'd be nice to have a meatspace mentor too. We can probably post slide decks, etc. if anything of that sort happens
13:36 < andytoshi> Taek: no, but i will mentor uni students in austin if somebody else does the organizational work
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14:05 < fluffypony> I love Bitcointalk some days
14:05 < fluffypony> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1016517.0
14:05 < fluffypony> "This is trying to get away from doing meaningless calculations like the current 'proof of work' system that btc uses"
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14:07 < tromp> that's a very convoluted way to do proof of stake
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14:40 < Taek> schnorr question: looking at the wikipedia page, x can be 128bits, H() can have 256bit output, k can be 128 bits, s (k - xe) will be 256 bits, and e will be 256 bits? So the signature will be 512 bits?
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14:41 < Taek> and s is likely going to be a negative number?
14:41 < sipa> indeed
14:41 < sipa> negative number do not exist
14:42 < sipa> this is in a modular field
14:42 < Taek> ah
14:42 < sipa> unsure about the 128-bit k
14:43 < Taek> is q=2^128 secure?
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15:04 < ryan-c> anyone know how to calculate the odds of finding N blocks in a row given X% of the networks hash power?
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15:05 < belcher> is it not just X^N ?
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15:07 < ryan-c> I think that's right.
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15:12 < sipa> assuming no latency, yes
15:12 < sipa> or collusion of selfish mining attacks
15:12 < sipa> *or
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15:14 < ryan-c> I'm trying to figure out how to come up with some numbers on feasibility of running attacks against a client that only has block headers with UTXO commitments
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16:25 < moa> ryan-c: double-spend attempts? network isolation? what did you have in mind ...
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19:35 < andytoshi> this made me smile https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=29675.msg11035598#msg11035598 (list of lowest blockhashes, in a thread about it spanning almost 4 years)
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21:17 < bsm117532> Hahaaa given a sufficiently large random string of digits, It's no surprise you found pi in it.  Also decaf is one digit shorter than c0ffee so occurs more often.  And deadbeef is two digits longer so is much more rare. But I'm sure you know this.  ;-)
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23:22 < gmaxwell> sipa: yea they made their WNAF constant time in a subsiquent update from the code I'd been reading by adding a constant time conditional point sign flip.
23:22 < gmaxwell> sipa: it's still not completely constant time due to other (smaller issues).
23:24 < sipa> i read it has a constant number of iterations
23:28 < gmaxwell> Right.
23:29 < gmaxwell> Their code has a unified jacobian add which is different from the one in libsecp256k1.
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23:36 < gmaxwell> It looks like 8mul 3sqr, so probably actually the same with the 1/2+2*sqr for a mul substitution.
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23:37 < sipa> but you're talking about group operations; not exponentiation algorithms
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23:39 < gmaxwell> ... Yes, I switch subjects.
23:39 < sipa> oh ok
23:41 < gmaxwell> Why would I have stayed on the old one! I answered you. :)   Their WNAF is a 'fixed window', it always double four times and either adds or subtracts. The original version of it branched to flip the sign on the stored point for subtraction but the latest has a conditional sign flip (that I didn't look inside, but I assume is constant time).
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--- Log closed Fri Apr 10 00:00:48 2015