--- Log opened Thu Apr 16 00:00:54 2015
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01:10 < fluffypony> awwww they stopped questions just before I got to ask mine, and then the Chainalysis dude bailed right after his speech
01:11 < fluffypony> he spoke about how Bitcoin is Sybil resistant (lol)
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01:21 < justanotheruser> bitcoin is sybil resistant?
01:22 < justanotheruser> or maybe I don't know the context
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01:26 < fluffypony> justanotheruser: he was doing an introduction to Bitcoin
01:27 < fluffypony> the funniest thing was how he spoke about some of Satoshi's design decisions, eg. "fees were only thought to be added late in 2007" or some such
01:28 < fluffypony> and he kept slipping back to saying "we", like "we didn't want to open it up to Sybil attacks"
01:28 < fluffypony> like when him and Satoshi were sitting around the table in the kitchen, trying to decide on a cool name for their product
01:29 < Eliel> fluffypony: what were you going to ask?
01:30 < fluffypony> Eliel: during the Q&A he kept talking about how Chainalysis is helping regulators, and regulators/businesses must just "come talk to them", which made me REALLY want to ask him if they plan on continuing to Sybil attack the network by running nodes that don't relay transactions and aggressively reconnect when banned
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02:02 < mm_> is this related to iacr by anyway?
02:07 < maaku> pigeons: and that repository is not offline....
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02:18 < fluffypony> mm_: which bit?
02:19 < mm_> I need research fund in this field
02:19 < mm_> what should I do
02:20 < fluffypony> which field?
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02:27  * nsh blinks
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02:28 < fluffypony> https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/evan-duffield-dash-darkcoin-dash-will-position-direct-competitor-bitcoin/
02:28 < fluffypony> "Eventually, I believe Dash will position itself as a direct competitor to Bitcoin. In the meantime, Bitcoin enjoys a monopoly more or less on the space, which is unhealthy. For example, if the only crypto-currency in use is Bitcoin and it has an issue, the entire crypto-economy would be affected, burning the vast majority of it’s users. However, if there are 5 or 10 crypto-currencies in common use, it will reduce the systemic
02:28 < fluffypony>  risk on the sector as a whole and make it safer for everyone."
02:28 < fluffypony> I think we need to apply that logic to TCP/IP and HTTP
02:29  * fluffypony invents DashTCP
02:35 < wumpus> the lure of fragmentation :)
02:36 < fluffypony> wumpus: but imagine! Every ISP could have 5 or 10 different edge routers to support the different protocols
02:36 < fluffypony> consumer routers would only support 1 protocol, and would rely on the ISP to translate it into that 1 protocol
02:36 < fluffypony> what a great world they imagine!
02:37 < wumpus> anyhow, the systemic risk argument only makes sense for completely difernt systems, not derivations like darkcoin. And we already have another system: the old fashioned banks.
02:37 < fluffypony> yup
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02:42 < wumpus> <justanotheruser> bitcoin is sybil resistant? <- it has a level of sybil resistance. Essentially as everyone does their own verification, the system only requires one honest node. But it is not entirely invulnerable, e.g. extreme sybil attacks can be used to isolate nodes
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02:45 < sipa> it also gives you a means to measure whether you're seeing the same as everyone else (by measuring the hashrate)
02:45 < fluffypony> which is a far superior consensus system to "receive this from as many peers as possible, and then hope that the majority of them are honest"
02:46 < wumpus> e.g. systems based on voting and majorities are much more sensitive to sybil attacks
02:46 < wumpus> right fluffypony
02:46 < fluffypony> which is how, I think, a lot of "developers" imagine consensus
02:46 < wumpus> sipa: good point
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06:22 < stonecoldpat> Hi - to anyone who had interest in the paper I posted a few days ago about AKE. The technique described is sound and works fine (to best of our knowledge of course). However, Greg did point out an edge case - sighash_single has an implementation bug that allows someone to sign the message '1' in a transaction and this would allow an adversary to produce a signature that would enable
06:22 < stonecoldpat> relay attacks. Thankfully, This implementation bug is detectable (since your signing the number '1' and not the transaction inputs/outputs/script!). Ive already thanked him for pointing this out to me and i'll be updating the paper to include that bug (and as a safety-measure for the future - to be explicit about what needs to be signed for the technique to work).
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06:28 < adlai> stonecoldpat: relay/replay?
06:31 < sipa> was about to say the  same
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06:38 < stonecoldpat> It would have been a relay attack (or at least thats what I would call it). In the sense that Alice has (r_{a},s_{a}), Bob has (r_{b}, s_{b}) and Mallory using the implementation bug could produce (r_{a},s_{m}) and (r_{b},s_{m}) - then he could initiate a conversation with Alice and Bob - sending messages back and forth. He cannot read the messages, but any messages he receives from
06:38 < stonecoldpat> Bob he can pass to Alice, and vice versa.
06:38 -!- aakselrod|2 is now known as aakselrod
06:39  * adlai would call that a Mallory-in-the-Middle
06:39 < stonecoldpat> Without the implementation bug that should not be possible
06:39 < stonecoldpat> haha mallory in the middle then :)
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06:40 < stonecoldpat> with the bug, he can produce any (r,s) and he knows he will sign the message "1" - so can just use the key recovery technique to get a public key that will match up with it
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09:04 < andytoshi> gmaxwell: see the `Use` section of the README on https://github.com/apoelstra/halfsleep :} it's usable now at least for trivial projects
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11:15 < adlai> this is COOL, to the point of shouting... although maybe the readme should say that it's a test-testing methodology :P
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11:30 < andytoshi> hehe, thx :) yeah, the README should generally be much longer and have some more motivation; i need to work on functionality more before i do that tho (like, it doesn't work on member functions, only global ones; and it should be combining the unit tests for mutated functionality since i only need /one/ to fail because of the mutation, not all of them)
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11:34 < andytoshi> ..and it should allow users to register new mutators, etc, though i'm not sure how cleanly i can make that possible
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13:43 < Taek> https://github.com/ethereum/go-ethereum/tree/develop/crypto/secp256k1
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13:44 < Taek> oh jk that's not in golang anyway
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22:26 < xcthulhu> So has anybody else noticed that anywhere between 0% and 33% of the bonded stake in Tendermint doesn’t matter at all?
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22:31 < justanotheruser> xcthulhu: want to elaborate
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22:32 < xcthulhu> Sure.  So the simplest case is you just have 2 guys, a majority shareholder and a minority holder.  If the majority holder has 67% of the stake or more, the minority holder doesn’t matter.
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22:33 < justanotheruser> If you're assuming a majority holder then yeah.
22:33 < justanotheruser> Same with bitcoin and 50% isn't it?
22:33 < xcthulhu> Well, in bitcoin every last watt contributes
22:34 < justanotheruser> what if there are 5 holders not colluding with 67% evenly distributed?
22:34 < xcthulhu> On the other hand, in Tendermint, you’ll have a distribution of bonded stakes resembling a poorly designed voting system.
22:34 < justanotheruser> in the case that someone has 50%, each watt doesn't contribute
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22:35 < xcthulhu> Right, so that’s just the simplest case. To sort of understand a more complex case, it’s worth looking at something like the European union from 1958 to 1973 to see what can go wrong.
22:36 < xcthulhu> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_in_the_Council_of_the_European_Union#Treaty_of_Rome_.281958.E2.80.931973.29
22:36 < xcthulhu> In this particular voting system, no party had a majority.
22:37 < xcthulhu> However, if you look at every possible voting configuration, you’d see that Luxembourg’s single vote actually never actually could change the outcome
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22:37 < xcthulhu> (assuming a majority vote)
22:40 < xcthulhu> Something roughly analgous in Tendermint would be if you had 3 parties - 2 majority holders of roughly similar size constituting >67% of the bonded stake and a minority holder with the rest
22:41 < justanotheruser> why assume 3 parties?
22:42 < xcthulhu> It’s just a simple concrete example to pump intuition.
22:42 < justanotheruser> but does it work without the assumption that two parties will control 2/3 of stake?
22:43 < xcthulhu> In general, I’d expect a Pareto distribution of wealth corresponding to a Gini coefficient between .95 and .99.
22:43 < justanotheruser> I think there are much stronger arguments against tendermint
22:43 < xcthulhu> Even with a nice Gini coefficient of .8, 20% of the stake just won’t matter
22:44 < xcthulhu> I’m vaguely curious, but the fact that voting power is not linearly proportional to stake is pretty damning.
22:45 < xcthulhu> And that combinatorically a substantial portion of the stake is pointless just makes it decentralization theatre.
22:46 < xcthulhu> What’s a better argument?
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22:46 < justanotheruser> the cost of rewriting history
22:47 < xcthulhu> It’s probably easy.
22:49 < xcthulhu> I mean, I know Ethereum is thinking of using Tendermint.  I know from insider information that 80% of the stake is wrapped up in just 12 individuals.  I’m sure they could fork it whatever way they want if they can coordinate.
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22:51 < justanotheruser> 12 "individuals" could probably keep "themselves" in power
22:53 < xcthulhu> Well, yes.  The other 20% of the stake doesn’t matter from a combinatoric perspective.
22:56 < xcthulhu> It’s not really different than a corporation, just less honest.
22:58 < Taek> modern corporations are bound by jurisdictional national laws
22:59 < Taek> which I would argue offers more protection to the average user
23:00 < xcthulhu> Yup.  They have regulations and everything.  There’s nothing stopping the majority stakeholders from being absolutely cutthroat.
23:05 < xcthulhu> (in tendermint)
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