--- Log opened Thu Apr 23 00:00:30 2015 00:01 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@tardis-6.krellan.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 00:04 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@tardis-6.krellan.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:05 -!- Mably [~Mably@unaffiliated/mably] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:06 -!- hktud0 [~ncidsk@unaffiliated/fluffybunny] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:08 -!- hktud0 [~ncidsk@unaffiliated/fluffybunny] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:17 -!- jeremyrubin [~jeremyrub@jeremys-mbp.media.mit.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:19 -!- spinza [~spin@197.89.19.250] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:21 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@tardis-6.krellan.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 00:21 -!- priidu [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:21 -!- mm_0 is now known as mm_1 00:23 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@tardis-6.krellan.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:23 -!- hashtag_ [~hashtag@87-97-113-25.pool.invitel.hu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:24 -!- spinza [~spin@197.89.19.250] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:28 -!- jeremyrubin [~jeremyrub@c-76-118-176-78.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:38 -!- Mably [~Mably@unaffiliated/mably] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:38 -!- moa [~kiwigb@opentransactions/dev/moa] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:45 -!- hashtagg_ [~hashtag@87-97-113-25.pool.invitel.hu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:47 -!- xcthulhu [~mpwd@pine.noqsi.com] has quit [Quit: xcthulhu] 00:48 -!- hashtag_ [~hashtag@87-97-113-25.pool.invitel.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:50 -!- xcthulhu [~mpwd@pine.noqsi.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:55 -!- gielbier [~giel@f142219.upc-f.chello.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:00 -!- Mably [56401ec5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.86.64.30.197] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:02 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@46.197.142.191] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:04 -!- andy-logbot [~bitcoin--@wpsoftware.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:05 -!- andy-logbot [~bitcoin--@wpsoftware.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:05 * andy-logbot is logging 01:14 -!- pollux-bts [uid52270@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-anzgdtlupxdtnoqk] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 01:18 -!- HostFat [~HostFat@adsl-ull-72-66.42-151.net24.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:22 -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@239-196-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:25 -!- rubensayshi [~ruben@91.206.81.13] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:27 < jeremyrubin> Small thought, which I think is interesting re: hardforks on opcode functionality. Staker constructs a txn which releases fee to miner that can be redeemed iff the opcode is changed to the proposed functionality. Once pool large enough, miner has incentive to switch. The thing that interests me about this is that I could go and do this incentive right now, ie let's say I wanted op_and to become op_or, I c 01:27 < jeremyrubin> ould do scripts like: op_dup <1> op_eq op_swap <4> op_eq op_and. If op_and becomes op_or, the txn can be spent. Obviously op_and/op_or would be dumb to swap, but on other opcodes maybe less so... Is there any literature on this kind of deal? Would be interested in the game theory, esp with multiple proposals. "obligatory hardforks are bad" 01:28 < sipa> why do you think miners switching matters? 01:28 < sipa> for a hardfork, you need to convince everyone else 01:28 < sipa> if you don't, miners must switch too, or become obsolete (their blocks would be ignored by the rest of the network) 01:28 < jeremyrubin> A part of this is that there has to be broad enough use demonstrated interest as well (ie to 'stake') the initial txs. 01:29 < sipa> yes 01:29 < sipa> but you are talking about a hard fork, and miners 01:29 < sipa> miners do not matter for a hardfork 01:29 < jeremyrubin> hardfork to 0 block reward? 01:30 < sipa> elaborate? 01:30 < jeremyrubin> (in the extreme case, just demonstrating miners do matter) 01:30 < sipa> a hard fork is any change to the consensus rules that causing something that was previously invalid in a block to become valid 01:31 < sipa> a soft fork is any change to the consensus rules that does not do that 01:31 < stonecoldpat> jeremyrubin: http://hackingdistributed.com/2014/06/19/bitcoin-and-voting-power/ has a good discussion about 51% power vs nodes voting power (I think this is relevant to what your talking about) 01:31 < sipa> for soft forks you need minor majority 01:31 < sipa> *miner majority 01:31 -!- sparetire [~sparetire@unaffiliated/sparetire] has quit [Quit: sparetire] 01:31 < sipa> for hard forks you need everyone (including miners, but also including non-miners, and not just a majority, everyone) 01:32 < sipa> swapping OP_AND with OP_OR would be a hard fork 01:32 < sipa> setting the block payout value to 0 is a soft fork 01:36 < jeremyrubin> ah sure my bad -- I think I should head to sleep, a little delirious right now as it is a bit late(/early) on EDT ;) 01:36 < jeremyrubin> stonecoldpat: thanks for link 01:36 < sipa> if you plan to do a hard fork, and you convince everyone but miners, all you would see is hashpower disappearing (because the existing miner's blocks would become ignored) 01:37 < sipa> if you do not convince everyone, you risk a permanent fork because upgraded and non-upgraded nodes (which may be horrible, leading to coins being spent once on each side of the fork) 01:37 < sipa> so for a hard fork, miners agreement doesn't matter at all 01:37 < sipa> either you have support from "everyone else", and miners are forced to upgraded 01:38 < sipa> or you don't have support from "everyone else", and you risk crippling the network 01:39 -!- xcthulhu [~mpwd@pine.noqsi.com] has quit [Quit: xcthulhu] 01:41 -!- hashtagg_ [~hashtag@87-97-113-25.pool.invitel.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:43 -!- hashtag_ [~hashtag@87-97-113-25.pool.invitel.hu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:44 -!- jtimon [~quassel@41.Red-83-59-233.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:44 < jeremyrubin> sipa: I guess what I'm trying to say I'm interested in 01:45 < jeremyrubin> is that outside of the bounds of an actual proposal for a forking protocol 01:45 < sipa> i think my point is that there is no "forking protocol" 01:45 < sipa> you just convince the world to upgrade, and if you don't end up convincing everyone, things break 01:46 < jeremyrubin> that's a protocol? And there could be ways of convincing people. 01:46 < sipa> sure 01:46 < sipa> war is one 01:46 < jeremyrubin> ;) 01:46 < sipa> if you extend "protocol" to mean things outside of IT infrastrcture, i fully agree 01:46 -!- Mably [56401ec5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.86.64.30.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:46 -!- c-cex-yuriy [uid76808@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-zyoqgdjllwrmepnl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:47 < stonecoldpat> any type of forking like that without full consensus is quite dangerous *in my opinion*, e.g. you could have two parrallel forks in usa and china based on what each country find as acceptable for the protocol - both valid forks, but not really in our interest 01:47 < jeremyrubin> My point is, more broadly, at some level if i put a bunch of "hard fork request" txns on the chain there would be an incentive for miners to do this, even if it is dangerous 01:47 < sipa> why do you keep talking about miners? 01:47 < jeremyrubin> and a user base behind it 01:47 < smooth> what part of miners being totally irrelevant wasn't clear? 01:47 < sipa> i couldn't care less if miners change their code or not 01:47 < stonecoldpat> you could convince miners, but you need to convince people running full nodes as well (otherwise they wont pass on the blocks) 01:48 < sipa> if they don't run the same code as me, i ignore them 01:48 < sipa> more income for the miners that don't voluntarily leave the consensus 01:48 < sipa> stonecoldpat: s/pass on/accept/ 01:48 < sipa> stonecoldpat: relay doesn't evne matter 01:49 < sipa> the point of running a full node is being capable of verying the rules it implements *yourself* 01:50 < sipa> jeremyrubin: assume that today, 60% of miners chance their software to give themselves a perpetual 100 BTC sunsidy per block 01:50 < sipa> jeremyrubin: tell me what would happen 01:51 < jeremyrubin> sipa: I'm not sure. 01:51 < sipa> jeremyrubin: in particular, what would your own full node do? 01:51 < jeremyrubin> sipa: my full node would not recognize their blocks 01:52 < sipa> correct 01:52 < smooth> sipa: what would you call a fork that lowered the reward schedule? 01:52 < sipa> jeremyrubin: what would happen is that the world would see a 2.5x hashrate decrease, and that's all 01:52 < sipa> jeremyrubin: those 60% of miners just voluntarily left the bitcoin consensus 01:52 < jeremyrubin> but I'm trying to think about this from a game theory perspective, so what I'm wondering is if it would be rational for me to recognize the ++reward fork. 01:52 < sipa> and made themselves irrelevant 01:53 < sipa> jeremyrubin: the term you're looking for is economic majority (which is very misleading term, as there is no "majority" to speak of, just economic power) 01:53 < sipa> smooth: that's a soft fork 01:54 -!- CoinMuncher [~jannes@178.132.211.90] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:54 < jeremyrubin> sipa: the security model isn't great though. 60% leave consensus, while using 30% to attack the remaining 40 and 30% to mine with the new reward 01:54 < smooth> sipa: im not sure, don't you need everyone to upgrade in order to enforce such a schedule? 01:54 < sipa> smooth: nope 01:54 < sipa> smooth: just a hashpower majority 01:54 < smooth> sipa: but that's temporary, it can't enforce a future scheule 01:54 < sipa> smooth: so? 01:55 < smooth> so to change the schedule i would say you need to get all the users to upgrade 01:55 < jeremyrubin> smooth: the point is that nothing invalid in past becomes valid. 01:55 < sipa> smooth: yes, i see 01:55 < smooth> jeremyrubin: yes and im questioning whether this deffinition of hard fork is actually the most useful one 01:55 < sipa> smooth: but at any point undoing the change can result in a fork again, if some users did upgrade 01:55 < jeremyrubin> smooth: gotcha 01:56 < sipa> smooth: note that you can enforce every softforking-change as a hard fork 01:56 < smooth> sipa: is this not worse, now you have a majority of miners who can break the network any time they want? 01:56 < sipa> smooth: they can always do that :) 01:56 < sipa> smooth: just have two groups of near equal hash power that don't like each other's blocks 01:57 < smooth> sipa: i suppose by excluding transactions, but even that is only temporary, while creating a permanent fork is different 01:57 < sipa> fair enough, the risk of a permanent fork is only there if part of the userbase upgrades 01:59 < smooth> sipa: likewise it would be quite dangerous for part of the userbase to upgrade. so to make this change 'safely' it has to be done in the same manner as your defition of a hard fork, where 'everyone' upgrades 02:00 < sipa> smooth: yeah 02:00 < sipa> i guess we should talk about two types of enforcement (miner collusion being one, userbase enforcement is another) 02:01 < sipa> softforks are done by first having miners colluding as soon as enough of them indicate support, then doing userbase enforcement 02:01 < smooth> but its very hard to get all users to ever upgrade anything... 02:02 < smooth> it seems in practice this relies on miners never having an incentive to change their minds 02:02 < sipa> well as soon as you have miners that are doing the collusion, users can upgrade at their leisure 02:02 < sipa> this gives miners a power to fork the network 02:02 < sipa> but they always have this power 02:03 < sipa> well, no, that's not true 02:03 < sipa> sorry 02:03 < smooth> the power to fork is much weaker, it requires an exact 50-50 split 02:03 < smooth> miners can block transactions though 02:03 < smooth> essentially breaking the network 02:03 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@unaffiliated/dr-g] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:04 < smooth> although perhaps with some feedback mechanism you could engineer a persistent 50-50 (etc) split 02:04 -!- Mably [56401ec5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.86.64.30.197] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:04 < sipa> yes 02:15 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:16 -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:16 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@unaffiliated/dr-g] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:26 -!- aakselrod [~kvirc@pool-96-253-123-21.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:26 -!- aakselrod [~kvirc@pool-96-253-123-21.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:31 -!- p15x [~p15x@111.193.171.143] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:35 -!- p15_ [~p15@114.248.212.6] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:36 -!- p15x [~p15x@114.248.212.6] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:36 -!- p15 [~p15@182.50.108.79] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:19 -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@239-196-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:44 -!- jeremyrubin [~jeremyrub@c-76-118-176-78.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:48 -!- bsm117532 [~bsm117532@static-108-21-236-13.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:59 -!- mm_1 is now known as mm_0 04:26 -!- c-cex-yuriy [uid76808@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-zyoqgdjllwrmepnl] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 04:31 -!- hashtagg_ [~hashtag@87-97-113-25.pool.invitel.hu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:34 -!- hashtag_ [~hashtag@87-97-113-25.pool.invitel.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:36 -!- hearn [~mike@185.25.95.132] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:37 -!- p15_ [~p15@114.248.212.6] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 04:43 -!- p15 [~p15@182.50.108.20] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:49 -!- mm_0 is now known as mm_1 04:50 -!- hearn [~mike@185.25.95.132] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…] 05:49 -!- bsm117532 [~bsm117532@static-108-21-236-13.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:51 -!- hktud0 [~ncidsk@unaffiliated/fluffybunny] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:52 -!- hktud0 [wq@unaffiliated/fluffybunny] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:58 -!- hearn [~mike@185.25.95.132] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:00 -!- mm_1 is now known as mm_0 06:05 -!- hearn_ [~mike@185.25.95.132] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:05 -!- hearn [~mike@185.25.95.132] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:09 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:15 < kanzure> maybe there's a way where you can use your consensus rules to help sign your verifications 06:15 < kanzure> oh wait, you could always fake that i guess. but presumably if you use a fake signature, and your peer-provided data is invalid, then you're caught 06:18 -!- maraoz [~maraoz@43-161-16-190.fibertel.com.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:25 -!- jgarzik [~jgarzik@unaffiliated/jgarzik] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:25 -!- jgarzik [~jgarzik@104-178-201-106.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:25 -!- jgarzik [~jgarzik@104-178-201-106.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 06:25 -!- jgarzik [~jgarzik@unaffiliated/jgarzik] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:28 -!- cbeams [~cbeams@unaffiliated/cbeams] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:33 -!- mm_0 is now known as mm_1 06:43 -!- hearn_ [~mike@185.25.95.132] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:43 -!- hearn [~mike@185.25.95.132] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:48 -!- JoiIto [~JoiIto@18.85.59.46] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:54 -!- JoiIto [~JoiIto@18.85.59.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:56 -!- hearn [~mike@185.25.95.132] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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host closed the connection] 17:21 -!- Mably [~Mably@unaffiliated/mably] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:28 -!- Emcy_ [~MC@unaffiliated/mc1984] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:56 -!- cdecker [~cdecker@pc-10367.ethz.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:00 -!- belcher [~belcher-s@unaffiliated/belcher] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:02 -!- jhogan42 [~jhogan42@c-67-169-168-179.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:07 -!- cdecker [~cdecker@pc-10367.ethz.ch] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:20 -!- unlord_ [~nathan@pool-173-79-149-156.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:20 -!- jgarzik [~jgarzik@static-host-66-18-60-9.epbinternet.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:20 -!- jgarzik [~jgarzik@static-host-66-18-60-9.epbinternet.com] has quit [Changing host] 18:20 -!- jgarzik [~jgarzik@unaffiliated/jgarzik] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:20 -!- jgarzik [~jgarzik@unaffiliated/jgarzik] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:23 -!- unlord [~nathan@pool-173-79-149-156.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:27 -!- priidu [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:36 -!- jinglebellz [~jinglebel@149.130.161.89] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:38 -!- jinglebellz [~jinglebel@149.130.161.89] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:38 -!- jinglebellz [~jinglebel@149.130.161.89] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:38 -!- Cory [Cory@unaffiliated/cory] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:40 -!- bitbumper [~bitbumper@161.47.143.24.cm.sunflower.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:52 < hulkhogan42o> via flooding, i believe 18:53 < hulkhogan42o> oh, that was hours ago. 18:55 -!- cdecker [~cdecker@pc-10367.ethz.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:00 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@unaffiliated/dr-g] has quit [Disconnected by services] 19:00 -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@x4d08d94e.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:06 -!- cdecker [~cdecker@pc-10367.ethz.ch] has joined 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