--- Log opened Thu May 07 00:00:04 2015
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00:00 < bramc> Back on more important discussions: My trick for doing shuffling doesn't quite work for hold 'em, because it doesn't work for hole cards. Probably the simplest thing would be to support a slightly bastardized version where there can be collisions in the hole cards so flushes are slightly more likely, straights are slightly less likely, and five of a kinds can happen. You can also simplify the discovery of cards by having
00:00 < bramc>  them be collaboratively selected one at a time from the remaining cards
00:01 < pollux-bts> bramc: block production in Bitcoin doesn't seem to be terribly well decentralized based on the number of block producers https://blockchain.info/pools
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00:02 < bramc> pollux-bts, right but they don't have a permanent lock on things like can happen in proof of steak systems, where someone might invisibly and permanently own the whole cow
00:02 < bramc> not to say that that isn't a problem
00:03 < bramc> Nonoutsourcability is a great idea. Of course, not only has noone on reddit heard of nonoutsourcability, there's a very real conspiracy to not let the paper even be formally published.
00:04 < pollux-bts> PoW to produce votes for a round of block production could act as an energy saving mechanism i suppose
00:04 < bramc> pollux-bts, no idea what you mean there. PoW and energy saving don't generally go together
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00:06 < pollux-bts> miners could hash for the right to produce % of blocks in round robin style in intervals. just a random thought.
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00:09 < pollux-bts> i guess though it could still be 'gamed'
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00:12 < bramc> pollux-bts, those tricks basically always lose to grinding attacks, which turn everything back into PoW
00:12 < bramc> unless you're very, very, careful, the limiting factor of any miner will always be electricity used
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00:34 < gmaxwell> oh hey, I've got books on reddit now!
00:34 < fluffypony> bramc: you mean this? http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/28hly9/a_nonoutsourceable_puzzle_to_prevent_hosted_mining/
00:34 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, huh
00:37 < bramc> fluffypony, Yes exactly that
00:38 < fluffypony> that seems to have been fairly well received on Reddit, and there's another thread a month ago on it: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2ytkkt/nonoutsourceable_mining_puzzles_by_andrew_miller/
00:39 < bramc> Oh, well it's good that it's been fairly well received on reddit. It still hasn't been able to be published though
00:40 < bramc> fluffypony, although I'd call that 'didn't receive the usual level of uninformed vitriol' rather than 'well received'. My comment about people on reddit for the most part having no idea what it is still stands.
00:41 < fluffypony> Reddit is a breeding ground for groupthink
00:41 < fluffypony> "this meme is upvoted therefore it is funny"
00:41 < fluffypony> http://natmchugh.blogspot.co.uk/2015/05/how-to-make-two-binaries-with-same-md5.html
00:41 < fluffypony> nice
00:42 < bramc> On slashdot you can change the values of different kinds of upvotes. I found that changing 'funny' from +1 to -5 did wonders for the quality of conversation
00:43 < bramc> although at this point I haven't read any slashdot conversation in literally years
00:43 < bramc> Since the torch of being the internet's sponge has been passed on to reddit.
00:46 < Apocalyptic> fluffypony, nothing new or noteworthy there, http://www.mathstat.dal.ca/~selinger/md5collision/ did it in 2006
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00:46 < fluffypony> Apocalyptic: I know, it's just a nice practical demo to show to people that still think MD5 is fine for verifying binarie
00:46 < fluffypony> *binaries
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00:48 < Apocalyptic> fluffypony, the original page contains a demo as well with two colliding windows and linux binaries
00:49 < gmaxwell> fluffypony: yea, I did one of those to win an argument in #bitcoin in like 2011 or something
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00:49 < gmaxwell> https://people.xiph.org/~greg/message1.txt
00:49 < gmaxwell> https://people.xiph.org/~greg/message2.txt
00:49 < fluffypony> lol
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00:53 < fluffypony> phantomcircuit: he means the little flair icon next to his nick on Reddit, took me a few minutes to figure it out too :)
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00:55 < phantomcircuit> oh
00:55 < phantomcircuit> fluffypony, ha
00:56 < oleganza> gmaxwell: do you mind question about scaling bitcoin using sidechains? I tried to see if we can distribute transactions among hierarchy of sidechains where each additional layer has less hashrate and separate miners (therefore no one needs to validate all transactions in the world), and obviously less valuable transactions (down to "latte payments" on the lowest levels).
00:57 < sipa> oleganza: sounds more like tree chains to me
00:57 < oleganza> However, it looks rather insecure. Because of SPV-only verification (which allows scaling by not looking into txs) allows someone with enough hashrate to not simply double-spend, but actually confiscate coins from lower level into a higher level.
00:58 < oleganza> sipa: is treechain a special case of a sidechain?
00:58 < sipa> no
00:58 < sipa> they are unrelated except by name
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00:58 < oleganza> ok, will check them
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00:59 < sipa> sidechains are not directly a means for improving scalability... they offer a means to experiment with new technology without first building a new currency from scratch
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01:02 < oleganza> sipa: yeah, my second thought was that merge-mined sidechain with experimental currency competes for miners' resources. When there are enough of them, then there's no problem but if Bitcoin txs become constrained, there might be not spare CPU/bandwidth left for experimental chains.
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01:03 < oleganza> and not sufficiently merged-mined sidechain is vulnerable. But for experimental stuff it might be okay.
01:03 < gmaxwell> oleganza: I'm skeptical; for applying 2wp decenteralized sidechains for that issue... the issue with that approach is that .. oh there you go.  There are probably small scaling advantages that can come from hitting a couple different tradeoffs (e.g. giving more room for certian truly low value/risk things).  The better way that sidechains may help with scaling is creating a venue to test the depl
01:03 < gmaxwell> oyment of technology like fraud proofs which improve scaling.
01:04 < gmaxwell> oleganza: there is an approach to launch mined sidechains to prevent the low hashpower insecurity; you make the chain with low hashpower basically switch to a federated signed block system; basically the failure mode is centeralized instead of directly insecure.
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05:29 < instagibbs> Luke-Jr: That link you posted "I'm too tired" is actually quite indicative of the joe-redditor public vs people who have thought about the issues. They are ready and willing to anoint a small class of people who can actually validate the blockchain, as long as their SPV wallets don't freak out and break.
05:30 < instagibbs> They've already given up their vote, so you have to extrapolate to some dire future that they can't imagine because they haven't sat and thought about why it probably isn't ok.
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05:31 < instagibbs> Pointing to Paypal and asking why it isn't the internet money is a starting point maybe.
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06:03 < jgarzik> The "side chains" terminology bugs me (even though I recognize the horse has already left the barn, there)
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06:04 < jgarzik> gmaxwell, maybe Side Chains(tm) doesn't help with scaling.  side chains (uncapitalized) do.  It is far better to put all-the-MSFT-trades on (a) a side chain, rather than (b) an alt-chain disconnected from bitcoin or (c) bitcoin main chain.
06:04 < jgarzik> by side chains (uncapitalized) I include merged mining, chaindb, and any other chain tech (factom?) that stores anchors in the main chain.
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06:08 < instagibbs> What's your reasoning with that jeff? I don't see any scaling advantage with merge-mining alts vs Side Chains(TM) (Assuming that's what you meant)
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06:10 < jgarzik> instagibbs, gmaxwell was brushing away possibly scaling advantages to a main chain+Side Chains system.  I argue there -are- scaling advantages with side chains (a set which includes Side Chains).
06:13 < instagibbs> Are you calling namecoin a side chain? I forget what your definition was :P
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06:19 < jgarzik> instagibbs, correct
06:20 < jgarzik> instagibbs, my definition of side chain is any chain linked to the bitcoin main chain, borrowing the main chain's hash security in some way.
06:20 < jgarzik> that sweeping definition includes Side Chains, merged mined, chaindb and similar efforts.
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06:23 < instagibbs> they all "scale" in certain ways, you just have to reason about centralization pressures. Which is what we really mean naturally.
06:23 < instagibbs> but largely agreed
06:26 < jgarzik> instagibbs, the larger content is addressing projects that want to put all-the-worlds-stock-trades on the main chain.  Addressing those folks, not gmaxwell, I contend side chains are a solution that the main chain is not.
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06:28 < jgarzik> That's scaling comparison being made
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06:29 < jgarzik> Part of the block size debate context is about whether or not we are encouraging people to build on top of bitcoin & blockchain for their projects.  Will businesses and individuals see a scaling limit and simply not bother with bitcoin at all?  That is the big existential question surrounding block size.  Some of those projects are storing non-currency data such as stock trades.
06:30 < jgarzik> Not theory - for a while, Overstock.com was looking to use Counterparty -- an on-main-chain tech -- to handle settlement of their stock trades.
06:32 < jgarzik> Simple raw numbers were beyond the blockchain capacity, for that app alone
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06:32 < instagibbs> Understood. Merge-mined coins give mining centralization pressure, which was mostly my question about what you meant.
06:33 < instagibbs> Questions of security wins aside, Factom/etc sound fine.
06:35 < jgarzik> I sum it all up as the "internet of chains"   Predicting a world where bitcoin is the root of a forest of chains of all shapes, sizes & technologies
06:35 < jgarzik> Economics of security incentivize the root to be bitcoin
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06:40 < instagibbs> *2 years later* oh shit everyone is on a 0.5 second blocktime merge-mined sidechain *it all burns down* (joking.... mostly)
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06:57 < kanzure> jgarzik: it's not just "hash security" that sidechains borrow, but also a sort of security enforced by physical bitcoin currency scarcity as well
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06:58 < kanzure> i have been wondering about what sort of response to give those who argue that even with payment channels that there could only be a finite number of payment channels because transaction inclusion scarcity
06:58 < jgarzik> kanzure, nod
06:58 < kanzure> ultimately i think transaction inclusion could be shifted around between multiple payment channels or hubs
06:58 < jgarzik> ("nod" RE first sentence)
06:59 < kanzure> if you imagine a super-constrained blockchain that only does 10 transactions per block, clearly there can at most be 10 different payment hubs getting their transaction included there... hmm.
06:59 < kanzure> i'm p. sure i'm forgetting a reason why this is not a problem
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07:01 < instagibbs> um, you mean only 5(?) channels could be set up/closed per block
07:01 < StephenM347> kanzure: I believe each hub-spoke pair needs to open their payment channel and close it with a real transaction on the blockchain
07:01 < kanzure> perhaps everyone will just find incentives for merging groups of transactions together, and the transaction fees will compete on the network. so how long can someone jam the network by paying extremely high fees to prevent other hub-aggregate transactions from happening?
07:01 < kanzure> StephenM347: i'm assuming that we can work around that with clever moon math :grin:
07:03 < instagibbs> With the payment channel paradigm you can start talking about "number of entities served" rather than discrete financial transactions. You still have an upper-limite(sans moonmath)
07:03 < kanzure> i would like to eventually see realistic proposals for how to summarize millions, billions and then trillions of daily transactions. clearly we can't have a million payment channels per block.
07:04 < kanzure> or rather, i mean, we can't have a million traditional payment channels per block
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08:07  * fluffypony can't keep up with the mails
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08:09 < kanzure> "please email me directly because i can't keep up with sources x, y, and z".. well, then i doubt redirecting the firehose into your mailbox will increase your personal capacity either.
08:09 < fluffypony> lol
08:11 < fluffypony> I liked Dave Hudson's way of positioning it in knowns vs. unknowns
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08:25 < Luke-Jr> jgarzik: I was trying to encourage "daughter chains" months ago
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08:28 < jgarzik> Luke-Jr, hmmm, maybe child-chain is a decent term, indeed
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08:29 < jgarzik> parent-child relationships are familiar with computer science, and seem to apply here
08:29 < zooko> I always wondered what determined which one was on top.
08:30 < zooko> When I heard about parent and child chains.
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08:30 < Luke-Jr> zooko: the one tokens are coming from
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08:33 < kanzure> that is a good answer
08:37 < jgarzik> the root of security
08:37 < jgarzik> not token-based
08:38 < petertodd> zooko: I prefer comrad-chains and party-member-chains myself, but I am a dirty commie
08:38 < jgarzik> bitcoin can be secured to secure MyAppCoinToken.  If the security is borrowed from the main chain, bitcoin is the parent and MyAppCoin is the child.
08:38 < jgarzik> *can be used to
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08:43 < zooko> Luke-Jr: but tokens can come from both chains and go to the other.
08:43 < zooko> jgarzik: --^
08:43 < zooko> jgarzik: likewise, it seems to me that the two security guarantees are different, perhaps complementary, and probably incomparable, not that one is obviously the parent and the other the child.
08:44 < zooko> No big deal, it doesn't matter much to me what we call them.
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08:47 < jgarzik> zooko, you can create a circular relationship, yes
08:47 < jgarzik> zooko, that structure does not appear when using bitcoin as the root chain
08:47 < jgarzik> zooko, therefore directionality indicates parent/child
08:48 < jgarzik> security from outwards from the root
08:48 < jgarzik> *security flows
08:48 < zooko> Huh. I've been pondering using some side-chains technology, and in my mind one blockchain is neither the sole source of tokens nor the sole source of security.
08:48 < zooko> So I would find it weird to call that one the "parent", but whatever.
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08:48 < zooko> We can at least agree that it is older. ;-)
08:49 < zooko> Anyway, I'm not currently moving ahead with that side-chains work, so it is moot.
08:49 < zooko> Gotta run!
08:49 < jgarzik> zooko, Without the bitcoin main chain, you don't have security
08:49 < zooko> jgarzik: you don't know anything about this putative other chain, right? So you're just asserting that the bitcoin main chain is the only possible thing that has security?
08:51 < jgarzik> zooko, no
08:51 < jgarzik> zooko, I'm asserting it has the strongest security, versus other existing technologies
08:51 < zooko> Okay.
08:51 < jgarzik> security is additive [usually...]
08:51 < zooko> My only objection to the terminology of "parent and child" is that people may have different opinions about which chain has the most or best kind of security.
08:52 < zooko> If we just use symmetric terminology, then we can keep the terminology separate from those opinions.
08:52 < jgarzik> I arbitrarily declare the terminology works for me ;p
08:52 < zooko> :-)
08:52 < zooko> Gotta run!
08:52 < zooko> Cheerse.
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09:02 < azariah> Can one use this for the point mult of pubkey and privkey to get shared secret in ECDH? https://github.com/bitcoin/secp256k1/blob/master/src/scalar.h#L49
09:04 < azariah> would like to use it to replace http://golang.org/src/crypto/elliptic/elliptic.go?s=6555:6639#L240  for performance, but unsure what format/encoding the public key (x,y) point should be in that case
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09:09 < sipa> azariah: no, that is just scajar multiplication; you need group multiplication
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09:13 < Luke-Jr> someone raised the point that we could go ahead with the scheduled 20 MB hardfork today, and decide next January what lower limit to softfork it to; I think this isn't a terrible idea; others' thoughts?
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09:14 < sipa> except you need miner cooperation for a softfork
09:14 < sipa> specifically, only a majority of them
09:15 < Luke-Jr> sipa: only partly. if the softfork is 2 months before the scheduled hardfork, lots of nodes will have upgraded to ~0.13 before miners could exploit it
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09:23 < deego> Don't most drastic proposals go through BIPs and the ensuing peer review? Was there a BIP created for the proposed block size increase?
09:24 < deego> gavinandresen: ^^
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09:26 < azariah> sipa: ah cool, so secp256k1_ecmult ? if so, what secp256k1_context_t would make sense for usage in generating secret in ECDH?
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09:26 < jgarzik> deego, in general yes
09:27 < gavinandresen> deego: best process for BIP is:  write code, convince yourself it works. Get consensus, let other people run/examine your code. THEN formalize it in a BIP, do a pull request, etc...
09:27 < jgarzik> deego, however the technical aspects of the change are pretty simple, and a BIP would take two seconds to write
09:27 < deego> ah
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09:27 < jgarzik> deego, the "IETF way" prefers code first
09:27 < sipa> azariah: rtfm
09:28 < sipa> azariah: however, ecmult is not constant time, and has no side channel attack protections
09:28 < deego> thanks
09:28 < Luke-Jr> gavinandresen: well, [part of] the point of BIPs is peer review; so don't put it off until you'd be disappointed if people suggest changes..
09:29 < sipa> azariah: so it would not be the best choice for ECDH, where the passed in scalar is secret
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09:30 < deego> yeah, wanting to ask what Luke-Jr said. Wouldn't a BIP and ensuing peer discussion be a proper forum than this public popularity contest?
09:30 < deego> .. among redditors and people like me who don't understand any of this.
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09:31 < azariah> sipa: ok, that's good to know. couldn't find manual / docs in the repo, is some available elsewhere?
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09:32 < theymos> Luke-Jr: How would a softfork block size decrease work? If you're just trusting that miners won't build off of too-large blocks, then that's basically letting miners do whatever they want. If nodes ignore the too-big block, then that's a hard fork. If they accept it locally but refuse to relay it, then I think this breaks global convergence to a single chain.
09:32 < deego> (I get it that the /mechanics of the change/ is rather trivial, like jgarzik said.)
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09:34 < sipa> azariah: all comments about usafe are in secp256k1.h
09:34 < gavinandresen> deego: peer review is happening now on the bitcoin-development list, same place a BIP would be discussed.
09:34 < deego> gavinandresen: ah, glad to hear that.
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09:36 < Luke-Jr> theymos: the same way any softfork works: nodes update making the rules more strict, and as long as >50% of miners are included in this, the old clients will converge as the now-invalid blocks are found stale
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09:41 < theymos> Luke-Jr: So would that softfork down to a lower size become permanent rule after it's enforced by miners? Bring it to 20 MB, see if this significantly increases spam, and reduce it if necessary?
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09:43 < Luke-Jr> theymos: well, to be effective, the reduction needs to occur before the increase takes effect
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09:43 < Luke-Jr> but it would mean we could make the final decision ~2 months before the change, rather than 1 year out
09:44 < theymos> Oh, I see.
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09:45 < theymos> Seems like a good option to keep in mind.
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09:53 < azariah> sipa: cool, thanks for the help!
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11:03 < amiller> does anyone know if there have been any altcoins that "schismd"?
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11:03 < amiller> as in, didn't death spiral, didn't just have someone make a clone of their code, but actually split into two separate networks where people who originally had coins now each have a coin on each of the separate views
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11:05 < kanzure> does testnet1, testnet2 and testnet3 count?
11:05 < amiller> hm
11:06 < amiller> if that's the best example, then maybe
11:06 < amiller> i wonder if you can have a coin that can merge mine forks of itself
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11:29 < Luke-Jr> amiller: if you could do that, wouldn't you introduce the nothing-at-stake problem somewhat (despite it being PoW)?
11:30 < amiller> yes i think so
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11:33 < jgarzik> amiller, can't think of any examples.  the "keep 50 BTC forever" fork lasted a few days
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11:48 < stonecoldpat> amiller: ive been having a similar thought recently - but more to do with the future of bitcoin and countries trying to regulate it - so countries enforce their own fork of the blockchain - so 2, 3 or 10 are running parallel
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11:54 < stonecoldpat> so if u lived in country A and wanted to visit country B, would u need to purchase coins from their fork before visiting - although as a disclaimer these are merely thoughts i have on the train
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--- Log closed Fri May 08 00:00:05 2015