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03:53 < jgarzik> hah
03:53 < jgarzik> "Incredibly Depressing Mega Millions Lottery Simulator!" http://www.cockeyed.com/citizen/poker/lottery_simulator100.php
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03:55 < lmatteis> jgarzik: that domain is cool
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03:59 < gmaxwell> lmatteis: the more recent stuff has been less fun; the old pranks are pretty good.
03:59 < waxwing> "In the 1470990 times this simulation has run, players have won $29757157"
03:59 < gmaxwell> neat simulator though. :P
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09:19 < hulkhogan_> following the list discussion has been the biggest learning experience since i got into bitcoin, esp seeing 'the process' happen in real-time, instead of reading about it later..
09:19 < hulkhogan_> hats off there !
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14:25 < amiller> shots fired in the world of snarks
14:25 < amiller> https://eprint.iacr.org/2015/437
14:26 < amiller> it seems like when the SCIPR team made optimizations on the original GGPR snark protocol, they introduced an optimization that wrecks the entire scheme
14:26 < amiller> "the protocol does not appear in that peer-reviewed paper; instead, it appears only in a technical report, where it is justified via a lemma that lacks a proof. Unfortunately, the lemma is incorrect, and the modified protocol is unsound. With probability one, an adversary can submit false statements and proofs that the verifier will accept."
14:27 < kanzure> neat
14:27 < kanzure> i wonder how incorrect it is
14:28 < amiller> well, seems like it's pretty dangerously incorrect, but also fixable
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14:28 < amiller> "libsnark authors are developing a patch.... Preliminary performance results suggest that for applications with small IO relative to the computation, the performance impact is quite small"
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14:38 < gmaxwell> Good thing no one wanted to build something with unboudned undetectable inflation based on that.... :)
14:39 < gmaxwell> amiller: is the problem related to vanishing inputs?
14:39 < gmaxwell> (like you pass in zeros and end up with a zero proof which is trivially true?)
14:41 < gmaxwell> (I ask because the comment about IO and that input consistency validation was something I didn't really get)
14:44 < amiller> i dunno, the high level idea is that the scipr optimization ensures that some set of polynomials is distinct
14:44 < amiller> but actually what's required is to show that the set of polynomials are all linearly independent, and their optimization doesn't guarantee that
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15:20 < nsh> hm
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16:46 < nsh> what's the d-PKE assumption?
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16:48 < nsh> power knowledge of exponent
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17:01 < nsh> Final Report on Main Computational Assumptions in Cryptography -- http://cordis.europa.eu/docs/projects/cnect/6/216676/080/deliverables/001-DMAYA6.pdf
17:02 < nsh> seems strange that PKE isn't reducable to another problem
17:02 < nsh> and someone states elsewhere that it's not falsifiable
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17:45 < gmaxwell> nsh: I've mentioned that here before.
17:45 < nsh> oh?
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17:48 < gmaxwell> It the non-falsifiable problems generally apply fairly generally for succinct ZKP.
17:48 < gmaxwell> Relevant paper; https://eprint.iacr.org/2010/610.pdf
17:49 < nsh> ty
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18:03 < gmaxwell> nsh: the paper is dense IIRC; but the whole idea reduces to a kind of trivial idea (if I remember it correctly).
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18:04 < gmaxwell> Basically say you have a block box that produces false proofs for a system;  you want to use this to show that some underlying hard problem is not really hard (e.g. by using the black box to solve the hard problem). This is the normal black box reduction approach.
18:05 < gmaxwell> They show that a succinct ZKP can be totally busted, and you can have an efficient attacker in a black box; and yet may still not be able to show any particular underlying hard function is insecure;  because the black box may only produce false proofs for NP statements so complex that no one could possibly verify them; so you can't actually tell if the false proofs are false proofs.
18:06 < gmaxwell> And so you cannot get an unconditional reduction where access to a blackbox false proof maker is guararenteed to tell you anything useful at all.
18:06 < gmaxwell> Or at least that was my understanding of it.
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18:08 < gmaxwell> There is of course much more to formalize and complete the argument. I also think it had a limit that it doesn't hold if basically P==NP or if all cryptographic assumptions are actually false. :)
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19:03 < kanzure> "The problem with this implementation is you can still drive the block size up easily and in not that much time. So block congestion is still a tool for the resource rich. A self-scaling method will require the block size to be able to go both ways. We basically need a formula that helps incentivize miners to keep the block size as small as possible while still allowing it to increase. Or put another way, one that punishes miners for ...
19:03 < kanzure> ... submitting larger blocks relative to the current max by reducing the next valid block size by some proportion of max / current block size (probably not a linear one). As TX fees become a larger percentage of miner revenue, miners will value scarcity in the block anyway, so ultimately we need a way to punish the network for more transactions. We know that miners still indirectly value more transactions because more transactions ...
19:03 < kanzure> ... implies more adoption, which implies more demand for BTC, which implies a better exchange rate. There's a way to balance these things, we just have to figure it out."
19:03 < kanzure> from http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/35ao1e/xyz/cr2q1ft
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20:09 < maaku> kanzure: that sounds somewhat familiar....
20:11 < kanzure> oh was that you
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20:13 < maaku> no it wasn't, but he's basically asking for the exact thing I posted to the list within an hour or so of his reddit comment
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22:34 < amincd_> criticism welcome: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/35d9ek/the_scalability_triangle_we_can_have_two_of_three/
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