--- Log opened Sat May 16 00:00:13 2015
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00:37 < amincd> phantomcircuit: if you have any sources that confirm these are Bitcoin's security assumptions, I'd appreciate it: "to maintain the security model under which bitcoin operates ... the economic majority must run full validating nodes"
00:38 < amincd> I looked through the white paper and there's nothing about the economic majority runing a full validating. I don't see why the majority of the economic majority couldn't rely on a trusted third party for validation
00:40 < amincd> and they do not even have to trust a TTP: just the 'honesty' of the hashing majority
00:40 < amincd> s/runing a full validating/running a full validating node/
00:41 < phantomcircuit> amincd, re-read it
00:41 < phantomcircuit> try the second sentence
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00:43 < amincd> Trusting the hashing majority IS Bitcoin's model
00:45 < phantomcircuit> amincd, ... bitcoin has an incentives model to compel the hashing majority to do what the full nodes want
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00:47 < amincd> to do what the economic majority wants..
00:47 < phantomcircuit> and there you go
00:47 < phantomcircuit> full circle
00:47 < amincd> that's only if you accept some assumptions that you're making
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00:57 < amincd> namely that an individual cannot get actionable information about miner misconduct without running their own full node
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01:04 < amincd> the idea of everyone running a validating node so that they don't have to trust anyone for anything is an absolutist security model, which is a departure from Bitcoin's probabilistic security model. It's highly improbable that information about miner collusion to subvert the rules of Bitcoin won't rapidly find it's way to every corner of the economic majority
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01:04 < amincd> even if only a minority are running full validating nodes
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02:04 < smooth> amincd: the whitepaper says "One strategy to protect against this would be to accept alerts from network nodes when they detect an invalid block, prompting the user's software to download the full block and alerted transactions to confirm the inconsistency" but no such mechanism exists
02:04 < smooth> there is nothing probabilistic about verification
02:04 < smooth> you're confusing the mining part of the system with the entire system
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02:10 < amincd> True, verification is not probabilistic, but Bitcoin's overall security model rests primarily on the probabilistic security provided by the cumulative proof of work generated by miners
02:11 < amincd> ^ smooth
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02:11 < amincd> SPV clients take the principle of relying on probable security even further
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02:18 < smooth> amincd: i would ask you the same question you asked: Where does it say that the "security model" relies on PoW. PoW is used to determine ordering of transactions, but "security model" is a bit more than that
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02:22 < amincd> smooth: it does rely more than just on PoW, but it relies primarily on the probability that the accumulation of PoW provides that a block will not be replaced as new blocks are generated on top of it, and this in turn relies on the probability that >50% of the network hashrate will be honest. As for where in the white paper it says it:  "We will show later that the probability of a slower attacker catching up diminishes expon
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02:23 < smooth> amincd: where does it say "primarily"? That is your opinion, in my opinion
02:23 < amincd> smooth: well, I can't argue with your opinion
02:24 < smooth> it relies ENTIRELY on PoW to determine ordering
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02:24 < smooth> as for the rest, im not so sure. For exapmple, the inability of others to spend my coins is not reliant on PoW, it is reliant on signatures
02:25 < amincd> smooth: true, but for the sake of simplicity, I left that out, as the security of signing is orthogonal to the ease of running a full node
02:27 < amincd> smooth: maybe I've over stating the relative importance of PoW's probabilistic security to Bitcoin's overall security model, but it is undoubtedly an essential part of it
02:28 < smooth> amincd: certainly it is essential, but saying "primarily" or minimizing other elements such as independent verifiability, I'm just not sure the basis of that
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02:32 < amincd> smooth: I'll grant that the notion that it's "primarily" based on PoW is arguable.
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11:59 < dgenr8> when I receive a payment, I decide what chain to look at for confirmation.  my decision is quite important to the person who paid me, my running a full node is not material to him, and it's my decision how material it is to me
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--- Log closed Sun May 17 00:00:14 2015