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09:23 < Taek> One of the big things I don't like about merged mining + sidechains is that the security model is much weaker if your chain isn't funding the majority of the mining
09:23 < Taek> And one of the problems with larger blocks is that validating becomes expensive
09:24 < Taek> One of the ways to approach this problem is to have 20 parallel utxo sets in the blockchain
09:24 < Taek> each set permitted 1mb of transactions in each block
09:25 < Taek> and some form of sidechains implementation to move coins between the utxo sets
09:25 < Taek> You end up with 20mb as the maximum blockchain size, but people can now hold all of their coins in only 1 of the 20 sets
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09:25 < Taek> and then they can validate that set and ignore all of the others
09:26 < Taek> The improvement to merge mining comes in from a new consensus rule
09:26 < Taek> once a valid set of transactions is in a 20mb block, it can't be reorg'd unless you completely reorg the whole system
09:27 < Taek> so, instead of 20 blockchains, it's just 1 blockchain, but with 20 utxo sets
09:27 < Taek> Since you are only validating 1 set, there's a chance that the other sets have invalid transactions
09:28 < Taek> if a block appears that has invalid transactions for your utxo set, you just ignore the transactions for that set
09:28 < Taek> but the block as a whole is still valid
09:28 < Taek> this makes SPV trickier to implement, but I think it's still possible to have SPV nodes (you might need an additional consensus rule about miners committing to which prior blocks have been valid)
09:29 < Taek> There might be a way to improve on everyone needing to d/l the 20mb blocks as well
09:29 < zooko> Hiya Taek! Nice to meet you IRL.
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09:30 < Taek> hey zooko! I enjoyed chatting
09:30 < Taek> The only reason that you need to d/l the whole block is to be certain that none of the data is being withheld
09:31 < Taek> as the security model breaks if someone can hide a valid portion of the chain
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09:31 < Taek> Previous discussions with gmaxwell suggest that there might be ways to avoid needing to download the entire 20mb block while still having high certainty that no data is being withheld
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09:56 < Taek> I'm curious if the above idea is something worth putting on the mailing list
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10:44 < zooko> https://leastauthority.com/blog/a_bug_in_libsnark.html
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10:57 < Luke-Jr> zooko: so is this a Zerocash softfork? (was Zerocash actually released in some form?)
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11:54 < theymos> Taek: That's a bit like tree chains, isn't it?
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11:55 < theymos> Taek: I'm also not confident that merge-mined sidechains will be particularly useful if any big Bitcoin pool can destroy them at will almost for free.
11:56 < kanzure> well they are giving up the opportunity to mine for other things during that time
11:56 < kanzure> i mean during the time that they are attacking
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11:56 < kanzure> (depending on how weak the target is)
11:57 < Taek> it's not a huge sacrifice though, b/c they are still getting the rewards from the majority chain. It's even more significant if they can merge-mine many chains at once.
11:57 < Taek> then their only opportunity cost is the reward on the chain they are attacking
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12:02 < kanzure> they only get the rewards from the majority chain if they are actively mining
12:02 < kanzure> oh merge-mining an attack? hm
12:03 < Taek> right
12:04 < Taek> especially if you're including behaviors like bribes, a coin with a very small reward doesn't require much of a bribe to convince a pool to attack-mine or just not mine.
12:07 < Taek> that ceases to be a problem in my 'merged block' scheme, because reorging any set of transactions requires reorging every set of transactions - you lose out on the rewards of the majority chain as well as the rewards on the minority chain
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12:16 < theymos> Instead of doing PoW on sidechains, I wonder if you could do something like this: After creating a new sidechain block without any PoW, broadcast or mine a transaction on the Bitcoin network with an OP_RETURN output containing some sidechain-identifying leading info and the sidechain block hash. The real next block in the sidechain is the first such transaction listed in a Bitcoin block. The Bit
12:16 < theymos> coin network already keeps track of ordering, so don't allow reorgs on the sidechain without reorgs on the Bitcoin chain.
12:18 < Taek> what is the sidechain identifying leading info? That is very important
12:19 < Taek> If it's just a hash, someone could hide a different reorg in the bitcoin chain, and then reveal it
12:19 < Taek> if there's some identifying prefix, someone could release a prefix followed by a nonsense hash, and you have to figure out how to choose which entries to ignore
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12:20 < theymos> Ah, good point.
12:22 < theymos> Maybe this particular idea doesn't work then, but I feel like if possible it'd be better to do sidechain-type stuff without any additional PoW (including merged mining) by attaching sidechain stuff more tightly to Bitcoin blocks, in this general vein.
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12:47 < fluffypony> theymos: that's basically what we're going to do be doing with some of the Monero daughter-chains, no coinbase and more tightly coupled to the mainchain, with nodes being able to advertise what additional chains they serve
12:47 < fluffypony> but then it's less of an "anyone can make a chain!" thing, and more of a "hallowed be thy blessed other-chains"
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14:11 < Luke-Jr> fluffypony: Monero daughter-chains for Bitcoin, or within Monero?
14:12 < Luke-Jr> theymos: also to consider, what if it's an invalid sidechain block
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14:21 < fluffypony> Luke-Jr: within Monero
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--- Log closed Mon May 18 00:00:15 2015