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[~Adium@p50895E25.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has left #bitcoin-wizards [] 01:51 -!- fanquake1 [~fanquake@220-253-174-36.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:54 -!- adams__ [sid73416@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ncslmasxflrjmhxq] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:55 -!- adams__ [sid73416@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bfpqahupbrkhnent] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:58 < nsh> -- 01:58 < nsh> fod, thanks. however that doesn't seem to go beyond what's already shown at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montgomery_curve#Equivalence_with_twisted_Edwards_curves . I'm looking for a way to directly convert projective Twisted Edwards to/from to projective Montgomery, ideally without field inversions. My plan is to convert to montgomery, do scalar multiplication with its arithmetic and convert back to twisted edwards in the end. 01:58 < nsh> nsh, is there a more appropriate for ECC related questions? 01:58 < nsh> [..] 01:58 < nsh> but djb, et al. use affine coordinates there, which is probably okay if you're interested in showing the birational equivalence...however in practice for performance reason most use projective coordinates, also shown in the paper for twisted Edards, and X/Z coordinates for Montgomery curves 01:58 < nsh> -- 01:58 -!- luny [~luny@unaffiliated/luny] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:59 < nsh> all seems relatively well-discussed here: http://crypto.stackexchange.com/questions/14957/how-do-i-convert-the-definition-of-e-521-into-a-curve-definition-a-la-bouncy-cas 01:59 < nsh> assuming you read moonmath at an elementary level 02:01 -!- KuDeTa [~KuDeTa@souh-ss0-ip1.network.virginmedia.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:01 -!- KuDeTa 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frankenmint [~frankenmi@c-24-22-67-17.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:51 -!- fanquake1 [~fanquake@115-166-9-113.ip.adam.com.au] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:51 -!- p15x_ [~p15x@111.193.169.120] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:51 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@85.100.40.253] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:52 -!- p15x [~p15x@182.50.108.94] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:54 -!- fanquake [~fanquake@unaffiliated/fanquake] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:00 -!- p15x_ [~p15x@111.193.169.120] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 06:02 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@85.100.40.253] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:04 -!- p15x [~p15x@182.50.108.48] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:07 < CoinMuncher> Possibly interesting paper for libsecp256k1 and/or Trezor developers? http://www.cosic.esat.kuleuven.be/publications/article-2475.pdf "The main advantages of the threshold implementation approach are that it provides provable security against first-order DPA attacks with minimal assumptions on the hardware technology, in particular, it is also secure in the presence of glitches, ..." 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[~GGuyZ@50-205-143-34-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:38 -!- Guest11561 is now known as amiller 13:38 -!- xenog [~xenog@193.120.165.166] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:38 -!- amiller [~socrates1@li175-104.members.linode.com] has quit [Changing host] 13:38 -!- amiller [~socrates1@unaffiliated/socrates1024] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:38 < KuDeTa> what do the wizards make of 21inc? 13:39 -!- Quanttek [~quassel@ip1f10af17.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:40 -!- deego [~user@unaffiliated/deego] has left #bitcoin-wizards ["ty"] 13:42 -!- shen_noe [~shen_noe@75-162-198-81.slkc.qwest.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:46 -!- alferz [~alferz@unaffiliated/alfer] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:50 < Taek> I can't speak for anyone else but I've found it difficult to understand what they are doing and why it's worth so much money 13:51 < Taek> without knowing more, it's difficult to pass judgement 13:53 < hulkhogan_> it almost sounds like they've created a cutting edge asic, and are using mobile as the distribution mechanism. 13:54 < hulkhogan_> its too hard to say without details 13:55 < Taek> mobile is a really weird choice. Your average phone battery has a hard enough time as is 13:55 < Taek> unless their power efficiency is an order of magnitude better than anything else out there, I don't see how mining from a phone could be profitable 13:56 < hulkhogan_> yea, thats my guess- otherwise it doesnt make sense at all (also the amount of money they raised, so they must be on to something (?)) 13:56 < KuDeTa> perhaps its more about the wallet technology, and the mining is over-egged. A hardware wallet in every device on the planet.. 13:57 < Taek> That makes more sense. Especially if they've reduced the power requirements of running a pruned node. 13:58 < hulkhogan_> they sorta stated wanting to use the tech as a revenue model for 'pay-as-you-go' services, so you mine in the bknd and pay as you consume content (or whatever) to the distributor 13:58 < Taek> maybe they meant by using payment channels? Again I don't see how a phone battery could mine enough bitcoins to 'pay as you go' 13:59 -!- alferz [~alferz@unaffiliated/alfer] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:59 < hulkhogan_> me neither, but if you read the medium announcement, they allude to that a couple times iirc 14:00 -!- shen_noe [~shen_noe@75-162-198-81.slkc.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:01 -!- zooko [~user@74-95-207-205-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:01 < temujin> mining while your phone is charging most likely 14:01 < hulkhogan_> ie "one can imagine the ultimate thin client [...] using the bitcoin generated therein to purchase computation in the cloud." 14:01 < temujin> overnight and after work, can be 8-14 hours depending on your lifestyle patterns 14:02 < Taek> I'd definietly be more interested in an asic that heats my home or water tank 14:02 * nsh blinks 14:03 < nsh> capitalism is stupid 14:03 < hulkhogan_> lol 14:03 < Taek> what specifically? 14:03 < frankenmint> nsh: name a superior system 14:03 < frankenmint> i implore you to 14:04 < nsh> so a bunch of people with smartphones are going to perform a bunch of calculations that are essentially useless so they can buy imaginary items while presumably accidentally also paying for said items with their linked payment card 14:04 < frankenmint> nsh: you must be talking about 21inc 14:04 < nsh> or else somebody else has an incredibly optimistic business model 14:04 * nsh nods 14:04 * frankenmint agrees that is a doomed model 14:04 < nsh> i mean, capitalism is stupid in general, but this is a particularly perplexing example 14:04 -!- alferz [~alferz@unaffiliated/alfer] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:04 < nsh> .ety perplex 14:04 < yoleaux> perplex (v.): "late 14c. as an adjective, "perplexed, puzzled, bewildered," from Latin perplexus "involved, confused, intricate;" but Latin had no corresponding verb *perplectere. The Latin compound would be per "through" (see per) + plexus "entangled," …" — http://etymonline.com/index.php?term=perplex 14:05 < frankenmint> I think the other models allow for gains to be taken from earners 14:05 < frankenmint> which is why all other systems have gradually migrated to captialism 14:06 < nsh> (almost certainly outwith channel scope) 14:06 < frankenmint> the next system volunteerism is still too young and experimental, but I can see it increasing if proven models can indeed transition its users towards a 'utiopia' state 14:07 < hulkhogan_> gime morr cripto 14:07 < frankenmint> hulkhogan_: google DASC reddit, see my answer 14:08 < frankenmint> nvm not indexed yet 14:08 < frankenmint> http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/368k9d/how_to_prepare_for_possible_future_bitcoin_career/crc9j6z 14:10 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:11 -!- afk11 [~thomas@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/afk11] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:11 -!- shen_noe [~shen_noe@75-162-198-81.slkc.qwest.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:11 < hulkhogan_> frankenmint: eh, i think nsh's comment was out of context, the weirdness of 21inc's plan is very left-field given what we know about mining economics 14:12 < hulkhogan_> (unrelated to capitalism etc, its partly or wholly nonsensical) 14:12 < hulkhogan_> s/nonsensical/nonsensical given what we know/ 14:12 -!- afk11 [~thomas@46.7.4.219] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:14 < frankenmint> I just dropped by reddit today and now see its everywhere 14:14 < frankenmint> lol, so basically everyone knew from jump about it once they said quallcomm 14:15 < frankenmint> hulkhogan_: really sucks, If it wasn't 'a phone' I may give it a shot, but because its gonna be near my head and asic chips run hot ....forget that 14:16 -!- shen_noe [~shen_noe@75-162-198-81.slkc.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:16 -!- belcher [~belcher-s@5ec18b49.skybroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:16 -!- belcher [~belcher-s@5ec18b49.skybroadband.com] has quit [Changing host] 14:16 -!- belcher [~belcher-s@unaffiliated/belcher] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:17 -!- GGuyZ [~GGuyZ@50-205-143-34-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: GGuyZ] 14:19 -!- hashtag [~hashtag@cpe-69-23-213-3.ma.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:20 < hulkhogan_> yea, lol 14:21 < frankenmint> I could turn this all around right now for them: Make the phones and service free If user agrees to keep them on X hours per month 14:22 < frankenmint> basically once the device 'roi's itself 2x over, then its elegible for an upgrade 14:22 -!- hashtag [~hashtag@cpe-69-23-213-3.ma.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:23 < Taek> Assuming $30 per user 14:23 < Taek> that scales to ~800k users at todays prices 14:23 < frankenmint> yea right unless we're talking feature phones 14:23 < Taek> beyond that there aren't enough bitcoins that can be mined to pay for so many phone bills 14:23 < frankenmint> well, i guess, if they're free that wont matter??? 14:24 -!- p15x [~p15x@114.244.158.151] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 14:24 < frankenmint> lol oh God imagine how THIS would blow up: http://www.reddit.com/r/perktv 14:24 -!- p15 [~p15@114.244.158.151] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 14:24 < frankenmint> 21 inc phone farms to mine passive + btc 14:25 -!- p15x [~p15x@114.244.158.151] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:26 -!- p15 [~p15@114.244.158.151] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:26 -!- GGuyZ [~GGuyZ@50-205-143-34-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:38 -!- temujin [2679a51e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.38.121.165.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:39 -!- b_lumenkraft [~b_lumenkr@unaffiliated/b-lumenkraft/x-4457406] has quit [Quit: b_lumenkraft] 14:43 -!- jtimon [~quassel@172.56.16.229] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:45 -!- shen_noe [~shen_noe@75-162-198-81.slkc.qwest.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:46 * nsh frowns 14:48 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:49 -!- jgarzik [~jgarzik@unaffiliated/jgarzik] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 14:51 -!- jgarzik [~jgarzik@unaffiliated/jgarzik] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:51 -!- shen_noe [~shen_noe@75-162-198-81.slkc.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:53 -!- shen_noe [~shen_noe@75-162-198-81.slkc.qwest.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:57 -!- ur5edgb [~8w9e4rn@84.232.222.64] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:59 < hulkhogan_> they might have a bunch of partnering agreements already, which might also be the reason its more profitable for them to launch a consumer product vs just mine with new chips 14:59 -!- zooko [~user@74-95-207-205-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:00 -!- shen_noe [~shen_noe@75-162-198-81.slkc.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:00 -!- KuDeTa [~KuDeTa@souh-ss0-ip1.network.virginmedia.net] has quit [Quit: KuDeTa] 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