--- Log opened Mon May 25 00:00:21 2015
00:02 < ThomasV> oh I thought the "mouse moving" was only going to act on /dev/random's entropy estimate
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00:02 < gmaxwell> Basically, the urandom behavior is really what virtually everything wants. Except for this corner case around initial startup. Really it should be changed to block in that case, but it cant because userspace starts reading it super early in boot and would get stuck.
00:03 < gmaxwell> ThomasV: nah thats not reliable. at all. sadly, no reason to believe the mouse activity will be credited against it. Linux went through a cycle of removing randomness credits from drivers for a number of years until it got to a point where basically only the timer interrupt added "randomness".
00:03 < gmaxwell> Seems to have gotten somewhat better recently.
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00:04 < ThomasV> I see
00:04 < ThomasV> "please generate timer interrupts to increase your entropy" :)
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00:05 < ThomasV> gmaxwell: did you know the page I linked at the bottom? is it correct?
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00:12 < gmaxwell> looking at it now, haven't seen it before.   Yes, it's correct (it simplifies the design of the linux randomness infrastructure, but it points out the simplification)
00:12 < gmaxwell> It's also correct about other people's opinions on the subject.
00:14 < gmaxwell> Realistically for our usage in generating 'long term' keys perhaps the cost of /dev/random makes sense: just because we shouldn't be wasting our time arguing with panicing frightened users, and there is little risk of the user bypassing the randomness when it does actually block.   (I qualify long term keys because all other places where our program use randomness should _not_ use /dev/random, be
00:14 < gmaxwell> cause the blocking will be problematic for sure and may lead to crazy bypassing)
00:17 < ThomasV> ok.. do you mind if I paste your irc answer there?
00:17 < gmaxwell> Not at all.
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00:20 < gmaxwell> Another point that page doesn't point out is that if you do have an application for an information theoretic RNG source, linux /dev/random is very likely non-sutable. Even if there is adequate entropy in it, the output may be still structured enough to make it distinguishable from random to a computationally unbounded attacker.
00:21 < gmaxwell> (Thats not our application set in any case; but it's probably an argument that /dev/random basically shouldn't exist. The only applications it might be better for it's still not sutiable for.)
00:23 < gmaxwell> To clarify what thats all about: There are some cryptosystems which are secure even against an attacker with infinite computing power; a one time pad is an obvious example though there are other ones. For those properties to hold, the randomness must have no mathmatical structure at all. Running lots of real randomness through sha1 likely gives it mathmatical structure that an attacker with infin
00:23 < gmaxwell> ite computing power could exploit, even if you had plenty of randomness to begin with.
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00:26 < ThomasV> gmaxwell: how could they exploit it in that case? is there a known algorithm for that, or is it just a theoretical bound?
00:26 < gwillen> gmaxwell: he does actually say "If you really need information-theoretically secure random numbers (you don't!), and that's about the only reason why the entropy of the csprngs input matters, you can't use /dev/random, either!"
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00:34 < phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, the tests applied to the output of an rng likely enforce something similar, no?
00:35 < phantomcircuit> if a hw rng output nothing but 11111 im guessing nobody would believe it was random despite that being technically a possible result
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01:59 < fluffypony> zomg are we doing /dev/urandom discussions again?
02:00 < fluffypony> phantomcircuit: did you see the classic comment on Bitcointalk?
02:01 < fluffypony> I'll have to find a cached version
02:02 < fluffypony> https://web.archive.org/web/20150517052034/https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1005487.0
02:02 < fluffypony> first reply
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02:05 < fluffypony> wb ThomasV
02:05 < phantomcircuit> qahah
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02:05 < ThomasV> hi fluffypony
02:07 < ThomasV> what's up?
02:12 < fluffypony> just responding to that github issue
02:12 < fluffypony> to add some thoughts
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03:10 < ThomasV> fluffypony: I was disconnected when you responded I guess
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16:37 < Taek> http://www.theverge.com/2015/4/12/8392769/nsa-front-door-access-encryption-key
16:37 < Taek> "I don’t want a back door," Rogers said. "I want a front door. And I want the front door to have multiple locks. Big locks."
16:37 < Taek> In general I'm against backdoors of any kind
16:37 < Taek> but I wonder if there isn't a way to add a 'front door' that has a computational barrier
16:37 < Taek> perhaps, a standard secret key that works as normal,
16:38 < Taek> and then a govt secret key that's known, but can't be used without scanning a 2^64 search space or something
16:38 < Taek> This would make mass surveilance prohibitively expensive, but still enable the government to access specific targets
16:38 < Taek> which is something I think the general populace would be in favor of
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16:39 < Taek> it also makes it less exciting for attackers to compromise the govt's secret key, because instead of compromising anything, it's still expensive to access any particular communication
16:41 < Taek> one risk with such a scheme is us getting to a point where 2^m is no longer very expensive at all, but thanks to slow legislation we can't increase 'm'
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16:46 < tdryja> Taek: Those specific targets can simply use regular old RSA/AES/Whatever before encrypting with the front-doored system.
16:47 < tdryja> it would then take 2**64 time to discover not the plaintext, but another layer of encryption
16:47 < gmaxwell> Taek: you mean like https://eprint.iacr.org/2003/058.pdf
16:47 < gmaxwell> (though note, the scheme discussed in that paper is weaker than the authors thought)
16:50 < gmaxwell> at tdryja points out, it's pointless though for positive uses.  And any 'feasble but costly' can easily get reduced to a very minor speedbump by building a bunch of custom hardware and amortizing the attack cost across many attacks.
16:51 < Taek> tdryja: that would provide an interested counter-play: hide full encryption under weak encryption, and then let the LEA waste resources on something they couldn't crack anyway
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16:52 < gmaxwell> thats what he was sawying. :)
16:53 < zooko`> That's approximately what the initial "export grade crypto" intention was.
16:53 < zooko`> and get off my lawn. :-(
16:53 < gmaxwell> (thats also a general example of why any kind of escrow or 'front door' approach is unwise.)
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16:53 < Taek> oh got it
16:53  * zooko laughs.
16:53 < gmaxwell> (because the supposid high value targets that justify the enormous civil rights risk of undermining private communication can so easily just encrypt inside and then they have perfect cover traffic too.)
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16:55 < tdryja> Diffie said something like this at a talk a few weeks ago
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16:56 < tdryja> It would seem to quickly devolve into law enforcement opening all the "front doors" all the time
16:56 < tdryja> just to make sure there wasn't another locked door which they couldn't open behind it
16:56 < zooko> Diffie
16:56 < zooko> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9HimLksMkA&app=desktop
16:57 < zooko> I love that guy.
16:57 < gmaxwell> and they can't even really check that, because so long as you don't need a hugely high bandwidth channel; strong steganography is an obvious enough tool.
16:57 < zooko> I've had the honor of meeting him a few times.
16:58 < gmaxwell> So, what you have to admit is that you want backdoors to catch idiots (and orgs so massive that idiocy is unavoidable) because the non-idiots will encrypt inside and stego. But of course there are lots of other ways to fight idiots.
16:59 < gmaxwell> (or that you don't want to fight specific threats at all, but actually just want it to monitor random people...)
16:59 < Taek> I'm not sure that officials always think through that far
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17:01 < gmaxwell> depends on who you're talking about; obviously there is a layer of people who just say "but I want in!" without thinking at all.
17:01 < zooko> Yeah, it's not safe to assume internal consistency.
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17:01 < Taek> I remember an officer 'shuddering to think' how many people would have gotten away if phone encryption was standard
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17:01 < Taek> but these people had video evidence of their crimes *on their own phones*
17:01 < zooko> I think the safest bet is that each person is doing something that they think will improve their own social and/or economic standing.
17:01 < zooko> Beyond that it gets pretty hazy to me. :-)
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17:08 < Taek> A lot of regulation seems to crop up from people not understanding how easily it can be avoided
17:08 < Taek> And some of this might come from a taboo upon looking for ways to bypass laws
17:08 < Taek> if the average person was a lot better at knowing how to avoid laws/regualtion, I wonder if our laws wouldn't be more effective as a consequence
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17:16 < BlueMatt> zooko: keep in mind most of us are insane, so its hard to tell what people are thinking :p
17:26 < zooko> BlueMatt: :-)
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17:28  * rusty resists urge to completely rewrite protobuf-c...
17:28 < nsh> is it bad?
17:28 < zooko> Taek: well, that pattern fits in really well with my model, which is that the people proposing the regulation don't *actually* care, in an effective sense about the *consequences*, only about the nominal intent.
17:28 < zooko> If you pass a law banning murder of puppies, you improve your social and/or economic standing. Whether this results in more or fewer puppy murders is irrelevant.
17:29  * zooko notices that he isn't in the politics chatroom.
17:29  * nsh smiles
17:29 < rusty> nsh: It's... well-meaning.
17:30 < nsh> economic regulation is a little less vulnerable to political incentive issues, as it's usually compartmented such that the people doing the regulating are heavily vested some notional sense of the efficient functionality of the system
17:30 < nsh> as long as it favours their privileged position
17:30 < zooko> An important detail to what I said is "in an effective sense". I mean that those people
17:30 < zooko> may well *feel* strong feelings about saving puppies, and may completely
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17:31 < zooko> honestly *believe* that their actions will save puppies, but I think the system
17:31 < zooko> selects for people who convincingly appear that way, including people who
17:31 < zooko> sincerely are that way, not for people that actually reduce the rate of puppy murders.
17:31 < zooko> See what I mean?
17:31 < zooko> I'm not accusing them of dishonesty, but of irrelevance.
17:31 < nsh> right, but the fed reserve board of governors is less concerned with voterfeels than projections, and economic policy, thankfully, is not written by politicians
17:33 < nsh> it's harder to be cynical than bored reading their minutes. one is inclined to believe in grand conspiracies because the real agenda of the most powerful in society is tragically mediocre and predictable for the most part
17:34 < zooko> Everything I wrote above applies to other incentives than voterfeels!
17:35  * nsh may have missed some context; just reconnected to bouncer after lappy freeze
17:35  * nsh looks at logs
17:35 < zooko> I did use the example of passing a law that voters like.
17:36 < zooko> But the general principle applies to, e.g. defending the honor of your intellectual tradition, getting a juicy consulting job after you retire, etc.
17:36  * nsh nods
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17:55 < nsh> i thought of a question i couldn't easily answer earlier that some of you will probably know: could you speed up WPA2-PSK cracking significantly by collecting lots of handshakes, rather than just trying to match a single one?
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17:58 < nsh> it's a more complex protocol than i'd imagined
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18:01 < nsh> i guess the trivial [active] answer is: yes, there are nonces involved and router uptime can be made arbitrarily low.
18:03 < nsh> but i've never seen any talk of using more than one handshake, so perhaps it wouldn't be worth it? not clear to me how to boil down the schematic protocol representation into a complexity analysis in terms of repeated handshakes
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18:08  * nsh muses about this in ##crypto instead
18:20 < nsh> oh, there is a weakness to the groupwise shared key, but it's somewhat mitigated by the fact that you have to have been associated in the past: http://www.airtightnetworks.com/WPA2-Hole196
18:20 < nsh> i did suspect there would be an issue there
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20:52 < maaku> if nLockTime were compared against something else other than the height/timestamp of the block, what would that be? GetMedianTimePast()?
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21:08 < dgenr8> maaku: that seems an odd question.  what is the goal?
21:10 < maaku> well petertodd mentioned on a pull request the possibility of soft-forking nLockTime to be GetMedianTimePast() instead of the block timestamp
21:10 < maaku> which decreases some timestamp forgery incentives as far as I can tell, maybe has some other benefit too
21:10 < maaku> i'm not aware of the discussion surrounding that
21:11 < maaku> but while switching nLockTime to be based on GetMedianTimePast would be a soft-fork change, doing the same for a hypothetical relative locktime would be a hard-fork change
21:11 < maaku> so, kinda important to get it right...
21:12 < dgenr8> oh he tweeted about exploiting clock-nLocktime to induced propagation inconsistency
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21:15 < dgenr8> my thought was why not let it into the mempool a bit early
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21:37 < afdudley> is there a good reference for time-lock encryption somewhere? is there a non-bitcoin/trusted third party implementation somewhere?
21:37 < maaku> afdudley: i don't think there is a bitcoin implementation either :P
21:37 < afdudley> indeed :D
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21:41 < afdudley> I am reading this: http://eprint.iacr.org/2015/478.pdf it's very interesting but... I think it might be slightly misnamed.
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22:16 < petertodd> dgenr8: if you let it into the mempool, you make the problem worse...
22:17 < petertodd> afdudley: I've implemented timelock crypto here: http://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg05547.html
22:18 < dgenr8> petertodd: then i must have misunderstood your 140 chars
22:18 < petertodd> dgenr8: the problem is that not all nodes have the exact same clock; when you let the tx into the mempool is irrelevant so long as it's based on the local idea of what time it is
22:19 < petertodd> dgenr8: incidentally, you can doublespend coinbase that way pretty easily
22:21 < dgenr8> petertodd: if you let it in 2 hours before locktime, even nodes with slow clocks should have it when final
22:22 < petertodd> dgenr8: sigh.... again, that changes nothing. go try this yourself
22:23 < dgenr8> petertodd: have you described this somewhere?
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22:24 < petertodd> dgenr8: no, why would I? it's pretty obvious how it works once you remember how nLockTime-by-time works
22:24 < dgenr8> petertodd: so we know what "it" is
22:24 < petertodd> dgenr8: meh, I don't get paid to fix zeroconf problems...
22:25 < dgenr8> petertodd: what's your price
22:25 < petertodd> dgenr8: $250/hr
22:25 < dgenr8> petertodd: how many hours will it take
22:25 < petertodd> dgenr8: dunno, it's probably not a fixable problem
22:26 < petertodd> dgenr8: and frankly, given that I'm going to get accused of having bad incentives for this... nah, screw it, I don't want the work
22:27 < dgenr8> petertodd: ... i meant to fix zeroconf completely.
22:27 < petertodd> dgenr8: do you want to still have a decentralized system? because if so, that's impossible
22:28 < dgenr8> petertodd: was sure a highball estimate was coming ;)
22:28 < petertodd> dgenr8: I'm not going to wreck my reputation on something stupid
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22:31 < dgenr8> petertodd: question - how long should the tx replacement "feature" be available?  did we get lucky and 10+-10 min is just right? or would it be nice to explicitly reneg txes for a longer period?
22:31 < petertodd> dgenr8: huh?
22:32 < dgenr8> petertodd: from your writings, i get the impression that RBF is a really cool feature
22:33 < petertodd> dgenr8: I mean, what does "10+-10" min have to do with it?
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22:34 < dgenr8> petertodd: that's how long RBF works, generally.  until next block.  i use +-10 min as the standard dev. is 10 minutes
22:34 < petertodd> dgenr8: no, RBF works until the tx gets *into* a block
22:35 < dgenr8> petertodd: hence "generally"
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22:35 < petertodd> dgenr8: I still don't see your point
22:37 < dgenr8> petertodd: no point, just a question
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22:38 < petertodd> dgenr8: block interval is based on latency considerations; shorter block intervals reduce security significantly. Is 10 minutes optimal? Who knows, but like most things in security, arguing about how low we can reduce our security margin and still get away with it is dumb.
22:39 < dgenr8> petertodd: well that answers A question
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22:55 < Luke-Jr> I'd argue that once it gets in a block, you don't *need* the replacement feature anymore ;)
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--- Log closed Tue May 26 00:00:11 2015