--- Log opened Wed Jun 03 00:00:08 2015
--- Day changed Wed Jun 03 2015
00:00 < petertodd> bramc: there's very specific reasons for BIP66 and they aren't rellated directly to malleability
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00:00 < bramc> Or rather, does it succeed in making it so that someone who doesn't want to allow third parties to mutate their signatures to keep that from happening?
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00:00 < petertodd> no
00:00 < bramc> No to which of my questions?
00:00 < petertodd> no, it doesnt succeed
00:01 < bramc> At any of it?
00:01 < phantomcircuit> iirc bip 66 prevents all know mutations of the der ecdsa signatures
00:01 < phantomcircuit> petertodd, is this wrong?
00:01 < petertodd> like I said, BIP66 is to fix issues with openssl, not to prevent malleability
00:01 < petertodd> that it happens to be a subset of bip62 which aims to fix malleability is an accident
00:02 < petertodd> anyway, bbl, going for a hike with my parents :)
00:03 < moa> take a hike
00:03 < bramc> All these years and we're still dealing with the shittiness of openssl
00:03 < petertodd> moa: exactly!
00:04 < bramc> Nobody's commented on my scheme to screw over anyone who accepts zeroconf. Maybe that's too uncontroversial around here to provoke discussion.
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00:05 < bramc> Mind you, I'm not advocating stealing, just pointing out how it could be done very effectively and that *somebody* will inevitably do it.
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00:13 < bramc> Interesting, bip62 requires a new signature type, instead of just stricter acceptance like bip66
00:13 < moa> bramc: some outfit announced a service to provide double-spend confidence ratings
00:14 < bramc> moa, *sigh*
00:15 < bramc> The unstoppable attack is that people can post 'legit' transactions to the network, then post transactions with different targets including kickbacks to old mining reward targets to some darknet
00:16 < bramc> Or maybe the signatures for old mining rewards are used to give new targets to preserve the anonymity of the, ahem, service provider
00:16 < bramc> There's not much which can be done about this: If the miners are conspiring against your idiotic zeroconf acceptance, then you're fucked, and there's no reason for them not to do it.
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00:18 < bramc> This practice wouldn't even be illegal, and would be very unlikely to be made illegal if clueful people explained to regulators what was going on.
00:18 < p15> could you just not accept zeroconf when an old mining reward was involved?
00:22 < bramc> p15, No it works like this: I post a transaction sending something to you. This is a completely legit transaction, nothing weird about it. It comes from me it goes to you. It goes through the bitcoin network properly. Separately, I post to some darknet a bunch of competing transactions, which all have the same input but their outputs split between a key I have and a kickback for the same key as will claim one of the old
00:22 < bramc> mining rewards. I post one of these for each of the last couple thousand mining operations
00:23 < bramc> So you accept the as legit as it can be zeroconf operation, and it gets magically undone by a miner who is, ahem, optimizing their mining rewards.
00:24 < p15> ok I see
00:25 < p15> it sounds pretty similar to a normal attack on zeroconf
00:25 < p15> just a new way to reward a miner
00:27 < p15> the killer attack would be one that didn't include a complicit miner
00:30 < bramc> You can do an 'okay' job of zeroconf if you assume that the miners are diligently trying to make everything fair and just and are acting as charitable entities
00:30 < bramc> Of course, that view is hopelessly naive.
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00:32 < p15> if you could do a good job of zeroconf what we would we need miners for :D
00:33 < CoinMuncher> bramc: Hadn't heard your proposal before. Interesting. petertodd has a whole double-spend python library with even higher claimed success rates than yours.
00:33 < CoinMuncher> bramc: In the end zeroconf should just go to Lightning Network I guess.
00:34 < bramc> CoinMuncher, My attack is now, I buried in here: http://bramcohen.com/2015/06/02/gallus-and-simo-debate-whether-the-block-size-limit-should-be-increased
00:35 < bramc> If I'd made a ranty post calling zeroconf supporters stupid and just covering that one point it might have gotten some press. Putting it in the middle of a dense information-filled post not so much.
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00:36 < bramc> And yes, lightning network or green transactions are a much better way to get immediate payments. That's a boringly uncontroversial statement around these parts.
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00:39 < CoinMuncher> ah right still need to finish reading that post. Looked like a good summary.  Putting a nice little candy in the middle is actually a good trick, teaches people to read your stuff. You don't want to play the sensationalist journalism headlines game, do you?
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00:47 < bramc> Sometimes I play the sensationalist journalism game by accident when I'm a little too glib
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01:08 < moa> bramc: this one http://dev.blockcypher.com/#zero_confirmations
01:10 < bramc> moa, Yeah the point of the attack that I propose is that you could seem to have nearly 100% confidence that you're out there based on the data they collect and still be completely fucked.
01:10 < moa> hmmm, seems like they might like to know about it?
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01:11 < bramc> moa, It tends to be very hard to convince someone of something when their funding is dependent on them not understanding it.
01:12 < moa> lol
01:13 < moa> conflicted
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01:14 < moa> stomach neural mass rules cerebral cortex every time
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02:01 < stonecoldpat> bramc: if i understand correctly, so you get the public key from an old coinbase, and send the miner that transaction directly? (splitting the bitcoins between yourself and the miner)? this just seems like a non-interactive way to stop the miner needing to send you his public key and creates a link on the blockchain. Please correct me if i'm wrong with understanding what you proposed. Although -you could derive a new publ
02:02 < stonecoldpat> (and since the public key is sent out of bounds and not stored in the OP_RETURN, its not an obvious stealth address).
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02:20 < CoinMuncher> stonecoldpat: s/public key/address   and I don't see how you would derive a new address.
02:22 < CoinMuncher> bramc: Also, why would you send the double spend directly to one particular miner address instead of just having a large fees so that *any* miner can pick it up? That makes it more deniable by the miner as well: it's just a fee.
02:27 < stonecoldpat> CoinMuncher: fair point, you would need to find where the coinbase has been spent to get the public key - and the fee does seem a more obvious way to do it, but it does look strange if the 'fee' is very large and it was not visible on the network before going into the blockchain (if its just a large fee, youd expect everyone to hear about it), whereas a transaction would be less supicious
02:29 < stonecoldpat> or may be less suspicious* (always arguable)
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02:37 < CoinMuncher> yeah still suspicious, but a bit more plausible deniability for the miner than a straight transaction. (if you even consider this illegal or morally wrong...).
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09:15 < lmatteis> i imagine you guys saw this http://eprint.iacr.org/2015/521.pdf
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09:23 < kanzure> "Democoin: A publicly verifiable and jointly serviced cryptocurrency"
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09:26 < kanzure> hmm what's the utility of a proof of guilt
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09:27 < kanzure> why would they care if they have a proof-of-guilt floating around?
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09:29 < gmaxwell> It doesn't appear to specify. It may be an implicit assumptions that participants have known, issued identities, and are subject to some effective external process.  Or it's a rehashing of the fraud proofs motivations we'd discussed previously.
09:30 < kanzure> it's also not clear what their actual goals are, so it's hard to evaluate their design against that
09:30 < gmaxwell> Their centeral coin design sounds essentially identical the very first thing discussed in this channel. (though we answered what you'd do with the fraud proofs, you'd use them to claim fidelity bonds)
09:32 < kanzure> this seems to be their criticism of bitcoin :P "However, these systems require a public file (”ledger”) that is very big and very inefficient to maintain and update. As a result, these systems too may not be too useful, particularly if the number of users and transactions grows."
09:32 < lmatteis> if anybody can summarize that document i'd be grateful
09:32 < kanzure> waste of time
09:33 < lmatteis> plus what is up with the "(This technology is covered by three patent applications"
09:33 < kanzure> the number of bitcoin users does not directly (and hardly indirectly) determines the size of the ledger
09:33 < gmaxwell> kanzure: yea, a little frustrating that that cite the bitcoin whitepaper but don't appear to be even aware of the scaling tools explictly disclosed in it with their own sections; much less that subsiquent tools this community has discussed over the past 5 years.
09:33 < kanzure> the number of bitcoin transactions can grow without insertion into the blockchain, so that's also a weird thing for them to claim
09:34 < gmaxwell> At the same time; I suppose actually being aware of the state of the art might inhibit their ability to gain expansive patents...
09:34 < lmatteis> here's the background of the author: http://people.csail.mit.edu/sergeyg/work.html
09:34 < lmatteis> it's unreal that someone can actually patent these "ideas"
09:34 < kanzure> i suspect that this is the same in other academic fields (nobody reads the literature carefully)
09:35 < lmatteis> their background seems more crypto-theory rather than distributed systems
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09:42 < lmatteis> kanzure: you'd be surprised how stringent most top academic conferences are in terms of making sure related work is attributed
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10:06 < gmaxwell> lmatteis: <cynically> to the reviewers and organizers </cynically> :)
10:07 < ThomasV> lol
10:08 < gmaxwell> really, its hard, but on papers I've done it was pretty easy to tell at least which instutions reviewers were with based on which papers they demanded you cite. :)
10:10 < ThomasV> gmaxwell: reviewers are often chosen based on which papers you cite in your manuscript
10:12 < lmatteis> but they're double-blinded
10:13 < ThomasV> not always
10:13 < ThomasV> double blind reviewing is pretty rare
10:13 < ThomasV> at least in some fields
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10:13 < binaryFate> in my field most often they're not double-blinded (either journals or conference)
10:14 < ThomasV> I saw double blind reviewing at some conferences, but never for a journal
10:14 < lmatteis> really? most a, a* are double-blinded
10:16 < ThomasV> nature offers it only since this year
10:17 < lmatteis> "All submissions will be evaluated using a double-blind review process. To ensure blind reviewing, papers should be anonymized by removing author names and affiliations, as well as by masking any information about projects and bibliographic references, etc. that might reveal the authors’ identities."
10:18 < lmatteis> this is from an "average" academic conference
10:18 < lmatteis> actually rated C which is quite low
10:20 < kanzure> "the rate of citations is inversely proportional to the distance of the author from the other institution"
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10:20 < kanzure> man that would be a terrible result to see
10:21 < ThomasV> heh.. I remember removing the hostname of my machine manually from some pdf figures
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10:22 < ThomasV> was fun
10:22 < binaryFate> you could insert priv keys there to bribe reviewers :)
10:24 < ThomasV> binaryFate: ao generate them from your abstract
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10:31 < gmaxwell> If you generated them from something other than the abstract they'd have to read something other than the abstract, win win. :P
10:31 < waxwing> just reading about chameleon hashes/sigs, something i don't get: what does this system give you that a simple HMAC doesn't? i.e. with a shared key hmac you have a non-transferrable signature, no?
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10:35 < gmaxwell> waxwing: yes, HMAC works for a designated verifier system.
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10:43 < waxwing> oh so if i read it right it's like, with chameleon you can still get non-repudiability because if there is a dispute the signer can generate a collision which he wouldn't otherwise be able to. you don't get that with hmac.
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10:49 < gmaxwell> waxwing: right.
10:49 < gmaxwell> waxwing: You can see a little design where I used that idea here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=318279.0
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10:52 < waxwing> swedish gangsters lol
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10:57 < midnightmagic> gmaxwell: Can both Alice and Bob publish forged contracts?
11:00 < midnightmagic> Ah, no, nevermind.
11:00 < midnightmagic> So if Alice can't forge a contract, then all they have to do is put a gun to Alice's head and force her to reveal the contract, correct?
11:02 < waxwing> wouldn't it be possible to do it symmetrically, each side signs the same contract using a chameleon sig?
11:03 < midnightmagic> Then how does anyone show what the original contract was in the event of a dispute?
11:03 < gmaxwell> midnightmagic: they don't, you just show bob is up to some crap.
11:05 < waxwing> Alice proves Bob has forged by demonstrating a collision. I think that works?
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11:06 < midnightmagic> gmaxwell: Is there some property I'm missing which shows that the forgeries are forgeries after Alice publishes the original?
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11:07 < gmaxwell> midnightmagic: that fact that there are two of them! :)
11:07 < gmaxwell> it means that one must be a forgery.
11:08 < midnightmagic> gmaxwell: And.. Alice can't forge, but in the narrow world of the arrangement, we can't tell which one came from bob and which came from alice without additional constructions that defeat the purpose of the arrangement?
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11:09 < gmaxwell> midnightmagic: right, a key point though is that you know both came from bob, perhaps then the convention is that bob is automatically a fraudester unless he does the alice-favorable superset of both contracts.
11:11 < waxwing> gmaxwell: i think you're talking about your original construction, not my suggestion of it being done in both directions?
11:12 < gmaxwell> waxwing: yea sorry, only half reading.  If it's done in both directions than alice and bob can coperate to forge; which has its utility too.
11:13 < gmaxwell> (I think I may have mentioned a bidi version in that thread? ... I know they were discussed somewhere. The problem with bidi is just more coordination required.)
11:13 < waxwing> right. i can't see a practical problem arising from them both being able to forge, perhaps there is.
11:13 < waxwing> (cooperatively)
11:14 < waxwing> it has the huge advantage that they're both protected from coercion though, if i got it right
11:15 < midnightmagic> Then the construction of a forgery shows that a forgery exists, and the creation of a forgery means Bob is evil if we all agree that constructing forgeries is evil. But we can never tell whether Bob is satisfying the contract since everything might be a forgery.
11:17 < waxwing> midnightmagic: i can't see the scenario where they would cooperate to create a forgery and then show that to the world? How would that benefit them both?
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11:19 < gmaxwell> midnightmagic: you can, because you can require in the event of two contracts; both must be satisfied; and in the event of contradictory requirements alice choses.
11:20 < midnightmagic> gmaxwell: Ah, makes sense.
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11:21 < midnightmagic> waxwing: Perhaps as part of the contract, Bob makes one in advance for Alice which he's willing to abide by in the event of coercion, to protect Alice.
11:21 < waxwing> another way to put it, cooperative forging is not forging, it's agreement (another contract)
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11:22 < midnightmagic> "I never told him to kill anyone, I told him to make me a website."
11:22 < bramc> stonecoldpat, Yeah the idea is that (1) the miner has authenticated themselves as a miner (2) the person doing the double-spend sends to them 'directly', possibly through a mixnet, and (3) whoever's running the mixnet can authenticate both that the transaction is going to a miner and that the transaction really is a double spend
11:22 < waxwing> yeah, that's cool, but even more, as long as everyone understands the properties of the primitive, no one will ever try to coerce.
11:23 < bramc> Lots of beautiful anti-spam properties in that system. There also can be kickbacks to whoever's running the mixnet.
11:23 < waxwing> in theory :) what always worries me about deniability stuff is that it relies on criminals not being thick as a brick :)
11:24 < gmaxwell> I object to the claim that only (or even mostly) criminals need deniability; in particular, as you not criminals tend to make poor life choices to begin with. :)
11:24 < midnightmagic> :)
11:24 < gmaxwell> But yes, in practice these things are not so hugely useful.. though its sad to adopt something like pay to contract in a way that _reduces_ security against some known threats.
11:24 < midnightmagic> It was the easiest example that arrived off the top of my head.
11:25 < midnightmagic> fwiw, I strongly think that normal people should use these sorts of constructs widely, if not this one specifically. Just to be clear.
11:26 < waxwing> well this one is obviously hugely useful in non-criminal contexts. at least looks that way to me.
11:30 < waxwing> wow "exposure freeness". that's cool, so the judge doesn't even have to know the contents of the contract :)
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11:32 < gmaxwell> waxwing: the schemes we have for tree structured hashes also let you do things like prove sections of text, so you can redact most of a contract if only part is in dispute.
11:34 < gmaxwell> (e.g. use the hash of the full contract (plus optionally a nonce) to build a tree structured CSPRNG that assigns a nonce to each byte of the message. Then make a tree structured hash over the bytes with their nonces, sign the hash root... now you can compactly prove any character ranges from the original document, without revealing the whole document.)
11:34 < waxwing> gmaxwell: yes that's a great idea. although you'd have to make sure each *section* is signed independently.
11:34 < gmaxwell> waxwing: nope, see above, it can be done so a signal signature lets you cover arbritary ranges, down to the bit.
11:35 < gmaxwell> if the contract naturally has some structure like sections, the ranges could break along them too, e.g. if you wanted disclosure of certian data to always be forced.
11:35 < waxwing> i'm thinking semantically; Alice promises A,B,C if Bob abides by D,E,F - no point exposing only the A,B,C part. sort o fthing.
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11:36 < gmaxwell> yea indeed, though if the scheme is interactive and bob reveals A,B,C and D but not E and F, alice can just expose E,F (or just whatever bob isn't complying with).
11:36 < gmaxwell> Main utility I saw in this was just a "here is my contact with them with the payment amounts, and my delivery address redacted"
11:36 < waxwing> yes
11:37 < waxwing> the conditional exposure solves it, or at least it's good enough. people who write legal contracts will have fun :)
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11:38 < waxwing> one could imagine cases where Bob applies game theory, knowing Alice values the secrecy of C more than the fulfilment of the contract.
11:39 < waxwing> but exposure only to a judge/arbiter might make that almost purely theoretical
11:40 < gmaxwell> waxwing: sure, but without this scheme bob can do that over the whole contract; so at least its a strict improvement.
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11:46 < dgenr8> bramc: the red double-spends were seen first in a block http://respends.thinlink.com/
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12:02 < bramc> dgenr8, Maybe it's happening already?
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13:12 < dgenr8> bramc: yes, either the double-spends were not broadcast, or the subnetwork that monitors for double-spends happened to miss them. that's grown a lot less likely recently
13:13 < bramc> dgenr8, Some of the red ones have very long delays between the first and second transaction, there might be some propagation problems involved, perhaps they're somewhat malformed
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16:45 < akrmn> silly question: What if force miners to hash the whole block instead of the header? Would that incentivize smaller blocks?
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16:57 < gmaxwell> akrmn: that would be incompatible with lite clients. And it wouldn't just "icentivize" it would make it so you'd have to be stupid to include any txn at all so long as there is subsidy.
16:59 < akrmn> gmaxwell: Yes but eventually there will be the incentive for fees
16:59 < akrmn> And I think it can be softforked
16:59 < akrmn> Either header only with 1 MB limit (compatible with old clients) or full block with no limit
17:00 < Luke-Jr> akrmn: nobody would ever mine >1 MB blocks this way.
17:00 < akrmn> ok thanks for your opinions. Just thinking of the possibilities :)
17:01 < akrmn> someone will  have to do the math eventually
17:02 < akrmn> but ya what I want to do is so no one mines more than 1 MB blocks (99% of the time)
17:03 < akrmn> and still give the "pro big blocks people" the freedom they desire
17:04 < Luke-Jr> akrmn: did you see gmaxwell's suggestion? http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/38937n/idea_make_the_difficulty_target_scale_with_block/crta20m
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17:08 < akrmn> If the point is just to limit the UTXO size, then I don't think that's good enough, but I will read more carefully
17:09 < Luke-Jr> it's too bad there's no obvious way to punish miners if UTXOs don't get spent ever
17:09 < akrmn> I think we need on average 1 MB with some rare and not too big variations around it
17:09 < Luke-Jr> (of course, then the problem becomes "how do miners guess if they will?")
17:09 < Luke-Jr> akrmn: Bitcoin can't handle average 1 MB today.
17:09 < akrmn> I'm the guy who proposed the "subchains" idea btw.
17:10 < akrmn> My idea is log(n) storage and verification complexity for each participant
17:10 < akrmn> so even O(n) storage is bad in my view
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17:12 < akrmn> (well assuming you don't count all the headers in the storage measurement)
17:14 < Luke-Jr> also, even if bigger blocks cost more, if it puts your competition out of mining, then you eventually get the difficulty to drop for you
17:14 < Luke-Jr> so I'm not so sure how well that idea works
17:15 < akrmn> ya it's not so crucial for the system, but it can give some more flexibilty. Needs some calculations though.
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17:35 < HostFat> luke-jr what is your opinion about my idea instead?
17:35 < HostFat> did you read it?
17:38 < akrmn> but one way to look at it (my idea) is that as computers get faster in the future, a 10 MB block for example, may be tiny and no different from a header when calculating the SHA256 sum, but I have to see the details of how the SHA algorithm works in order to understand.
17:39 < Luke-Jr> HostFat: which one?
17:39 < HostFat> https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/38aqt6/nodes_should_prefer_smaller_blocks/
17:39 < Luke-Jr> HostFat: that creates some serious problems
17:39 < Luke-Jr> akrmn: the hashing is never done on computers..
17:40 < frankenm_> seems easy to collusion HostFat, sorry i havent really looked at this in depth
17:40 < Luke-Jr> don't even need collusion. Just make empty blocks all the time, and you will always win.
17:41 -!- frankenm_ is now known as frankenmint
17:43 < HostFat> hmm, they just win if more blocks are found contemporary ... anyway, I see the problem, I'm not sure that it work perfectly ... but it can be a good idea when the bitcoin mining bonus will be lower then the sum of fees
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17:46 < HostFat> I think that this problem can be fixed easily, "nodes will not accept blocks that are lower than the sum of tx that they know"
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17:48 < gmaxwell> "Explanations exist; they have existed for all time; there is always a well-known solution to every human problem — neat, plausible, and wrong."
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18:10 < bsm117532> One of my favorite quotes...
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18:22 < Luke-Jr> HostFat: now you're breaking consensus.
18:23 < Luke-Jr> HostFat: as well as breaking miners' rights and the hope of ever filtering spam (which is necessary for the blockchain to function)
18:24 < HostFat> you are right
18:24 < justanotheruser> 4
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18:25 < Luke-Jr> justanotheruser: *4=10
18:25 < justanotheruser> what
18:25 < justanotheruser> oh right, your tonal stuff
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20:07 < Taek> wrt the patented research ideas, it was suggested in #mit-dci by wumpus and petertodd that it might be worth boycotting patented papers
20:09 < Taek> especially if the paper has good ideas, you might find ways to build on those ideas and then find your own work subject to patent litigation
20:09 < gmaxwell> Taek: unfortunately thats not how patents work in the US.
20:09 < gmaxwell> unless you just mean intentionally not building on patented things; which is prudent.
20:10 < Taek> I do mean the latter
20:10 < Taek> when you read a good idea, you can't help but incorporate it into the other things you are working on
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20:11 < Taek> I was also thinking that by refusing to acknowledge patented work, you provide an active disincentive for some researchers whose goals include recognition
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20:14 < gmaxwell> unfortunately you can't tell from papers; there is no obligation to disclose (and often people don't); the authors might not even know at publication time, since at least for US patents you can begin the entire process up to a year after publishing.
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20:14 < gmaxwell> some venues may have requirements to disclose patent information, we could certantly encourage venus to adopt such rules.
20:16 < gmaxwell> Oh also, it may eventually be useful to distinguish patent terms, for example if someone gets patents assigns them to a 501(c)(3) and offers them under permissive protective licenses; would you shun those too?
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20:17 < Taek> personally, I'm on the MIT/Apache side of things: information / invention should be as unrestricted as possible
20:17 < Taek> but I acknowledge that some things are a lot better than others
20:18 < Taek> There is a 'Linux Defenders' group that makes defensive publications related to linux technologies, I'm wondering if it would be worth organizing something similar for Bitcoin
20:18 < Taek> (not that I am volunteering)
20:20 < zooko> In theory that organization -- the Open Invention Network -- could define Bitcoin as being part of linux, and then all of its current members would be obligated not to patent-sue anyone for their use of Bitcoin
20:20 < zooko> or else they would get kicked out of the club.
20:20 < zooko> I think that's how it works.
20:21 < zooko> The process would be that someone, ideally someone influential/authoritative/famous begs Open Invention Network to define Linux as including Bitcoin.
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22:01  * Jaamg thinks that it should not be possible to patent money
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22:18 < Jaamg> in general I'm an "agnostic" on this subject; maybe there are things where patenting is justified or maybe not, but it should not be possiblt to patent money. it's like patenting game theory
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22:38  * maaku thinks it should not be possible to patent
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22:40 < Jaamg> you may be right, i have never really given a good thought on the subject
22:41 < moa> a gentleperson's agreement on attribution would be good start for a civil society
22:44  * dgenr8 plans to patent his DNA, then sue his children
22:44 < moa> for half?
22:45 < dgenr8> mo' children, mo' better
22:46 < dgenr8> suppose there was a patch to not bother downloading a block past 5MB, unless it were built on to some degree.  evil?
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22:47 < dgenr8> oh, and hard fork has eliminated blocksize limit (forgot that part)
22:47 < maaku> dgenr8: ah but in great irony you are liable for them until they reach age of majority, at which point your patent would have expired. you'd be suing yourself ;)
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22:48 < dgenr8> clever choice of jurisdiction notwithstanding i presume
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23:14 < dgenr8> the conclusions of Houy http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2400519 are not very convincing as they ignore the possibility of changes in the economic value of the block reward (read exchange rate atm)
23:17 < dgenr8> in practice, that change was +infinity between halvings 0-1, and might be 10x between halvings 1-2 (enough to cover more than 3 halvings)
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23:25 < Jaamg> "I confess that I prefer true but imperfect knowledge, even if it leaves much indetermined and unpredictable, to a pretence of exact knowledge that is likely to be false." - F.A. Hayek
23:29 < Jaamg> this kind of modelling of tx fee economics can potentially lead into much harm, but i understand why it's interesting
23:32 < Jaamg> http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/economic-sciences/laureates/1974/hayek-lecture.html
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23:42 < moa> anybody have insights as to why bitcoin-xt is not a git fork of bitcoin core https://github.com/bitcoinxt/bitcoinxt?
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--- Log closed Thu Jun 04 00:00:31 2015