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01:13 < fluffypony> andytoshi: Shen is MRL, I think the Darkcoin stuff was just because that's his baseline for understanding CoinJoin
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04:17 < waxwing> so in 3.3.1 of Borromean, you have n "OR-loops", each one has m_i keys involved and you only know the privkey for one of them. And there is one AND joining vertex, at index zero. Is that right?
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05:42 < waxwing> in the confidential_values.txt, it says that sender and receiver do ECDH so the sender can transfer the blinding/amount info to receiver; when/how is that done?
05:43 < waxwing> oh, i guess it can be done with the transaction maybe? because pubkeys are known.
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05:44 < waxwing> ah, so it's like embedded into the signature? (trying to parse 'by careful use of derandomized signing..')
05:46 < waxwing> or, proof not signature, rather
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17:13 < xcthulhu> http://www.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/39imrr/vitaliks_premine_sale_opportunity/
17:14 < xcthulhu> Let’s see if he’s gonna eat his own horseshit, shall we?
17:17 < gmaxwell> offtopic here.
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17:24 < xcthulhu> (sorry)
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18:59 < www> hi
19:00 < www> is there a good way to publish extended public keys on the blockchain?
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19:00 < sipa> why would you do such a thing?
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19:00 < www> hi sipa :)
19:01 < www> to let people generate stealth addresses or other derived addresses from your main address
19:02 < sipa> that's utterly pointless if you publish the extended address
19:02 < www> why?
19:02 < www> how would you do it?
19:02 < sipa> the point against address reuse is because it reduces your privacy
19:02 < sipa> if you *publish* your extended address you've now given a way to the world to detect all related addresses
19:02 < www> stealth addresses increase your privacy?
19:03 < sipa> stealth addresses != extended addresses
19:03 < www> you definetly can have stealth with extendet keys
19:03 < www> which stealth do you mean?
19:05 < www> furthermore there are good usecases where you want to have a proven record of transactions. don't assume that always everything has to be private. but this is not related to stealth ;)
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19:05 < www> lol
19:05 < www> why is everybody here so arrogant?
19:09 < gmaxwell> www: What you're saying doesn't seem to make a lot of sense. You say it would be more private, but sipa points out that if you publish an extended public key then its not private at all.
19:10 < amiller> www, not arrogant, just with scarce attention
19:10 < gmaxwell> You had to give the payer the address some way, use that channel, give them the extended public key. Tada; and then thats also private if thats something you care about.  The blockchain is not a message bus.
19:10 < www> maybe you are talking about a different way to do stealth?
19:11 < www> what if you can't establish a channel?
19:11 < www> because you are async?
19:12 < gmaxwell> www: you still have to give someone the address in the first place; there _must_ be communication otherwise they don't know anything at all.
19:12 < gmaxwell> www: well you asked about a specific thing-- giving someone an extended public key.
19:13 < gmaxwell> maybe you meant something else? regardless. If you need a communication channel you need a communication channel, the blockchain isn't good for that (though it can be abused that way)
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19:14 < www> yes, I think to have the extended pubkey on chain is very reasonable and useful when you want to have certain types of stealth payments and to avoid address reuse
19:15 < gmaxwell> www: if the extended public key is public then everyone knowns all the addresses, its completely non-private.
19:15 < www> you just need to publish it once somewhere linked to yoru identity
19:15 < www> it's optional. public OR private/stealth
19:16 < gmaxwell> www: great, and you can include the extended public key there, and when they check that they'll have the whole thing! tada done! and no need to put it in a perpetual public database where it will be visible to the whole world.
19:17 < www> of course you do not generate the stealth addresses the 'HD' way
19:17 < www> then of course they would be public (which is still sometimes wanted)
19:17 < gmaxwell> Then why the heck are you asking about an extended public key?!
19:17 < gmaxwell> www: if you put the extended pubkey in the blockchain there would be no privacy because anyone else could go and derrive the same addresses.  As you note, if you're already depending on publishing your address someplace linked to your identity, you can put the extended key _there_. Why do you not just put it there, and kill two birds with one stone.
19:18 < www> again and again: because you can have stealth addresses with it. don't get how?
19:18 < gmaxwell> www: so clarifying, what your'e asking about is not an extended public key, but a "stealth address". Okay, now that makes a little more sense.
19:19 < gmaxwell> But I have still not gathered why you are not happy with the point that when you check the publication-linked-to-your-identity that can't just encode the stealth address, saving you the extra publication step?
19:19 < www> because there is also a good censorship-free way to put other information... like a name to your address. even if you tell me not to do so
19:20 < www> you can't call somebody and tell them that you are 1xyca;sdhfalsjdfh&*y9rf
19:20 < www> usability is terrible
19:20 < gmaxwell> the Bitcoin network is very much not censorship free.
19:21 < gmaxwell> (alas)
19:21 < phantomcircuit> or is at least much less so than other channels
19:21 < gmaxwell> okay so what you are really looking for is something like namecoin then?
19:21 < www> if the bitcoin network is not, then nothing is?
19:21 < gmaxwell> e.g. something to attach unique human friendly names to keying material?
19:21 < www> no, it is way more simple than namecoin
19:21 < gmaxwell> namecoin is super simple.
19:21 < www> it is called bitcoin
19:22 < www> no need to use another network if you just want to have names with optional stealth payments for bitcoin
19:22 < gmaxwell> www: in the bitcoin network today your transactions can be freely surpressed by the decision of ~3-4 parties, at no cost to themselves; the main defense against that is being indistinguishable. (and hope that they don't target you)
19:23 < www> so bitcoin is broken?
19:23 < gmaxwell> www: I wasn't suggesting using namecoin, I'm trying to decode what you're actually trying to accomplish because it is unclear.
19:23  * Luke-Jr suggests rename extended public key -> extended watch key
19:24 < www> maybe we need a well defined bitcoin dictionary
19:25 < gmaxwell> Extended public key is a well defined term, but I don't care what you call things so long as I can figure out what you mean.
19:25 < gmaxwell> I think I've figured out what fork of what you're asking for there. But now, this last part sounds like you're looking for a key value database.
19:26 < gmaxwell> Preumably you'd want it to be efficiently and securely queryable?
19:27 < www> would be best, yes
19:27 < gmaxwell> (otherwise, ... why not just have whatever centeralized services most people would trust to query it keep a list! :) )
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19:28 < www> back to something you said: if 4-5 entities control bitcoin as yous aid, why don't they block e.g. the silkroad coins?
19:28 < gmaxwell> www: okay, well there currently isn't a way to do that in bitcoin even if you look aside at the misuse of the system to store key/value data. The challenge is in making it securely queryable. It's not fundimentally hard to do this, but it requires additional commitments that bitcoin doesn't have.
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19:29 < www> just run a full node if you want highest security
19:29 < www> no?
19:30 < www> otherwise trust friends who run a full node
19:30 < www> and so on...
19:30 < gmaxwell> www: Perhaps but the overwhelming vast vast majority of users don't do that--- and the trends are in the opposit direction (esp with talk of increased load on the system); so IMO something that doesn't have security at all except for full nodes seems like a waste... just pretextual security. E.g. if most users are just going to trust bc.i why saddle everyone else with more load?
19:31 < www> trends are pointing in a bad direction for bitcoin, indeed
19:32 < www> when you download your full node client you trust again somebody that the right genesis hash is hardcoded, right?
19:33 < www> so fundamentally you always need to trust somebody initially
19:33 < www> if you can diversify trust (multiple friends) then security increases
19:34 < gmaxwell> www: thats not the case. I mean if the wrong one is hardcoded you'll notice that you're rejecting the longest chain.
19:34 < gmaxwell> www: in any case, so there you're imaging some kind of friend network. OKAY, but if you have the friend network, why isn't it just answering your queries?
19:34 < www> would you also check the magic byte and port number and difficulty?
19:35 < www> probably you would
19:35 < www> but most people don't... again
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19:36 < gmaxwell> www: you could, if you liked. Come you must admit thats not really much of a plausable attack.  Where lots of people trust websites which can just start giving false information at any time, due to hacks or bugs or because the operators were evil all along.  While in the software case, there is one chance for it to be busted, and that much is auditable and detectable, and we use a public signing
19:36 < gmaxwell> process to make sure you're not being given a bad version just for you.
19:37 < gmaxwell> In any case, if you think its fine for people to just trust some popular website (or a few), okay, thats not a totally irrational position.  For some applications it is.  But then why the blockchain pretext?
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19:37 < www> why not just a friend network? because I actually just want to send coins to names with a high-enough security in a convenient way. nothing is perfectly secure. but IMO it would be an improvement
19:38 < www> forget websites
19:38 < www> i never talked about websites
19:38 < www> hmm
19:39 < gmaxwell> But in your example you claimed that you didn't care if it could be efficiently securely queried because you could ask friends, ... in that case you're trusting the friends, so why not just do that?
19:39 < www> the attack could be done. several factors improve the security of bitcoin. it is not just one thing.
19:40 < gmaxwell> www: do any of your friends (e.g. people you already know offline?) run bitcoin full nodes today?
19:40 < www> yes
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19:40 < www> but with friends I mean several generally trusted entities.
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19:40 < gmaxwell> I find that a little unlikely.
19:40 < gmaxwell> okay then.
19:41 < www> e.g. you download a wallet. you generally trust the wallet developer
19:42 < gmaxwell> in any case, ... if you are happy with security reducing to a "generally trusted entity" then why not have the entity keep the database? at that point your security is much better, e.g. it can be guarenteed instant update and reorg free (assuming the honesty of the 'generally trusted entitys' holds), and their behavior could be completely auditable.
19:42 < www> a lot of companies values is based on reputation. even if one of them becomes evil or just gets hacked, then it would be good ot have alternativesj to check against. aways. diversify
19:42 < gmaxwell> and just as a minor bonus you wouldn't be subjecting yourself to the censorship of both the generally trusted entity _and_ some small number of miners, but only the former.
19:43 < gmaxwell> www: true, but a collection of companies can keep a database without using bitcoin.
19:43 < www> because it is not good to trust just one entity?
19:43 < gmaxwell> see above
19:43 < www> but it is not open?
19:43 < kanzure> there are many open-source database implementations
19:43 < gmaxwell> and because of query efficiency you still are trusting one entity in that example.
19:44 < www> it is not about open source but about open access (censorship free)
19:44 < kanzure> yeah they can do that
19:44 < kanzure> but "censorship free" does not mean what you think it means
19:44 < www> kanzure: give me the dictionary please
19:45 < gmaxwell> www: again, if you're accessing via trusted entities x,y,z  then any condition under which they could censor a database they ran they could also censor the queries they ran for you.  Plus on the bittcoin case you get extra censorship from miners and potentially node operators that don't appricate you using their _currency_ as a rolodex. :)
19:45 < kanzure> well you're in a cryptography channel, so censorship resistance here is completely unrelated to whether something is open or closed access
19:46 < www> it has some similarities kanzure
19:46 < kanzure> nope
19:46 < www> gmaxwell: you say the miners own bitcoin?
19:47 < www> in my eyes the miners do rather stupid calculations
19:47 < www> and follow what the cool people (maybe you) say
19:48 < kanzure> why are you in charge of deciding who is cool
19:48 < kanzure> that doesn't make sense
19:48 < www> i don't do this
19:50 < kanzure> i think that you will find that nobody said that the miners own bitcoin
19:50 < www> if your assessment is right, gmaxwell, then bitcoin seems broken to me, because the miners (handful entities) have too much power
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19:50 < kanzure> well it's also possible that the design is achieving something other than what you had considered
19:51 < www> i remember satoshi writing about 'one-cpu-one-vote'
19:52 < kanzure> that was one of the things he was wrong about
19:52 < kanzure> byzantine sybil resistance is incompatible with counting cpus
19:52 < www> but with counting asics it is?
19:54 < www> I also remember somebody quoting gavin "in the long run bitcoin will not be secured by PoW"... any development in this direction?
19:54 < kanzure> you also can't count asics because they have no identity
19:54 < kanzure> and identity is spoofable. that's what sybil resistance protects against.
19:55 < www> good point
19:56 < www> but you see that the initial design goals also evolve over time
19:56 < kanzure> if you say so
19:57 < www> are you a miner?
19:57 < www> operator?
19:57 < kanzure> i have been known to flip a few bytes
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20:02 < www> so let me sum it up: there is no good way to add extended* public keys to the blockchain. bitcoin is controlled by a handful of people. and maybe: trusting identities is bad but trusting computational power is a good thing.
20:02 < www> i am not convinced ;)
20:06 < kanzure> "there is a specific design to bitcoin that makes some ideas workable and others not"
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20:36 < gmaxwell> The hashpower distribution is currently busted. There are reasons to think things will improve. The bustedness is less concerning when the use is less trusting / less censorable (or could easily become much harder to censor); when you talk about something like a key value store, these current issues may be much more relevant.
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20:38 < gmaxwell> I didn't say that 'trusting identities' is bad, it is what it is.  But if you're going to trust parties to run a query server for you; why not trust them to just keep the database too; and then you remove a whole host of failure modes, and are just left with the trust related one.
20:40 < gmaxwell> since you can't do an efficient secure lookup against bitcoin, you assume some trusted servers (or at least some threshold like the majority is honest)  OKAY; there are cases where thats totally reasonable. So why not stop there and use that rather than adding additional weaknesses and costs? thats all I was pointing out.
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21:02 < www> thanks for your feedback, gmaxwell. I get what you say. the reason why to have the data on-chain is to have a open API where you don't need to ask for permission to use it. the trusted parties simply proxy you the results but ideally you interact directly with the blockchain. at least there is the option.
21:04 < www> of course this is flawed when transactions get blocked by some miners.
21:04 < gmaxwell> It's important to avoid decenteralization-theater though.  E.g. if looking up names securely requires at 300 GByte download, whos going to do that?  I say its important to avoid, because if we pretend something has all these fantastic security properties that it doesn't have in practice, then we're setting people up for a massive falure.  Sort of the mess we've arrived at with the web CA system.
21:05 < gmaxwell> e.g. under some theory of operation the SSL/CA model could be quite nice, in the end the security it provides is very thin (e.g. anyone who can MITM your webserver towards the internet can get a cert as you) because of how its praticaly deployed and used.
21:12 < www> well... everybody who wants to become a trusted party for his friends/customers can easily download 300 GB. in case you bootstrap your chain via a torrent, this could be way less, right? the important thing is that entities can freely access the complete data for themselves or for others and that they can also disappear and be replaced by others (in case they become unreliable or loose reputation for a reason). yes, it is a layer on top of t
21:15 < www> hmm blockchain size is just 35 GB? also a super cool sidechain could be made for this, no? :D
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21:16 < gmaxwell> right now, though the rules of the network let it grow 52gb/yr currently; and there is a proposal to increase that to 1TB/yr.
21:16 < gmaxwell> www: there are lots of ways to accomplish it in a parallel network sure, dunno that a sidechain would be super applicable though.
21:20 < www> 1TB/yr is worst case, though. in 10 years 1 TB/year will also not really matter maybe. And is not one of the points to have sidechains that you don't need to be a full node for all the network but that you can be just a "full" node for your sidechain?
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21:20 < www> can't the nodes of sidechains be teached to validate OP_RETURN data in a arbitrary way?
21:22 < gmaxwell> www: well it wouldn't be OP_RETURN... it would just be transaction data. ... but no thats not my point. If your system is just a database of X there is may be no reason to involve a cryptocurrency in it.
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21:22 < gmaxwell> Surprise: there are other kinds of distributed database than blockchains!
21:22 < www> if a currency comes for free, why not use it for having a fee structure?
21:23 < www> ...to avoid spam e.g.
21:23 < www> seems useful
21:24 < gmaxwell> True, though antispam can be done without the complexity of a two-way peg. E.g. by proof of solvency, or by hashcash, etc. lots of options.
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21:25 < www> if hope you are working on abstracting the complexity of a two way peg ;)
21:25 < www> by the way, when will it be ready?
21:25 < www> on mainnet
21:26 < gmaxwell> "When its ready" :)
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21:26 < www> and... how long will the debate be on whether or not sidechains need to be introduced? just looking at the current blocksize debate. such a super simple thing takes so much resources.
21:27 < www> was there a debate when the blocksize limit got introduced? was there a debate when the OP_RETURN size got halved? don't know
21:27 < gmaxwell> The blocksize stuff is a hard fork; it basically takes the rules of bitcoin and rewrites them to be against the current rules, everyone has to change, everyone is impacted.
21:28 < gmaxwell> op_return stuff is just node policy not a consensus rules of the system at all.
21:29 < gmaxwell> The 2wp stuff merely requires script enhancements, in fact I'm reasonably confident that it was actually possible (though a bit ugly) with bitcoin script before opcodes were disabled.
21:29 < gmaxwell> In any case, soft-forks; while also not trivial are much easier.
21:30 < www> sounds good
21:30 < gmaxwell> since, so long as they don't restrict tx patterns people are already using-- you're mostly free to not use them.
21:32 < www> but the nodes/miners need to understand that the new transactions are valid, otherwise they will reject them?
21:34 < gmaxwell> no, a soft fork only restricts the space of valid transactions. it takes a transaction that the old network sees like "anyone can spend" and restricts it to "can spend according to these rules"
21:34 < gmaxwell> it's like subtractivel carving a new feature out of marble.
21:35 < www> could altcoins become sidechains of bitcoin?
21:35 < www> migrate....
21:35 < www> WITH their own PoW?
21:36 < gmaxwell> well the whole thing about bitcoin sidechains is that they're backed by bitcoin, the bitcoin has to come from somewhere. And yes, a sidechain can have its own POW, at least so long as the chain its aside knows how to verify that POW if the spv-2wp is used.
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21:37 < www> but altcoins could become 'assets' on a bitcoin sidechain then...?
21:38 < www> so you would pay just the tx fee with bitcoin
21:39 < gmaxwell> I'm not sure why you'd want to do that, but sure.
21:40 < www> back to the soft fork: what if half of the network plays according to the old rules "anyone can spend" and the other half restricts spending to the new rules. who is right?
21:42 < gmaxwell> hashpower majority; which is why soft-forks don't activate until picked up by a supermajority of hashpower. http://bitcoin.sipa.be/ver-ever.png  shows the process for two softforks.
21:43 < www> could not the same be done with the blocksize issue (hardforks)?
21:43 < www> a fork is a fork
21:44 < www> i like the idea of having multiple with each other interacting blockchains with different PoW. would add security in my eyes.
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21:48 < www> soft fork = fork on transcation level. hard fork = fork on block level (?) - both to be avoided in every case
21:55 < phantomcircuit> www, soft fork is when the change is backwards compatible
21:57 < phantomcircuit> ie rejecting transactions which the older versions accept is backwards compatible so long as the majority of mining power follows those new rules
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21:57 < phantomcircuit> a hard fork is a change which older versions reject
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22:14 < phantomcircuit> https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/39hgzc/blockstream_cofounder_president_adam_back_phd_on/cs3ue6g
22:15 < phantomcircuit> "you're being too logical" -cypherdoc
22:15 < phantomcircuit> that is pure comedy gold
22:15 < gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: perhaps but not really ontopic here!
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