--- Log opened Thu Jun 25 00:00:51 2015 00:12 -!- jposner [~jposner@198.144.156.117] has quit [] 00:13 -!- nwilcox_ [~nwilcox@c-73-202-109-21.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:14 -!- nwilcox [~nwilcox@c-73-202-109-21.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:15 -!- Mably [56401ec3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.86.64.30.195] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:21 -!- goregrind [~goregrind@unaffiliated/goregrind] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:37 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 00:37 -!- goregrind [~goregrind@unaffiliated/goregrind] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:52 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@76-255-129-88.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:53 -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@D979E961.cm-3-2d.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:53 -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@D979E961.cm-3-2d.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Changing host] 00:53 -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:54 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:56 -!- gielbier [~giel@f142219.upc-f.chello.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:01 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has quit [Quit: Bye] 01:03 -!- andy-logbot [~bitcoin--@wpsoftware.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:03 -!- andy-logbot [~bitcoin--@wpsoftware.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:03 * andy-logbot is logging 01:12 -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@239-196-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:14 -!- rubensayshi [~ruben@91.206.81.13] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:21 -!- nwilcox [~nwilcox@c-73-202-109-21.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:22 -!- akstunt600 [~ak@65-78-62-173.c3-0.upd-ubr2.trpr-upd.pa.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:23 -!- MatrixBridge [mistake__m@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-uedtdtztgjoehmzb] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:36 -!- orperelman [~orperelma@bzq-109-67-207-175.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:42 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:45 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:50 -!- moa [~kiwigb@opentransactions/dev/moa] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:58 -!- akstunt600 [~ak@65-78-62-173.c3-0.upd-ubr2.trpr-upd.pa.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:58 -!- drwin [~drwin@88-103-255-166.jes.cz] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:10 -!- moa [~kiwigb@opentransactions/dev/moa] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:10 -!- moa [~kiwigb@opentransactions/dev/moa] has quit [Client Quit] 02:11 -!- moa [~kiwigb@opentransactions/dev/moa] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:16 -!- spinza [~spin@197.89.24.164] has quit [Excess Flood] 02:17 -!- TheButterZone [~TheButter@unaffiliated/thebutterzone] has quit [Quit: http://fs.tbz1.com] 02:20 -!- spinza [~spin@197.89.24.164] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:25 -!- paveljanik [~paveljani@unaffiliated/paveljanik] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:59 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 03:04 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@76-255-129-88.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 03:17 -!- husanu1 [~husanu@91.199.104.6] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:24 -!- husanu1 [~husanu@91.199.104.6] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:24 -!- husanu2 [~husanu@91.199.104.6] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:27 -!- husanu2 [~husanu@91.199.104.6] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:28 -!- husanu2 [~husanu@91.199.104.6] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:28 -!- Populus [Populus@unaffiliated/populus] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:28 -!- Populus [Populus@unaffiliated/populus] has quit [Changing host] 03:28 -!- Populus [Populus@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-kzqzsnijouffpxqi] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:29 -!- husanu2 [~husanu@91.199.104.6] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:31 -!- www [~v3@f052069221.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:42 -!- hashtag [~hashtag@cpe-69-23-213-3.ma.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:50 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:00 < Emcy> is it worth signing up for the new dev list 04:00 < kinlo> aren't we being migrated? 04:00 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:00 < Emcy> thats why i said new dev list 04:01 < kinlo> last mail I read was that the new list was in test only, and that you could subscribe to test 04:01 < kinlo> oh 04:01 < kinlo> didn't read the last mail yet 04:02 < kinlo> seems we do need to subscribe manually 04:03 -!- hashtag [~hashtag@cpe-69-23-213-3.ma.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:10 -!- hashtag [~hashtag@cpe-69-23-213-3.ma.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:15 -!- prodatalab [~prodatala@2602:306:ceef:a750:2063:1bb1:fe78:b04c] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:19 -!- gill3s [~gill3s@pat35-3-82-245-143-153.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 04:21 -!- gill3s [~gill3s@pat35-3-82-245-143-153.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:23 < wumpus> yes, you need to subscribe to the new dev list manually. Whether it's worth it is up to you (and off topic), the old one is defunct. 04:31 < kinlo> wumpus: I'd assume ppl would get migrated, but indeed, it's offtopic to discuss the sf soap 04:31 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:35 < wumpus> auto-subscribing people to mailing lists is considered bad netiquette, and this is an opportunity to get rid of inactive subscribtions. To see if you missed any messages see the archives: https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/ 04:36 -!- Alanius_ [~alanius@ssh2.ulyssis.student.kuleuven.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:36 < wumpus> there was an 'emergency migration' mail to the old list, but I think no one got it because of sourceforge's mass bounce mess-up 04:37 -!- Alanius [~alanius@ssh2.ulyssis.student.kuleuven.be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:41 -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:47 -!- hashtag [~hashtag@cpe-69-23-213-3.ma.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:48 -!- Populus [Populus@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-kzqzsnijouffpxqi] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:49 -!- jmcn_ [~jamie@2.24.158.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 277 seconds] 04:50 -!- jmcn [~jamie@2.24.158.34] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:52 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:02 -!- Mably [56401ec3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.86.64.30.195] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 05:05 -!- erasmospunk [~erasmospu@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/erasmospunk] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:05 -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@239-196-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:16 -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@239-196-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:23 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r167-56-137-196.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:23 -!- Mably [56401ec5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.86.64.30.197] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:28 -!- gill3s [~gill3s@pat35-3-82-245-143-153.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…] 07:02 < fluffypony> http://www.dwavesys.com/press-releases/d-wave-systems-breaks-1000-qubit-quantum-computing-barrier 07:05 -!- ruby32 [~ruby32@38.121.165.30] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:07 < nsh> 'qubit' 07:09 -!- Emcy_ [~MC@cpc3-swan1-0-0-cust996.7-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:09 -!- Emcy_ [~MC@cpc3-swan1-0-0-cust996.7-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Changing host] 07:09 -!- Emcy_ [~MC@unaffiliated/mc1984] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:13 -!- Emcy [~MC@unaffiliated/mc1984] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:16 -!- hearn [~mike@178.197.231.90] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:17 -!- Artimage [d88b8b32@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.216.139.139.50] has quit [Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client] 07:21 < StephenM347> Is there a notation for an HD path of a public point derived from a path of hardened children? i.e. point(m/44'/0'/0') 07:21 -!- UllrSkis [~UllrSkis@c-66-41-201-92.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:22 < StephenM347> M/44'/0'/0' doesn't really seem right because you can't derive 44' from M 07:22 -!- Mably [56401ec5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.86.64.30.197] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:22 < StephenM347> By 'a notation' I mean something other than point(...), as that's not really a common notation for a path 07:26 -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:29 -!- Artimage [d88b8b32@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.216.139.139.50] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:31 -!- jps [~Jud@198.199.83.156] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:32 < Eliel> wumpus: at least I received the emergency migration mail. 07:32 -!- K1773R [~K1773R@unaffiliated/k1773r] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:32 -!- jmcn [~jamie@2.24.158.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:33 -!- jmcn [~jamie@2.24.158.34] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:33 -!- K1773R [~K1773R@unaffiliated/k1773r] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:36 -!- hashtag [~hashtag@cpe-69-23-213-3.ma.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:36 -!- Xh1pher [~Xh1pher@pD9E3A97A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Xh1pher] 07:36 < nsh> StephenM347, what's used in the HD wallet BIP? 07:37 < StephenM347> nsh: N(...), I think 07:37 < nsh> https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0032.mediawiki#Private_parent_key_rarr_private_child_key 07:37 < nsh> serP(point(kpar)) || ser32(i)). 07:37 < nsh> that's a serialized point though i think 07:39 < StephenM347> nsh: I'm more thinking about notation for a parseable path that can be saved and used to re-derive the key later 07:39 < StephenM347> Not notation that is easy to read in a paper or something 07:39 * nsh nods 07:41 -!- jmcn [~jamie@2.24.158.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:41 -!- jmcn [~jamie@2.24.158.34] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:44 -!- b_lumenkraft [~b_lumenkr@unaffiliated/b-lumenkraft/x-4457406] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:45 -!- Artimage [d88b8b32@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.216.139.139.50] has quit [Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client] 07:46 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:47 -!- barthG [~b4rth@li578-62.members.linode.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:50 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:51 -!- goregrind [~goregrind@unaffiliated/goregrind] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:51 -!- Artimage [d88b8b32@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.216.139.139.50] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:00 -!- Mably [56401ec5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.86.64.30.197] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 08:02 -!- hearn [~mike@178.197.231.90] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…] 10:31 -!- Artimage [d88b8b32@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.216.139.139.50] has quit [Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client] 10:32 -!- spinza [~spin@197.89.39.228] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:33 -!- getplank [~getplank@65.88.88.203] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:33 -!- Artimage [d88b8b32@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.216.139.139.50] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:41 -!- jmcn [~jamie@2.24.158.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 275 seconds] 10:41 -!- jmcn [~jamie@2.24.158.34] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:44 -!- bosma [~bosma@S01067cb21bda6531.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:54 -!- bosma [~bosma@S01067cb21bda6531.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:00 -!- husanu0 [~husanu0@5-12-36-106.residential.rdsnet.ro] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:01 -!- gill3s [~gill3s@pat35-3-82-245-143-153.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 11:06 -!- nwilcox_ [~nwilcox@74-95-207-205-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:10 -!- rubensayshi [~ruben@91.206.81.13] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:10 -!- shen_noe [~shen_noe@wired042.math.utah.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:11 -!- hearn [~mike@84-75-197-78.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:12 -!- husanu0 [~husanu0@5-12-36-106.residential.rdsnet.ro] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:17 -!- zooko [~user@2601:281:8101:3c71:a904:ea97:db9f:7760] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:23 -!- face [~face@mail.hmel.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:33 -!- chmod755 [~chmod755@unaffiliated/chmod755] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:41 -!- arubi_ [~ese168@unaffiliated/arubi] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:44 -!- hashtag [~hashtag@cpe-69-23-213-3.ma.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:45 < Eliel> Bitcoin has some perceived decentralization problems due to the mining and mining pool thing. I just realized that this is due to the market realizing there are two separate jobs in mining that Bitcoin design tried to mix up. One job is to be a witness (mining pools) for the state of the ledger and the other is to carve the witnessed state into permanent ledger (miners). 11:50 < Eliel> the witness job looks to be one that needs to be tied to an identity. So might as well make use of that and have a cryptographic identity for each witness. Then it'd become possible for witnesses to witness each other witnesseses witnessing and thus form a data structure that could be difficult to forge. Especially if we have miners cementing that structure. 11:53 < Eliel> it'd create a kind of a witness network where the presence of witness loops (or cycles) in the network graph would allow verifying the entire structure as long as you trust one single witness somewhere. 11:54 -!- Artimage [d88b8b32@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.216.139.139.50] has quit [Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client] 11:55 < Eliel> there could also be two levels of witnesses. Ledger witnesses and witness witnesses. The first ones are those who verify the ledger. The witness witnesses just witness the witnessing and record that. 11:55 < kanzure> yes i believe this strategy is called "ask a friend" 11:56 * nsh blinks 11:56 * kanzure witnesses nsh blinking 11:56 < nsh> i'm pretty sure you can't witness things cyclically without a time machine 11:56 * Eliel witnesses kanzure witnessing nsh blinking 11:57 < Eliel> (now, if kanzure witnessed my witnessing of his witnessing, there would be the kind of cycle I talk about) 11:57 < kanzure> and why would that be useful? 11:58 -!- jmcn [~jamie@2.24.158.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:58 < kanzure> proof-of-work forgeproofing works because it puts an economic floor on the cost of the probability of you being tricked 11:58 -!- jmcn [~jamie@2.24.158.34] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:58 < kanzure> otherwise it's just absurdly cheap 11:59 < Eliel> because, everyone who's part of the cycle must cooperate to succesfully falsify the data. If it becomes possible for anyone to be part of the witnessing network... 11:59 < Eliel> well, the data structure would become enormous but no-one needs all of it. 11:59 < kanzure> i'm not sure it requires individuals to falsify the data- for sufficiently large networks, most users will not be able to practically meet and know each person or memorize their keys, so it's more likely that large networks are just randomly generated sybils 12:00 < Eliel> each individual node can do just fine with a few verified "connections" they witness. 12:00 < kanzure> i think that you might have more success narrowing the scope of which things you want to make unfalisifiable 12:00 < Eliel> as long as that connects them to the network 12:01 < Eliel> this is sufficient for timestamping. 12:02 -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-185-201-214-201.cm.vtr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:03 < Eliel> in short, it doesn't matter if falsifying the ledger is simple if anyone you want to fool then has the data they need to prove you abused your witnessing powers. 12:06 -!- spinza [~spin@197.89.39.228] has quit [Excess Flood] 12:07 -!- SubCreative [~SubCreati@unaffiliated/cannacoin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:11 -!- spinza [~spin@197.89.39.228] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:13 -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-185-201-214-201.cm.vtr.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:14 -!- kmels [~kmels@93.166.151.186.static.intelnet.net.gt] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:14 -!- nwilcox_ [~nwilcox@74-95-207-205-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:14 < Eliel> in such a case, you don't need a lot of ledger witnesses. As long as it's possible to add more or even completely replace them in the event that the existing ones prove themselves to be completely untrustworthy. 12:17 -!- Populus [Populus@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-bjirbmmefyylkyrg] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:17 -!- Populus [Populus@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-bjirbmmefyylkyrg] has quit [Changing host] 12:17 -!- Populus [Populus@unaffiliated/populus] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:17 -!- Populus [Populus@unaffiliated/populus] has quit [Changing host] 12:17 -!- Populus [Populus@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-bjirbmmefyylkyrg] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:18 -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-185-201-214-201.cm.vtr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:21 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:26 -!- Populus [Populus@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-bjirbmmefyylkyrg] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:27 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:30 -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-185-201-214-201.cm.vtr.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:31 -!- kmels [~kmels@186.64.110.122] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:31 -!- akstunt600 [~ak@65-78-62-173.c3-0.upd-ubr2.trpr-upd.pa.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:37 -!- shaul [~shaul@static-108-30-103-59.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:37 -!- b_lumenkraft [~b_lumenkr@unaffiliated/b-lumenkraft/x-4457406] has quit [Quit: b_lumenkraft] 12:46 -!- palexander [~Patrick@67.41.40.110] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:47 -!- palexander [~Patrick@67.41.40.110] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:52 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@76-255-129-88.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:53 < zooko> Eliel: I liked Joe Bonneau's paper on "Agile Tokens". It seems kind of relevant to what you were talking about -- "ledger witnesses". 12:59 -!- ManicMiner [~chatzilla@host86-164-118-72.range86-164.btcentralplus.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:00 -!- orperelman [~orperelma@bzq-109-67-207-175.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:00 -!- ManicMiner [~chatzilla@host86-164-118-72.range86-164.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:00 -!- orperelman [~orperelma@bzq-109-67-207-175.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:08 -!- UllrSkis [~UllrSkis@c-66-41-201-92.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:13 -!- hashtag_ [~hashtag@cpe-69-23-213-3.ma.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:15 -!- waxwing is now known as oakpac1fic 13:15 -!- oakpac1fic is now known as waxwing 13:15 -!- hashtag [~hashtag@cpe-69-23-213-3.ma.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:16 -!- execut3 [~shesek@IGLD-84-228-3-15.inter.net.il] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:17 -!- hashtag_ [~hashtag@cpe-69-23-213-3.ma.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:19 -!- sparetire_ [~sparetire@unaffiliated/sparetire] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:19 -!- erasmospunk [~erasmospu@adsl-16.37.6.242.tellas.gr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:24 -!- erasmospunk [~erasmospu@adsl-16.37.6.242.tellas.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:26 -!- erasmospunk [~erasmospu@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/erasmospunk] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:30 -!- zooko [~user@2601:281:8101:3c71:a904:ea97:db9f:7760] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:31 -!- execut3 [~shesek@IGLD-84-228-3-15.inter.net.il] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:32 -!- akrmn [~akrmn@55-215-250-178.ftth.cust.kwaoo.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:37 -!- davi [~davi@gnu/davi] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:41 -!- jgarzik [~jgarzik@unaffiliated/jgarzik] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:43 -!- kmels [~kmels@186.64.110.122] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:44 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:46 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r167-56-137-196.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:54 -!- kmels [~kmels@186.64.110.122] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:59 -!- mjerr [~mjerr@p578EAB34.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:00 -!- orperelman [~orperelma@bzq-109-67-207-175.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:00 -!- orperelman [~orperelma@bzq-109-67-207-175.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:01 -!- hashtag_ [~hashtag@cpe-69-23-213-3.ma.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:05 -!- veox [~veox@shinji.veox.pw] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:07 -!- Mashuri [a8a1c00f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.168.161.192.15] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:20 -!- spinza [~spin@197.89.39.228] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:20 -!- nwilcox [~nwilcox@108-254-146-175.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:23 -!- spinza [~spin@197.89.39.3] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:25 -!- jaekwon [~jae@c-50-185-138-22.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:39 -!- zooko [~user@2601:281:8101:3c71:c5b:7fa4:2758:9d7] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:40 -!- orperelman [~orperelma@bzq-109-67-207-175.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:40 -!- zooko [~user@2601:281:8101:3c71:c5b:7fa4:2758:9d7] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:41 -!- hearn [~mike@84-75-197-78.dclient.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…] 16:06 -!- nessence_ [~alexl@c-68-51-194-2.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:08 -!- ruby32 [~ruby32@38.121.165.30] has quit [Quit: ruby32] 16:12 -!- Mably [~Mably@unaffiliated/mably] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:12 -!- jmcn [~jamie@2.24.158.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:17 -!- PRab [~chatzilla@2601:40a:8000:8f9b:959b:96b6:9b51:62f5] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.91.1 [Firefox 38.0.5/20150525141253]] 16:20 -!- jmcn [~jamie@2.24.158.87] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:21 -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:22 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: :)] 16:30 -!- PaulCapestany [~PaulCapes@204.28.124.82] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:34 -!- jaekwon [~jae@2601:645:8001:f5c8:2c04:22e:3c5:92de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:40 -!- zooko [~user@2601:281:8101:3c71:c5b:7fa4:2758:9d7] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:44 -!- nwilcox [~nwilcox@108-254-146-175.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:45 -!- jaekwon [~jae@2601:645:8001:f5c8:2c04:22e:3c5:92de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:45 -!- www1 [~v3@x5ce0f924.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:45 -!- www [~v3@f052069221.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:48 -!- shen_noe [~shen_noe@wired042.math.utah.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:51 -!- austinhill [~Adium@bas1-montreal43-1177755675.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:12 -!- StephenM347 [~stephenm3@static-64-223-246-218.port.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [] 17:15 -!- shen_noe [~shen_noe@wired042.math.utah.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:19 -!- nessence [~alexl@c-68-51-194-2.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:20 < ThinThread> why the block height isnt in the block header? 17:23 < phantomcircuit> ThinThread, why would it need to be in the block header? 17:30 -!- nwilcox [~nwilcox@50.254.137.169] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:32 -!- execut3 [~shesek@IGLD-84-228-3-15.inter.net.il] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:33 -!- 7GHAAJ33L [~nwilcox@50.254.137.169] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:38 -!- nwilcox [~nwilcox@50.254.137.169] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:38 -!- 7GHAAJ33L [~nwilcox@50.254.137.169] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:38 -!- nwilcox [~nwilcox@50.254.137.169] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:42 -!- execut3 [~shesek@77.126.73.182] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:44 -!- kmels [~kmels@186.64.110.122] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:46 -!- moa [~kiwigb@opentransactions/dev/moa] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:49 -!- nwilcox [~nwilcox@50.254.137.169] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:49 -!- nwilcox [~nwilcox@50.254.137.169] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:50 -!- belcher [~belcher-s@unaffiliated/belcher] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:51 -!- sy5error [~sy5error@unaffiliated/sy5error] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:56 -!- hashtagg_ [~hashtag@cpe-69-23-213-3.ma.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:00 -!- hashtag_ [~hashtag@cpe-69-23-213-3.ma.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:06 -!- Mashuri [a8a1c00f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.168.161.192.15] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:13 -!- zooko [~user@c-73-181-114-84.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:21 -!- tlrobinson [~tlrobinso@204.14.159.161] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:39 -!- austinhill [~Adium@bas1-montreal43-1177755675.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:39 -!- tlrobinson [~tlrobinso@204.14.159.161] has quit [Quit: tlrobinson] 18:39 -!- tlrobinson [~tlrobinso@204.14.159.161] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:41 -!- Mashuri [a8a1c00f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.168.161.192.15] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 18:42 -!- tlrobinson [~tlrobinso@204.14.159.161] has quit [Client Quit] 18:46 -!- hashtagg_ [~hashtag@cpe-69-23-213-3.ma.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:54 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@unaffiliated/dr-g] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:56 < CodeShark> so in the end, blockchains are just going to be dispute resolution mechanisms - sort of like a fix to the prisoner's dilemma, making cooperation the equilibrium strategy 18:58 -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@xd9bf7137.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:58 < CodeShark> and a second potential application for them is censorship resistance...but this one's a little less clear to me 19:01 -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-185-201-214-201.cm.vtr.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:02 -!- nwilcox [~nwilcox@50.254.137.169] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:02 -!- belcher [~belcher-s@unaffiliated/belcher] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:03 -!- go1111111 [~go1111111@104.200.154.33] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:07 -!- hashtag [~hashtag@cpe-69-23-213-3.ma.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:10 -!- dc17523be3 [unknown@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-wsyrdwtybivjyxbt] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:11 -!- dc17523be3 [unknown@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-xkwvoovwuatkeoac] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:11 -!- kmels [~kmels@186.151.61.184] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:11 -!- nwilcox [~nwilcox@50-0-142-94.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:18 -!- zooko [~user@c-73-181-114-84.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 19:20 < leakypat> CodeShark: is this in reference to the hyperledger thing ? 19:21 < CodeShark> leakypat: not specifically... 19:21 < CodeShark> leakypat: just a general observation :p 19:21 < leakypat> The word blockchain is one of those catch on words 19:22 < leakypat> It's now used to loosely describe anything that uses distributed data and crypto of some kind 19:30 -!- MatrixBridge [matrixirc@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-whzaolvjubcmddkd] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:56 -!- palexander [~Patrick@67.41.40.110] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:01 -!- hashtag [~hashtag@cpe-69-23-213-3.ma.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:06 -!- Aquentin [~Aquentin@unaffiliated/aquentin] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:08 < Eliel> yes, it's becoming somewhat too broad of a word to be useful in the general sense it's being used. 20:09 -!- shen_noe [~shen_noe@172.56.39.60] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:10 -!- hashtag [~hashtag@cpe-69-23-213-3.ma.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:13 < leakypat> Funny to watch Blythe Mathers talk about this 20:13 < leakypat> "Make no mistake, this will change everything" 20:14 -!- nwilcox [~nwilcox@50-0-142-94.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:14 < leakypat> The tech has been around and possible for years, it is a case of banks collaborating and building a system they all use 20:16 < leakypat> *Masters 20:17 < CodeShark> distributed ledgers aren't the exact same thing as a trustless dispute resolution mechanism 20:17 < CodeShark> although they surely are ultimately a building block 20:19 < leakypat> It's probably a lot better business this stuff, for profit *now* 20:19 * leakypat imagines the consultancy fees 20:20 < leakypat> It's annoying how certain people position it as some competitor to Bitcoin 20:23 -!- PRab [~chatzilla@2601:40a:8000:8f9b:959b:96b6:9b51:62f5] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:27 -!- www1 [~v3@x5ce0f924.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:32 -!- shen_noe [~shen_noe@172.56.39.60] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:32 -!- nessence [~alexl@c-68-51-194-2.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:36 -!- Emcy_ [~MC@unaffiliated/mc1984] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:37 -!- zooko [~user@2601:281:8101:3c71:c5b:7fa4:2758:9d7] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:37 -!- TheSeven [~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven] has quit [Disconnected by services] 20:38 -!- [7] [~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:40 < CodeShark> the real breakthroughs right now seem to be happening in the area of how to construct proofs over these ledgers with minimal need for validation 20:41 < CodeShark> the default behavior is to assume cooperation - but if there's a dispute, both parties do worse than had they cooperated 20:42 -!- jaekwon [~jae@2601:645:8001:f5c8:2c04:22e:3c5:92de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:42 < CodeShark> and the proofs are based on interactive cryptographic protocols 20:43 < CodeShark> or noninteractive...in the case of the need to take the dispute global 20:43 < CodeShark> but that's usually only a last resort 20:44 -!- go1111111 [~go1111111@162.244.138.37] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:46 < CodeShark> the key is to try to make it so that the need to validate is the exception rather than the rule...or at least can be done using nondeterministic sampling 20:46 < CodeShark> or preferably both :) 20:48 -!- nessence [~alexl@c-68-51-194-2.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:49 < moa> the blockchain is judge, jury and executioner in a smart contract 20:50 < CodeShark> right, moa...but it's best not to even have to take the case to court :) 20:51 < moa> which is the default behavioour in a civilised society 20:51 -!- jaekwon [~jae@2601:645:8001:f5c8:2c04:22e:3c5:92de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:53 < moa> smart contracts are probably more properly referred to as executable contracts 20:53 < zooko> Dumb, but executable. 20:53 < moa> otherwise what if there was smart smart contract, like and executable contract that was well-written? 20:53 < zooko> "smart" means (a) drains your battery faster, (b) doesn't work sometimes for random reasons, (c) is loyal to a large remote corporation instead of to you. 20:54 < moa> right 20:54 < moa> clever smart contracts? 20:56 -!- erasmospunk [~erasmospu@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/erasmospunk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:57 -!- Guest19249 [~quassel@50-0-37-37.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 20:57 -!- maaku [~quassel@50-0-37-37.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:58 -!- maaku is now known as Guest21521 21:05 -!- jaekwon [~jae@2601:645:8001:f5c8:2c04:22e:3c5:92de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:09 < CodeShark> (a) and (b) could be mitigated somewhat with good engineering, but (c) is still a problem :p 21:12 -!- Populus [~Populus@unaffiliated/populus] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:14 < CodeShark> it's already hard enough with the current EULA crap we have to read - imagine the average joe having to analyze code :p 21:15 < zooko> CodeShark: the average joe needs a bot on his side. 21:16 < CodeShark> sooner or later you run into either complexity or undecidability issues 21:16 < CodeShark> at least if P != NP :p 21:16 < zooko> Um, I'm skeptical. 21:16 < CodeShark> there's always ways to fool a bot 21:17 < zooko> The bot that fights for the user doesn't need to statically analyze the code. 21:17 < zooko> (Note: can we call it Tron, please?) 21:17 < CodeShark> lol 21:17 -!- Populus [~Populus@unaffiliated/populus] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:18 -!- Populus [Populus@unaffiliated/populus] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:18 -!- Populus [Populus@unaffiliated/populus] has quit [Changing host] 21:18 -!- Populus [Populus@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-huurnqipwtxkorna] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:19 < moa> wonder if 'Tron' or "I fight for the user" are trademarked? 21:23 < moa> apparently it is ... google search shows up a 1989 email exchange to a usenet newsgroup asking/answering that question ! 21:25 < CodeShark> smart attorneybots? 21:26 < CodeShark> attorneybot contracts? 21:27 < moa> expert witness = oracles 21:27 < CodeShark> this is definitely going to get very interesting :) 21:28 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:43 -!- hashtag [~hashtag@cpe-69-23-213-3.ma.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:43 < zooko> By the way, Tron was Alan Kay. 21:51 -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-185-201-214-201.cm.vtr.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:51 -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-185-201-214-201.cm.vtr.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:53 -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-185-201-214-201.cm.vtr.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:01 -!- chmod755 [~chmod755@unaffiliated/chmod755] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:09 -!- zooko [~user@2601:281:8101:3c71:c5b:7fa4:2758:9d7] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:09 -!- mjerr [~mjerr@p578EAB34.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:10 -!- Giszmo1 [~leo@pc-185-201-214-201.cm.vtr.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:11 -!- Giszmo1 [~leo@pc-185-201-214-201.cm.vtr.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:11 -!- Giszmo1 [~leo@pc-185-201-214-201.cm.vtr.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:14 -!- Giszmo1 [~leo@pc-185-201-214-201.cm.vtr.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:20 -!- Giszmo1 [~leo@pc-185-201-214-201.cm.vtr.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:43 -!- Populus [Populus@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-huurnqipwtxkorna] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:48 -!- cosmo [~james@unaffiliated/cosmo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:48 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:48 -!- Emcy [~MC@unaffiliated/mc1984] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:49 -!- p15x [~p15x@182.50.108.36] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:51 -!- Guest21521 is now known as maaku 22:53 -!- jposner_ [~jposner@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/jposner] has quit [] 22:57 -!- d1ggy [~d1ggy@p20030057E71779682C55D4246D303A31.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:59 -!- d1ggy_ [~d1ggy@p20030057E7177950B98C80B7729EF243.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:07 -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@239-196-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:17 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:17 -!- mjerr [~mjerr@p578EAB34.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:20 < leakypat> So 3 big pools have come out against the XT hard fork now... 23:24 -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@239-196-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:31 -!- p15x_ [~p15x@182.50.108.65] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:32 -!- p15x [~p15x@182.50.108.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:33 < leakypat> Oops, misleading headline in coin telegraph , my bad 23:40 -!- hashtag [~hashtag@cpe-69-23-213-3.ma.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:45 -!- hashtag [~hashtag@cpe-69-23-213-3.ma.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:45 -!- Mably [~Mably@unaffiliated/mably] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:55 -!- erasmospunk [~erasmospu@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/erasmospunk] has joined #bitcoin-wizards --- Log closed Fri Jun 26 00:00:38 2015