--- Log opened Tue Jun 30 00:00:56 2015
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04:50 < kanzure> http://blogs.aws.amazon.com/security/post/TxCKZM94ST1S6Y/Introducing-s2n-a-New-Open-Source-TLS-Implementation
04:50 < kanzure> .title https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9804349
04:50 < yoleaux> AWS s2n – open source TLS implementation in 6000 lines of code | Hacker News
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10:08 < kanzure> halp i got stuck http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3axnc3/this_is_the_definition_of_fud_how_to_subvert/csmfqpp?context=1
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10:15 < gmaxwell> kanzure: okay
10:17 < kanzure> hmm if the original signatures are still necessary then there's not much space saved
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10:19 < gmaxwell> wtf. of course they aren't.
10:19 < gmaxwell> how the heck dould you have extracted that from my message??
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10:37 < kanzure> there's no details either way on that front in your message i think; you pass the inputs to signature verification, but that's the same whether there is a missing intermediate history regardless.
10:37 < kanzure> (more broadly, i am just engaging in the discussion here; i don't think it's a problem with your reply on reddit)
10:42 < gmaxwell> kanzure: I revised it some. :)
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12:13 < kanzure> "Not unlike things in Bitcoin today, but the signatures are combined with O(1) size."
12:13 < kanzure> ah yes that is much more clear
12:13 < kanzure> also: O(1) is very very exciting
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15:37 < akrmn> ok multisig command works. I generated my own public keys, because obviously you can't go from address to public key
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16:23 < solaire> hello
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16:37 < CodeArtix> hello
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17:04 < CodeShark> could we gain anything from rolling back only bad transactions and dependencies but keeping the block for PoW?
17:05 < CodeShark> and for the other unaffected transaction chains
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17:05 < CodeShark> so we don't need to do full block reorgs
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17:08 < CodeShark> a repudiation mechanism that punishes validators that didn't catch the error and rewards validators that find it :)
17:09 < phantomcircuit> CodeShark, speed of light issues iirc
17:09 < CodeShark> or provers that find it, rather
17:10 < CodeShark> how is speed of light an issue? block propagation time is still far from relativistic timescale
17:12 < CodeShark> the idea is if a particular block propagates, the network could tolerate the case of one or two specific transactions in the block being bad and not being immediately detected
17:12 < CodeShark> the damage to the ledger as a whole would be minimal
17:14 < CodeShark> granted the error is caught sufficiently quickly
17:14 < CodeShark> perhaps it's a stupid idea...just pondering out loud :p
17:14 < phantomcircuit> CodeShark, how does having two blocks at the same height help you in anyway?
17:14 < phantomcircuit> i dont get it
17:15 < CodeShark> no, I think we're talking about different things perhaps
17:15 < CodeShark> you still have a well-ordered block chain
17:15 < CodeShark> presumably with very short side branches
17:16 < CodeShark> the motivation is not requiring full validation to still contribue PoW...but at the cost of risk...or something like that
17:17 < CodeShark> that's to say, reorgs only affect a very small number of transaction chains
17:18 < CodeShark> delegated validation...or blah, I don't know :p
17:18 < CodeShark> nvm...perhaps it doesn't make any sense at all
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17:22 < CodeShark> I guess at a more fundamental level, I'm talking about adding a little more fault tolerance to validation with economic levers that strongly incentivize cooperation
17:23 < CodeShark> by "reorg" I'm not talking about two blocks competing for the same height
17:23 < CodeShark> I'm talking more generally some invalidation that has occured
17:23 < CodeShark> most difficult chain being surpassed is one such instance
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17:29 < CodeShark> from a structural perspective it would be nice if the effects of chain invalidation (at whatever level of abstraction) could be isolated and made not to affect much of the global transaction settlement
17:30 < CodeShark> because this is what makes reorgs so potentially costly
17:31 < kanzure> well, just wait for more confirmations- this will make the effects almost entirely irrelevant for the vast majority of all reorgs
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17:37 < CodeShark> point is the more we can localize reorgs the less of the global history everyone needs to be aware of
17:38 < CodeShark> or rather...what I mean is the the less that the network as a whole is impacted and disrupted
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17:52 < CodeShark> any chain invalidation is potentially costly...especially as the number of dependencies grows
17:53 < CodeShark> which makes the structure EXTREMELY brittle
17:54 < CodeShark> eventually we'll need consensus protocols that can be more fork-tolerant, I think ;)
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18:07 < CodeShark> I'm also speaking of transaction replacement in mempool and other such instances of invalidation chins
18:07 < CodeShark> *chains
18:09 < justanotherusr> CodeShark: how do you localize a reorg safely?
18:10 < CodeShark> you can start by considering the diffs
18:10 < CodeShark> what contracts remain in place?
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18:13 < CodeShark> if only a relatively small portion of the network is affected by a change, perhaps it isn't necessary to make it matter at all to people who don't care about those differences
18:14 < CodeShark> it's something like a revocation mechanism
18:16 < CodeShark> but revocation or invalidation of a chain isn't necessarily free...it could come at a high cost
18:16 < CodeShark> question really is: who's paying the bill?
18:17 < CodeShark> and will there ultimately be convergence on consensus?
18:20 < CodeShark> any such mechanism inherently carries risks...but if we can quantify the risks and allocate them algorithmically I think we're doing great :)
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18:40 < justanotherusr> how do you come to consensus on what should be in a reorg without a new consensus mechanism? :)
18:44 < CodeShark> you nuke it
18:44 < CodeShark> basically, "kids, solve it yourselves or lose it all" :p
18:46 < CodeShark> but everyone else's transactions continue to process on cue
18:48 < CodeShark> if there's a fundamental consensus incompatibility, the system is screwed anyway...
18:48 < CodeShark> but at least it could recover gracefully from relatively small glitches
18:49 < CodeShark> it would be nice for it not to be quite so fragile - to be able to support a little more uncertainty
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18:53 < CodeShark> and to find ways to contain disputes to be as local as possible
18:55 < justanotherusr> the solution is making a reorg unlikely by waiting
18:55 < CodeShark> from the perspective of an end user, sure
18:56 < CodeShark> from the perspective of a protocol designer that's still a crapload of overhead
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18:57 < justanotherusr> Are you proposing there is another solution? I don't see one in the scrollback
18:57 < CodeShark> you can make it possible to invalidate specific transaction chains
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19:04 < CodeShark> invalidate by signature, not by censorship :p
19:04 < CodeShark> with a settlement
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19:11 < CodeShark> the real solution to RBF seems to be to provide for transaction repudiation
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19:12 < CodeShark> the existence of transaction X makes the existence of Y irrelevant
19:13 < CodeShark> so if both get published on the block chain, X wins out...and Y potentially costs the miner money
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19:14 < CodeShark> this would allow for deterministic fee updates after-the-fact
19:16 < CodeShark> and ultimately doesn't depend on any particular relay policy
19:19 < CodeShark> or perhaps clever uses of locktime :p
19:20 < CodeShark> nah, the real solution to fees starts by separating the fee as an explicit output :)
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19:23 < moa> it's explicitly the difference between the inputs and the outputs isn't it?
19:24 < CodeShark> yes...but the current structures are horrendous at making this easy to calculate :p
19:25 < CodeShark> also, it's nice to have the local symmetry...the sum of all edges is zero
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19:30 < CodeShark> currently, you really do need the whole mempool to make basic fee calculations :p
19:30 < CodeShark> as well as the transactions that anchor it into the blockchain
19:31 < CodeShark> it's stupid, really - lol
19:38 < CodeShark> or perhaps stupid isn't the right adjective - let's say frustrating :)
19:41 < CodeShark> it limits our tools to devices that have at least a certain amount of resources and a decent quality network connection
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19:42 < CodeShark> to perform an operation that is practically trivial ;)
19:43 < CodeShark> or, of course, it breaks our trust model (I sometimes wonder whether people in this space really care about this one anymore, though)
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