--- Log opened Wed Jul 01 00:00:57 2015
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01:43 < amiller> the new "Enigma" project from MIT media lab... it's multi-party computation on the blockchain http://enigma.media.mit.edu/
01:44 < amiller> whitepaper [x]    scholarly paper [ ]    code [ ]
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01:46 < amiller> i can't figure it out: are they just proposing to put the entire transcript of a generic multi-party computation on the blockchain? or is there some fancy way of compressing that down
01:46 < gmaxwell> you can tell by the 'media' in the URL.
01:46 < gmaxwell> amiller: there is a trivial way to compress it down, as discussed here before in the past; dunno what they suggest.
01:47 < gmaxwell> (any turn based MPC you have the players sign off at each step with a state commitment, so you can truncate the transcript.. if they complete and all sign the final step, you can just elide the whole transcript)
01:48 < amiller> gmaxwell, ok i know what you mean - they're claiming this defends against users/clients/public against ALL of the MPC nodes going bad
01:48 < amiller>                          but
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01:49 < M-_mis> ' "invalidate by signature, not by censorship" —@CodeShark
01:50 < gmaxwell> uhh. not sure how that works unless the MPC is active secure and produces ZKPs as a side effect (many active secure ideas are just passive secure plus a ZKP, so thats not far fetched).
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02:04 < midnightmagic> lol, DHT rises again
02:09 < amiller> yeah that's the next big problem
02:09 < amiller> there's just a DHT thats assumed to work
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02:12 < amiller> another problem is they don't seem to put much thought into protecting your data from colluding nodes
02:12 < amiller> this is from the wired article: "If enough Enigma nodes work together, they can team up to decrypt and steal the user’s data. But that kind of collusion isn’t likely, says Zyskind."
02:13 < gmaxwell> :-/
02:14 < amiller> but section 5.3 "network reduction" actually makes that much worse: "a random subset of the entire network is selected to perform a computation"
02:14 < gmaxwell> makes me think of that torcoin paper where they just defined out sybil attacks.
02:15 < CodeShark> if you can't change the theory change the facts :p
02:16 < CodeShark> and pretend like someone's done the math but don't want to bore them with the details if anyone asks
02:17 < CodeShark> decentralization without proper incentives == centralization with a lot of extra headache
02:21 < gmaxwell> sounds like an interesting effort in any case, I've queued it to actually read.
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02:32 < nsh> DHT plus secret-sharing plus threshold computation plus blockchain for access and reference
02:32 < nsh> plus a lot of hyperbole
02:33 < amiller> they have a peer-reviewed workshop paper (paper) http://web.media.mit.edu/~guyzys/data/ZNP15.pdf  (slides) http://ieee-security.org/TC/SPW2015/IWPE/5.pdf
02:34 < CodeShark> ehm...what can I say...I encourage people to think about these kinds of issues :)
02:36 < amiller> yeah, definitely
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02:38 < nsh> it's all grist [and probably unpruneable UTXOs] to the mill
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02:54 < CodeShark> oh he's even got Gentry's "Fully homomorphic encryption using ideal lattices." in his biblio :p
02:54 < CodeShark> or they, I should say
02:57 < amiller> that's fine, it doesn't overstate anything about FHE... although the wired article makes it seem like FHE is what they're doing :)
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03:31 < amiller> "Using Bitcoin security deposits for punishing malicious nodes in MPC has been investigated by several scholars recently [22, 23].  We use a similar model, and extend it to penalize other malicious behaviors such as breaking correctness"
03:31 < amiller> so, the other academic papers on multiparty computing in Bitcoin, including [22, 23] are way further along
03:33 < amiller> these are peer reviewed a lot more strictly... viciously might be the best word... in the most selective conferences like Crypto and Oakland
03:35 < amiller> the main novelty Enigma is claiming compared to those is enforcing correctness even if a majority of the nodes in a computation are corrupted
03:35 < amiller> but that's exactly the thing that seems (unless we missed something surprising!) to add totally impractical on-chain costs
03:38 < amiller> they forgot a subsequent CCS paper (another elite conference) by authors of [22] http://people.csail.mit.edu/ranjit/papers/incentives.pdf  and a new preprint by other authors http://eprint.iacr.org/2015/574
03:39 < amiller> all of these feature *off chain multi-party computations*!
03:40 < amiller> and thats a great idea
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03:43 < nsh> those last two papers (and talks at simons inst.) were pretty impressive
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03:58 < amiller> speaking of which... the "spacecoin" author also visited simons inst.   i appreciate the spacecoin paper way more now after watching its author bash with bramc at the sf bitcoin dev meetup
03:59 < nsh> was that recorded?
04:00 < amiller> i thought it was. but i can't find it on here http://www.meetup.com/SF-Bitcoin-Devs/events/223291673/
04:00 < nsh> ah
04:04 < nsh> .wik Pebble motion problems
04:04 < yoleaux> "The pebble motion problems, or pebble motion on graphs, are a set of related problems in graph theory dealing with the movement of multiple objects ("pebbles") from vertex to vertex in a graph with a constraint on the number of pebbles that can occupy a vertex at any time. Pebble motion problems occur in domains such as multi-robot motion  …" — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pebble_motion_problems
04:05 < amiller> pebbling is a proof technique in cryptography, it's good for showing that there's no space-time tradeoff in various ways
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04:06 < amiller> i guess its always used to show something about time-memory tradeoffs
04:06 < amiller> the hard-to-parallelize ones i think don't use that proof technique
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04:07 < nsh> ah
04:08 < nsh> .wik Pebble game
04:08 < yoleaux> "In mathematics and computer science, a pebble game is a type of mathematical game played by moving "pebbles" or "markers" on a directed graph. A variety of different pebble games exist. A general definition of pebbling is given below." — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pebble_game
04:09 < amiller> here's i think the first one to do that http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~hoeteck/pubs/pebble-crypto05.pdf to do that
04:10 < nsh> and this comes up: High Parallel Complexity Graphs and Memory-Hard Functions -- https://eprint.iacr.org/2014/238.pdf
04:11 < amiller> yup, would you believe that was also a talk at simons isnt. but it went unrecorded
04:11 < nsh> shame
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04:16 < nsh> "Commonly G describes the dependencies between inputs, intermediate values and the outputs involved in computing f_G."   # interesting. i wonder what a pebbling of a hash collision looks like
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06:28 < nsh> what was the wizardly-wisdom on the darkleaks concept?  i seem to recall some theoretical issue with the random reveal scheme maybe
06:29 < nsh> ( https://github.com/darkwallet/darkleaks )
06:30 < nsh> wow, google sure updates the logs for this channel with gusto... 20s after writing that line it was a result in a search.
06:31 < nsh> ah, found " though sadly the utility is kind of narrow. The class of information where a random sample doesn't stand a risk of giving away all the value, and where the value can't be sapped by a few careful redactions which sampling is unlikely to reveal (even if it hits them, you can't tell what was missing), I think is not so broad." -- gmax
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11:07 < Taek> Is there a good definition for the idea of a 'political entity'?
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11:08 < Taek> i.e., Google, while composed of 10,000s of people, is generally considered as 1 entity, because everyone acts with united purpose
11:09 < Taek> and so Google owning 51% mining power would be very bad
11:09 < Taek> even if no particular person is controlling more than 20% of the mining rigs within Google
11:10 < Taek> something like the coalition of mining pools in China wouldn't necessarily be considered 1 political entity though, because their common goals are under very constrained terms
11:11 < ThinThread> is humanity a (possibly galactic) political entity?
11:11 < Taek> they are 1 entity as far as their cooperation around 8mb blocks is concerned, but beyond that they can be considered separate
11:11 < Taek> I think it depends on what set of goals you are considering
11:12 < ThinThread> i like to focus on our similarities instead of our differences
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11:13 < Taek> that's great, but understanding our differences is useful for constructing threat models
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12:22 < waxwing> nsh: one issue with that repo was use of ECB mode :)
12:22 < nsh> darkleaks?
12:23 < waxwing> yeah
12:23 < nsh> :/
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12:26 < waxwing> the kind of issue you mention in the quote above, yeah that's an issue. the most obvious application, given that limitation, seems like the most depressing: password database leaks
12:26 < waxwing> but maybe that's too pessimistic, one could imagine other use cases perhaps
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18:15 < amiller> hi GGuyZ
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18:17 < amiller> GGuyZ, your connection seems super unstable! you should try an irc bouncer like znc
18:18 < GGuyZ> Unfortunately it's my wifi that's going crazy. I'll leave the channel for a bit to prevent spamming :).
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18:18 < amiller> sadfjpo
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19:59 < moa> http://it.slashdot.org/story/15/07/01/0214248
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--- Log closed Thu Jul 02 00:00:58 2015