--- Log opened Tue Jul 07 00:00:03 2015
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01:26 < TheLast> why are you allowed to send transactions without any fee?
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01:29 < Adlai> fees are a DDoS resistence mechanism. mining is [currently] subsidized by inflation.
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01:29 < TheLast> exactly, so why does the network allow you to send transactions without paying any fee?
01:30 < TheLast> should these not be blocked entirely to prevent spam attacks
01:31 < TheLast> like the one we're currently seeing
01:32 < Adlai> "spam" is fiction. there is a price for priority insertion to the ledger, and it adapts based on the queue size and how much others are willing to pay.
01:33 < gmaxwell> TheLast: those attackers are paying fees. very tiny fees, but normally transactions pay very tiny fees.
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01:56 < gmaxwell> Zerocash circuits published http://www.metzdowd.com/pipermail/cryptography/2015-July/025977.html
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02:13 < TheLast> gmaxwell: do you think these spam attacks are bad for Bitcoin?
02:15 < gmaxwell> TheLast: I don't think most people notice them at all, due to reasonably prioritization policies in some miners most txn go though without much delay.
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02:16 < gmaxwell> AFAICT it's some promotion stunt to raise attention for some scammy website or something, who knows, who cares.
02:16 < stonecoldpat> TheLast: considering these spam attacks and network forks, the price of bitcoin remains unaffected (has in fact gone up) -  so most users dont really care
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02:36 < CodeShark_> stonecoldpat:  I don't think most users aren't even really aware. Did anyone even cover these things in the popular press?
02:37 < gmaxwell> CodeShark_: if the attacks mattered people would be aware of them without coverage!
02:37 < CodeShark_> *are
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02:38 < CodeShark_> gmaxwell: did you compile that dropped tx list?
02:39 < gmaxwell> CodeShark_: still reindexing; :( lost a couple hours away from power, it'll be done in the morning.
02:39 < gmaxwell> speaking of that, goodnight
02:39 < CodeShark_> goodnight
02:45 < stonecoldpat> night, and CodeShark_: I dont think there is anything in popular press which is probably a good thing (boring news)
02:46 < CodeShark> well, at least some people surely noticed some unusually deep reorgs
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03:39 < JackH> is the only available Bitcoin core version 10? unless I compile myself? For ubuntu
03:39 < JackH> only = latest
03:40 < CodeShark> try #bitcoin
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12:12 < amiller> https://eprint.iacr.org/2015/430 Fast and Tradeoff-Resilient Memory-Hard Functions for Cryptocurrencies and Password Hashing
12:12 < amiller> i don't think this has been brought up here before
12:15 < nsh> BrainOverfl0w mentioned it in may and I found it again the other week looking into pebbling to understand spacecoin security
12:16 < amiller> hm
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12:18 < nsh> actually, no, i'm thinking of another paper
12:18 < zooko> There's a discussion about this topic on, um, I think on Perry's Metzdowd crypto list, right now.
12:18 < zooko> Bill Cox
12:18 < zooko> and Solar Designer
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12:19 < nsh> .title http://www.metzdowd.com/pipermail/cryptography/2015-July/025971.html
12:19 < yoleaux> [Cryptography] Are Momentum and Cuckoo Cycle PoW algorithms broken?
12:20 < nsh> (cc tromp_)
12:21 < amiller> zooko, i don't see any discussion, just the post from bill cox... and it doesn't mention that paper
12:21 < nsh> (same)
12:22 < zooko> Sorry . Here it is:
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12:23 < zooko> http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.security.phc/3104
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12:35 < zooko> and http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.security.phc/3123
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13:29 < zooko> http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.security.phc/3104/focus=3126
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13:35 < bramc> zooko, Password hashing schemes aren't proof of work schemes
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13:36 < bramc> Password hashing is supposed to be expensive to verify. Proof of work is supposed to be cheap to verify.
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13:37 < zooko> bramc: that's what that link is about.
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13:42 < gmaxwell> zooko: bleh. I think that whole discussion is OT for PHC.  A point you may be missing there is that an ideal consensus POW function is progress free-- progress gives advantages to centeralized attackers; so thats an extra consideration around a single run of the algorithim taking a long time.
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13:45 < zooko> gmaxwell: yeah, that's a very good point.
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13:56 < pigeons> what is an advantage of "memory hardness"?
13:56 < zooko> Posted a further extension of the talking-to-myself-off-topic thread on PHC…
13:56 < bramc> pigeons, Memory is more commodity than CPU. A memory hard problem might be more resistant to custom chips outperforming commodity ones
13:57 < bramc> Whether that's a real benefit is a different discussion
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13:58 < nsh> the main advantage is advancing the state of understanding of the hardness of making things hard
13:58 < pigeons> yeah i think i saw some info on "outperforming" being arguable considering energy use
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13:59 < zooko> Oh by the way, we did a thing: https://leastauthority.com/blog/least_authority_performs_incentive_analysis_for_ethereum.html
14:01 < zooko> Hiya polyclef!
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14:07 < fluffypony> lol
14:08 < polyclef> hey zooko!
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14:15 < Luke-Jr> pigeons: basically memory-hard aims for "RAM is the ASIC"
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14:21 < amiller> the distinction between memory-hard and memory-bound is important here too
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14:21 < bramc> I thought ethereum was a cow system
14:22 < fluffypony> it is
14:22 < amiller> bramc, ethereum is so far a memory-throughput-bound PoW system, with plans to switch to filet mignon in a year or so
14:25 < bramc> It seems like the latest ethereum proof of work involves having a somewhat expensive to calculate data set which you reuse a lot
14:26 < bramc> The idea being that you take a seed, hash it to find out which indices you need, look up those indices, and hash them together.
14:29 < bramc> er, actually it doesn't decide which things to hash together up front but pulls them in one at a time after hashing the last one
14:30 < bramc> It look annoyingly expensive to verify, basically requiring 32 megabytes of memory to run the verification process
14:31 < amiller> yes it requires 32MB of memory to verify
14:32 < amiller> they just endure that verification expense
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14:37 < CodeShark_> As long as the verification cost is near-fixed, near-independent of the pow cost, 32MB isn't such a huge cost
14:37 < zooko> I just wrote a note to password-hashing mailing list mooting a 1 GiB cost to verify! :-(
14:38 < kanzure> is this the same mailing list? https://password-hashing.net/interaction.html
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14:39 < CodeShark_> But that was for server applications (i.e. authentication), no zooko?
14:39 < zooko> kanzure: yes
14:40 < zooko> CodeShark_: no, for a cryptocurrency.
14:40 < CodeShark_> For large servers 1GB to secure passwords isn't such a huge cost
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14:40 < CodeShark_> But for mobile cryptocurrency wallets, 1GB is still significant
14:40 < zooko> Yeah.
14:41 < CodeShark_> It probably won't be in a few years, though :)
14:42 < Luke-Jr> CodeShark_: well, it's also important for the PoW to be *cheap* to avoid DoS risks and minimise IBD time
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14:43 < zooko> Luke-Jr: what's IBD stand for?
14:43 < Luke-Jr> Initial Blockchain Download
14:43 < Luke-Jr> Litecoin is slower to IBD than Bitcoin in part because of their PoW
14:44 < zooko> Hm.
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14:44 < CodeShark_> ideally we'll eventually move to more succinct proofs that don't sacrifice security
14:46 < CodeShark_> I don't think it's really necessary to run through the entire network history to validate the present state
14:48 < CodeShark_> But yes, luke-jr - mSIGNA takes much longer to validate the litecoin block headers than bitcoin
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14:51 < CodeShark_> it's also why litecoin uses separate hash functions for PoW and for indexing (I think)
14:52 < kanzure> hmm https://github.com/jancarlsson/kapital
14:53 < gmaxwell> kanzure: you're like a whole day late on that. :)
14:59 < Eliel> practically speaking, there's no reason for any single person to validate any block twice. For my own use, given that I had a secure way to generate signatures with a personal high security key, I could just trust any block that's been signed with it.
15:00 < kanzure> gmaxwell: a new low for me... alas.
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15:02 < fluffypony> kanzure: if it's zero knowledge then how can anyone know it, duh
15:03 < fluffypony> also have we spoken about how HackingTeam's dump includes a BTC wallet swiper...
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15:03 < kanzure> no, although i think everyone saw it
15:04 < gmaxwell> I'd pinged someone to fetch the arcive to look for bitcoin stuff.
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15:06 < kanzure> actually, do we have a link to the swiper
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15:12 < fluffypony> yes hold
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15:14 < fluffypony> https://github.com/informationextraction/core-win32/blob/8eb1326959fcb5c727513b59b86386dae7463683/HM_Money.h#L64
15:14 < fluffypony> https://github.com/informationextraction/core-linux/blob/9252cba42283e71d7858292a400f6c94043ee8ff/core/src/module_money.c#L24
15:15 < kanzure> yeesh even feathercoin? how desperate are they.
15:15 < fluffypony> lol
15:16 < leakypat> fluffypony: was the HT thing targeting core specifically ?
15:16 < fluffypony> seems so
15:17 < fluffypony> "%APPDATA%\\Bitcoin\\wallet.dat"
15:17 < kanzure> what's really weird is that you don't need to detect specific altcoins; a generic bitcoin-core sniffer would have worked fine
15:17 < kanzure> almost all of them have the same wallet.dat filename anyway
15:17 < leakypat> What a shitty company
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15:18 < leakypat> By the looks of the leaks all their tools are garbage also
15:19 < kanzure> well to be fair they did get hacked pretty hard
15:19 < kanzure> so might explain their approach to security as well (low quality)
15:19 < leakypat> Yep, it is very funny
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15:56 < leakypat> Ah, full RBF is so much nicer than FSS
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15:57 < leakypat> For progressively increasing fees FSS is only really good for an emergency one time push
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15:59 < leakypat> Although that would be a godsend at the moment
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20:57 < bramc> I've made some progress on understanding the intuitions behind the PoS paper
20:57 < bramc> PoS has a bit of collision with proof of space and proof of steak. Maybe we should call it PSPACE to be less confusing
20:57 < kanzure> stake
20:58 < kanzure> as for anti-ambiguity measures, i'm all for that
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20:58 < bramc> It's steak I tell you, that's why they're called CoW systems
20:58 < kanzure> "oh that's the docker thing"
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21:01 < bramc> Anyway, an important element of the whole thing is that the amount of calculation necessary to generate the precommitment for the whole proof of space is somewhat larger than the amount of space being proven, because a significant amount of it isn't kept around
21:05 < bramc> The general framework is that the challenge and the root are hashed together to show which ancestors have to be revealed
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21:06 < bramc> And the overall construction is set up so that you can store an appropriate subset of ancestors so that you always have what you need
21:06 < bramc> (I guess 'almost always' would be sufficient, that may enable some improvements)
21:08 < bramc> But maybe as part of the proof process you need to read more things than are part of the proof proper
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21:11 < bramc> There are potential problems with seek times. I'll need to work through everything with an eye towards figuring out if the whole thing winds up being disk bandwidth limited on the generation side, that could ruin everything
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21:16 < bramc> Hopefully the proof sizes aren't (log(n))^2, that would kind of suck
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21:18 < CodeShark> PoSp vs PoSt? ;)
21:18 < CodeShark> PSPACE is a complexity class
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21:26 < bramc> CodeShark Yes I was making an attempt at this thing called 'humor' which people keep telling me about
21:31 < CodeShark> what's that?
21:31 < CodeShark> is humor similar to PSPACE?
21:32 < CodeShark> PoHAHAHA
21:33 < CodeShark> let's just call it George
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22:14 < CodeShark> does George require the storage be local to be efficient? if not wouldn't that imply it's bandwidth-limited?
22:15 < CodeShark> or if so, rather
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