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04:37 < waxwing> is there a nice writeup anywhere of how schnorr sigs could enable multisig/threshold sigs?
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10:27 < ruby32> is there any literature available on the practical use-cases of CLTV (other than the obvious inheritance example that i see everywhere)?
10:29 < GAit> ruby32: trustless payment channels? https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0065.mediawiki see motivations
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10:51 < amiller> i think checklocktimeverify can make those lottery examples and cross-chain-atomic swap examples much easier
10:51 < amiller> and require fewer complicated rounds of interaction between the parties
10:52 < amiller> you *can* do it without CLTV, but you need to basically create a transaction ahead of time with an nLockTime, get the other party to sign it without seeing the transaction it depends on
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11:39 < Eliel> amiller: isn't that somewhat risky due to malleability?
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11:51 < amiller> Eliel, yeah i think so... so CLTV means you can do this without worrying about malleability too another benefit
11:52 < GAit> Eliel: only if the attacker knows the transaction or has enough reach to malleate enough % of transaction to make payment channel generally insecure/risky
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11:53 < nsh> can you elaborate GAit
11:54 < GAit> I was agreeing with Eliel
11:54 < GAit> and amiller
11:55 < GAit> i recall someone at some point malleating a lot of transaction
11:55 < nsh> ok
11:56 < Eliel> My understanding is that the current bitcoind limits relaying malleated transactions quite a bit by having more strict rules for relaying than what is accepted in blocks.
11:58 < Eliel> I expect relay level protections are good enough for practical use.
11:58 < Eliel> as in, it'd basically take a miner wilfully including malleated transactions for anything to happen.
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11:59 < GAit> as of now any implementation would need to be prepared to catch malleated confirmed transaction and provide new nLockTime transaction
12:00 < GAit> with CLTV it's atomic, although i often wonder about its privacy implication
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12:01 < Eliel> Well, if the malleability issue can be tackled, I don't think CLTV is particularly useful for this use case.
12:01 < iddo> attacker can attach higher fee to the malleated transaction, so it'd depend on whether miners are running unmodified client, or they're rational
12:02 < iddo> CLTV is great, it removes the need for refund transaction, in payment channels etc.
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12:02 < iddo> also solves malleability
12:02 < waxwing> i guess people here would know, am i right in saying that the definition of c_i in 4.4 of the cryptonote whitepaper is wrong?
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12:07 < iddo> actually i guess i'm wrong, attacker cannot change the fee in transaction he mutated
12:07 < amiller> has anyone written the CLTV version of our favorite transactions
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12:08 < amiller> waxwing, what's wrong with it?
12:09 < amiller> oh
12:09 < waxwing> amiller: it says c - sigma(c_i) for i=0 to n
12:09 < waxwing> should be i != s or some such
12:09 < amiller> it should be c - sum(w_i, for i not in s)
12:09 < amiller> yeah
12:09 < waxwing> trivial but when you're clueless these things slow you down :)
12:10 < waxwing> would have been more intuitive to use w_i instead of c_i as well
12:10 < amiller> yes
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13:11 < jcorgan> woo my bitnodes hardware just arrived.  there goes the rest of my afternoon :-)
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13:36 < nsh> oh, that thing looks very cool! ( https://getaddr.bitnodes.io/hardware/ )
13:37 < nsh> would get more points for grsec/pax rather than vanilla ubuntu, tor support
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13:43 < jcorgan> i'll be hacking in Tor support
13:43  * nsh smiles
13:43 < jcorgan> shouldn't be hard, just apt-get installing and config file changes
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13:56 < jcorgan> i think the board also has a wifi interface on it, would be nice to untether it from the LAN
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15:28 < Adlai> so if waxwing broke the ice, may i complain about line 107 of borromean_draft_0.01_8c3f9e7 ?
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15:28 < Adlai> nsh: last i checked they ship 0.10.2 :(
15:30 < nsh> ah
15:32 < Luke-Jr> kinda defeats the point if you can't control the software easily
15:32  * Adlai is clueless about these things, shouldn't each e_i commit the previous s dot g plus current e dot ?
15:33 < Adlai> then you forge by fixing the previous (ie, last you generate, first you _calculate_) s?
15:33 < Adlai> previous s dot g plus current e dot P
15:34 < Luke-Jr> wat
15:35 < Adlai> http://i.imgur.com/OqcjL1e.png
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16:09 < dpfs> Any good advice out there for blockKicked block recovery/resubmit for valid bitcoin block kicked due to bad worker/user names? Already deleted Redis database entries on all shares associated with bad worker/user names while trying to fix issue. Any help and reward of 10% goes to you. We are using NOMP.
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16:20 < dpfs> ping admin
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16:22 < Adlai> !ops
16:22  * Adlai brainstorms the nicest way to spell 'gtfo'
16:24 < dpfs> Kicks work well
16:24  * Adlai kicks dpfs in the shins
16:25  * dpfs crying
16:25 < Adlai> so you'd actually have to calculate all but the first s, but only the last calculation involves the signing key
16:27  * dpfs at hospital with broken leg
16:27 < dpfs> Every share or block hash?
16:27  * Adlai casts it to an int, clots overflow and now broken(dpfs->leg) -> 0
16:28 < Adlai> dpfs: http://i.imgur.com/OqcjL1e.png
16:28 < Adlai> also /topic, at least read the logs, it's the least a spammer could do
16:29 < dpfs> You'd be surprised how close on topic I am.
16:29  * Adlai loves supplies
16:29 < dpfs> I have more than a few things to contribute here once I get past this.
16:30  * dpfs wondering what's wrong with piping to null
16:30  * Adlai redirects /dev/null to /u/nullc
16:32 < Adlai> also, "reward of 10% goes to you" seems the antithesis of "not about short-term Bitcoin development"
16:32 < Adlai> at the very least pitch your needs in #blockstream
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16:34 < dpfs> Unless, I'm also implementing error correction in code and not just some noob trying to save a lost buck...
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16:35 < dpfs> If you have some ideas, please share. Otherwise, stfu because you're making it obvious that you have no knowledge to share.
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16:35 < Adlai> all i know is that i'm clueless about these things so my job is to slow you down
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16:36  * dpfs grins
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16:37 < kanzure> fluffypony: ping
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16:39 < dpfs> Btw, the only solution for new theoretical ideas to come to market is creating the public perception that it's an accounting solution.
16:39 < Adlai> please shill joinmarket elsewhere
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16:42 < dpfs> What's Adlai an acronym for? Anti Developer Lacking All Intelligence?
16:43 < Adlai> Androirc Does Leak All Internetprotocoladdresses
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16:47  * dpfs grins
16:47 < dpfs> That is cool
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16:49 < dpfs> Seriously, if my question is *that* rattletrip --it's faster to eliminate things by letting it pass.
16:50 < dpfs> Similar to IP
16:50 < dpfs> Detection is a 2-way street
16:50 < gmaxwell> Adlai: No. Go try to figure out how you'd sign for that.
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16:53 < dpfs> Jesus, it's been training others all day and I can't get some input to save my crippled legs lol
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16:54 < M-_mis> .
16:55 < dpfs> Adlai: You wouldn't believe how many devs I talk to that don't understand the basic concepts Debit && Credit who think they have the next big idea.
16:55  * nsh points to the quiet, people reading sign on the wall
16:55 < Adlai> so... "just choose s_i at random" is confusing me. the random scalar is k_j, s_i depends only on e_i-1 until i=j
16:56 < nsh> Adlai, you can 'go back in time' on any vertex in the borromean ring
16:56 < nsh> it's arbitrary
16:56 < Adlai> don't you need to know x for that vertex?
16:57  * Adlai is assuming 'you' only know one x
16:57 < Adlai> aka x_j
16:57 < MatrixBridge> <M-_mis> posted an image: http://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/nLEWUrtrGpFSPPsoKsPEjZcE - Screenshot from 2015-07-14 19:58:47.png (2801KB)
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16:59 < nsh> Adlai, are you thinking about multi-signer rings?
17:00  * Adlai is thinking about lines 106-111 of the borromean rings paper: http://i.imgur.com/OqcjL1e.png
17:01 < nsh> the [simplifying] assumption is that one person/alphad generates that whole commitment cycle
17:01 < nsh> so which segment you fake by choosing e nonradonmly is arbitrary
17:01 < nsh> and the best way to pick is at random
17:02 < nsh> (only secure way to pick is at random)
17:02 < Adlai> but the cryptosystem described in that paragraph doesn't depend on that?
17:02 < nsh> in general, you can have groups of signers proving arbitrary monotone functions on their possession of private keys
17:02  * Adlai is trying to understand the paper, not the code
17:03 < prosodyContext> .
17:03 < nsh> in which case each signer would have to pick at random from amongst the  e's they contributed
17:03 < nsh> when making the loops
17:03 < Adlai> still, you need to know x_j for the k_j which you generate randomly
17:05 < Adlai> assuming you know only one x_j, you could still pick which e to call "e_0"
17:05 < Adlai> for the signature which you ultimately publish
17:05 < nsh> you publish the whole structure
17:06 < Adlai> The final signature is σ = {e 0 , s 0 , s 1 , . . . , s n−1 }.
17:07 < M-_mis> mwowm
17:11 < Adlai> couldn't that be rephrased as "the signer publishes each s_i and any one of the e_i" ?
17:11 < nsh> yes, that might have avoided some confusion
17:12 < Adlai> although specifying that the published e is e_0 makes clear which s_i matches
17:12 < nsh> it's just symmetry and convention and deficiencies in linear script :)
17:12 < Adlai> Linear C?
17:12 < nsh> i mean, the fact that we express ideas sequentially
17:13 < nsh> you can't efficiently textually convey an ordering symmetry
17:14 < nsh> mathematics and language could be better married, conceivably. though we do amazing well, considering
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17:17 < prosodyContext> (:)
17:17 < M-_mis> (∫)
17:20 < M-_mis> (. _<3 ) )) )*
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17:22 < prosodyContext> ... ** an ordering (r)economy?
17:22  * nsh frowns
17:22 < prosodyContext> reconemetry/end
17:23  * M-_mis sings and er or runs amway
17:23 < nsh> is it a special drinking day someone and someone forgot to tell me?
17:23 < nsh> *somewhere
17:23 < prosodyContext> maps.org
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17:24 < Adlai> if you're gonna burn altruistically, there are so many better destinations
17:24 < M-_mis> .. .
17:24 < prosodyContext> _.
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17:26 < prosodyContext> ._.
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17:29 < prosodyContext> E_Reconomwy.∫(.._
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17:34 < nsh> prosodyContext, M-_mis if you are human, can you please stop posting nonsense
17:34 < nsh> thanks
17:35 < prosodyContext> nsh, r u raciscnsht? er just heardly hearing?
17:36 < justanotheruser> !ops
17:37 < prosodyContext> I just want to read. Red. Thlog thnk you. tyl
17:37 < prosodyContext> .∫/me /end
17:37 -!- mode/#bitcoin-wizards [+o gwillen] by ChanServ
17:37 <@gwillen> prosodyContext: please stop that
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17:48 < gmaxwell> Adlai: no. e0 is always e0. Changing which E you'd send wouldn't help at all, unless you broke the commitment structure (e.g. by including s values in the commitment) in which case it would leak whick one it was signing.
17:48  * dpfs faceplanted
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19:33 < prosodyContext> Jargon is key, if I may say. It helps to have thlog(? Mwake an engry face if thiz willim getemeff banned.U222b∫(?
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19:51 < prosodyContext> CI
19:52 < prosodyContext> CILL
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19:56 < M-_mis> EILL
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23:38 < fluffypony> kanzure: pong
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--- Log closed Wed Jul 15 00:00:11 2015