--- Log opened Fri Jul 17 00:00:13 2015
--- Day changed Fri Jul 17 2015
00:00 < gmaxwell> I guess one possibility is that you fall back to fetching the block from an archive that has the whole thing, and then you'll know which peers to ban. Worst case overhead: one full block transfered per set of bad peers rejected.
00:01 < rusty> gmaxwell, Taek: seems a weird thing to do when txs with proofs are so compact, and having whole txs allows some kinds of verification to be distributed between nodes.
00:01 < Taek> I also wonder if there isn't some cryptographic way to prove concisely that your piece was generated honestly
00:01 < gmaxwell> Might not be bad, though I dunno that 1% is low enough a rate... and needing 100 peers is pretty tall. Though some peers could store larger amounts.
00:03 < Taek> it also might be sufficient to just consider it as a contingency plan (IE the archive goes dark or something)
00:03 < gmaxwell> Taek: nah, I think most of the use of having distributed blocks is avoiding huge bandwidth costs at archives.
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00:03 < gmaxwell> (distributed historic block storage, that is)
00:04 < gmaxwell> (in particular huge bandwidth loads at archives leaves them more DOS vulnerable)
00:04 < Taek> presumably a professional archive is going to be able to have lower costs because they sit at a datacenter. I guess I am assuming that the archives is charging for downloads
00:04 < gmaxwell> The store whole blocks scheme does at least have the nice property that every returned block is trivially provable from the single peer that gives it to you.
00:05 < gmaxwell> Taek: consider how many parties will bother to run full nodes if you must _pay_ to initilize one; in light of the behavior we observe today.
00:05 < Taek> rusty: I don't grok
00:06 < Taek> gmaxwell: a fair counterpoint.
00:07 < rusty> Taek: if you want a node to store 1% of block history, why not have it just pick 1 random block in 10, a random subset of continuous transactions (a tenth of the block's total).  It's trivial for it to store and supply merkle proofs that those are correct.
00:10 < rusty> Taek: OTOH, fountain codes are cool.
00:10 < Taek> rusty: there's a greater risk that there will be transactions which are never picked, or at least that a disproportionately small number of nodes have certain transactions
00:11 < Taek> with fountain codes, you're basically guaranteed to recover the full thing after hitting (data size) + (marginal overhead)
00:15 < rusty> Taek: Well, you could do both.  Collect all the blocks.  Keep some chunks, generate your own fcs for <some coverage>.  Peers ask for chunks first, fcs second?
00:17 < Taek> there may be some hybrid scheme which gets some benefits of each method.
00:18 < Taek> Is this the type of thing you could use snarks to solve? (block with hash X + encoding scheme with seed Y = piece with hash Z), then you check that the piece you are given has hash Z
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00:19 < Taek> that would increase the computational load for both parties
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--- Log closed Sat Jul 18 00:00:14 2015