--- Log opened Sun Aug 02 00:00:28 2015
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01:34 < waxwing> gmaxwell: isn't that comment by the guy who wants bitcoin to die in a fire ? :)
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01:39 < gmaxwell> Stross? who knows-- but they basically also reflect my experience (I hadn't considered any parallels there much before seeing the comment).
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01:40 < waxwing> yes i liked usenet even with the crazies and yes it died because it made no allowances for "normals" .. so far all decentralized things have been like that but hope springs eternal :)
01:42 < jcorgan> gmaxwell: http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2013/12/why-i-want-bitcoin-to-die-in-a.html
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02:03 < CodeShark> dunno if it's just me but I find it ironic that we've finally come upon something that is not only rooted in cryptography, but also shows promise in allowing us to create direct economic incentives that can enforce policies on such networks...and rather than trying to fundamentally solve these incentive issues, a bunch of folks are just trying to fill it up with junk
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02:04 < CodeShark> thanks for bringing this up, gmaxwell
02:04 < CodeShark> the parallel is quite stark
02:09 < CodeShark> decentralized networks rooted on the good intentions of a minority of users probably can't last very long
02:12 < CodeShark> we'll either get a big crunch or a heat death...not an equilibrium state
02:16 < gmaxwell> bitcoin does have more protectie measures in it than usenet did.
02:17 < CodeShark> initially the incentives were almost perfect...but as time goes on I fear they only get worse
02:17 < gmaxwell> At least for the time being. Maybe. So perhaps thats ... something?
02:18 < CodeShark> if you can't stop people from doing stuff by moderation and censorship, the only approach left is to make it too costly
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02:19 < CodeShark> or at least that's what it seems like
02:19 < lmatteis> gmaxwell: well my idea for Kudos was to prevent the Usenet spam using scarce tokens that can only be generated via mining
02:22 < lmatteis> but more than reputation, i was looking into a way of how to make content inside a DHT "stand out"
02:24 < CodeShark> something like page rank?
02:24 < lmatteis> for example, in the bittorrent DHT there's huge amounts of data that is only retrievable if you have the "key" (of the DHT key-value). so you still need the magnet links. the blockchain, and the scarce tokens it generates, could be used to rate certain key-value items. so now the blockchain is a tracker, which can't be brought down
02:25 < lmatteis> CodeShark: hrm not really? what do you mean
02:26 < CodeShark> a metric based on how frequently something is referenced by others
02:26 < CodeShark> and who those others are (recursively)
02:26 < lmatteis> well the DHT is not really a graph like the web
02:26 < CodeShark> right - I'm thinking more like a DAG
02:26 < lmatteis> CodeShark: so you mean you'd crawl the Web for that?
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02:27 < CodeShark> no, just thinking abstractly
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02:27 < lmatteis> ah, right. but then you still have spammers in the DAG, referencing content thousands of times to make them more relavant
02:27 < lmatteis> (and increase their page rank)
02:28 < CodeShark> right - but if there's a cost to referencing perhaps it can limit the potential for attacks
02:28 < CodeShark> or a cost to something
02:28 < CodeShark> haven't really thought it through :p
02:29 < CodeShark> if it's free to create zillions of identities that all say "this is great" it obviously won't work
02:29 < lmatteis> right, and that's why i looked into scarce tokens via blockchain
02:33 < lmatteis> obvious problem is that one can only upvote (or give a token to someone) for as many tokens i have. so if i have 5 tokens, i can only upvote 5 times :/
02:33 < lmatteis> but maybe that's a good thing. users would be incentivized to post relevant content and get more points they can use
02:33 < CodeShark> you need to build "reputation" by putting up the cost to generate something scarce...or by getting others to vouch for you
02:34 < CodeShark> it's really looking like it comes down to economics
02:34 < CodeShark> infonomics :p
02:35 < lmatteis> right
02:36 < lmatteis> but anyway, marrying a blockchain with bittorrent's DHT seems like an interesting exercise
02:36 < lmatteis> to get rid of the tracker/search-engine (PirateBay) point of failure
02:36 < CodeShark> bedeho is trying to do that with joystream
02:36 < CodeShark> and I think there are another couple projects along those lines
02:36 < lmatteis> ah cool
02:37 < lmatteis> joystream is more for paying seeding. my thinking was more for content discovery (or torrent discovery)
02:39 < CodeShark> right - that's true. but the key thing is the exploration of blockchain + DHT...the use cases will follow
02:42 < CodeShark> the ability to incorporate cryptographic settlement guarantees into the protocols themselves...powerful concept
02:46 < jcorgan> up/down votes do need to be scarce to have value.  Gallagher (comedian) promoted the idea that everyone be give five darts per month to be shot at cars of those who drive like assholes. Those who had five darts on their car would be forbidden to drive until the next month.  Funny, but only because it reflects the idea of scarcity in opinionating on others.
02:47 < CodeShark> heh
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02:56 < CodeShark> so you could either stick the keys directly into a censorship-resistant database with an intrinsic scarce token (i.e. a blockchain)...or you might just directly request such keys from a bunch of peers and pay the peers that give you good ones...or...hmmm....
03:01 < CodeShark> since it costs something to request stuff (even if it's a tiny amount per request) this will naturally limit spam
03:02 < CodeShark> you could also have a peer discovery mechanism based on this
03:02 < lmatteis> also there's a problem that up/down voting is different from transacting currency: usually in social voting you shoul only want to upvote content once. with money transfer, you're not limited to this
03:03 < lmatteis> i was thinking of combating this with what i call "universal constant amounts". so the network only accepts transactions of a fixed value. so you can only send 1 token to a peer, and also a constant fee (of also say 1 token)
03:05 < lmatteis> this would also make impractical the use of these tokens for economical use - i don't want points to be exchanged for money
03:06 < CodeShark> so you want them to be nontransferrable?
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03:06 < CodeShark> other than via specific transaction types that are highly restricted?
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03:06 < lmatteis> no i do, but in limited amounts (or constant amounts)
03:07 < lmatteis> i need to make voting somewhat expensive (as in with a constant fee) or else someone can just create n addresses and make their own content relevant by just transferring large amounts of tokens (simulating upvotes) to each of their addresses
03:07 < CodeShark> but don't you end up with a sybil problem again?
03:07 < lmatteis> with constant fees, they'll eventually run out of points by doing this
03:08 < CodeShark> transferring large amounts of tokens between addresses you own will cost you something, though
03:08 < CodeShark> presumably there are other participants in the network that might also take fees for things like message routing and what not
03:09 < CodeShark> in the case of bitcoin, fees go nondeterministically to some miner
03:09 < CodeShark> in the case of ripple, some tokens are destroyed
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03:10 < lmatteis> yeah. so fees would go back into circulation
03:11 < lmatteis> just like bitcoin. but i don't want users to send like 50 tokens to a post. and that's why i have constant fees. so to send 50 tokens he'd need to break it into 50 transactions (each sending 1 token, if 1 is the constant amount)
03:11 < CodeShark> hmm, so it forces a more proportional fee to the value rather than the size of the transaction
03:12 < CodeShark> yeah, that's an interesting point
03:13 < lmatteis> also, it would incentivize people to not reuse addresses (if you want a single address with lots of points, and therefore build a reputation)
03:14 < CodeShark> yeah, to incentivize that you need to make one address with reputation 2 worth more than two addresses with reputation 1
03:14 < CodeShark> or something like that
03:15 < CodeShark> but there could be some centralization tendencies in this
03:15 < CodeShark> a small number of addresses accruing disproportionately large amount of influence
03:16 < CodeShark> so there needs to be some balance
03:17 < lmatteis> yeah, and in fact i need to stress that it's just a number
03:17 < lmatteis> it's not really reputation, it's just a number you have that allows you to give numbers to other people and make content relevant in the DHT
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03:17 < lmatteis> but i guess it could tend to be used as reputation. also because the proof of things you said is inside the blockchain, so that could have interesting outcomes
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03:18 < lmatteis> but anyway, there's also disproportional amounts happening in systems like Reddit or Stackoverflow
03:19 < lmatteis> most first stackoverflow users have unproportional large reputation points
03:19 < lmatteis> because back then it was just easier to get points
03:20 < CodeShark> right - the amount of points available for distribution should be related to the number of users on the system...or something
03:21 < CodeShark> hmmm
03:21 < CodeShark> there's probably someone somewhere that's researched this far more than I have :p
03:23 < CodeShark> but you might be right - these tokens might have significantly different properties than a typical currency
03:24 < CodeShark> for starters, they don't seem very fungible
03:25 < CodeShark> one good source is worth far more than a thousand extremely crappy ones
03:26 < CodeShark> the value is not additive
03:27 < CodeShark> in fact, extremely crappy sources might even have negative value
03:27 < CodeShark> they only clutter up your searche
03:27 < CodeShark> *searches
03:29 < CodeShark> reddit has more than its share of this problem :p
03:32 < CodeShark> also, two good sources together might be worth more than the sum of their parts
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03:33 < lmatteis> there's also the thing where there's no incentive for mining other than gaining points, which i guess enough people would still do
03:33 < lmatteis> but there's also less incentive to gain more power to fork the chain... it's not money afterall
03:34 < lmatteis> it's just quite different. you also don't care about how fast the tokens will arrive
03:34 < lmatteis> and there's really no double-spending problem, since you're not sending tokens and awaiting for delivery of a physical good
03:34 < lmatteis> but the system still needs to reach a consensus somewhat
03:35 < CodeShark> right - there still is a double-spending problem
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03:36 < CodeShark> it's not like someone gets cheated...but more like the system needs to agree where the tokens went
03:42 < CodeShark> I think we might be trying to reinvent economics :p
03:44 < CodeShark> it's clear that currencies don't always accurately reflect value...and it seems that markets can only price commodities to any accurate degree...all other pricing really comes down to pulling numbers out of a hat :p
03:45 < lmatteis> i guess, i'm really bad with economics :)
03:45 < lmatteis> i just want points to rank shit :D
03:47 < CodeShark> isn't that how google started?
03:47 < CodeShark> are we talking about decentralized search engines?
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03:50 < CodeShark> anyhow, this is too hard to figure out in one night...gotta go rest
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03:53 < lmatteis> :) gnight
04:04 < fluffypony> jcorgan: that article gave me brain damage just reading it
04:05 < jcorgan> the one by stross?  yeah, was a bit disappointed by someone i otherwise respected
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06:31 < dgenr8> matteis: you put a date in your paper.  that's not smart because then people can figure out when you wrote it.
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11:42 < lmatteis> dgenr8: and why's that a bad thing?
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12:10 < dgenr8> lmatteis: so you have confidence that your ideas matter, even if they don't pass filters for being either a) new or b) time-tested.  interesting!  i looked it over.  my question is who will mine it?
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12:17 < lmatteis> dgenr8: well it's still a draft so i think having a date is important. once (and if) i get it published, it won't have a date on it anymore
12:17 < lmatteis> dgenr8: whoever wants to earn points will mine it
12:22 < lmatteis> dgenr8: but since it isn't money, the amount of money isn't as important as crypto currencies
12:22 < lmatteis> *the amount of mining
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12:25 < dgenr8> lmatteis: who gets the pointbase points?  how many are there / will there be?
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12:26 < dgenr8> lmatteis: fwiw, i think not dating papers is ridiculous.
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12:27 < lmatteis> dgenr8: that's an implementation detail. i guess you can make it similar to bitcoin (50 tokens released for each block)
12:28 < lmatteis> the halving may not be necessary
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12:28 < lmatteis> dgenr8: ah lol :)
12:29 < dgenr8> everybody will want to make blocks.  how is it decided?  also implementation detail?
12:30 < lmatteis> same as bitcoin with proof of work
12:30 < lmatteis> i was studying how perhaps a proof-of-stake may be used for this, but it doesn't seem to be useful for reaching consensus
12:34 < dgenr8> what's interesting to me, is that something similar can be used to scale bitcoin itself.  store and index the tx details in something like a DHT.  This idea totally distinct from saying "blindly replace the network and the blockchain with a DHT".
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12:36 < dgenr8> there is a discussion here where phantomcircuit gave me a good grilling on it (search 'beefnode')
12:38 < lmatteis> you mean to save space?
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12:46 < justanotheruser> dgenr8: blockchain sharding seems like it would make more sense than storing it in a DHT
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13:16 < benjamindees>  A Decaying Block Size Limit Growth Rate
13:16 < benjamindees> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1140876.0
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13:35 < gmaxwell> on the usenet subject, a good reminder of the education that was previously required there: http://www.exit109.com/~jeremy/news/misplacedbin.html
13:41 < bramc> gmaxwell, The 'voting' system for usenet newsgroups was profoundly ineffective and stupid
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13:43 < jcorgan> the tribal knowledge gained during the building of a thing doesn't always transfer well to those for whom that thing has always been around.  seems about 25-30 years is all that is needed.
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14:03 < kanzure> "scale" is ambiguous, too many competing definitions
14:03 < kanzure> the word should be tabooed
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14:10 < jcorgan> taboos don't scale
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16:04 < frankenmint> is there a good, general programming chat room?
16:05 < frankenmint> I'm trying to build up to the like of you folk here
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16:14 < jcorgan> read other people's code, a *lot*
16:18 < gmaxwell> frankenmint: almost nothing discussed in chat rooms helps you become a better programmer; chat room banter is mostly (thought not entirely) limited to the least interesting subjects (due to social reasons). jcorgan gave you the real answer.
16:19 < frankenmint> android deployment is FAST you guys - apple took 8 days, this took literally 1 hour
16:19 < frankenmint> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.honeybadgerofmoney.sts.bitcointrivia
16:20 < frankenmint> I wont bring it up anymore...just excited to have it made and out there
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16:49 < kanzure> gmaxwell: on the contrary, everything i know about subtle c programming i learned by being yelled at over irc
16:57 < frankenmint> gmaxwell: Luke-Jr says btc needs more unit testing? is this the same thing as test cases (embarrassed to ask but necessary to now)
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19:03 < kanzure> frankenmint: unit tests are test cases that isolate very specific chunks of code, without requiring outside libraries or network connectivity etc
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20:55 < Taek> frankenmint: the best lessons I learned about programming generally came from people doing stubborn code reviews
20:56 < Taek> but also lots of value from reading "premium" code
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21:37 < morphiscreator> So I've heard that the NSA pays GMaxWell to act so homosexual and moronic, in order to disrupt the dev community.
21:38 < morphiscreator> we should ban him before it hurts bitcoin even more
21:39 < morphiscreator> it might be hard with fanboys like apocalyptic with their tongue up his ass
21:39 < phantomcircuit> !ops
21:40 < morphiscreator> peace. http://morph.is
21:40 < Apocalyptic> lolwat
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21:45 < tripleslash> ping: Luke-Jr
21:45 < Luke-Jr> ?
21:46 < tripleslash> phantomcircuit needed you
21:46 < tripleslash> I was late to the party
21:46 < tripleslash> sorry.
21:49 < gmaxwell> FWIW, morphiscreator's IP previously used by thufir.
21:50 < opernator> Curious - Is that kind of garbage common around here? Figured I would join the IRC scene to get away from that. ;)
21:51 < tripleslash> Every medium will have trolls.
21:51 < Apocalyptic> gmaxwell, this is consistent with the content of the website he linked
21:51 < opernator> true that...
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21:59 < gmaxwell> opernator: not usually; hasn't been a great time for bitcoin-related communities lately.
22:00 < gmaxwell> That particular person had been punted out of here previously.
22:04 < opernator> keep up the good work; trolls gon' troll
22:04 < midnightmagic> and morons gonna more
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22:21 < CodeShark> clever trolls are at least sometimes amusing...but even among trolls they are a tiny minority
22:22 < CodeShark> worst of all are those who deeply suffer from Dunning-Kruger syndrome and have a political agenda
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