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04:59 < fluffypony> https://i.imgur.com/gZWkpu4.png
04:59 < fluffypony> VanillaCoin (some altcoin) keeps the mempool in sync across peers
04:59 < fluffypony> because that's completely feasible and devoid of problems
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05:05 < jcorgan> there are many lols in the bct ann for that
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05:34 < lmatteis> do you guys think bitcoin would've been possible say 20 years ago? my guess is no because computing power was more centralized than it is nowadays. if that's the case, decentralized consensus could be more of an economical-social-cultural outcome, where specific things, such as  cheap computing, are available to anyone
05:36 < thesnark> lmatteis, cheap computing definitely has and is changing humanity forever. Bitcoin would have been very possible 20 years ago, but not as attractive because fewer people were connected to the net
05:38 < CodeShark> bandwidth and storage requirements would have severely restricted bitcoin's size 20 years ago (even setting aside other things like crypto developments and patent expirations...and importantly, crypto export issues)
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05:40 < lmatteis> right but my point is more on the idea that decentralized consensus could be a temporary solution that works only when socio-economical factors are in place to allow it
05:41 < thesnark> lmatteis, ah that is probably true
05:42 < CodeShark> ideally, the economic factors would be taken into account in the protocols of the network
05:42 < CodeShark> to reinforce decentralization
05:43 < CodeShark> for instance, I think division of labor is critical
05:43 < lmatteis> right, but underneath it all the main factor is computing power. if that's not available in a free market, decentralization could be at risk
05:43 < thesnark> lmatteis, yes definitely!
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05:44 < thesnark> lmatteis, actually open source IC production is a really important concept that maybe deserves more attention and work
05:44 < CodeShark> yes, that's a good point. thing is IC production has huge barriers to entry
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05:45 < lmatteis> IC?
05:45 < thesnark> integrated circuit
05:45 < CodeShark> at least, not everyone can set up clean rooms and wafer doping equipment and all that
05:46 < CodeShark> or whatever the industry lingo for it is - I'm a software guy :p
05:46 < thesnark> CodeShark, It's not as inaccessible as you'd think
05:46 < CodeShark> well, you can always outsource production of an IC design
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05:46 < CodeShark> but you still need to do relatively large volume for it to be economical, no?
05:47 < thesnark> No, you can produce a couple of individual ICs for not too much money
05:47 < thesnark> not too much money is about $30k
05:47 < thesnark> at the moment
05:47 < thesnark> and if you only make a single chip and you know what you're doing, maybe as low as 5-7k
05:48 < lmatteis> also, hashing power is scalable. meaning that 1000 "home made" ICs could win over any single regime that wants to overpower the network
05:50 < thesnark> lmatteis, that attack will always be possible. for example the Feds could have wrecked bitcoin early by manufacturing a bunch of ICs with that delicious fed money
05:50 < thesnark> $100M is nothing to some orgs
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05:51 < CodeShark> once we have programmable nanoassemblers we can open source all hardware production :p
05:52 < CodeShark> reduce factories to essentially printers :p
05:52 < thesnark> but if you hear what lmatteis is saying, the control over the research and production of nanotech is essential for that future to exist - and currently it wouldn't be too hard to squash it
05:52 < thesnark> if you just focus on the right tech, I mean
05:52 < lmatteis> do you guys mind the fact that hashing uses lots of energy? i know "wasting energy" is sort of an intrinsic property of decentralized consensus though
05:53 < CodeShark> I'd have to look over the statistics to have a strong opinion
05:53 < thesnark> lmatteis, any reasonable person should be concerned with the energy involved. lots of people will tell you that more efficient mining will solve that problem but I don't know
05:53 < CodeShark> but isn't energy cost the ultimate intrinsic cost?
05:53 < thesnark> lmatteis, ultimately it might not be a problem for bitcoin - in other words, alt energy development is also essential
05:54 < lmatteis> but that's sort of what makes it work in the first place. it must cost something or else anybody could simulate it
05:54 < CodeShark> assuming IC production was widely accessible, etc...the bottleneck would be energy availability
05:55 < thesnark> CodeShark or raw capital/buying power becomes the bottleneck
05:55 < thesnark> I don't think we're even remotely close to approaching infinite energy though
05:55 < thesnark> I don't see it being a problem even with good alt energy
05:55 < CodeShark> assuming efficient flow of the means of production, mining tends towards breaking even...the only way to profitably mine, it seems, is to have early access to a better technolofy
05:56 < CodeShark> *technology
05:56 < thesnark> yes definitely CodeShark
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05:57 < CodeShark> molecular nanobots and nuclear fusion :p
05:57 < lmatteis> or just mining rigs hanging near the sun :)
05:57 < fluffypony> lmatteis: I think cryptography / security is inherently an arms race
05:58 < fluffypony> I remember a few years back I setup infrastructure for a startup, and their acid test was 1000 simultaneous users
05:58 < fluffypony> but the trap was SSL, handshaking SSL connections is expensive
05:59 < fluffypony> you can get around this by allowing RC4, but since I knew RC4 was just about broken I advised them to drop RC4 support
05:59 < fluffypony> which meant spending more money on the processing capability of the webapp servers, and they had to support AES-NI
05:59 < fluffypony> but in hindsight that was better, since now SSLv3 is dead, as is RC4, and yet they're still on the same infrastructure (just scaled up)
05:59 < thesnark> +1 fluffypony
06:00 < fluffypony> so protecting the users ended up having a very real cost, and Bitcoin's mining network has a very real cost, but it's a tradeoff we're willing to make for security's sake
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06:02 < lmatteis> do you think "work" and wasting energy is an inherent property to reach consensus in a trustless/decentralized way?
06:02 < lmatteis> or is that sort of an assumption we make because that's the best we could find today?
06:03 < fluffypony> it's not as simple as saying that "wasting energy" is inherent
06:03 < thesnark> lmatteis, there will always be unknown possibilities, but IMO yes. I'm not sure it's "wasting" energy
06:03 < fluffypony> every piece of "work" done by honest members of the network represents a piece of work that an attacker has to counter
06:04 < lmatteis> fluffypony: indeed
06:04 < fluffypony> the problem with all these other systems (proof of storage, proof of waffles, proof of whatever) is that they are often hard to measure, easy to game
06:04 < fluffypony> crunching numbers is the simplest thing we can find that is easy to measure and hard to game
06:05 < lmatteis> which goes hand-in-hand with energy consumption
06:05 < fluffypony> yes
06:05 < fluffypony> which is why I'm quite intrigued by some of the guys playing around with other things, like making the work "hard disk activity" instead of crunching numbers
06:06 < fluffypony> although I think anything replacing PoW is a ways away
06:06 < lmatteis> ah like proof of space?
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06:06 < fluffypony> yup
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06:07 < lmatteis> it is unclear how to stop one from re-purposing their storage space for proving, and therefore simulating, that a very large amount of data was stored
06:07 < fluffypony> yeah and therein lies the problem - viability needs to be proven, which requires research, thinking, and time
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06:10 < CodeShark> doesn't seem anyone's found a way to do proof-of-anything-other-than-work that does not require things like checkpoints
06:10 < fluffypony> CodeShark: yup
06:11 < fluffypony> although we should definitely add a "yet" to that, as it's entirely possible someone cracks that problem
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06:19 < CodeShark> there's probably some theoretical physical constraint to how much granularity to well-ordering consensus the universe allows...some sort of uncertainty principle
06:19 < lmatteis> after all the proof that is needed for consensus is that it is harder to achieve by a single entity then the network combined. energy consumption does have that property, but perhaps there're dozen of other ways. obviously i'm just speculating... could be that energy is sort of a universal constant :)
06:20 < CodeShark> it would be interesting to try to construct an argument that is independent of technology
06:21 < CodeShark> just based on things like signal propagation speed and entropy
06:22 < CodeShark> in principle, reversible computation doesn't produce entropy
06:22 < CodeShark> but in practice it seems impossible to achieve that
06:23 < CodeShark> the catch is that we have to measure the state repeatedly..."cool it" into specific energy states
06:24 < CodeShark> so there's necessarily some heat exchange, it seems like
06:25 < lmatteis> but see, it doesn't necessarily have to be hard to compute. it could have totally other different properties we cannot phantom about
06:25 < lmatteis> but again, just speculating cuz i have no idea what it could look like :)
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06:27 < lmatteis> but i'm sure that if it exists, it would look obvious in hindsight, quite non-obvious in foresight
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08:20 < frankenmint> I'd like to use this: https://code.google.com/p/googletest/
08:21 < frankenmint> for this: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin#testing
08:21 < fluffypony> gtest is a nice testing framework, we use it for the Monero tests
08:22 < frankenmint> how would I do this properly?  Do I make a fork of BTC and apply my changes then submit pull requests with my proper tests included onto the other pull requests to determine pass/failing statuses?
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08:23 < fluffypony> yes
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13:50 < bramc> An interesting thing about transactions fees: If you're optimizing for cheapness of transactions, that implies a very specific and possibly not very privacy friendly spending policy
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13:53 < bramc> Of course, it isn't clear that any coin combining policy is particularly better or worse than any other from a privacy standpoint. They all seem to suck.
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14:10 < fluffypony> hrm, I think whoever is administering the mailing list just woke up :-P
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14:17 < gmaxwell> bramc: I'm not sure if you mean low fees over all, vs lowest fee for _this_ transaction? They result in pretty different behavior.
14:17 < kanzure> the optimal privacy situation is the one where nobody spends
14:17 < kanzure> so high fees should tend to do that :-)
14:18 < helo> any situation where everyone spends equally?
14:18 < kanzure> not everyone has a reason to make transactions
14:24 < nsh> bramc, do you have up-to-date notes somewhere?
14:45 < bramc> gmaxwell, Lower fees over time for the one wallet. The best algorithm is to spend the smallest utxo larger than the desired output. If no single local utxo is big enough, use the two largest, and if that isn't big enough add the third, etc.
14:46 < bramc> nsh, working on it. My current post is very high level, although a surprising amount of basic stuff hasn't hit the general discourse.
14:46  * nsh nods
14:48 < kanzure> "current post" is posted?
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14:52 < leakypat> bramc: although the fee market dynamic changes this a bit, if fees are low, a good time to consolidate dust
14:53 < bramc> kanzure, Not posted yet, working on it.
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14:56 < bramc> leakypat, The problem is that consolidation takes the same amount in fees regardless of whether it's done sooner or later, because adding an input is the same increase in transaction size. The idea is that you want to reduce dust *creation* as much as possible
14:57 < bramc> Come to think of it, maybe overshooting by as little as possible is a better bet
14:59 < bramc> Here's a thought: To find how well consolidated a wallet is, take the square root of the sum of the squares of all the utxo sizes. Divide that into the sum of the utxo sizes. The closer that is to 1 the better.
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15:01 < gmaxwell> Bitcoin Core's behavior tries to minimize change, but this is not ideal because it results in change which is small enough to be not very useful. (e.g. will never be an exact value that you needed).
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15:04 < bramc> gmaxwell, The technique I said is trying to minimize the number of utxos, on the assumption that every generated utxo is going to be another fee you pay for consolidation
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15:29 < bramc> Okay, running numbers on an objective measure you mostly want to overshoot by as little as possible. The main difference with current algorithms is that it's trying to minimize the number of utxos which go in
15:30 < bramc> Although maybe even that isn't a good idea. Maybe simply measuring square root of sum of squares is the best approach.
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15:34 < bramc> hmm, it's called root mean square
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15:46 < bramc> The question is, do you assume all dust must be consolidated eventually, so you might as well proactively consolidate it now?
15:50 < bramc> Or is there reasonable hope that some dust will get so small that you can just forget about it?
15:50 < bramc> The *really* simple algorithm is that you take every one of your utxos and put it into every transaction
15:51 < bramc> Then you only have one utxo after every spend
15:52 < gmaxwell> I think that does not minimize fees.  Imagine you did that except in one case you had a utxo that was the exact amount you needed to spend, so you spent it without creating change in that transaction. I believe thats strictly smaller.
15:53 < bramc> Right, but how likely is that?
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15:54 < kanzure> i wonder what the cost would have to be per transaction to make it worthwhile to just pay more for a trinket
15:55 < gmaxwell> bramc: you can choose your change sizes to make it more likely.
15:56 < gmaxwell> I wasn't trying to say it was the common case (though it certantly happens) ... just pointing out that the example you gave couldn't be a completely optimal behavior.
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17:28 < bramc> Arguably, if fees are on an upward trend it's better to always consolidate sooner because fees will be higher later
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17:34 < bramc> But if you can manage to ever overshoot by less than a transaction fee you've basically got it. Of course, that's a problem too: With variable transaction fees, you have to overcommit early
17:35 < bramc> Maybe I should just conclude that coin combining doesn't matter all that much because it amortizes out the same in the end anyway
17:36 < gmaxwell> I think the only thing that matters there is that if you undercombine and get very small change thats a loss.
17:37 < bramc> Why? If your output is smaller than the amount it costs to add another input to a transaction then throwing it out is cheaper than doing the consolidation.
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17:40 < gmaxwell> e.g. you spend 5.0001 to get 5 out, ending up with 0.0001 change. That might be worth keeping, but not hugely so. You could also add a 1.0 additional input and end up with 1.0001 change, which is much more useful.
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17:42 < bramc> The cost of a transaction is mostly proportional to the number of inputs it has, so for every utxo you have in your wallet that will eventually cost some coin to get consolidated. If you can make it smaller than the consolidation cost, then throwing it out is a win
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17:43 < bramc> Adding that 1 sounds like a loss. You could have waited to add the 1 until later, which would cost the same amount.
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17:50 < gmaxwell> but later you can now ad the 1.0001  which cost the same as adding the 1 itself or the 0.0001
17:51 < bramc> It's still adding two inputs over time, and it loses versatility: Maybe you need to spend exactly 1.0 or .0001
17:52 < gmaxwell> indeed but the the merging might make the exact spend more likely. Which is I guess the question thats interesting to ask.
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18:27 < bramc> If you merge later you have three possible exact spends. If you merge now you have one
18:27 < bramc> A, B, and A+B, versus just A+B
18:28 < bramc> Of course if you have more then your chances of having an exact or near exact go up as well
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18:28 < bramc> Which seems to be an argument in favor of keeping different sizes of coin around
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21:03 < amiller> bramc, i think the fee should be based on the costs, and eventually that will be dominated by utxobytes*time
21:03 < amiller> assuming that full nodes are still keeping track of even all the utxos
21:05 < bramc> amiller, I'm just working with what we've got today
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22:06 < CodeShark> utxo space should be rented out, not sold :)
22:06 < gmaxwell> CodeShark: hard to avoid bad incentives.
22:06 < gmaxwell> "lol, think I'll ignore this transaction right here so it's UTXO expires next block."
22:07 < CodeShark> yeah, indirect incentives via the miners are problematic
22:08 < CodeShark> economically what would most make sense would be to distribute this fee across all nodes that maintain a copy of the utxo...but I'm not sure how to accomplish that ;)
22:09 < CodeShark> and still have a separate fee incentive for the miner
22:09 < gmaxwell> I think the best suggestion I've seen along those lines is petertodd's proposal that the UTXO set not be stored (or only a small, fixed size, 'most recent') be stored and the rest is accomidated by an increasengly large hashtree membership proof.  The down side is that bandwidth seems like it will always be much more scarce than storage; so almost any traodeoff of less storage for more BW is a lo
22:09 < gmaxwell> ss.
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22:10 < CodeShark> are you talking about the merkle mountain range proposal?
22:11 < CodeShark> in principle, I fully agree with the idea that the person spending an output should be responsible for supplying the proof that the output exists and hasn't been spent
22:11 < gmaxwell> MMR is just another name for a particular kind of insertion ordered hashtree strategy.  I'm speaking more specifically of a sub-class of "commited TXO" proposal (where there is a small txo set everyone is assumed to have, and the rest is accessed via commitments)
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22:12 < CodeShark> but I don't think such an approach is really practical for a flood network
22:13 < gmaxwell> though I did observe the proof sizes of TXO commitments are much better if you also assume nodes will cache the top levels of the tree; though that hardly takes any storage.
22:13 < gmaxwell> it's easy to halve the proof sizes while hardly requiring any more storage.
22:14 < gmaxwell> but the access costs have to be considered too... turns out that updating is expensive.
22:14 < CodeShark> or perhaps have a way for nodes to query for the proof if they don't already have it
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22:14 < gmaxwell> CodeShark: well sure, you could p2p negoiate and say "I've got all the data, don't send me proofs"  so on a link by link basis you could make the bandwidth vs storage tradeoff.
22:15 < CodeShark> right
22:15 < gmaxwell> But if its virtually never a win to send the proof; then the scheme (With its cpu cost) isn't a win.
22:15 < c0rw1n> CodeShark that sounds to me a liiiiiiiittle like having the spender ... mine? the proof that the TXO is U ? ( feel free to ignore if this is too stupid )
22:16 < CodeShark> the spender doesn't have to mine...but the commit structure needs to be updated before a miner mines it
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22:19 < c0rw1n> ( still over my head and this is not btc-lrn2wizard so thanks but i'll stop asking ( unless and until i go and relearn everything technical i knew of bitcoin that i forgot in over two years ) )
22:22 < CodeShark> c0rw1n: essentially, either the validator (which updates the commit structure) must have enough of the global commit structure to validate the transaction...or the sender must supply exact instructions on how to update the structure
22:24 < CodeShark> and it needs to be possible to validate each instruction with minimal knowledge of the global commit structure (i.e. a hash)
22:26 < c0rw1n> that ... does ring a few more, distant, bells but still doesn't entirely parse :(
22:26 < c0rw1n> i forgot so much
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22:35 < CodeShark> imagine git but where there are also strict rules on how you can modify files
22:38 < c0rw|zZz> ok, hazy representation engaged (hoping to avoid illusion of transparence) ...
22:39 < CodeShark> you can either send the modified files or deltas
22:39 < CodeShark> but if you supply a delta it needs to be possible to check that it's a valid transition
22:40 < c0rw|zZz> ok, got that yes... yes
22:40 < c0rw|zZz> ah so
22:40 < c0rw|zZz> the transmission could include the delta and a hash (of the unmodified file, or of the result)
22:40 < CodeShark> right
22:41 < CodeShark> and you might need to break up a delta into several deltas so you can validate it
22:42 < CodeShark> imagine primitive deltas...the smallest possible deltas that can be validated with knowledge only of the commit hash
22:43 < CodeShark> these structures must be fully self-contained...meaning they encode the complete set of instructions for updating the commit hash
22:43 < CodeShark> and it must be possible to make sure each delta satisfies the transition rules
22:46 < CodeShark> cost tradeoffs can be better reasoned about economically if we have incentive mechanisms
22:46 < c0rw|zZz> so what's transmitted is a series of tiny deltas, each with a hash that proves it's actually a sensical (following the transition rules) update to the previous version of the file
22:46 < CodeShark> right
22:48 < CodeShark> there are some intrinsic incentives here - for instance, it is always in the interest of a sender to make sure it is possible to construct a proof if needed. but transmitting the proof across the network incurs costs on other nodes
22:48 < CodeShark> as does storing it
22:48 < c0rw|zZz> ( i remember reading the term "relay fee" some day. related?  )
22:48 < c0rw|zZz> hm
22:49 < CodeShark> there's a dust prevention fee that's hardcoded into bitcoin core - but it's not a particularly good example of proper incentives ;)
22:50 < CodeShark> proper (or direct) incentives would be the ability for the prover to pay the relayer
22:50 < c0rw|zZz> i'd thought of having each relay sign each transmission they relay, which would build them each a rep for being Good Transmitters ... don't remember where i was going with that at the time
22:51 < CodeShark> it's too easy to game that by just sending a bunch of transactions to yourself
22:52 < c0rw|zZz> yeah at which point it'd need blockchain analysis in parallel with relay structure analysis and that would be gameable too and then arms race so yeah no
22:53 < c0rw|zZz> ( ... if it'd even be at all profitable to arms race for a few satoshis and/or hardly-monetizable rep cred ... )
22:54 < CodeShark> I believe ultimately this is the fundamental problem of decentralized networks...and if we could solve it it's sort of like the holy grail
22:55 < CodeShark> how to create mechanisms for direct incentives that promote network health
22:55 < CodeShark> and since these networks are likely to be highly heterogenous, we also need to consider division of labor
22:58 < CodeShark> it makes sense for different types of devices to specialize in different tasks
22:58 < c0rw|zZz> i'm uncomfortable with that :-/  best p2p network has flat structure with every node being equal ... but then bitcoin has miners, full nodes and spv nodes
22:59 < CodeShark> mobile devices with intermittent or restricted network access don't make particularly good validators, miners, or relayers
22:59 < CodeShark> big servers don't make particularly good point-of-sale authorization devices
22:59 < c0rw|zZz> yeah, exactly : flat p2p nets are not practical
23:02 < c0rw|zZz> mathematical and physical limits say that something like bitcoin can't very well live on nodes all light enough to live in intermittently-connected, compute-limited smartphones
23:04 < c0rw|zZz> it's 8AM here and i forgot to go sleep again. good night magic cypherpunks :-)
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23:05 < CodeShark> nite
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--- Log closed Tue Aug 04 00:00:30 2015