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ZZZzzz…] 09:08 -!- tripleslash [~triplesla@unaffiliated/imsaguy] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:11 -!- bedeho [~bedeho@50-202-37-133-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:13 -!- nwilcox [~nwilcox@c-73-202-109-21.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 09:15 -!- davi [~davi@gnu/davi] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:17 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 09:20 -!- CoinMuncher [~jannes@178.132.211.90] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:21 -!- King_Rex [~King_Rex@14.sub-70-193-69.myvzw.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:22 -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-185-201-214-201.cm.vtr.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:22 -!- maraoz [~maraoz@181.29.98.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:29 -!- Starduster [~guest@unaffiliated/starduster] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:30 < drue> so this is probably stupid, and this may not be the right channel. if either are the case let me know.. 09:31 < drue> so regarding block size and cost of running a full node over time - i don't understand why work couldn't be done to allow nodes to have a truncated history 09:31 < fluffypony> drue: pruning is already in there 09:31 < fluffypony> the major cost impact isn't disk space 09:31 < drue> i get that you'd lose transaction history, but couldn't it be summarized in the earliest block or in some manner? 09:31 < fluffypony> it's upstream bandwidth 09:32 < fluffypony> disk space is cheap in every country, but upstream bandwidth is hellishly expensive, even in countries like Germany 09:32 -!- nabu [~nabu@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/nabu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:33 < drue> ah. isn't that just a function of transaction count, rather than block size? (that is, isn't block size just a function of transaction count too?) 09:33 -!- rubensayshi [~ruben@91.206.81.13] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:33 < fluffypony> a single transaction can take up tons of space, so definitely not transaction "count" 09:34 < fluffypony> and unless the argument is being made that Bitcoin is hardly used and will have lots of empty blocks inbetween the occasional transaction it's not worth considering 09:35 < jgarzik> byte count 09:35 -!- priidu [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 09:35 * fluffypony counts his bytes 09:36 < fluffypony> on that topic, though - Ookla has just canned NetIndex in favour of some lame new site that shows you the "best" ISP in a particular country / area 09:36 < drue> ok.. thanks. just getting up to speed on the discussion and reading the dev list for the last couple weeks. 09:36 < fluffypony> which obviously only has USA right now (sigh) 09:37 -!- AlphaTech [uid35525@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xwbuygxklhogewsp] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:41 -!- ASTP001 [~ASTP001@50-78-139-78-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:50 -!- King_Rex [~King_Rex@154.sub-70-193-105.myvzw.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:52 -!- p15x [~p15x@64.145.91.63] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 09:53 -!- nessence [~alexl@178.19.221.38] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:53 -!- bendavenport [~bpd@96.90.231.161] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:54 -!- p15x [~p15x@64.145.91.63] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:54 -!- shen_noe [~shen_noe@162.216.46.75] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:54 -!- hearn_ [~mike@185.25.95.132] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:55 -!- hearn [~mike@185.25.95.132] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:56 -!- p15x [~p15x@64.145.91.63] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 09:56 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r167-56-225-172.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:56 -!- p15x [~p15x@64.145.91.63] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:59 -!- hearn_ [~mike@185.25.95.132] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:00 -!- hearn [~mike@185.25.95.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:00 -!- tripleslash [~triplesla@unaffiliated/imsaguy] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:02 -!- p15x [~p15x@64.145.91.63] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 10:03 -!- tripleslash [~triplesla@unaffiliated/imsaguy] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:11 -!- priidu [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:12 -!- ishahnaz [~null@LAubervilliers-656-1-237-17.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 10:15 -!- priidu [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has quit [Client Quit] 10:21 -!- jgarzik_ [~jgarzik@104-178-201-106.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:21 -!- jgarzik [~jgarzik@unaffiliated/jgarzik] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:24 -!- xcthulhu [~mpwd@pine.noqsi.com] has quit [Quit: xcthulhu] 10:26 -!- Logicwax [Logicwax@c-76-126-174-152.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:26 -!- maraoz [~maraoz@181.29.98.57] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:26 -!- Logicwax [Logicwax@c-76-126-174-152.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:27 -!- hearn_ [~mike@185.25.95.132] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…] 12:32 -!- hearn [~mike@84-75-197-78.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:33 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:37 -!- fkhan [weechat@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-akiamausukogrwct] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:37 -!- fkhan [weechat@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-akiamausukogrwct] has quit [Changing host] 12:37 -!- fkhan [weechat@unaffiliated/loteriety] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:37 -!- fkhan [weechat@unaffiliated/loteriety] has quit [Changing host] 12:37 -!- fkhan [weechat@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-akiamausukogrwct] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:39 -!- zooko [~user@c-71-229-205-98.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:45 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:50 -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:01 -!- nwilcox [~nwilcox@74-95-207-205-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:03 -!- ishahnaz [~null@AMontsouris-652-1-270-171.w90-44.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:03 -!- nessence [~alexl@178.19.221.38] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:03 -!- nessence [~alexl@178.19.221.38] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:04 -!- Aquentin [~Aquentin@unaffiliated/aquentin] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:07 -!- xtalmath [~xtalmath@ip-83-134-138-33.dsl.scarlet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:07 -!- Aquentin [~Aquentin@unaffiliated/aquentin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:12 -!- shen_noe [~shen_noe@162.216.46.75] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:19 -!- nomailing [~Thunderbi@ip5f5ae165.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:22 -!- xtalmath [~xtalmath@ip-83-134-138-89.dsl.scarlet.be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:29 < amiller> would it be useful to generalize the borromean signatures thing to OR-AND-OR-AND... etc. rather than just AND-OR 13:30 -!- newm0ney [~conspirac@d75-157-187-241.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:35 -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-185-201-214-201.cm.vtr.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:37 < nsh> how is the former different from the latter, amiller? 13:38 < amiller> well they cover the same "language" (any monotone boolean function) but could have pretty different efficiency 13:39 -!- nwilcox [~nwilcox@173-228-119-60.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:39 < nsh> iirc the current alpha implementation of borromean sigs allows for arbitrary monotone functions by joining rings of AND over vertices of OR. are you suggesting a different topology? 13:39 < AlphaTech> Hello 13:40 < AlphaTech> You wanted me, nah? 13:40 < AlphaTech> *nsh 13:40 < amiller> yeah, i think it generalizes to AND then OR then AND then OR in whatever order 13:40 < amiller> actually they don't even have to alternate layers 13:40 < nsh> hmm 13:41 < amiller> maybe it's obvious they might as well go in layers 13:44 -!- snthsnth [~snthsnth@c-98-207-208-241.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:45 < amiller> there's a very nice general structure for borromean signatures 13:45 < amiller> er for 13:45 < amiller> generic zero knowledge profos 13:46 < amiller> that includes 'and' composition without increasing the challenge bits because of reusing the challenge, any homorphism involving known order groups, and 'Or' composition too 13:47 < amiller> the clever thing that borromean uses is basicall 'Or' composition of homomorphism proofs without increasing challenge size 13:48 < amiller> but i think it's a good idea that generalizes to Or composition of any proof of this structure, including proofs made from nested Ands and other Ords 13:49 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:51 < nsh> any refs for this general \k strcuture? 13:51 < nsh> *zk 13:55 -!- blackwraith [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:56 < gmaxwell> amiller: the obvious way I tried to generalized it to AND OR AND was not actually signable. I only needed an AND of ORs, and this is technically general already though as you note it's not terribly efficient to represent some circuts that way. 13:57 -!- priidu [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:57 < gmaxwell> If you actually are aware of a working generalization, I'd be interested to hear it-- I didn't spend more than a few minutes trying, so I wouldn't be shocked... but do actually confirm that it's actually signable, lest you fall into the trap I fell in. :) 13:58 < gmaxwell> At the bottom of the writeup we mentioned that that generalization would be useful. 14:06 -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:08 -!- bendavenport [~bpd@96.90.231.161] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:11 -!- ASTP001 [~ASTP001@50-78-139-78-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja 17:56 -!- Topic set by wumpus [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/wumpus] [Sat Jun 27 01:24:18 2015] 17:56 [Users #bitcoin-wizards] 17:56 [@ChanServ ] [ bsm117532 ] [ gielbier ] [ Krellan ] [ NewLiberty ] [ STRML ] 17:56 [@gwillen ] [ Burrito ] [ gnusha ] [ kumavis ] [ nickler ] [ sturles ] 17:56 [ [ace] ] [ c0rw1n ] [ go1111111 ] [ kyuupichan ] [ nsh ] [ sundance ] 17:56 [ [d__d] ] [ catcow ] [ GoonClooney ] [ lap ] [ null_radix ] [ superobserver ] 17:56 [ [Derek] ] [ catlasshrugged ] [ Graet ] [ larraboj ] [ optimator ] [ SwedFTP ] 17:56 [ _whitelogger ] [ cfields ] [ grandmaster ] [ lclc ] [ otoburb ] [ Taek ] 17:56 [ a5m0 ] [ cixx ] [ GreenIsMyPepper] [ leakypat ] [ PaulCapestany ] [ TD-Linux ] 17:56 [ AaronvanW ] [ CodeArtix ] [ gribble ] [ LeMiner ] [ petertodd ] [ Tenhi ] 17:56 [ adams__ ] [ CodeShark ] [ Guest28724 ] [ livegnik ] [ 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[ Xzibit17_ ] 17:56 [ binaryatrocity] [ Fistful_of_Coins] [ K1773R ] [ mr_burdell ] [ sparetire ] [ yang ] 17:56 [ blackwraith ] [ fkhan ] [ kanzure ] [ MRL-Relay ] [ Starduster ] [ yoleaux ] 17:56 [ bliljerk101 ] [ fluffypony ] [ kinlo ] [ N0S4A2 ] [ Starsoccer ] [ yorick ] 17:56 [ BlueMatt ] [ forrestv ] [ kinoshitajona ] [ nanotube ] [ stevedekorte ] [ yrashk ] 17:56 [ BrainOverfl0w ] [ gavinandresen ] [ kisspunch ] [ Naphex ] [ stevenroose ] 17:56 [ brand0 ] [ ggreer ] [ koshii ] [ nephyrin` ] [ stonecoldpat ] 17:56 -!- Irssi: #bitcoin-wizards: Total of 238 nicks [2 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 236 normal] 17:57 -!- Channel #bitcoin-wizards created Mon Feb 25 23:24:47 2013 17:57 -!- Irssi: Join to #bitcoin-wizards was synced in 14 secs 17:59 -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:59 -!- cryptowest [~cryptowes@2604:a880:800:10::81f:3001] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:09 -!- King_Rex [~King_Rex@117.sub-70-193-103.myvzw.com] has joined 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[~Tee@cpe-76-174-180-4.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:46 -!- AnoAnon [~AnoAnon@197.39.213.168] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:46 -!- AnoAnon [~AnoAnon@197.39.213.168] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 19:55 -!- Burrito [~Burrito@unaffiliated/burrito] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:06 < amiller> okay so in generalized zero knowledge proofs, there is always a "simulate" function. The simulator takes in a random challenge, and it produces a (commitment, response) pair. 20:06 < amiller> the simulator is essential to the proof that this is zero knowledge and reveals no *computationally useful* information about the secret 20:08 < amiller> In the existing (before the AOS/borromean optimization) generalized-OR proofs, the simulator also tells you what to do for the secrets you *dont* have 20:16 -!- King_Rex [~King_Rex@24.sub-70-193-98.myvzw.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:17 < amiller> the design constraint here for a sound OR proof is that you have to force one of the commitments to be chosen independent of its challenge 20:17 < amiller> which is done using hash functions, by having the challenge depend on the commitment 20:18 -!- King_Rex [~King_Rex@24.sub-70-193-98.myvzw.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:19 < amiller> okay so even given those constraints, it's pretty clear from the borromean signatures approach that the existing generic technique is inefficient 20:24 < amiller> the high level idea is that N-1 of the challenges don't have to depend on their commitment (instead the commitment depends on the challenge, because of using "simulate"), but the *sum* of all the challenges has to depend on *all* the commitments, therefore at least one of the challenges has to depend on its commitment 20:31 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:33 -!- prodatalab__ [~prodatala@nj-71-0-106-66.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 20:35 < amiller> the high level idea above is the same in borromean and in the existing technique 20:35 < amiller> but the existing technique does all that in the most obvious but dumb way 20:38 < amiller> you generate a random challenge for the N-1 fake statements, then compute the commitment depending on those. Compute the real commitment using the witness. The *total* of the challenges is based on the hash of all the commitments, and so the final challenge is chosen by subtracting all the earlier-chosen challenges from this total... then *all* the challenges have to be included in the proof, which is needlessly inefficient 20:40 -!- TheSeven [~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven] has quit [Disconnected by services] 20:40 -!- [7] [~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:44 -!- p15x [~p15x@64.145.91.63] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 20:46 -!- kerneloops [~Tee@cpe-76-174-180-4.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: I rage quit!] 20:56 -!- rasengan [~rasengan@pdpc/corporate-sponsor/privateinternetaccess.com/rasengan] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:00 -!- bendavenport [~bpd@c-50-131-42-132.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:10 -!- rht___ [uid86914@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-onobuupufebgyska] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:15 -!- xcthulhu [~mpwd@pine.noqsi.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:16 -!- stevedekorte [~stevedeko@c-73-15-210-83.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: stevedekorte] 21:17 -!- Guest91438 is now known as gmaxwell 21:18 -!- p15x [~p15x@64.145.91.79] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:23 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@76-255-129-88.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:38 < amiller> Okay so to optimize the generic technique, so that we only have to include one random string in the proof, we only need to "pick" one random value, and then the rest are determined by applying hash functions to commitments and prior challenges 21:50 < amiller> with that whole strategy in mind there's only one way to do it that seems to typecheck 21:54 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:59 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:13 -!- ggreer [~ggreer@unaffiliated/angryparsley] has quit [K-Lined] 22:13 -!- ggreer [~ggreer@162.243.155.78] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:17 -!- xcthulhu [~mpwd@pine.noqsi.com] has quit [Quit: xcthulhu] 22:18 -!- priidu [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:23 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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