--- Log opened Mon Aug 17 00:00:43 2015
00:01 -!- p15x [~p15x@64.145.91.99] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
00:01 -!- p15 [~p15@93.186.169.201] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
00:02 -!- p15_ [~p15@93.186.169.204] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
00:02 -!- p15x_ [~p15x@64.145.91.120] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
00:04 -!- Guest54999 [~Matthew@cpc43-stok16-2-0-cust109.1-4.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
00:05 -!- Icematikx [~Icematikx@cpc43-stok16-2-0-cust109.1-4.cable.virginm.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
00:05 < CodeShark> I didn't read gmaxwell's suggestion - is it published somewhere or in the logs?
00:08 < CodeShark> or could you summarize it in a few sentences? :)
00:08 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
00:11 -!- JackH [~Jack@host-80-43-143-7.as13285.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
00:17 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
00:30 -!- bedeho [~bedeho@50-202-37-133-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
00:31 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
00:35 -!- bedeho [~bedeho@50-202-37-133-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
00:39 -!- KFl6WxEUI1Zbp2 [~konichiwa@c-73-189-234-152.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ZZZzzz…]
00:49 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@76-255-129-88.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
00:56 -!- KFl6WxEUI1Zbp2 [~konichiwa@c-73-189-234-152.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
01:04 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
01:06 -!- CoinMuncher [~jannes@178.132.211.90] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
01:07 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
01:08 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@120.88.228.99] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
01:09 -!- KFl6WxEUI1Zbp2 [~konichiwa@c-73-189-234-152.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
01:16 -!- ozanyurt [~textual@151.250.136.191] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
01:29 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@120.88.228.99] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
01:38 -!- ishahnaz [~null@AMontsouris-652-1-138-182.w92-151.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
01:46 -!- snthsnth [~snthsnth@c-98-207-208-241.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
01:46 -!- nsh [~lol@wikipedia/nsh] has quit [Excess Flood]
01:47 -!- nsh [~lol@wikipedia/nsh] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
01:47 -!- nsh [~lol@wikipedia/nsh] has quit [Excess Flood]
01:47 -!- ishahnaz [~null@AMontsouris-652-1-138-182.w92-151.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Changing host]
01:47 -!- ishahnaz [~null@unaffiliated/ishahnaz] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
01:47 -!- nsh [~lol@wikipedia/nsh] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
01:47 -!- nsh [~lol@wikipedia/nsh] has quit [Excess Flood]
01:48 -!- nsh [~lol@wikipedia/nsh] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
01:48 -!- nsh [~lol@wikipedia/nsh] has left #bitcoin-wizards []
01:54 -!- nsh [~lol@wikipedia/nsh] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
01:55 -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@x4d08d42a.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Changing host]
01:55 -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@unaffiliated/dr-g] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
01:58 -!- JackH [~Jack@host86-190-246-120.range86-190.btcentralplus.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
01:58 -!- p15_ [~p15@93.186.169.206] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
02:00 -!- p15 [~p15@93.186.169.201] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
02:06 -!- sparetire_ [~sparetire@unaffiliated/sparetire] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
02:10 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
02:32 -!- bedeho [~bedeho@50-202-37-133-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
02:37 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
02:59 -!- p15 [~p15@93.186.169.205] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
03:00 -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
03:00 -!- p15_ [~p15@93.186.169.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
03:01 -!- p15x_ [~p15x@64.145.91.33] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
03:01 -!- p15x [~p15x@64.145.91.99] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
03:01 -!- jtimon [~quassel@69.29.134.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
03:02 -!- rubensayshi [~ruben@91.206.81.13] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
03:03 -!- mkarrer_ [~mkarrer@19.Red-81-44-6.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
03:03 -!- mkarrer [~mkarrer@19.Red-81-44-6.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
03:26 < Taek> http://tauchain.org/tauchain.pdf
03:26 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@76-255-129-88.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
03:27 < Taek> "Moreover: we give an ability
03:27 < Taek> to implement Decidable computer programs with RDF, namely DTLC languages
03:27 < Taek> rather Turing Complete ones"
03:27 < Taek> seems like a step in the right direction at least
03:27 < nsh> ugh RDF
03:28 -!- p15_ [~p15@93.186.169.198] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
03:28 < nsh> nothing good will ever come out of RDF. the only person to have ever made something vaguely good out of RDF was Aaron Swartz, and he was too young to know better
03:28 -!- p15x [~p15x@64.145.91.51] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
03:30 -!- p15x_ [~p15x@64.145.91.33] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
03:30 -!- p15 [~p15@93.186.169.205] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
03:49 -!- chmod755 [~chmod755@unaffiliated/chmod755] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
03:53 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
03:53 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@120.88.228.99] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
03:55 -!- moa [~kiwigb@opentransactions/dev/moa] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
04:00 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@120.88.228.99] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
04:04 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@120.88.228.99] has quit [Client Quit]
04:07 -!- ishahnaz [~null@unaffiliated/ishahnaz] has quit []
04:18 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
04:33 < lmatteis> nsh: not true. check out http://linkeddatafragments.org/
04:33 < lmatteis> federated querying via HTTP and RDF
04:33 < nsh> hmm
04:34 < nsh> does it require the cooperation of other people?
04:34 < nsh> here's the general all-purpose spoiler for semantic web: it won't work, probably because it requires the cooperaiton of other people
04:34 < nsh> who don't care enough to cooperate
04:36 < nsh> every month since 1994 someone has come up with a genius, workable plan to make data on the web queryable and accessible programmatically, and every month an idea has been a complete failure because people are not going to put the work in to structure things or render structure accessible or stop actively frustrating the use of alternate modalities to access their stuff
04:36 < nsh> people want to control what you see, and how you see it
04:36 < nsh> people suck
04:36 < lmatteis> nsh: well no. it's not p2p. it's client server. cool thing is that as a data provider, you can link your triples to other published datasets. then clients can query both datasets, even if they're stored on different servers, without knowing it, because there's an RDF link.
04:37 < nsh> masturbation :)
04:37 < nsh> where are amazon's triples? ebay's triples? the weather channel's triples?
04:37 < lmatteis> they're right there, on their HTML pages.
04:38 < nsh> right, screen-scraping
04:38 < lmatteis> <span title="My product" type="product"></span> -- that's an RDF triple afterall
04:38 < nsh> the woeful lame substitute for success that people have been bludgeoning at the web for 20 years
04:38 < nsh> :)
04:38 < lmatteis> sure
04:39 < lmatteis> but p2p alternatives aren't working
04:39  * nsh nods
04:39 < nsh> we just don't deserve nice things, i believe
04:39 < nsh> so i've stopped trying to imagine a way we might have them
04:40 -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
04:42 < lmatteis> haha ok. i guess that's a nice way of putting it
04:48 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
04:49 -!- p15_ [~p15@93.186.169.198] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded]
04:50 -!- p15 [~p15@93.186.169.198] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
05:00 -!- p15 [~p15@93.186.169.198] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded]
05:01 -!- p15 [~p15@93.186.169.198] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
05:18 -!- c0rw|zZz is now known as c0rw1n
05:22 -!- King_Rex [~King_Rex@3.sub-70-193-163.myvzw.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
05:28 -!- Aquentin [~Aquentin@unaffiliated/aquentin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
05:30 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has left #bitcoin-wizards []
05:44 -!- ishahnaz [~null@unaffiliated/ishahnaz] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
05:48 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has quit [Quit: Bye]
05:50 -!- ishahnaz [~null@unaffiliated/ishahnaz] has quit []
05:57 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r167-57-146-155.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
06:02 -!- ozanyurt [~textual@151.250.136.191] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
06:02 -!- hashtag_ [~hashtagg_@cpe-98-157-211-2.ma.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
06:19 -!- ozanyurt [~textual@151.250.136.191] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
06:19 -!- p15x_ [~p15x@61.149.241.226] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
06:20 -!- p15_ [~p15@93.186.169.197] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
06:20 -!- p15x [~p15x@64.145.91.51] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
06:21 -!- p15 [~p15@93.186.169.198] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
06:22 -!- p15_ [~p15@93.186.169.197] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded]
06:33 -!- hearn [~mike@host-78-65-196-27.homerun.telia.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
06:34 -!- afk11 [~afk11@unaffiliated/afk11] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
06:41 < kanzure> nsh: does micropayments change any of that
06:41 < kanzure> or is it still equally hopeless
06:46 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
06:46 -!- ozanyurt_ [~textual@151.250.136.191] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
06:46 < nsh> structuralisation incentives or a culture of content presentation that gives it implicitly. unsure if micropayments would help. certainly not in and of themselves
06:47 < nsh> * .. are needed
06:47 -!- Tiraspol [~Tiraspol3@unaffiliated/tiraspol] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
06:47 -!- Tiraspol [~Tiraspol3@unaffiliated/tiraspol] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
06:48 < nsh> i have been optimistic before about a multistakeholder community curated ontology model but it seems much harder to make materialise than content itself (e.g. wikipedia, which is far from perfect without their being direct logical implications for others as a result of editor fiefdoms)
06:49 -!- weefinger [63084175@gateway/web/freenode/ip.99.8.65.117] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
06:49 -!- ozanyurt [~textual@151.250.136.191] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
06:50 -!- dgenr8 [~dgenr8@unaffiliated/dgenr8] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
06:50 < kanzure> why would multiple stakeholders be able to make an ontology when i struggle with just one person making an ontology? bah
06:51 -!- dgenr8 [~dgenr8@unaffiliated/dgenr8] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
06:57 -!- hearn [~mike@host-78-65-196-27.homerun.telia.com] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
07:04 -!- hearn [~mike@host-78-65-196-27.homerun.telia.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
07:12 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@120.88.228.99] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
07:17 -!- Artimage [d88b8b32@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.216.139.139.50] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
07:19 -!- Artimage [d88b8b32@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.216.139.139.50] has quit [Client Quit]
07:19 -!- Artimage [d88b8b32@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.216.139.139.50] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
07:21 -!- hearn [~mike@host-78-65-196-27.homerun.telia.com] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
07:25 -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
07:28 -!- kmels [~kmels@184.62.151.186.static.intelnet.net.gt] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
07:28 -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-185-201-214-201.cm.vtr.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
07:30 -!- paleh0rse [~opet@208.167.254.75] has quit []
07:38 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@76-255-129-88.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
07:39 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@120.88.228.99] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
07:41 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@120.88.228.99] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
07:49 -!- nwilcox [~nwilcox@74-95-207-205-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
07:51 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Quit: Quitte]
07:55 -!- afk11 [~afk11@unaffiliated/afk11] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
08:05 -!- davi [~davi@gnu/davi] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
08:06 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@120.88.228.99] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
08:08 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@120.88.228.99] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
08:12 -!- kristofferR [~kristoffe@208.37-191-147.fiber.lynet.no] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
08:12 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
08:19 -!- zooko [~user@sta-207-174-117-102.rockynet.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
08:19 -!- afk11 [~afk11@unaffiliated/afk11] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
08:20 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
08:21 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
08:25 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Quit: Quitte]
08:25 -!- kmels [~kmels@184.62.151.186.static.intelnet.net.gt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
08:28 -!- Artimage [d88b8b32@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.216.139.139.50] has quit [Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client]
08:34 -!- afk11 [~afk11@unaffiliated/afk11] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
08:35 -!- mkarrer [~mkarrer@88.5.193.71] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
08:35 -!- Artimage [d88b8b32@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.216.139.139.50] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
08:39 -!- Guest6_ [~textual@71-94-152-236.static.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
08:42 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
08:49 -!- bedeho [~bedeho@50-202-37-133-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
08:50 -!- ASTP001 [~ASTP001@50-78-139-78-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
08:51 -!- afk11 [~afk11@unaffiliated/afk11] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
08:57 -!- mkarrer [~mkarrer@88.5.193.71] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
09:01 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r167-57-146-155.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
09:04 -!- bendavenport [~bpd@96.90.231.161] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
09:10 -!- Guest6_ [~textual@71-94-152-236.static.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com]
09:13 -!- ASTP001 [~ASTP001@50-78-139-78-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
09:15 -!- jaekwon [~jaekwon@75-101-96-71.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
09:23 < nsh> kanzure, well, in theory the same way they consensuated on the corpus of human knowledge and a rough categorisation and association structure to it
09:24 < kanzure> did that happen?
09:26 < nsh> one person doesn't know how everything is organised as well as [some self-selecting sample of] everyone does
09:26 < nsh> (and some magical platform, process, culture and mechanism for self-organisation)
09:26 -!- JackH [~Jack@host86-190-246-120.range86-190.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
09:29 -!- SDCDev [~quassel@unaffiliated/sdcdev] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
09:31 -!- kmels [~kmels@186.64.110.122] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
09:32 -!- dgenr8 [~dgenr8@unaffiliated/dgenr8] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
09:33 -!- AlphaTech [uid35525@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jykrpmypirbsjppk] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
09:36 < nsh> wikipedia was written and is of appreciable utility throughout the world. it's nothing to scoff at
09:39 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
09:43 -!- davi [~davi@gnu/davi] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
09:44 -!- davi [~davi@gnu/davi] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
09:45 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@76-255-129-88.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
09:48 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@120.88.228.99] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
09:57 -!- davi [~davi@gnu/davi] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
09:59 -!- jaekwon [~jaekwon@75-101-96-71.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
10:07 -!- GAit1 [~GAit@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
10:07 -!- GAit1 [~GAit@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Client Quit]
10:10 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
10:10 -!- ASTP001 [~ASTP001@50-78-139-78-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
10:13 -!- hashtag [~hashtagg_@cpe-98-157-219-44.ma.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
10:18 -!- jaekwon [~jaekwon@75-101-96-71.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
10:19 -!- JackH [~Jack@host-80-43-143-7.as13285.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
10:23 -!- rubensayshi [~ruben@91.206.81.13] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
10:33 -!- kristofferR [~kristoffe@208.37-191-147.fiber.lynet.no] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com]
10:36 -!- ASTP001 [~ASTP001@50-78-139-78-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
10:37 -!- ishahnaz [~null@unaffiliated/ishahnaz] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
10:39 -!- fabianfabian [~fabianfab@5ED15F42.cm-7-2b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
10:41 -!- ASTP001 [~ASTP001@50-78-139-78-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
10:45 -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
10:46 -!- davi [~davi@gnu/davi] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
10:47 -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@D979E961.cm-3-2d.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
10:47 -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@D979E961.cm-3-2d.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Changing host]
10:47 -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
11:00 -!- JackH_ [~Jack@host-80-43-143-71.as13285.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
11:01 -!- JackH [~Jack@host-80-43-143-7.as13285.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
11:04 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
11:05 -!- kyuupichan [~Neil@ae041057.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
11:12 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
11:12 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
11:12 -!- JackH_ is now known as JackH
11:15 -!- snthsnth [~snthsnth@c-98-207-208-241.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
11:16 -!- Artimage [d88b8b32@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.216.139.139.50] has quit [Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client]
11:26 -!- jaekwon [~jaekwon@75-101-96-71.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
11:26 -!- zooko [~user@sta-207-174-117-102.rockynet.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
11:30 -!- Artimage [d88b8b32@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.216.139.139.50] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
11:33 -!- davi [~davi@gnu/davi] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
11:35 -!- kristofferR [~kristoffe@208.37-191-147.fiber.lynet.no] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
11:38 -!- Icematikx [~Icematikx@cpc43-stok16-2-0-cust109.1-4.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
11:38 -!- nubbins` [~leel@unaffiliated/nubbins] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
11:42 -!- Guest72507 [~quassel@50-0-37-37.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.]
11:44 -!- CodeShark [~textual@cpe-76-167-237-202.san.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
11:45 -!- jaekwon [~jaekwon@75-101-96-71.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
11:46 -!- Cory [~Cory@unaffiliated/cory] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
11:48 -!- Pasha [~Cory@unaffiliated/cory] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
11:48 -!- kmels [~kmels@186.64.110.122] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
11:49 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r167-57-146-155.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
11:49 -!- maaku [~quassel@50-0-37-37.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
11:50 -!- maaku is now known as Guest34456
11:54 -!- warptangent [~warptange@unaffiliated/warptangent] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
11:54 -!- warptangent [~warptange@unaffiliated/warptangent] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
11:55 -!- Pasha is now known as Cory
12:04 -!- mentazoom [~admin@unaffiliated/mentazoom] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
12:06 -!- mentazoom [~admin@unaffiliated/mentazoom] has quit [Client Quit]
12:08 -!- kristofferR [~kristoffe@208.37-191-147.fiber.lynet.no] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com]
12:15 -!- kmels [~kmels@186.64.110.122] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
12:17 -!- snthsnth [~snthsnth@c-98-207-208-241.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
12:19 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r167-57-146-155.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
12:24 -!- jgarzik [~jgarzik@unaffiliated/jgarzik] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep]
12:29 -!- kristofferR [~kristoffe@208.37-191-147.fiber.lynet.no] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
12:33 -!- AlphaTech [uid35525@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jykrpmypirbsjppk] has quit []
12:33 -!- AnoAnon [~AnoAnon@197.39.210.228] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
12:33 -!- AnoAnon [~AnoAnon@197.39.210.228] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded]
12:34 -!- King_Rex [~King_Rex@3.sub-70-193-163.myvzw.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
12:37 -!- AnoAnon [~AnoAnon@197.39.210.228] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
12:38 -!- AnoAnon [~AnoAnon@197.39.210.228] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded]
12:47 -!- davi [~davi@gnu/davi] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
12:49 -!- snthsnth [~snthsnth@c-98-207-208-241.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
12:51 -!- ASTP001 [~ASTP001@50-78-139-78-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
13:02 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
13:02 -!- sergiohlb [~Sergio@unaffiliated/sergiohlb] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
13:02 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
13:03 -!- ASTP001 [~ASTP001@50-78-139-78-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
13:03 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
13:04 -!- ASTP001 [~ASTP001@50-78-139-78-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Client Quit]
13:04 -!- ASTP001 [~ASTP001@50-78-139-78-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
13:05 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@120.88.228.99] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
13:11 -!- CoinMuncher [~jannes@178.132.211.90] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
13:13 -!- King_Rex [~King_Rex@2600:1005:b01b:1f3:fc37:6896:2ae1:f364] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
13:15 -!- MoALTz [~no@78.11.179.104] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
13:23 -!- ASTP001 [~ASTP001@50-78-139-78-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
13:25 -!- jaekwon [~jaekwon@75-101-96-71.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
13:27 -!- ASTP001 [~ASTP001@50-78-139-78-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
13:27 -!- veox [~veox@shinji.veox.pw] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
13:28 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@120.88.228.99] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
13:28 < ebfull> what's the name of the parameter which designates the number of blocks until a coinbase transaction can be spent?
13:29 < ebfull> what's the current thought about the economic and game theoretic consequences of increasing that number substantially, perhaps to target years forward?
13:31 -!- AlphaTech [uid35525@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bzbklshvpkmwnysk] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
13:32 -!- nubbins` [~leel@unaffiliated/nubbins] has quit [Quit: Quit]
13:33 < Taek> years would be a mistake
13:33 < Taek> Bitcoin is already highly risky
13:33 < Taek> and most miners seem to be in it for relatively short term gains
13:35 < Taek> 3 months would be an interesting experiment, but I don't think that any currency implementing such delay would have an easy time bootstrapping
13:35 -!- nwilcox [~nwilcox@74-95-207-205-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
13:35 < MRL-Relay> [tacotime] ebfull: coinbasematurity and it's 100; that's more #bitcoin-dev though
13:35 < Taek> I think that the game theory stuff is on topic
13:36 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@120.88.228.217] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
13:36 < MRL-Relay> [tacotime] ok
13:38 -!- davi [~davi@gnu/davi] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
13:39 -!- snthsnth [~snthsnth@c-98-207-208-241.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
13:39 -!- CodeShark [~textual@cpe-76-167-237-202.san.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
13:53 -!- jaekwon [~jaekwon@75-101-96-71.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
13:59 -!- ASTP001 [~ASTP001@50-78-139-78-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
14:00 -!- ASTP001 [~ASTP001@50-78-139-78-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
14:06 -!- [d__d] [~d__d]@ec2-54-85-45-223.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
14:07 -!- [d__d] [~d__d]@ec2-54-85-45-223.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
14:13 -!- bedeho [~bedeho@50-202-37-133-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
14:13 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
14:14 -!- bedeho [~bedeho@50-202-37-133-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
14:16 -!- hearn [~mike@host-78-65-196-53.homerun.telia.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
14:19 -!- dgenr8 [~dgenr8@unaffiliated/dgenr8] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
14:19 < instagibbs> anything too long and my guess is people would minimize exposure by selling immature coinbase rewards
14:24 -!- ozanyurt_ [~textual@151.250.136.191] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
14:27 -!- LeMiner2 [LeMiner@5ED1AFBF.cm-7-2c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has left #bitcoin-wizards []
14:27 -!- jaekwon [~jaekwon@75-101-96-71.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
14:27 -!- LeMiner [LeMiner@unaffiliated/leminer] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
14:28 -!- nwilcox [~nwilcox@50-1-85-32.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
14:30 -!- jaekwon [~jaekwon@75-101-96-71.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
14:38 < kanzure> "Incentives to run full nodes" http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-August/010343.html
14:39 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@120.88.228.217] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
14:39 -!- snthsnth [~snthsnth@c-98-207-208-241.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
14:43 < lmatteis> plot twist: petertodd is satoshi
14:45 -!- JackH [~Jack@host-80-43-143-71.as13285.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
14:46 < kanzure> that's not helpful
14:50 -!- hearn [~mike@host-78-65-196-53.homerun.telia.com] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
14:54 -!- AnoAnon [~AnoAnon@197.39.210.228] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
14:55 -!- AnoAnon [~AnoAnon@197.39.210.228] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded]
14:58 -!- ashtin [~ashtin@50.248.81.66] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
15:01 -!- kristofferR [~kristoffe@208.37-191-147.fiber.lynet.no] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com]
15:02 -!- nwilcox [~nwilcox@50-1-85-32.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
15:03 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
15:03 -!- nwilcox [~nwilcox@50-1-85-32.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
15:05 -!- Artimage [d88b8b32@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.216.139.139.50] has quit [Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client]
15:13 -!- slyf0x [~slyf0x@50.248.81.66] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
15:30 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: :)]
15:35 -!- King_Rex [~King_Rex@2600:1005:b01b:1f3:fc37:6896:2ae1:f364] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
15:37 -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
15:40 -!- afk11 [~afk11@unaffiliated/afk11] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
15:41 -!- ASTP001 [~ASTP001@50-78-139-78-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
15:46 -!- koshii [~w@c-68-58-151-30.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
15:46 -!- King_Rex [~King_Rex@2600:1005:b060:7414:130:ed11:5a4e:ae31] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
15:47 -!- snthsnth [~snthsnth@c-98-207-208-241.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
15:51 -!- koshii [~w@c-68-58-151-30.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
15:54 -!- snthsnth [~snthsnth@c-98-207-208-241.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
16:00 -!- blackwraith [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
16:04 -!- snthsnth [~snthsnth@c-98-207-208-241.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
16:08 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
16:10 -!- nwilcox [~nwilcox@50-1-85-32.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
16:10 -!- nwilcox [~nwilcox@50-1-85-32.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
16:11 -!- koshii [~w@c-68-58-151-30.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
16:14 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has quit [Quit: Bye]
16:16 -!- crescend1 [~mozart@173.203.100.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
16:16 -!- stevedekorte [~stevedeko@164.sub-70-197-5.myvzw.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
16:17 < stevedekorte> a friend of mine just set this service up as a weekend project: http://www.backbxt.com
16:18 -!- koshii [~w@c-68-58-151-30.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
16:18 < fluffypony> stevedekorte: you're in the room room for spam.
16:18 < fluffypony> try #bitcoin
16:18 -!- crescendo [~mozart@unaffiliated/crescendo] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
16:18 -!- kmels [~kmels@186.64.110.122] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
16:20 -!- sparetire_ [~sparetire@unaffiliated/sparetire] has quit [Quit: sparetire_]
16:28 -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
16:30 -!- jtimon [~quassel@69.29.134.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:30 -!- nwilcox [~nwilcox@50-1-85-32.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
16:31 -!- nwilcox [~nwilcox@50-1-85-32.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
16:34 -!- jgarzik [~jgarzik@unaffiliated/jgarzik] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
16:34 -!- near89 [~near@unaffiliated/near89] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
16:43 -!- gielbier [~giel@a149043.upc-a.chello.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
16:44 -!- frankenmint [~frankenmi@174-25-28-8.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
16:47 -!- moa [~kiwigb@opentransactions/dev/moa] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
16:48 -!- gielbier [~giel@a149043.upc-a.chello.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
16:57 -!- King_Rex [~King_Rex@2600:1005:b060:7414:130:ed11:5a4e:ae31] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:02 -!- King_Rex [~King_Rex@37.sub-70-193-169.myvzw.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
17:03 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
17:04 -!- nwilcox [~nwilcox@50-1-85-32.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
17:13 -!- chmod755 [~chmod755@unaffiliated/chmod755] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat]
17:13 -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
17:14 -!- ishahnaz [~null@unaffiliated/ishahnaz] has quit []
17:17 -!- nwilcox [~nwilcox@108-65-2-12.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
17:19 -!- mengine [~mengine@251.92-221-142.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
17:28 < stevedekorte> thanks “fluffypony”
17:29 < fluffypony> stevedekorte: no need for inverted commas, this is IRC and having a nom de plume is neither unusual nor inverted-comma-worthy
17:31 -!- RedEmerald [~RedEmeral@c-98-210-184-39.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
17:33 -!- xtalmath [~xtalmath@ip-83-134-83-218.dsl.scarlet.be] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
17:44 -!- tlrobinson [~tlrobinso@vpn-sfbay-198-11-218-35.hosts.getcloakvpn.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
17:46 -!- nwilcox [~nwilcox@108-65-2-12.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
17:47 -!- nwilcox [~nwilcox@108-65-2-12.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
17:49 -!- fabianfabian [~fabianfab@5ED15F42.cm-7-2b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: what]
17:49 -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
17:54 -!- snthsnth [~snthsnth@c-98-207-208-241.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
17:58 -!- tlrobinson [~tlrobinso@vpn-sfbay-198-11-218-35.hosts.getcloakvpn.com] has quit [Quit: tlrobinson]
18:01 -!- jaekwon [~jaekwon@75-101-96-71.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:02 -!- frankenmint [~frankenmi@174-25-28-8.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:05 -!- kyuupichan [~Neil@ae041057.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
18:05 -!- Burrito [~Burrito@unaffiliated/burrito] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
18:10 -!- p15x [~p15x@64.145.91.51] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
18:12 -!- p15x_ [~p15x@61.149.241.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
18:13 -!- near89 [~near@unaffiliated/near89] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
18:17 -!- RedEmerald [~RedEmeral@c-98-210-184-39.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
18:20 -!- bendavenport [~bpd@96.90.231.161] has quit [Quit: bendavenport]
18:20 -!- near89 [~near@unaffiliated/near89] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
18:28 -!- RedEmerald [~RedEmeral@c-98-210-184-39.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
18:29 -!- nwilcox [~nwilcox@108-65-2-12.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
18:30 -!- snthsnth [~snthsnth@c-98-207-208-241.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
18:36 -!- Dr-G [~Dr-G@unaffiliated/dr-g] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
18:37 -!- RedEmerald [~RedEmeral@c-98-210-184-39.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
18:38 -!- Dr-G2 [~Dr-G@unaffiliated/dr-g] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
18:39 -!- stevedekorte [~stevedeko@164.sub-70-197-5.myvzw.com] has quit [Quit: stevedekorte]
18:43 -!- airbreather [~airbreath@d149-67-99-43.nap.wideopenwest.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
18:50 -!- mengine [~mengine@251.92-221-142.customer.lyse.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
18:51 -!- stevedekorte [~stevedeko@173-167-114-230-sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
18:53 < kanzure> petertodd: including a second merkle tree might cause users to just start using third-party api services when they leave spv.
18:53 < kanzure> or is there a way around that?
18:58 -!- RedEmerald [~RedEmeral@c-98-210-184-39.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
18:59 -!- afk11 [~afk11@unaffiliated/afk11] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
19:01 < gmaxwell> kanzure: what do you mean by leave SPV?
19:02 -!- kmels [~kmels@184.62.151.186.static.intelnet.net.gt] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
19:03 < gmaxwell> I think we need to have a little bit of terminology come to jesus.  What BitcoinJ implements is an incomplete version of SPV; and somehow that incomplete version has replaced SPV in our parlance (presumably because the complete version doesn't exist, and BitcoinJ does)
19:03 -!- [\\\] is now known as imsaguy
19:03 < gmaxwell> (Electrum's SPV is even more incomplete... but same deal.)
19:03 -!- RedEmerald [~RedEmeral@c-98-210-184-39.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
19:04 < gmaxwell> Go load up and read the bitcoin whitepaper, section 8. Don't just skim or stop reading at the graph.
19:05 -!- stevedekorte [~stevedeko@173-167-114-230-sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: stevedekorte]
19:06 < afk11> Electrum doesn't even use bloom filters.. can it be called SPV?
19:06 -!- King_Rex [~King_Rex@37.sub-70-193-169.myvzw.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
19:07 -!- stevedekorte [~stevedeko@173-167-114-230-sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
19:07 -!- stevedekorte [~stevedeko@173-167-114-230-sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Client Quit]
19:08 < gmaxwell> afk11: 0_o. Bloomfilters are "offchain" tech, they're not part of the bitcoin consensus system; and were only added in Bitcoin Core 0.8. Not all nodes even implement them. Thats like saying they don't implement getmempool can they be SPV? :)
19:10 < gmaxwell> If you just mean that they're not very private; in practice they may be more private than normal bitcoinj users because the existing bloomfilter usage is almost completely deanonymizing; and the clients are very promiscious in sharing their filters. Where electrum sends an address list but does it to fewer servers.
19:14 < kanzure> the "security drills" plan was to encourage the use of fully-validating nodes, but using a third-party api seems like a trivial workaround
19:14 < kanzure> from http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-August/010343.html
19:15 < gmaxwell> kanzure: that at least makes their insecurity model transparent to them, they know they're depending on the API. I'm not sure that it matters: they're already largely using the APIs.
19:15 < kanzure> hm alright, out-of-scope for that particular plan then, fair enough
19:16 < gmaxwell> If you go monitor your inbound connections on v4 reachable nodes you'll find that there are very few BitcoinJ nodes connecting-- much less than there used to be.  I don't know how much electrum traffic there is.  Charitably I hope more things are just using electrum, but from talking to people I suspect a lot of it is APIs.
19:16 -!- zooko [~user@2601:281:8301:e87f:3c8c:7ebe:6a21:63a1] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
19:17 < afk11> gmaxwell: ah, I see what you mean. SPV proves the tx is included in the merkle branch. how you arrive at that doesn't matter.
19:18 -!- btcdrak [uid52049@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-tmqrbsdllkmsaqyv] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
19:19 < gmaxwell> Yea.
19:19 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@120.88.228.126] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
19:19 < gmaxwell> Actually there is a proposal for a comitted bloom filter that would remove most of the privacy and dos attack issues for bloom filters, but they would need a fair bit more bandwidth, alas.
19:20 < gmaxwell> Also one of those things where there is a huge amount of design space available.
19:21 < gmaxwell> The idea is that instead of the client sending a bloom "filter" to the server, each block has a commited bloom "map" that would allow clients to fetch only th blocks (or parts of blocks) that they're interested in.
19:21 -!- imsaguy is now known as [\\\]
19:22 < gmaxwell> The resulting maps are smaller than the filters if the client has more addresses than are typicall in a block.  (the fact that there is a map once per block vs a filter sent potentially only once hardly matters because the existing filter design gets contanimated quickly and must be reset or it matches everything)
19:22 < afk11> Hmm, interesting idea. I've wondered if blocktrail,etc could accept filters. there are privacy issues that make filters impractical. (only one result in a long time, or you're requesting everything). but why not?
19:31 -!- merlincorey [merlin@sm.ok.es.nu.gs] has quit [Changing host]
19:31 -!- merlincorey [merlin@nginx/adept/merlincorey] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
19:32 -!- KFl6WxEUI1Zbp2 [~konichiwa@c-73-189-234-152.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
19:33 -!- afk11 [~afk11@unaffiliated/afk11] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
19:37 -!- alferz [~alferz@unaffiliated/alfer] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
19:37 -!- c0rw1n is now known as c0rw|zZz
19:43 -!- alferz [~alferz@c-174-50-153-223.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
19:43 -!- alferz [~alferz@c-174-50-153-223.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host]
19:43 -!- alferz [~alferz@unaffiliated/alfer] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
19:43 -!- bramc [~bram@99-75-88-206.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
19:43 < bramc> Hey everybody
19:43 -!- near89 [~near@unaffiliated/near89] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
19:46 -!- KFl6WxEUI1Zbp2 [~konichiwa@c-73-189-234-152.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit []
19:46 < bramc> In response to linking to Satoshi's message, a bunch of people expressed, ahem, skepticism that was actually him, as if it was implausible that bitcoin's original author would say that a lack of full nodes is a real problem.
19:47 -!- alferz [~alferz@unaffiliated/alfer] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
19:47 -!- rasengan [~rasengan@pdpc/corporate-sponsor/privateinternetaccess.com/rasengan] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
19:48 -!- KFl6WxEUI1Zbp2 [~konichiwa@c-73-189-234-152.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
19:48 < bramc> The whole thing has me feeling very sour on the bitcoin ecosystem. I find bitcoin fascinating as a crypto project and love working on it, but the broader ecosystem makes me hate humanity
19:51 < bramc> Dumb question: Is bitcoin-XT merge-mineable with bitcoin? My understanding is no.
19:54 < ebfull> i don't think so. at least one side needs to explicitly permit merge-mining to take place. neither XT nor Core permits that, nor could they really
19:54 -!- p15 [~p15@93.186.169.212] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
19:54 < ebfull> everyone here that works really hard on Bitcoin and cryptocurrency does so in the face of seemingly insurmountable problems. there's no shortage of motivation, as far as i can tell
19:54 < zooko> Hiya bramc and ebfull.
19:54 < ebfull> hi zooko
19:56 -!- snthsnth [~snthsnth@c-98-207-208-241.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
19:59 < rusty> bramc: it can be nasty, yes.  But the bitcoin ecosystem has always had a problem with taking bad news; I think back to MtGox and how the larger community willfully ignored the warning signs.
20:01 < gmaxwell> bramc: I don't see why people are expressing surprise at the message.
20:02 < gmaxwell> It is almost completely consistent with my expectation. In the not that unlikely case that its fake whomever wrote it went to considerable lengths to match style.
20:03 < gmaxwell> bramc: no, though either bitcoin or bitcoin-xt could be changed to make it merge minable.
20:03 < ebfull> not just that, but the opportunity of sending the email from the server. and the choice of when and what to send. wouldn't be surprised if it was satoshi
20:03 < gmaxwell> My position is somewhat biased by an unusual condition, the message changed my thinking on a few things for reasons I don't expect others to understand.
20:04 -!- snthsnth [~snthsnth@c-98-207-208-241.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
20:05 < zooko> gmaxwell: want to give us a chance to fail at that? :-)
20:05 < zooko> I'm curious.
20:05 < gmaxwell> (basically the point that hard forks are _normally_ hardforks even for spv clients; but the specific structure of this combined with the current security inadequacy of existing SPV clients means that they don't need to be upgraded; and that this is bad for system governance, because it greatly amplifies the overly consolidated miners ability to change policy unilaterally)
20:06 < zooko> Hm.
20:06 < midnightmagic> bramc: The comments in general and in specific about "declaring" it a failure does not, to me, match his old tone.
20:06 < TD-Linux> I thought we had software for this!
20:06 < gmaxwell> I have no clue if even the author was thinking the same thing as me there, but when he wrote "Nearly everyone has to agree on a change, and they have to do it without being forced or pressured into it." this clicked for me.
20:07 -!- sergiohlb [~Sergio@unaffiliated/sergiohlb] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20:08 < midnightmagic> TD-Linux: we do, and the authors admit that while it is the best-known-to-the-public stylometric tool that exists, it can be trivially fooled by simply asking the participants fool it.
20:08 < midnightmagic> TD-Linux: (but i like your joke)
20:11 < gmaxwell> midnightmagic: When matching style you can't match the parts that were new. Assume for a moment that the message is legit, the author had never in the past believed that the system was in an impending risk of failure. Why would you have previously expected intense language like that?  bleh. I hate even discussing this because I don't think it's possible to give the topic just coverage without sou
20:12 < gmaxwell> ndling like I'm strongly arguing that its real.
20:12 < gmaxwell> And I would say my position is probably weak it's real, strong it doesn't matter if its real or not.
20:13 < gmaxwell> I do think it's kind of halarious to see pepole argue that its fake for trivially falsifyable reasons, but then not update to increase their confidence that it's real when they're corrected.
20:15 < gmaxwell> E.g. people on reddit cited the following halarious example as reasons why it wasn't real: Used a commonwealth spelling, that it used two spaces after a period, that it said it wasn't aware of pooled mining, that it wasn't signed with that pgp key, and that it used that particular domain instead of GMX.
20:15 < gmaxwell> halariously, these are all _well know_ characteristics someone might look for in the real thing, exactly the opposite of what quite a few people were arguing.
20:15 < gmaxwell> Commedy this could couldn't be created in fiction, no one would believe it. :)
20:19 < TD-Linux> unfortunately I think reddit has turned from "hilarious" to "sad" recently
20:21 < [\\\]> +1
20:25 -!- iddo [~idddo@csm.cs.technion.ac.il] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
20:30 < bramc> gmaxwell, Yes it passes the literary forensics test of 'is very insightful about bitcoin'. I noticed his comment about how the lack of incentive for full nodes, which wasn't a problem in the past. That particular form of literary forensics isn't readily accessible to most people.
20:30 < bramc> gmaxwell, The moon landing footage is obviously fake! Look how bizarre the gravel looks flying off the wheels of the car!
20:31 < bramc> That is an interesting point about SPV, in that it doesn't force the system as a whole to be using the correct protocol, which running full nodes does.
20:32 -!- p15x_ [~p15x@64.145.91.70] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
20:32 -!- p15_ [~p15@114.248.210.124] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
20:33 < bramc> ebfull, There is a fair amount of good development resources put into Bitcoin, but there are many people put off by the ugliness of the core and the scaminess of the whole thing generally.
20:33 < moa> bramc: he said nodes not "full nodes"
20:33 -!- p15 [~p15@93.186.169.212] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
20:34 -!- p15_ [~p15@114.248.210.124] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded]
20:34 -!- [7] [~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven] has quit [Disconnected by services]
20:34 < bramc> moa, I think he meant full nodes. He also might not be using the latest vernacular.
20:34 -!- p15x [~p15x@64.145.91.51] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
20:34 -!- TheSeven [~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
20:35 < bramc> If bitcoin's market cap were in the millions instead of billions, there would be a lot less bad juju working on it. A lot less pay too, unfortunately.
20:38 -!- p15 [~p15@93.186.169.208] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
20:42 -!- comboy [~quassel@tesuji.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
20:43 -!- iddo [~idddo@csm.cs.technion.ac.il] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
20:48 -!- Keefe [~Keefe@unaffiliated/keefe] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
20:48 -!- AlphaTech [uid35525@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bzbklshvpkmwnysk] has quit []
20:54 -!- blackwraith [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
21:05 -!- kyuupichan [~Neil@ae041057.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
21:06 -!- kyuupichan [~Neil@ae041057.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
21:07 -!- comboy [~quassel@tesuji.pl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
21:11 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@120.88.228.126] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
21:12 -!- comboy [~quassel@tesuji.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
21:13 -!- comboy [~quassel@tesuji.pl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
21:16 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@120.88.228.126] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
21:20 -!- KFl6WxEUI1Zbp2 [~konichiwa@c-73-189-234-152.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ZZZzzz…]
21:20 -!- AlphaTech [uid35525@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ksshwzrusarezbej] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
21:25 -!- bendavenport [~bpd@c-50-131-42-132.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
21:26 -!- comboy [~quassel@tesuji.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
21:39 -!- p15x [~p15x@64.145.91.55] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
21:39 -!- p15_ [~p15@93.186.169.213] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
21:41 -!- p15x_ [~p15x@64.145.91.70] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
21:41 -!- p15 [~p15@93.186.169.208] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
21:49 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
21:52 -!- Emcy [~MC@unaffiliated/mc1984] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
21:55 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@120.88.228.126] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
21:55 -!- hearn [~mike@host-78-65-196-53.homerun.telia.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
21:57 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@120.88.228.126] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
22:06 -!- KFl6WxEUI1Zbp2 [~konichiwa@c-73-189-234-152.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
22:15 -!- comboy [~quassel@tesuji.pl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
22:21 -!- Starduster_ [~guest@unaffiliated/starduster] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
22:23 -!- espes__ [~espes@205.185.120.132] has quit [Quit: leaving]
22:24 -!- Starduster [~guest@unaffiliated/starduster] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
22:24 -!- espes__ [~espes@205.185.120.132] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
22:26 -!- hearn [~mike@host-78-65-196-53.homerun.telia.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
22:26 -!- hearn_ [~mike@host-78-65-196-53.homerun.telia.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
22:27 -!- hearn_ [~mike@host-78-65-196-53.homerun.telia.com] has quit [Client Quit]
22:30 -!- snthsnth [~snthsnth@c-98-207-208-241.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
22:33 -!- KFl6WxEUI1Zbp2 [~konichiwa@c-73-189-234-152.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ZZZzzz…]
22:38 -!- comboy [~quassel@tesuji.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
22:38 -!- wallet42 [~wallet42@120.88.228.126] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
22:40 -!- kmels [~kmels@184.62.151.186.static.intelnet.net.gt] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
22:49 -!- KFl6WxEUI1Zbp2 [~konichiwa@50.141.30.134] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
22:53 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@76-255-129-88.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
22:53 -!- KFl6WxEUI1Zbp2 [~konichiwa@50.141.30.134] has quit [Client Quit]
22:57 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
23:04 -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
23:05 -!- bramc [~bram@99-75-88-206.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep]
23:10 -!- zebedee [~Neil@ae041057.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
23:11 -!- kyuupichan [~Neil@ae041057.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
23:12 -!- zebedee [~Neil@ae041057.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
23:13 -!- kyuupichan [~Neil@ae041057.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
23:14 -!- comboy [~quassel@tesuji.pl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
23:27 -!- btcdrak [uid52049@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ivmwjyzzmbarleix] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
23:32 -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
23:33 -!- ozanyurt [~textual@151.250.136.191] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
23:48 -!- AaronvanW [~ewout@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
23:52 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
23:53 -!- bildramer [~bildramer@p4FE64770.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
23:53 -!- LeMiner2 [LeMiner@5ED1AFBF.cm-7-2c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
23:55 -!- LeMiner [LeMiner@unaffiliated/leminer] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
23:56 -!- blackwraith [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
--- Log closed Tue Aug 18 00:00:44 2015