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05:47 < kanzure> adam3us: there should be some method of estimating when you should run a second node (from a usage/security standpoint). presumably there's a maximum threshold of trust that you should be applying to each instance... or something?
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07:16 < Eliel> gmaxwell: I don't think most people form opinions through conscious logic. Rather the opinions form through some subconscious process and then the person tries to figure out some kind of an argument to back it hoping to make it more convincing.
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07:23 < Eliel> In other words, the don't update their beliefs because the argument they used had nothing to do with the belief in the first place.
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08:35 < bramc> The business of setting up blockchains for corporations is a very strange one. If you have a bank it makes a whole lot more sense to have them act as a slightly trusted authority, and dump mining completely while still having smart transactions
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08:36 < bramc> Maybe have them do public commitments to the bitcoin blockchain just to avoid funny business.
08:37 < jgarzik> bramc, That's pretty much what's happening
08:38 < jgarzik> bramc, You can dump PoW and a lot of the consensus bits if you have a trusted authority.  blockchain becomes a checksummed database audit log + smart transactions.
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08:38 < jgarzik> bramc, "anchoring" such chains in the main bitcoin blockchain by publishing a hash is also done
08:39 < jgarzik> Also snapshotting whole-UTXO hashes into the blockchain
08:39 < jgarzik> enabling pruning
08:40 < bramc> jgarzik, Oh good, that's pleasant to hear
08:40 < bramc> A bunch of the public materials from companies saying they do private blockchains are alarming.
08:41 < jgarzik> Another thing that's vaguely related:  "hashserv", a variant of which Storj Project uses
08:41 < jgarzik> hashserv periodically timestamps a merkle root into the bitcoin blockchain
08:41 < jgarzik> downstream clients communicate with hashserv, submit hashes and receive "receipts" (merkle branches)
08:42 < jgarzik> thus clients can produce that receipt and prove their document is hashed into the bitcoin blockchain
08:42 < jgarzik> without having to publish each and every hash
08:43 < jgarzik> timestamp millions of hashes with one bitcoin tx
08:43  * jgarzik intends to write a C/C++ version of a hashserv server
08:44 < jgarzik> Then you can easily anchor many private blockchains with a single bitcoin tx
08:44 < bramc> Is there a compact proof that you haven't made two parallel commitments?
08:45 < jgarzik> bramc, usually that's solved with some sort of timelocked commitment (CLTV)
08:46 < jgarzik> bramc, depends on the problem domain (cross-chain? etc.)
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08:47 < jgarzik> It will be fun when CLTV is widely deployed.  You can use a proof-of-timelocked-payment-to-yourself as a rate limiter / anti-spam / digital friction uses in all sorts of external services
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09:26 < Taek> jgarzik: how does CLTV help prove that there aren't parallel commitments in the blockchain?
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09:31 < jgarzik> Taek, You can't spend the same bitcoin twice
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09:32 < jgarzik> Taek, A service can provide a nonce value to embed, as one example, to ensure it is your payment
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09:36 < Taek> ok, that makes sense. So you'd follow a particular 'bitcoin' around to track updates to a database.
09:36 < Adlai> jgarzik: you forgot to list "broadcast channel" :)
09:40 < jgarzik> Taek, You can, though my example was largely thinking of using bitcoin as a way of granting rights to do $something $somewhere_else
09:40 < Adlai> admittedly, low throughput
09:40 < jgarzik> not necessarily track specific updates, which can be done off-chain
09:41 < jgarzik> at higher throughput :)
09:41 < jgarzik> commit 1 BTC to the chain for 24 hours with nonce 0x1234, and a chain grants you permission to post up to 1MB of data to it within that window
09:42 < jgarzik> commit 1 BTC to the main chain for 24 hours with nonce 0x1234, and a side chain grants you permission to post up to 1MB of data to it within that window
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09:44 < Iriez> gmaxwell: I just wanted to say thank you for your recent update regarding privacy issues on the tracker. It seems to be me that we've gone several years now without any focus on privacy. The time is ripe for exploration on this, and users around the world would benefit greatly.
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09:59 < zooko> lriez, gmaxwell: +1!
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10:09 < bramc> Adlai, The amount of throughput 'doesn't matter' in that you can always commit a merkle root, which can represent an arbitrarily large amount of data
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11:50 < gmaxwell> I'm kind of beside myself by how much net-upvoting this has had https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3hfgpo/an_initiative_to_bring_advanced_privacy_features/ vs e.g. posts on CT a month ago which never reached visibility on reddit.
11:50 < zooko> :-)
11:51 < zooko> Because this is about a value that people care about -- privacy -- instead of a technology which they might not understand -- CT.
11:51 < ebfull> like the block size limit debate, it means that technical discussions are being rapidly politicized
11:51 < ebfull> which may be a bad thing, if you think about it.
11:52 < ebfull> that is, the motives for upvoting this aren't to encourage constructive discussion but to feed the debate and create figureheads and teams out of ideas and directions for the project
11:52 < zooko> Hm. Good point.
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11:54 < leakypat> I'm am befuddled by reddit
11:55 < kanzure> at some point bitcoin is going to be the first introduction that some users have to critical thinking, just something to keep in mind
11:55 < kanzure> especially as more users happen
11:58 < kanzure> (and some users will be uninterested in critical thinking; and it would be nice to figure out a way to make this okay and non-destructive)
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12:25 < gmaxwell> kanzure: well thats kind of why we created #bitcoin-pricetalk  there was a large flood of people into #bitcoin that just wanted to say "buy buy buy sell sell sell moon moon crashing moon" so we gave them their own cesspool. Interestingly it mostly self organized into something tolerable.
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12:44 < waxwing> gmaxwell: (1) people don't understand CT (already mentioned) but more importantly (2) it's mixed in with sidechains, which people not only don't understand, but many are suspicious of
12:44 < waxwing> the psychology of (2) is something that i remain confused, but fascinated by
12:47 < kanzure> "trying to be careful about things only means that they are being really *really* harmful! if they really were doing good work, then they would be okay with destroying everything."
12:48 < kanzure> also, dumping people into a cesspool is not a good education technique for critical thinking skills. i know it's off-topic, but really- bitcoin is going to be the first introduction to many people for software, programming, open-source, critical thinking, consensus protocols, denial of service attacks, cryptography...
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12:57 < Eliel> Well, it's like the internet and the influx of the masses into it. There weren't enough old users to teach the newcomers the ropes.
12:58 < Eliel> ... and we're not at that point with Bitcoin yet I think...
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13:05 < fluffypony> Eliel: Eternal September
13:05 < fluffypony> pretty sure we're at that stage with BTC, even a bit past it
13:06 < kanzure> i don't think that's helpful
13:07 < CodeShark> I still don't understand how gmaxwell finds time to even bother with reddit
13:07 < fluffypony> kanzure: what, identifying the Eternal September stage?
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13:13 < kanzure> fluffypony: yes, calling it "eternal september" is not helpful. if you could come up with some proof that it's equally hopeless, that might be helpful, but...
13:14 < fluffypony> oh I didn't find that period hopeless
13:14 < fluffypony> annoying, sure, but change is inevitable
13:14 < fluffypony> coping effectively with that change is critical
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14:47 < kanzure> "Exploiting bittorrent vulnerabilities to launch reflective DDoS attacks" https://www.usenix.org/system/files/conference/woot15/woot15-paper-adamsky.pdf
14:49 < bramc> kanzure, We're aware of and working on that one
14:49 < kanzure> hacker news seems to think you're ahead https://github.com/arvidn/libtorrent/releases/tag/libtorrent-1_0_6
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14:50 < kanzure> via https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10079211
14:50 < bramc> kanzure, I don't know if we've pushed out the auto-update to utorrent yet
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14:51 < kanzure> oh yeah you bought that. right. i forgot.
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--- Log closed Wed Aug 19 00:00:45 2015