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00:04 < Taek> I know a while ago you guys were searching for a better term than 'two way peg'. Is 'duplex peg' potentially better? (not quite related)
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06:59 < kanzure> someone bothered to describe a web-of-trust "real people" approach to dynamic membership consensus http://ashes.network/ashes.pdf
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07:32 < tromp_> Taek, i find duplex to be much less descriptive than two-way :(
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08:22 < kanzure> "c implementation of Agrawal-Kayal-Saxena (AKS) primality test algorithm" https://github.com/tingliu/aks-primality-test
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11:41 < btcdrak> Would I be making a complete ass of myself to propose something like https://gist.github.com/btcdrak/1c3a323100a912b605b5 as rough a idea for block size limit resizing?
11:44 < rabidus> why you picked your 8mb maximum block?
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11:45 < btcdrak> completely randomly based on the fact Chinese miners have expressed extreme consternation against anything more than 8MB. I have no strong opinions, but I propose a limit so it can become a talking point to keep, alter or remove.
11:46 < btcdrak> similarly increasing immediately to 2MB is chose as a peace pipe. It is also not essential to the proposal.
11:51 < gmaxwell> I'd drop the immediate increase, I think thats an olive branch that doesn't help.  The updates may be two frequent because they don't allow for planning thats tricky.
11:51 < gmaxwell> The issue is that in business I would always have to provision assuming that it could become the maximum very quickly at any time (unless I retain enough hashpower to personally stop it)
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11:52 < gmaxwell> in your scheme you need to make the block invalid if it fails. Otherwise I can always _try_ to vote for a huge increase at no cost to myself.
11:52 < warren> btcdrak: "Chinese miners have expressed extreme consternation against anything more than 8MB."  ..... URL?
11:55 < gwillen> gmaxwell: the 2MB initial seems harmless enough; do you really think it would not be a useful peace offering?
11:55 < c0rw1n> is there anything technical that makes it really really hard to up the limit to like 4 megs ?
11:56 < gmaxwell> My comment was basically that no one would find it a useful peace offering. I agree it's not so harmful (though perhaps more than you're thinking as it forstalls any fee market further, perhaps by years-- which makes running into a limit more scary and dangerous as time goes on)
11:57 < kanzure> when you mention fee markets i have generally assumed that you are talking about "making sure that things like fee estimation are actually happening" in terms of more local timespans and things like "paying for decentralized security" for longer timespans. but this might be a poor interpretation.
11:58 < btcdrak> warren: multiple sources, I would need to go digging. It was expressed on the mailing list a few times and hinted at again today by Yifu. Maybe I am embellishing a little, but they certainly were not happy about going over 8MB. Remember the discussions with f2pool's wangchen on the list?
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12:00 < btcdrak> gmaxwell: Yes, I thought the block failing was implicit in my text. I will clarify.
12:00 < btcdrak> gmaxwell: do you think a larger window than 2016 blocks?
12:01 < gmaxwell> I don't know that if its tidly solvable.
12:01 < gwillen> gmaxwell: I can't read the minds of gavin/mike/redditors but my intuition is that at least some people will be more pacified by an immediate bump even if it has no long-term consequence
12:02 < btcdrak> kanzure: Maybe I need to elaborate, I am referring to healthy competition for blockspace that will promote transaction fees necessary to replace blocksubsidy over time.
12:02 < gwillen> (and then at least that's one less thing people can tar the proposal with)
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12:03 < gmaxwell> gwillen: hm. that doesn't exactly comfort me (e.g. would they be immediately appeased because they believe that they can later argue that we're commited to make further bumps as jeff has? --- like how US has copyright with limited terms)
12:03 < gwillen> I think it's more emotional than that
12:04 < gwillen> plus, at least with the Reddit crowd and other ill-informed sorts, "Bigger blocks now" is what they're looking for, without thinking too hard about complex proposals
12:05 < btcdrak> gmaxwell: I dont think I am sufficiently qualified to make a technical judgement there, but my reading politically is the community wants to see some kind of commitment to extending size. I'm perfectly happy not to include an initial bump because once the hard fork took place, miners could take control of matters according to the algo.
12:06 < gmaxwell> btcdrak: well they can't because you also put the floor at 2mb.
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12:07 < btcdrak> It's a very rough idea, I just wanted to float it as a rough idea and see if it can be polished. the floor is means to be a maxsize = 2mb. If you feel suffiently strong about it I can remove the limits entirely.
12:07 < gmaxwell> so imagine, (I agree this is not the most likely case) that demand doesn't go above the current 500k level. This means miners will lack an in protocol mechenism to coordinate a lower size that results in fee pressure, and instead leaves the situation where a single miner can clear the market every time they find a block. :(
12:07 < btcdrak> you are right, I'll remove it. it's an unncessary talking point over the main concept of the proposal.
12:07 < gmaxwell> I wish hashtree membership proofs weren't so large with respect to N for small N.
12:08 < kanzure> ooh clearing the market is a neat side effect
12:08 < kanzure> or, direct effect
12:08 < gmaxwell> btcdrak: if you find a push that suggests adding it back, don't hesitate due ot me.
12:09 < gmaxwell> I wish hashtree membership proofs weren't so large with respect to N for small N.  Otherwise I'd love to have a proposal where miners commit to hashtress of the transactions they know, and then the winning block hash proportioanl selects a subset of the limited transactions in a fee weighted way, to become official.
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12:10 < btcdrak> gmaxwell: what about the upper limit, should I get rid of that too?
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12:12 < gmaxwell> there needs to be a software engineering target, otherwise that issue of having to privison for the worst case becomes intractable.
12:12 < gmaxwell> at 10%/2016 you can get into sizes that will overflow your integer types faster than many users upgrade software.
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12:15 < btcdrak> again 10% was just a random starting point to get things going. I am sure there is a scientific way to reach an ideal number.
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12:21 < gmaxwell> oh proportional right.
12:21 < gmaxwell> So proportional has a problem that even with isotropic fees, it's never a win to increase the size.
12:22 < gmaxwell> If you go work through the algebra you'll see that the decreae in chance of finding a block offsets the increased transaction count you can include.
12:22 < gmaxwell> Thats why my proposal suggestion was quadratic.
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12:44 < tromp_> btcdrak: isn't the cost to vote toward +10% negligible?
12:45 < btcdrak> there is no cost to vote down.
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12:45 < tromp_> roughly 90% of all blocks beat the difficulty target by at least 10%
12:46 < tromp_> that's a lot of free upvotes
12:48 < tromp_> potential upvotes to be precise
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13:36 < btcdrak> tromp_ what if we base the penalty as a percentage above a moving average of the last 144 blocks or whatever.
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13:39 < tromp_> then even if a miner likes to go +10%, i doubt she'lll refrain from publishing her solved blocks that are sub-avg difficulty.
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13:41 < tromp_> you can simplify your scheme to just 3 votes, -10%, 0, +10%
13:42 < tromp_> you can tweak your def. so that the +10% vote is only possible for some X% of blocks
13:43 < tromp_> X=90 appears far too generous
13:44 < kanzure> "Limits on fundamental limits to computation" http://arxiv.org/abs/1408.3821
13:45 < tromp_> but setting X=30 for instance is similar to allowing votes for -3%,0,+3% with no restriction on votes
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13:46 < tromp_> so your voting restriction looks like a unneccesary diversion
13:46 < kanzure> table 1 is neat
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15:45 < Taek> fwiw I'm also against an immediate increase to 2mb. At 500k blocks there is a lot of headroom for growth, and as we've seen infrastructure for dealing with a fee market won't be put in place until people are suffering for the lack of it
15:46 < Taek> similarly I'm against any sort of large 'jump' in the blocksize, as that would completely remove all fee pressure and give an unrealistic impression of how necessary fee-market infrastructure is
15:46 < Taek> if the block size is to have some way to increase, it should be in numerous small steps
15:48 < Taek> <tromp_> roughly 90% of all blocks beat the difficulty target by at least 10%
15:48 < Taek> <tromp_> that's a lot of free upvotes
15:48 < Taek> my understanding is that you need to commit to the increased target before mining
15:48 < Taek> which means you are definitely giving up a portion of your expected revenue
15:48 < Taek> no free votes there
15:49 < tromp_> miners are not gonna do that:)
15:50 < Taek> " ensures the mining community will collude to increase it only when there is a clear necessity"
15:50 < tromp_> also, there is no way i can see to make such a commitment
15:51 < Taek> you'd have to add a flag/field somewhere, probably in a txn
15:54 < tromp_> that's one hardfork just to enable voting on another hardfork. never gonna happen
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15:55 < Taek> at that time, the voting is a part of the protocol as much as the difficulty change is, it's no longer a hardfork to increase the size by then
15:55 < Taek> it's just 1 hardfork to add the new rules (correct me if I've misunderstood)
15:57 < tromp_> oh, the vote commit can be a soft-fork
15:58 < tromp_> but then instead of commit to increased difficulty, it would be simpler to vote by burning part of block reward?!
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15:58 < tromp_> if you want votes to have a real cost
16:04 < Taek> one thing that is bothering me about this proposal is that volume of txns and fees doesn't relate in any way to the strength of the infrastructure
16:04 < Taek> if Bitcoin can only safely tolerate 3mb blocks, $40 txn fees aren't going to change that
16:05 < kanzure> but who argued that it would change it?
16:06 < kanzure> or not who, but which argument
16:06 < phantomcircuit> Taek, there seems to be a huge amount of confusion around how fees work in relation to full nodes
16:06 < Taek> phantomcircut: confusion on my part, or in general?
16:06 < phantomcircuit> in general
16:07 < phantomcircuit> i've talked with a number of people who seemed to genuinely believe fees went to node operators
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16:07 < kanzure> perhaps they thought that only miners ran nodes (and that miners ran nodes at all)
16:07 < phantomcircuit> possibly
16:08 < phantomcircuit> either way the entire discussion is tainted by the widespread misunderstanding of fees
16:08 < kanzure> i am still trying to parse the argument that taek is trying to reply to
16:09 < kanzure> it would seem to be something like "high transaction fees indicate that the block size can be safely increased" but i don't think anyone has argued this
16:09 < kanzure> or rather, i haven't seen that argument (trying to not point fingers etc)
16:09 < Taek> kanzure: my understanding was that the proposal by btcdrak was to give a method for increasing the block size limit - which to me had an implicit argument that the limit should be based on the fee volume
16:09 < phantomcircuit> <tromp_> also, there is no way i can see to make such a commitment
16:09 < phantomcircuit> it's actually very easy to implement as a hardfork
16:10 < phantomcircuit> the flexcap proposal requires a hard fork to allow larger blocks anyways
16:10 < phantomcircuit> so that doesn't much matter
16:10 < kanzure> Taek: ah thanks
16:10 < phantomcircuit> you can also implement the entire thing as a soft fork with extension blocks
16:11 < phantomcircuit> out of all the proposals i believe extension blocks and/or flex cap are the only ones that actually make any sense
16:11 < kanzure> i have lost track- which is saying a lot. i think i have seen >50 proposals at this point.
16:11 < phantomcircuit> Taek, ah yes, that's very true
16:12 < phantomcircuit> fundamentally the issue is that the constraint on the blocksize limit is not something that can be reasonably derived from anything in the system
16:12 < phantomcircuit> it's the cost per compute time
16:12 < kanzure> i think i saw a flexcap and fee penalty or fee redistribution or reward redistribution proposal that didn't get completely demolished immediately
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16:13 < kanzure> phantomcircuit: go on
16:13 < phantomcircuit> kanzure, that's it really
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16:14 < Taek> the block size limit is necessary because of network constraints, and (assuming network constraints disappear) computing constraints
16:14 < phantomcircuit> the only way to track cost of compute time is to do a bunch of hard forks to change the limit as people agree the cost has gone down
16:14 < Taek> *node computing, not mining
16:14 < kanzure> "use an even lower max block size" could work for a goal like "keep this value as low as possible" as sort of a systemic axiom, but then you have to figure out why more than 1 byte or 100 kb
16:14 < phantomcircuit> which is super lame
16:14 < phantomcircuit> and almost certainly not a good plan
16:15 < phantomcircuit> fees give us a proxy for demand, but there is no proxy for what a reasonable supply size is
16:15 < phantomcircuit> and either way
16:15 < kanzure> someone was saying "i suspect the demand for blockchain capacity is practically infinite" and yes i would love to dump a few billion transactions into the blockchain per day thanks for asking
16:15 < Taek> I am okay with using limited projections. IE: we assume that network bandwidth will grow by 17% annually for at least 5 more years
16:15 < phantomcircuit> anything more than linear growth in block size will cause a growth in the total time to validate which exceeds moores law significantly
16:16 < phantomcircuit> bandwidth is a great example of this
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16:17 < phantomcircuit> if bandwidth is growing 17% annually then the total size of the blockchain should not grow more than 17% annually
16:18 < phantomcircuit> so the blocksize should be limited to 148kB
16:26 < phantomcircuit> 46 GB * 0.17 / 365.25 / 24 / 6 ~= 148kB
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16:42 < Taek> phantomcircut: where does 46GB come from?
16:43 < Taek> I don't know if it's been brought up recently, but I would be in favor of a soft-fork that eliminates the need for IBD for all blocks before height X
16:43 < Taek> for example, 250,000
16:44 < Taek> there would be an explicit utxo-set that you start with, and then you could never reorg beyond 250,000 blocks
16:44 < Taek> it's not subjective because 250,000 is a set number
16:45 < TD-Linux> Taek, 46GB is the total size of the blockchain currently
16:45 < belcher> is there a central page with all the anti-bitcoinxt arguments
16:45 < belcher> could be useful for linking, if not it may be worth creating one on the bitcoin wiki?
16:46 < Taek> belcher: I don't think so. Such a page would probably be seen as highly antagonistic and may not be beneficial to the politics of the situation
16:47 < belcher> naturally it would be antagonistic, but with all the misunderstandings floating around it might still be useful
16:47 < belcher> iv genuinly seen people on reddit who were not aware it was a matter of tradeoffs, and who were interested in learning more about the other side
16:47 < kanzure> "yes i wouldn't want to intrude on the rhetoric or anything"
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16:48 < Taek> belcher: there is this: http://rusty.ozlabs.org/?p=535
16:49 < kang_> belcher: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1154262.0
16:49 < Taek> if you want people to listen to you, you have to convince them  that you think they are intelligent and that you respect their existing opinions
16:50 < belcher> ty
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16:53 < warren> Hi, https://scalingbitcoin.org/montreal2015/ is trying to schedule the second workshop in Hong Kong around December 2015.  This is the event where actual block size proposals are to be presented and discussed.
16:55 < warren> One possible date proposed is December 6th-7th or Dec 13-14th... both of which conflict with Hanukkah.  I am not too familiar with Jewish holidays.  Does anyone know if this would make it difficult for Jewish researchers to attend the event?
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17:05 < amiller> hey, warren, are you expecting lots of academic researcher types to show up?
17:05 < warren> amiller: yes
17:05 < amiller> i think that's an awesome goal and the resaerch presentation stipend seems pretty cool, but i wonder how anyone is going to know about it, the first one was sort of short notice and i can't tell if it went out to any relevant channels
17:06 < amiller> i'm concerned that mit-dci isn't doing much to reach out to interested academic groups
17:06 < warren> yes
17:09 < warren> sorry on a call now, will be back soon
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17:47 < warren> amiller: Jeremy Rubin at MIT is working extremely hard on outreach, but he's only one guy.  It's positive that he at least got funding.
17:48 < warren> amiller: Pindar Wong (chair of the workshop planning committee) got Harvard, HKUST and Princeton onboard in some capacity, details coming soon.
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18:07 < Luke-Jr> belcher: altcoins are off-topic on the wiki; although their is a page for block size discussions that aims to be neutral
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18:09 < belcher> ok, so this would have to be off that wiki since i imagined it to be non-neutral point of view
18:09 < belcher> maybe a github page
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18:11 < Luke-Jr> belcher: what's the value in something explicitly non-neutral?
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18:14 < belcher> Luke-Jr to convince, persuade, educate
18:15 < belcher> im thinking of those "faq" type sites that were on the internet in the 90s
18:15 < Luke-Jr> neutral resources can do that…
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18:15 < Luke-Jr> in any case, I see no reason the wiki can't have another page
18:17 < belcher> what do you mean? i thought the problem was it would be off-topic
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18:21 < maaku> amiller: is there a financial crypto list? has the workshop been advertised there?
18:22 < amiller> maaku, no but you should email the organizers, i bet they would know some places to forward it
18:23 < maaku> warren: ^^
18:23 < maaku> also may be on topic for the cypherpunks list
18:23 < amiller> warren, who did you talk to at princeton? there is a bitcoin-research mailing list i think arvind runs that doesn't get a lot of traffic
18:28 < warren> amiller: we need help from folks like you to help spread the word, you have entirely different networks than me
18:28 < warren> amiller: btw, are you coming?  presenting?
18:29 < amiller> i haven't worked out if i can yet, it's the last week of my internship
18:29 < amiller> i have stuff i want to present though for sure
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18:32 < warren> amiller: please submit the subsidy@ application (on the website) soon if you want your travel/hotel covered
18:34 < maaku> amiller: your "research perspectives and challenges" paper covers a lot of bases
18:36 < amiller> i want to present on simulators https://eprint.iacr.org/2015/469 and measurement http://cs.umd.edu/projects/coinscope/ as its newish and hopefully can be helpful starting points to support debates
18:36 < amiller> but i'm still waiting to find out if i can go
18:37 < amiller> regardless i'll try to help get the workshop publicised wherever i can find out
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18:41 < maaku> simulators and measurements are even better!
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18:42 < phantomcircuit> amiller, actual measured time to complete validation from genesis block (no checkpoints)
18:42 < phantomcircuit> https://i.imgur.com/rvcOM5U.png
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--- Log closed Sat Aug 22 00:00:48 2015