--- Log opened Sun Aug 23 00:00:49 2015
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01:57 < nsh> what is the minimum requirements given current knowledge of ZKP and secure multiparty computation to implement say a two-player public coin rock-paper-scissors game with no cheating and stake, sans trusted third party?
01:58 < nsh> assuming for a moment that there are no blockchains being tended
01:59 < gmaxwell> without stake I think that is impossible.
02:00 < gmaxwell> One player always has at least a one bit knoweldge advantage and can quit the protocol if he sees he's going to lose.
02:00 < nsh> right
02:01 < nsh> i'm trying to figure the minimum requirements for staking without a trusted adjudicating party
02:02 < nsh> all the practical protocols i can see are blockchain dependent, but is there some more skeletal DMMS scheme that would achieve the same ends
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02:15 < kang_> nsh: it is impossible given the current algorithms
02:15 < nsh> can you elaborate?
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02:17 < kang_> Except the blockchain, there is no method where two parties can exchange private keys without trusting each other. Because, like gmaxwell said, somebody has to go first and that means advantage.
02:19 < gmaxwell> kang_: thats stated a bit absolutely. e.g. timelock encryption bypasses this issue.
02:19 < kang_> You can consider a state of rock-paper-scissor as a private key . Now they need to exchange it with each other but noone should be able to see results before others.
02:19 < kang_> gmaxwell: Yes, blockchain is the first algorithm I know which enables this
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02:20 < gmaxwell> 'blockchain' and timelock encryption are completely different things;  ...  and timelock encryption of varrious (not awesome) times has existed for a long time (I think since the 70s)
02:21 < gmaxwell> kang_: even the invocation blockchain does not solve it without a stake; which is what nsh asked about.
02:24  * nsh nods
02:25 < fluffypony> go1111111: Christ Belcher, the guy from JoinMarket
02:27 < kang_> A 3of3 bitcoin address where a thirdparty exchange holds a key. Same with a litecoin address. Now when the exchange sees that balance has reached both the addresses, & both parties agree they have each other's keys, it gives away its keys to respective parties.
02:27 < go1111111> fluffypony: thanks
02:32 < kang_> Is  there an algo prior to blockchains, where you could give me your private key & I become its new owner with certainity that you can't use it anymore? Even the blockchain doesnt do this, but achieves this, by you announcing to the world that you transfer all the rights held by your private key to mine.
02:36 < kang_> The blockchain also achieves this through other methods, eg sidechains
02:37 < nsh> asset ownership by transferable signing rights predates bitcoin
02:38 < kang_> nsh: how? If so, lets use it to send my bitcoin private key to you so as to solve the scalability problem.
02:38 < nsh> feel free to solve all your problems by sending me bitcoin privkeys ;)
02:39 < kang_> Ya, but I'll have a copy. That's the whole issue. You cant be sure they belong to you & you only.
02:42 < fluffypony> key revocation
02:42 < nsh> it's only an issue until one of use shuffles the inputs to new addresses
02:42 < nsh> revocation is basically a transaction in bitcoin
02:44 < kang_> "<nsh> asset ownership by transferable signing rights predates bitcoin" Give me an algo, not using blockchains, where you will assert ownership to my key.
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09:19 < ebfull> what is the latest design draft of the lightning network?
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09:49 < kanzure> .wik siphash
09:49 < yoleaux> "SipHash is an Add-Rotate-Xor (ARX) based family of pseudorandom functions created by Jean-Philippe Aumasson and Daniel J. Bernstein in 2012." — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SipHash
09:50 < kanzure> https://hg.python.org/cpython/rev/adb471b9cba1
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10:44 < tromp_> belcher is https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=321816
10:45 < belcher> ?
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10:47 < belcher> tromp_ ?
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10:48 < tromp_> go1111111 was asking how to contact you
10:50 < belcher> belcher@riseup.net or this irc, or twitter, or forum pm
10:53 < go1111111> thanks tromp_, already contacted him via reddit
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13:52 < Luke-Jr> am I missing something, or is this totally bogus? http://ncomputers.org/projects/random/normal.cpp
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13:58 < CodeShark> Looks like it spawns a thread that eats cpu performing simple linear transformations on global vars, then peeks into the global vars in the initial thread.
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14:00 < CodeShark> doesn't seem like anything you'd ever want to do - the algorithm sucks and the implementation sucks
14:03 < CodeShark> I should say affine rather than linear to be accurate
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14:04 < CodeShark> Either way, seems highly dependent on your CPUs and your system task scheduler...and eats up CPU without really providing a good system-independent entropy source
14:04 < CodeShark> But perhaps I'm misreading it :p
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14:23 < CodeShark> If it were two slightly detuned oscillators with the frequency difference depending on some external entropy (i.e. thermal noise) and sampled periodically, it could make sense. But two cpus subject to your system's task scheduler? hmmm
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14:28 < TD-Linux> Luke-Jr, yeah depending on your scheduler, that may be 100% deterministic
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15:32 < leakypat> Anyone know if anyone is pursuing using this as a testing platform? https://www.planet-lab.org/
15:33 < leakypat> Seems like we could use it to get real data on blocksizes
15:34 < leakypat> Or build a platform for repeatable experiments on top of it
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16:09 < amiller> leakypat, i know about planet lab but i don't think there are any bitcoin experiments on it
16:11 < leakypat> amiller: there was some discussion here https://forum.blockstack.org/t/proposal-for-real-world-testing-of-bitcoin-xt/162/8
16:21 < kanzure> hmm "Adding some more background to why I think simulations are harmful. I actually used to do a lot of research work with simulations. Model a network topology, introduce latency (just like Gavin is doing in the simulator), and so on. We, and by we I mean the entire research community working on wireless networks of embedded devices, learned the hard way that our simulations were basically meaningless. A protocol that worked in a ...
16:21 < kanzure> ... simulator wouldn't work in real-life. That's one of the main reasons why PlanetLab exists and why it got the SIGCOMM test of time award. In the past 10+ years basically any significant real networked system developed by research labs / universities was deployed and tested on PlanetLab. It is a 1000x better than doing simulations."
16:21 < kanzure> didn't know that this is what planetlab was
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16:38 < leakypat> I am going to look into it more and also see if anyone is seriously pursuing this, it could be a good platform for generating repeatable test data and then opening up the results for everyone to analyze
16:38 < leakypat> Or having some system to reserve time on their network etc.
16:39 < amiller> so i spent a lot of time working on a simulator that was recently presented
16:39 < amiller> but, we unfortunately never got to the point that it looks like a realistic model for anything
16:39 < amiller> that would still take a lot more work
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16:40 < amiller> our effort was spent on getting the technical stuff to work, where you can run the real bitcoin source code rahter htan some made up code you hope is accurate, and run it pretty scalably on a big server or small cluster
16:41 < amiller> maybe we could try to figure out the latency between nodes in the network, and account for the pool nodes and the miner relay backbone and all the other stuff, but that would be a lot more work
16:41 < leakypat> So planet lab is not a simulator if i understand correctly , it would be as if we deployed a parallel network of nodes across the globe and could measure the performance
16:41 < amiller> yeah, as i understand it you have to apply and get permission to use those resources, it's basically adminstered by a league of university folks
16:41 < leakypat> ie get all metrics for any node and the relevant network data
16:41 < amiller> they have some kind of limited resource per node so i'm not even sure if you can install Bitcoin-core on what you get
16:42 < leakypat> I wonder if their platform is open source
16:42 < amiller> espeically if you wanted 40gb per node
16:42 < amiller> to dl the whole blockchain
16:42 < leakypat> Yep, but we might be able to fund something similar
16:43 < leakypat> Also I could imagine using pseudo nodes and isolating things like block relay under 100s of different conditions etc
16:44 < leakypat> Simulating a selfish miner attack
16:44 < leakypat> Running with Tor/ without Tor
16:44 < leakypat> For arrays of block sizes then analyzing  the regional data
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16:45 < leakypat> That wouldn't use so much of their resources
16:45 < leakypat> No need for full blockchain dl (although that would be a another good metric)
16:46 < leakypat> For example here are the repeatable tests for bip101
16:46 < leakypat> https://github.com/gavinandresen/bitcoin-git/blob/megablocks/megablocks_notes.txt
16:47 < leakypat> Just a personal testing diary basically
16:47 < leakypat> No process
16:48 < leakypat> For any of the proposed BIPs would need much more exhaustive data and testing plus analysis of data by multiple parties/ verification of tests etc
16:50 < amiller> it would be great if planet lab was an open platform
16:50 < amiller> like an open distributed EC2 sort of thing where the resources are administered by whoever you choose
16:51 < leakypat> Ok, well il ask around and I might get in contact with them, I am tempted to drop what I am working on and pursue this, as it seems to me to be one of the most important things to have
16:51 < amiller> there are at least two bitcoin research projects on planetlab https://www.planet-lab.org/db/pub/slices.php
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16:52 < amiller> hm, one of them is this spade project, this looks interesting, it's in active development https://github.com/ashish-gehani/spade
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18:51 < leakypat> Reading the architecture documents for planet lab, it seems custom designed for Bitcoin testing
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18:52 < leakypat> https://www.planet-lab.org/files/pdn/PDN-06-031/pdn-06-031.pdf
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20:20 < ebfull> i still have a lot to learn about the lightning network
20:20 < ebfull> how do fees on the blockchain relate to the usefulness/viability of lightning for users?
20:23 < ebfull> that is, would lightning still work even if fees on the blockchain were too high for most transactions?
20:24 < rusty> ebfull: well, high blockchain fees mean high setup cost for LN.  So low fees are better for adoption.
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20:38 < kanzure> rusty: there might be a trustless way to setup a high-fee channel in that situation, possibly like m-of-n with multiple parties owning the hub or something...
20:38 < kanzure> i mean a channel that has to pay high fees
20:39 < rusty> kanzure: that sounds like a complete breakdown of decentralization of LN.  We want lots of channels, which means cheap bitcoin txs.
20:41 < kanzure> huh? so you are against n-party channel setup?
20:41 < kanzure> or.. er.. i know it is possible for your position to be more nuanced, but i'm still having trouble interpreting it anyway.
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20:44 < rusty> kanzure: perhaps I misunderstand.  It may be possible to have a multiparty node; I've not thought about it.  I don't think it helps much for decentralization of the network, does it?
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20:55 < Luke-Jr> rusty: I assume new users (who have no bitcoins) can setup LN without touching the blockchain at all?
20:56 < rusty> Luke-Jr: only if they can find a node to front them funds, so no...
20:56 < Luke-Jr> well, I'm assuming to get funds, they'd receive them via LN - not sufficient?
20:59 < rusty> Luke-Jr: not at a base level: to connect to LN requires an anchor tx.
21:00 < rusty> Luke-Jr: it's quite possible to set up a service which (for a fee) will allow someone to connect to the LN.  You send to this service and nominate them, and it funds their setup.
21:01 < rusty> Luke-Jr: hmm, you can even make this trustless... I think.... let me get a coffee and see if I have just completely reversed my answer :)
21:01 < Luke-Jr> ;)
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21:09 < rusty> Luke-Jr: yes, I think it makes a lot of sense.  It needs a long transaction though, because normal lightning tx HTLCS would be expected to resolved in a few seconds, this would take ~1 hour (assuming both sides are happy with 6 block deep for the anchor tx).
21:10 < rusty> Luke-Jr: and that trustless system requires the recipient to be online.  The trusted one doesn't, which may be an advantage.
21:21 < KFl6WxEUI1Zbp2> rusty use of LN is predicated on users having UTXO, getting UTXO might take longer than 6 blocks
21:21 < KFl6WxEUI1Zbp2> in the distant future
21:22 < rusty> KFl6WxEUI1Zbp2: is SPV LB impossible?  I haven't thought about it hard....
21:22 < rusty> s/LB/LN/
21:23 < KFl6WxEUI1Zbp2> rusty unsure
21:24 < KFl6WxEUI1Zbp2> rusty I'm thinking about how to keep bitcoin as decentralized as possible while allowing users access to UTXO.
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21:24 < KFl6WxEUI1Zbp2> UTXO distribution to new users is a big bottle neck, even bigger than users transactions
21:25 < KFl6WxEUI1Zbp2> Must be achieved for LN success
21:26 < rusty> KFl6WxEUI1Zbp2: utxo set commitment is an old idea, but AFAICT nobody has an implementation.  petertodd had something, don't know what the state is...
21:26 < KFl6WxEUI1Zbp2> yep
21:27 < rusty> KFl6WxEUI1Zbp2: what makes you think complete UTXO set is a requirement?  I mean, it's nice, but we can get a pretty long way with exhaustive fraud proofs (though then you're worrying about sybil attacks).
21:29 < rusty> KFl6WxEUI1Zbp2: (which implies UTXO commitments or a backref scheme a-la pettycoin, but doesn't mean you need them all yourself).
21:32 < KFl6WxEUI1Zbp2> rusty maybe my knowledge of LN incomplete.  Users need UTXO to generate HTLC, no?
21:33 < KFl6WxEUI1Zbp2> rusty other ways of generating HTLC w/o UTXO?
21:33 < rusty> No, they only need the commitment tx, for which all ingredients are handed to them.  They need to (1) be sure the anchor tx is valid and deep enough, and (2) watch for any unexpected spends of it.
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21:53 < kang__> All the DMMSs are DMMSs on the genesis block right? So in a way we can say Satoshi spend 21m-50 coins to build a network to secure those first 50. If we tweak these values, are there any examples of fast lived cheap blockchains?
21:54 < kang__> By fast lived, I mean where block reward approaches zero pretty quickly(days/weeks). Any such experiments?
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