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ZZZzzz…] 03:30 -!- GGuyZ [~GGuyZ@216-15-123-91.c3-0.sbo-ubr1.sbo.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:38 -!- hearn [~mike@178.197.231.213] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:50 -!- chester` [~GERwhitey@c-66-229-113-117.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [] 03:50 -!- TheDarkLord [~thedarklo@ip-62-235-34-186.dial.scarlet.be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:53 < fluffypony> moa: socially contracted diseases? 03:53 < fluffypony> :-P 03:54 < fluffypony> kanzure: I agree re: Moore's non-law, but I also think that there's a lack of understanding that the limit is influenced more by Internet bandwidth limitations and monthly bandwidth caps than by disk space 03:55 < fluffypony> and since there has been a regression in parts of the USA, for instance, where bandwidth caps are "suddenly" a thing, I don't think it can be argued that everyone will magically have unlimited bandwidth all over the world in the next N years 03:57 -!- TheDarkLord [~thedarklo@ip-62-235-34-186.dial.scarlet.be] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:57 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:01 -!- GGuyZ [~GGuyZ@216-15-123-91.c3-0.sbo-ubr1.sbo.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: GGuyZ] 04:01 < wumpus> fluffypony: 100% agree. Even if moore's law would hold indefinitely for, say, CPU speeds (which is unlikely), there is no worldwide exponential law of bandwidth increase. Geographical concerns are notoriously ugly. 04:02 < fluffypony> I think all the people that don't understand that should come stay with me in South Africa for a month, they'll go back with a changed mind 04:02 -!- NLNico [~NLNico@unaffiliated/nlnico] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:09 < moa> it would be great if bandwidth could be incentivised like a sha256(sha256()) such that people would develop whole new ASICs and fab ines to improve 04:09 < moa> .... but alas. 04:15 -!- NLNico [~NLNico@unaffiliated/nlnico] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:15 < phantomcircuit> fluffypony, bandwidth, cpu time, memory, memory bandwidth, hdd space, hdd access times 04:15 < phantomcircuit> all limit total size in various ways 04:15 < c0rw1n> fluffypony: Google is kinda Doing Something About That isn't it 04:16 -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:16 < fluffypony> phantomcircuit: yeah, but as far as I've ascertained, bandwidth is the biggest limiter atm 04:17 < fluffypony> c0rw1n: well so is Facebook with their big flying wing thing, but neither of those will have any major deployment / impact in the next while 04:17 < fluffypony> and I'm not convinced that they won't heavily restrict data access with them 04:18 < c0rw1n> lol. of course they won't, that would be completely counterproductive to what they're doing 04:18 < fluffypony> yup 04:19 -!- King_Rex [~King_Rex@61.sub-70-193-69.myvzw.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:19 < fluffypony> but hey, if we can have a Facebook Messaging gossip layer... 04:20 < c0rw1n> if it was like ebay or amzn, they would have an incentive to restrict data to each other; FB ont he other hand, /wants to know which other sites everyone's visiting/ 04:20 < c0rw1n> and google is a search engine, so restricting access is diametrically opposed to its basic functionality 04:23 < phantomcircuit> btw you two are disagreeing 04:23 < fluffypony> yes 04:24 < fluffypony> c0rw1n: I'm saying they *will* restrict it 04:24 < fluffypony> either in terms of capacity or fair usage or something 04:24 < fluffypony> not necessarily in terms of "what you can access" 04:26 -!- c0rw1n_ [~c0rw1n@186.79-67-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:26 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:26 -!- StormDev [~StormDev@misys-gw2.tcr2.th2.par.cust.as8218.eu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:27 -!- c0rw1n [~c0rw1n@186.79-67-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:27 < c0rw1n_> ( sorry, shitty wifi hub temporarily died ) 04:28 -!- c0rw1n_ is now known as c0rw1n 04:29 < fluffypony> np 04:34 < StormDev> guys where I can find a channel about bitcoin related applications development? 04:35 < fluffypony> StormDev: #bitcoin or #bitcoin-dev should both be able to help with integration questions 04:36 < StormDev> ty Wizard 04:38 < phantomcircuit> fluffypony, lol 04:38 < phantomcircuit> ( sorry, shitty wifi hub temporarily died ) 04:38 < phantomcircuit> lol 04:38 < fluffypony> oh the irony! 04:40 < c0rw1n> bah, that specific fail wouldn't be solved by switching isps (even to google), it's in my home network 04:41 -!- Casper- [~Casper@linux-cryptofree2-a.xn--cdaan2d.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:46 -!- moa [~kiwigb@opentransactions/dev/moa] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:46 -!- Casper- [~Casper@linux-cryptofree2-a.xn--cdaan2d.be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:48 -!- Johnny-- [~Casper@linux-cryptofree2-a.xn--cdaan2d.be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:48 -!- kang_ [67efeb5b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.103.239.235.91] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:49 -!- Casper- [~Casper@linux-cryptofree2-a.xn--cdaan2d.be] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:49 -!- Johnny-- [~Casper@linux-cryptofree2-a.xn--cdaan2d.be] has quit [Client Quit] 04:49 -!- StormDev [~StormDev@misys-gw2.tcr2.th2.par.cust.as8218.eu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:49 -!- StormDev [~StormDev@misys-gw2.tcr2.th2.par.cust.as8218.eu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:50 -!- Casper- [~Casper@linux-cryptofree2-a.xn--cdaan2d.be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:54 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r167-56-17-242.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:01 -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@56-197-ftth.onsbrabantnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:10 -!- tripleslash_l is now known as [\\\] 05:15 -!- hearn_ [~mike@178.197.231.81] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:18 -!- hearn [~mike@178.197.231.213] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 05:26 -!- hearn_ [~mike@178.197.231.81] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…] 11:26 -!- ASTP001 [~ASTP001@50-78-139-78-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:29 -!- hearn [~mike@84-75-197-78.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:36 -!- GGuyZ [~GGuyZ@216-15-123-91.c3-0.sbo-ubr1.sbo.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: GGuyZ] 11:40 -!- CodeShark [~CodeShark@cpe-76-167-237-202.san.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:40 -!- Dizzle_ [~Dizzle@104-6-36-162.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:48 -!- Quanttek [~quassel@ip1f11db5b.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:58 -!- sparetire_ [~sparetire@unaffiliated/sparetire] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:58 -!- sparetire [~sparetire@unaffiliated/sparetire] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:00 -!- chmod755 [~chmod755@unaffiliated/chmod755] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:01 -!- TheDarkLord [~thedarklo@ip-62-235-34-186.dial.scarlet.be] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:03 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:04 -!- sparetire_ [~sparetire@unaffiliated/sparetire] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:05 -!- mjerr [~mjerr@p578EB313.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:06 -!- sparetire [~sparetire@unaffiliated/sparetire] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:17 -!- zooko [~user@c-73-217-96-13.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:21 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r167-56-157-199.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:23 -!- bedeho [~bedeho@50-202-37-133-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:24 -!- bedeho [~bedeho@50-202-37-133-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:25 < MRL-Relay> [shen] fluffypony, you shouldn't discourage people from using brain wallet - how else am I going to get some ethereum 12:27 -!- nwilcox [~nwilcox@74-95-207-205-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:29 -!- bedeho [~bedeho@50-202-37-133-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:30 < fluffypony> lol 12:31 -!- rustyn [~rustyn@unaffiliated/rustyn] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:33 -!- bedeho [~bedeho@50-202-37-133-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:57 -!- zooko [~user@c-73-217-96-13.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:04 -!- GGuyZ [~GGuyZ@216-15-123-91.c3-0.sbo-ubr1.sbo.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:09 -!- GAit [~GAit@2-230-161-158.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:17 -!- GGuyZ [~GGuyZ@216-15-123-91.c3-0.sbo-ubr1.sbo.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: GGuyZ] 13:21 -!- ASTP001 [~ASTP001@50-78-139-78-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 13:24 -!- ratbanebo [~ratbanebo@78-23-10-185.access.telenet.be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:25 -!- GGuyZ [~GGuyZ@50.247.238.161] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:28 -!- b_lumenkraft [~b_lumenkr@unaffiliated/b-lumenkraft/x-4457406] has quit [Quit: b_lumenkraft] 13:28 -!- GGuyZ [~GGuyZ@50.247.238.161] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:28 -!- GGuyZ [~GGuyZ@50.247.238.161] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:29 -!- nwilcox [~nwilcox@50-1-85-32.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:34 -!- ASTP001 [~ASTP001@50-78-139-78-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:34 -!- belcher [~user@unaffiliated/belcher] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:38 -!- nwilcox [~nwilcox@50-1-85-32.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:39 -!- nwilcox [~nwilcox@50-1-85-32.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:40 < ratbanebo> hello wizards, anyone has a forecast for me? 13:43 < merlincorey> not really what this channel is for 13:44 < merlincorey> I'm just waiting for the block size thing to get figured out, but I know gmaxwell is pretty against it 13:44 < merlincorey> it's interesting that some people are moving forward though 13:44 < ratbanebo> hm 13:45 < ratbanebo> what is it for then? 13:46 < merlincorey> This channel is is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development 13:47 < ratbanebo> merlincorey: okay, excuse me. is there some kind of channel that provides short-term stuff please? 13:49 < merlincorey> maybe try ##bitcoin or #bitcoin or whatever it is 13:49 < chmod755> ratbanebo, are you looking for price discussion? that's what #bitcoin-pricetalk is for 13:49 -!- Burrito [~Burrito@unaffiliated/burrito] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:49 -!- nwilcox [~nwilcox@50-1-85-32.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:50 -!- nwilcox [~nwilcox@50-1-85-32.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:50 -!- hazirafel [~hazirafel@31.154.91.121] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:51 < ratbanebo> yes, thanks guys. 13:53 -!- Luke-Jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:00 -!- Luke-Jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:05 -!- ASTP001 [~ASTP001@50-78-139-78-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…] 14:12 -!- dc17523be3 [unknown@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-rohpfztzimhoxqzf] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:13 -!- nwilcox [~nwilcox@50-1-85-32.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Client Quit] 14:13 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:14 -!- zooko [~user@c-24-9-63-159.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:17 -!- zooko` [~user@c-24-9-63-159.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:20 -!- zooko [~user@c-24-9-63-159.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:22 -!- zooko` is now known as zooko 14:22 -!- lemonpepper24 [~lemonpepp@104.156.228.139] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:23 -!- nwilcox [~nwilcox@99-121-56-190.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:23 -!- jaekwon [~jaekwon@75-101-96-71.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:32 < fluffypony> so the BCN scammers put out a pair of reasonably good articles 14:32 < fluffypony> https://bytecoin.org/blog/proof-of-stake-proof-of-work-comparison/ 14:32 < fluffypony> https://bytecoin.org/blog/proof-of-activity-proof-of-burn-proof-of-capacity/ 14:33 < fluffypony> "This is a guest post by Ray Patterson" - would love to know who that is, but meh 14:33 < ryan-c> fluffypony: yeah, wtf 14:33 < fluffypony> still a reasonable overview for those interested in alternative proof systems, hey lmatteis maybe you'll enjoy a reading 14:33 < fluffypony> ryan-c: I can't tell if he's throwing a tantrum or what 14:34 < lmatteis> fluffypony: thanks i'll have a look! 14:34 < ryan-c> speaking of brainwallets 14:36 < ryan-c> I added warpwallet support to brainflayer (have not released it, don't ask me to) and actually found one with a couple dollars in it. Just enough that I can't tell whether someone put it there as bait or thought it was actually secure. 14:37 < gmaxwell> bleh. 14:37 -!- gill3s [~gill3s@pat35-3-82-245-143-153.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 14:37 < gmaxwell> yea, see. 14:37 < gmaxwell> fluffypony: more fake names? 14:38 < fluffypony> gmaxwell: definitely 14:38 < fluffypony> can't find a relevant Ray Patterson 14:38 < gmaxwell> Af FC15 andytoshi changed his badge to say "Nicolas Von Saberhagen II" 14:38 < gmaxwell> :P 14:39 < fluffypony> hah hah awesome 14:39 < gmaxwell> ryan-c: Brainwallets are unsafe at any speed, pretty much. :( 14:40 < fluffypony> ryan-c: read an interesting article the other day that REALLY highlighted (to me) just how crappy human entropy is 14:40 < fluffypony> let me get you linkage 14:41 < ryan-c> gmaxwell: Yeah. Diceware keeps the crackers at bay, but then the user is more likely to forget... 14:41 < gmaxwell> yea, there is a nice paper by the author of the really good markov stuff in jtr that talks about how key memorability and key predictability are linked. 14:42 < gmaxwell> also a lot of people just don't get what value the dice provide. "I can be random". "spatula spatula spatula" 14:42 < fluffypony> ryan-c: http://arstechnica.com/security/2015/08/new-data-uncovers-the-surprising-predictability-of-android-lock-patterns/ 14:42 < ryan-c> gmaxwell: Also, I added a raw private key input mode to the thing. That was interesting to play with. 14:42 < gwillen> gmaxwell: I read an interesting idea near the brainwallet space recently, which I have never heard before 14:42 < andytoshi> saberhagen badge is at http://imgur.com/VGL7MFb (i still have it :P) 14:42 < fluffypony> andytoshi: that is awesome 14:42 < gwillen> gmaxwell: which is to keep some of the entropy on disk, but not too much to search through, so that as long as you have the file, you can open the wallet in 1-5 seconds, but without it your search time is, say, 24 hours 14:43 < zooko> gwillen: do tell. 14:43 < zooko> fluffypony: I disagree with the "suprising" in that headline. 14:43 < gmaxwell> andytoshi: hah were you carrying thta with you? I have about 0.5 cubic feet of speaker badges in a box. :) 14:43 < zooko> gwillen: neat. 14:43 < gwillen> so you get the benefit of "if you lose the file you don't lose the coins" but you are protected from having your password cracked (at relatively low entropy) by people who don't have it 14:43 < gmaxwell> I keep thinking someday I'll make a really big badge out of other badges. 14:43 < zooko> gwillen: thanks for sharing that idea. 14:43 < ryan-c> andytoshi: i was expecting a chaos camp badge 14:43 < andytoshi> gmaxwell: :P it's in a box with things like foreign bus passes etc "souvenirs" 14:44 < gmaxwell> gwillen: I proposed that for bitcoin core in 2011. 14:44 < gwillen> zooko: I thought it was neat too, I think I saw someone toss it out in a reddit comment and I wish I'd recorded who 14:44 < zooko> lol 14:44 < gwillen> gmaxwell: oh, neat. 14:44 < Adlai> humans are as bad at generating entropy as they are good at mnemonic pegging 14:44 < gmaxwell> Two stage, KDF, e.g. a 100ms one for runtime and a multi minute one if you lose the runtime data. 14:44 < ryan-c> gmaxwell: link? I had the same idea independently. 14:44 < ryan-c> gmaxwell: it's a great idea 14:44 < gwillen> gmaxwell: *nods* 14:44 < gmaxwell> I think it's intutive enough. 14:44 < andytoshi> now that i look, there are a bunch of badges in there.. 14:45 < gmaxwell> but even multiple minute kdf doesn't really make "brainwallets" actually safe. 14:45 < ryan-c> I should take a photo of my wall of hacker con badges 14:45 < CodeShark> perhaps with clever steganography brainwallets can be made practical 14:45 < ryan-c> gmaxwell: you can dramatically reduce the passphrase entropy requirements, though 14:45 < CodeShark> i.e. remember the URLs to 10 different arbitrary files 14:45 < gwillen> one thing that's sticky about it is that you need the work factor difference to be REALLY BIG 14:45 -!- GGuyZ [~GGuyZ@50.247.238.161] has quit [Quit: GGuyZ] 14:46 < gwillen> a single added word to a passphrase gives you 12+ bits of additional entropy 14:46 < gwillen> which would of course require a factor of 4096+ in added work to compete with 14:46 < fluffypony> CodeShark: that's not a brainwallet 14:46 < fluffypony> if I give a user 13 words that's a mnemonic 14:46 < Adlai> 'phrasewallet' 14:46 < fluffypony> if a users gives me 13 words that's a brainwallet and I guarantee their decision will be shitty 14:46 < gmaxwell> ryan-c: I did tell you that I have a scheme for information theoretically secure threshold delegation. E.g. where the hardend value of your key is something you can only compute with the aid of a threshold of of oracles, but the oracles learn nothing about your key through their participation? 14:47 < ryan-c> I generally say a kdf can add about 20 bits of effective entropy, but if you're willing to have a partial loss case that involves the better part of the day brute forcing some random component to recover from you could maybe get as high as 32 bits added 14:47 < CodeShark> well, right - it's not technically a brainwallet in the sense that the data the user needs to remember is insufficient...you also need files on a network 14:47 < fluffypony> CodeShark: no you don't 14:47 < gmaxwell> (as a compliment to adam's scheme for information theoretically secure delegatable computational hardening) 14:47 < ryan-c> gmaxwell: no, but it doesn't surprise me that such a thing exists. 14:47 < fluffypony> CodeShark: you literally just need those 13 words 14:47 < gwillen> ryan-c: that seems pretty reasonable -- I think you can squeeze a bit more out, but that's pretty close to the limit 14:47 < gmaxwell> ryan-c: it was really hard to come up with, in fact. :) it requires pairing crypto. :) 14:47 < fluffypony> CodeShark: the difference is ONLY in the source of entropy 14:47 < CodeShark> yes, I'm well aware of how that works, fluffypony 14:47 < ryan-c> i actually wrote a file encryption program that does threshold crypto 14:47 < ryan-c> gmaxwell: pairing crypto is pretty cool 14:48 < ryan-c> gmaxwell: I think we previously spoke about using BLS to make a something that's essentially a hash algorithm that proves the generator has some plaintext that results in that value. 14:49 < gmaxwell> right the cryptographic p2sh^2 stuff. 14:49 < fluffypony> CodeShark: you literally just said that it's "not technically a brainwallet" because you "also need files on a network", which is completely incorrect. using a 1626 word wordlist you can generate a 128-bit key with 12 words + a checksum word for good measure. 14:49 < ryan-c> https://github.com/ryancdotorg/threshcrypt (used someone else's shamir secret sharing lib) 14:50 < gmaxwell> ryan-c: hope you audited it, two years ago I went through things on github that claimed to be shamir secret sharing and most of them weren't, I wrote to authors and got many of them taken down. :)) 14:50 < fluffypony> ryan-c: I'm un-pleasantly surprised at the rare use of SSSS in Bitcoin 14:50 < fluffypony> sad 14:50 < ryan-c> gmaxwell: I looked at the code, it seemed reasonable. It was libgfshare. 14:51 < gmaxwell> okay that one was okay IIRC. 14:51 < ryan-c> gmaxwell: I have an unreleased varient of libgfshare that uses 16 bit symbols instead of 8 bit 14:51 < gmaxwell> fluffypony: I am very plesently surprised. 14:51 < gmaxwell> Most of the time SSS provides only pretextual security against the kind of threat models we normally deal with. 14:52 < gmaxwell> There are quite a few businesses where if you talk about their security process they brag about using SSS and then fall all overthemselves when you ask a probing question about what that actually protects. 14:52 < fluffypony> I like it for storing my seed in multiple locations, and being able to handle "my stuff burnt in a fire" with multiple locations going 14:52 < fluffypony> but yeah 14:52 < fluffypony> I take your point 14:52 < TD-Linux> oh neat, warpwallet uses scrypt, which there are already GPU accelerated versions of! thanks litecoin! 14:52 < ryan-c> gmaxwell: my program was motivated by "hit by a bus" type stuff 14:52 < ryan-c> TD-Linux: No, there aren't. 14:52 < ryan-c> TD-Linux: All scrypt is not equal. 14:53 -!- zooko [~user@c-24-9-63-159.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:53 < gmaxwell> fluffypony: sure though in that case you can usually achieve _nearly_ the same security using just copies and a memorized simple passphrase. The marginal improvement of the SSS is usually pretty moderate, esp relative to the ritual complexity. 14:53 < ryan-c> TD-Linux: the scrypt parametrization used by warpwallet requires 2048 times as much memory (256MiB) as the what's used in litecoin. 14:54 < ryan-c> gmaxwell: what were people actually using sss for? 14:54 < gmaxwell> well all scrypt has a effective (in ternms of area*time) time memory tradeoffs; but the litecoin parameters are especially bad (probably not by chance-- considering this was pointed out immediately to the person who came up with them) 14:54 < ryan-c> I used it at a previous job to protect the private key for the internal CA 14:54 < gmaxwell> ryan-c: using to protect bitcoin private keys (instead of multisig) 14:55 < ryan-c> gmaxwell: multisig is pretty much a strictly better solution than SSS for bitcoin keys. 14:55 < ryan-c> it's always better if possible 14:55 < ryan-c> i think 14:55 < TD-Linux> yeah, the litecoin ones can fit inside of a modern texture cache 14:55 < gmaxwell> ryan-c: in your kind of case it perhaps better than _nothing_ but .. right strictly inferior to multisig. 14:55 < gmaxwell> (well better than nothing assuming a certant reasonable threat topology.) 14:56 -!- GGuyZ [~GGuyZ@216-15-123-91.c3-0.sbo-ubr1.sbo.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:56 < gmaxwell> ryan-c: amusingly RSA can be securely thresholded without a heroic effort. No one bothers. :( 14:56 < ryan-c> gmaxwell: my use case for sss is so that if i die suddenly it will be possible to decrypt my disks and publish anything interesting and non-sensitive 14:57 < gmaxwell> yea, not saying its not useful. Just saying that.. in bitcoin I'm glad to not see more of it, since it's almost always used in lieu of multisig, or where the threat model really is the single person or device that would see the combined data. 14:57 < ryan-c> gmaxwell: I am actually aware of the RSA stuff and would be interested getting an implementation written. I don't think I can do it myself, but I'd throw money at it. 14:57 < gmaxwell> Also it's frequently incorrectly implemented. (also strangly people seem to make their own instead of using libgfshare) 14:57 < gmaxwell> ryan-c: I can send you an implementation, do you like java? 14:58 < ryan-c> gmaxwell: Does anyone *like* java? 14:58 < ryan-c> gmaxwell: I can *read* java. :-P 14:58 < gmaxwell> I like other people to use java. 14:58 < fluffypony> yes 14:58 < fluffypony> that one guy that worked at Reddit 14:58 < ryan-c> gmaxwell: rather than c? sure. 14:58 < fluffypony> oh that was JavaScript, nm 14:58 < gmaxwell> Java is a fantastic language if you have an army of medocre programmers. 14:59 < gmaxwell> Not perfect, but it removes many foot guns and methods for writing 'clever code' than no one else can maintain. 14:59 < midnightmagic> +1 14:59 < ryan-c> gmaxwell: We compromised at work on using groovy with static typing enable wherever possible. 14:59 < ryan-c> also, typescript is great 15:00 < gmaxwell> Wumps is the worlds most active typescript programmer according to github. :P 15:00 < ryan-c> gmaxwell: anyway, yes, please send me that java impl. I'll maybe port it to python. 15:01 < ryan-c> gmaxwell: is this the impl from the guy who wrote the paper about it? 15:02 < gmaxwell> yes. 15:02 < ryan-c> gmaxwell: I asked him for it but he didn't respond. :-( 15:03 < gmaxwell> What is your interest in it? 15:04 < ryan-c> gmaxwell: I wanted to see if it'd be feasible to use it to sign DNSSEC zones. 15:05 < gmaxwell> oh interesting. 15:05 -!- chmod755 [~chmod755@unaffiliated/chmod755] has left #bitcoin-wizards ["Ex-Chat"] 15:07 < ryan-c> gmaxwell: It got me interested as a potential way of doing a legacy export of data from a decentralized naming system that had better resistance to data tampering, but it would be useful generally. 15:07 < ryan-c> gmaxwell: also possibly the creation of "meta CAs" 15:08 < ryan-c> gmaxwell: you could have a meta CA composed of CAs in several different countries, for example. 15:14 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:15 -!- Guyver2_ [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: :)] 15:19 < kanzure> export from a decentralized system, not to? 15:21 -!- nwilcox [~nwilcox@99-121-56-190.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:25 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:27 -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:28 -!- user7779_ [~user77790@cpe-158-222-204-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:28 -!- c0rw|away is now known as c0rw1n 15:28 -!- user7779_ [~user77790@cpe-158-222-204-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 15:31 -!- user7779078 [user777907@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-rlttlpagvhakkofr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:32 -!- Dizzle_ [~Dizzle@104-6-36-162.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:34 < ryan-c> kanzure: from 15:39 -!- maaku_ is now known as maaku 15:41 -!- Mably [~Mably@unaffiliated/mably] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 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