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06:43 < kanzure> "Blind signatures for bitcoin transaction anonymity" http://wbl.github.io/bitcoinanon.pdf previously reviewed here: http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2012-March/001311.html and http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2012-March/001330.html
06:44 < kanzure> or http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2012-March/001332.html
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08:04 < kanzure> powpay and probabilistic payments http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2013-May/002564.html
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08:19 < kanzure> "Near-block broadcasts for proof of tx propagation" http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2013-September/003275.html
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08:23 < kanzure> "have miners include their fee expectations into blockheaders or coinbase transactions" http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2013-October/003421.html
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09:09 < kanzure> er, why don't we have various web-of-trust reputation stuff? was there a good reason for not having this yet?
09:13 < jcorgan> can u be more specific?
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09:15 < kanzure> you know, a drop-in reputation library based on web-of-trust consumption
09:16 < jcorgan> i myself am very skeptical of the whole concept; i don't think trust is transitive
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09:50 < amiller> kanzure, i have been thinking about that a lot, its tricky though
09:50 < kanzure> is it missing a good use case? is that why?
09:50 < amiller> i think trust is transitive but not all versions of trust are the same, and any application needs to be precise about them
09:50 < amiller> just to give an example of how crude it is for now... i like showing people the Bitcoin-otc web of trust of one of these working OK in practice
09:51 < amiller> it actually does like aggregation of multihop trust e.g. https://serajewelks.bitcoin-otc.com/trustgraph.php?source=amiller&dest=nanotube
09:51 < amiller> ok but the meaning of the edges, represented by a number 1-10, is pretty hard to understand and unlikely to be unifrom
09:52 < null_radix> so its basically like the trustDavis scheme?
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09:52 < amiller> ah trustDavis is fascinating and is a bunch more complicated!
09:52 < amiller> they have some similar underlying principles like representing trust as edges on a graph and getting an 'inference' as some flow computation on it
09:53 < null_radix> ah right
09:53 < amiller> okay so if you look at the guide for bitcoin otc it has some fuzzy descritions, like you sohuld give someone a 1 if you have one good trade, and 10 if they are your mother or osmething
09:53 < amiller> obviously people differ in how they decide things like that
09:53 < amiller> nanotube was working on a more detailed description
09:53 < amiller> that was quantified
09:53 < amiller> like how much % of national gdp wouldyou trust them with
09:54 < amiller> but still there's a big diference between possible meanings there, like trust them to repay it on demand? trust htme to repay it eventually but they may take their time? trust them to never repay it, but invest it wisely for themselves?
09:54 < null_radix> nanotube?
09:54 < kanzure> nanotube the bitcoin-otc and lesswrong person
09:55 < null_radix> ok; google is showing lots of stuff on carbon nanatubes :P
09:58 < kanzure> amiller: i have no good answers for that. there's an ontology problem and also a grounding problem there...
09:58 < amiller> so, you don't need to assign a meaning like that if there is some consequence
10:00 < kanzure> iirc the reason i brought it up today was for some reason like "what about a storage network where people can volunteer their storage, automatically sign up to be part of the collective (no proof-of-storage involved), and their ability to join is judged based on reputation regarding their other reputational decisions in other similar networks that they have joined and provided services to".
10:01 < kanzure> and there's probably payment-related reasons i guess.. but a lot of payment stuff can be done without web-of-trust so there's much less motivation from that.
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10:18 < kang_> From yesterday, "gmaxwell - Information must be transfered at _some time_, but not with the block." in response to "If actual block propagation requires 0 or almost 0 information xfer, why it there any need to limit the notional size of the block at all?".  So how is correctness of an SPV proof verified?
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10:21 < jcorgan> kanzure: my skepticism about web-of-trust models is that, while I might judge you completely trustworthy for X, i might also think you are clueless about how much you trust others about X.  so a strong edge from me to you and a strong edge from you to someone else does not mean i trust that other person in the slightest.
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10:25 < kanzure> jcorgan: sure; i wouldn't be able to trust my own previous trust lines anyway because who knows what prior scheme i was using or whether i was accurately running that scheme at all? etc.
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10:28 < jcorgan> a more accurate distillation of "reputation" might be, "how much do people i think are good judges of character rate this person"
10:29 < jcorgan> and that web is only 1 deep
10:30 < jcorgan> and even then it becomes only a sort of bayesian prior to set initial expectations
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10:52 < amiller> jcorgan, kanzure, i think that a reputation system should have some transaction output, not just informatio
10:52 < amiller> that way it may be possible to make an incentive argument that shows accurate trust reporting is incenitve compatible
10:52 < amiller> that is a key principle of trustdavis
10:53 < amiller> when you tell the system you trust someone, you are actually putting up some money as insurance collateral for them
10:53 < amiller> if you trust the wrong people, you can lose the colatearl
10:53 < kanzure> how do you lose the collateral exactly?
10:53 < kanzure> a bunch of people collude to take it...?
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10:55 < jcorgan> it seems a little hand-wavey but i agree that opinions become more believable when something is at stake
10:55 < jcorgan> it still wouldn't address the non-transivity of that opinion
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11:57 < kanzure> review of SIGHASH_ sighash type proposals http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-August/010759.html
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13:01 < polyclef> web of trust is particularly prone to poisoning via the Dunning Kruger effect. non expert users don't know enough to rate others properly
13:02 < polyclef> and expert users might reasonably trust no one
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13:28 < polyclef> possible test data: look at who lost money in gox and see what percentage have high trust ratings from others.. not perfect, because for most there's a difference in risk tolerance with ones own money vs what they might recommend to others, but it is likely instructive
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13:30 < nanotube> kanzure: jcorgan indeed, there are many 'types' of trust. my latest thought about that (a little stale by now) are http://privwiki.dreamhosters.com/wiki/Distributed_Web_of_Trust_Proposal_2
13:31 < nanotube> so you could trust someone a lot for say, food/movie recommendations, but not much for financial transactions. you can trust someone a lot personally, but not give credence to their assignments of trust to others, etc.
13:32 < nanotube> one problem with any public trust network like that though, is the likely complete loss of anonymity. a person can be pretty well specified by the people they trust and are trusted by.
13:32 < kanzure> yes yes but then you get into ontology sync issues like "the other person calls food something entirely different"
13:32 < kanzure> "oops your word for high-security-thing is what i consider to be low-security-thing" and other catastrophes
13:32 < nanotube> at which point you don't trust them for food. :)
13:34 < kanzure> re: storage service providers, web-of-trust seems like a possibly okay way to subscribe providers for a large-scale distributed storage service, where you use web-of-trust instead of formal review for the introduction of random participants with random hardware.
13:34 < nanotube> nothing is going to be perfect. the point is to just provide some more useful decision-support info. presumably some useful information can be derived if say, 10 of my friends trust $guy for $100, then probably i'm safe to transact with $guy up to $100.
13:35 < Taek> "nothing is going to be perfect" -> but you do need to make sure that it's not highly exploitable in some way
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13:35 < nanotube> true enough
13:36 < kanzure> re: trusting people with specific amounts, there's a bit of a gap that i wouldn't trust some people with, but the person who i would trust $10 with and not $10k with might be someone i trust $1B with :-)
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13:37 < nanotube> kanzure: haha well if you have highly unusual utility functions, you should make that known on your profile when you assign such trust, then. :)
13:37 < kanzure> nanotube: one way to solve the ontology/tagging/word meaning problem is something like this: whoever introduces a new term has to also be the "central authority" by which that term will be evaluated. you can do some centralization tricks with web-of-trust like this, i think.
13:37 < nanotube> could you give me an example of something like that?
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13:37 < nanotube> (the non-linear monetary trust thing, that is)
13:38 < kanzure> well it's just context stuff, it's not a raw discontinuous utility function on its own?
13:39 < kanzure> it's not good to assume that a utility function is going to be smooth as you keep adding dimensions (other context)
13:39 < kanzure> i don't even know what a smooth 8-curve looks like
13:39 < nanotube> i just mean if you trust someone for $X, but wouldn't trust them for $X-positivenumber, it seems ... unusual and requires description. :)
13:41 < nanotube> i keep thinking of things in terms of monetary values, because that's what otc is about. certainly some higher-dimensional things like food flavors or movies are not ordinal like that
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13:46 < polyclef> instead of an identity heavy approach, something that uses anonymized past transactions might be better.  after a successful transaction, sign an pseudonymized token that indicates rating and tx size.  sibyll attacks are possible with a trivial version, but I think this has less issues than an identity focused approach.  so instead of saying 10 of my friends trust X for up to $100, instead use 10
13:46 < polyclef> people I know have all done transactions that they didn't have cause to complain about with range 10-200, avg 145
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14:45 < nanotube> polyclef: how would you avoid identifiability of individuals who participated in transactions?
14:45 < nanotube> some kind of ring signatures scheme?
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16:31 < MRL-Relay> [tacotime] yeah, that works fine (ring signature with key image)
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20:10 < polyclef> ring signatures are solid, there might be an interesting way to apply brands scheme for dealing with double spending by identity revelation to discourage sibylls, but I'd defer to someone else (adam3us?) for specifics
20:10 < polyclef> s/apply brands/apply something like brands/
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--- Log closed Mon Aug 31 00:00:56 2015