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07:47 < Taek> gmaxwell: If creating a payment channel on the lightning network ends up being a significant expense, I think we will see heavy centralization of nodes on the live network. The most efficient construction (in terms of # of channels) is to have a single central node with a single 2 way channel to each spoke.
07:47 < Taek> while that's a terrible setup for security, the trend has generally been to trust services that appear reliable (like bc.i)
07:51 < nsh> .wik Naturalistic fallacy
07:51 < yoleaux> "In philosophical ethics, the term "naturalistic fallacy" was introduced by British philosopher G. E. Moore in his 1903 book Principia Ethica. Moore argues it would be fallacious to explain that which is good reductively in terms of natural properties such as "pleasant" or "desirable"." — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalistic_fallacy
07:51 < GreenIsMyPepper> it's difficult to be too centralized, since a hub and spoke structure would require a lot of money
07:51 < nsh> because people tend to trust centralised services based on superficial assessments of reliability
07:51 < nsh> that doesn't mean it is something to be favoured
07:51 < GreenIsMyPepper> if the "hub" in a hub-and-spoke construction isn't contributing any money, money can't move since everyone's balance is maxed out
07:53 < GreenIsMyPepper> but yeah some aspects are unresolved when it comes to the final composition, but i'm pushing for more decentralization in design?
07:53 < Taek> GreenIsMyPepper: presumably the hub would be extracting fees, which would pay for the money that the hub has to lock down. As long as the fees are lower than the cost of creating more channels, it is economically preferred
07:53 < GreenIsMyPepper> i think it'll bias towards effectively free, yeah, but I'm speculating here..
07:53 < GreenIsMyPepper> but yeah i agree that it's definitely a risk to consider
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08:12 < rusty> Taek: will be trying to push back with the reference implementation, but yes, is worrying.
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08:20 < kanzure> Taek: there's a way to create new commitments without .. er. well, read the logs.
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11:08 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/scalingbitcoin/snarks/
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12:00 < nsh> ty
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12:07 < kanzure> snarks discussion should go on bitcoin.ninja after fleshing out a bit more
12:07 < kanzure> although might be too low signal
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13:16 < chris13243> hi does anyone know of an open source implementation of bip38 confirm code verify?
13:18 < nubbins`> try https://github.com/bitcoinjs/bip38
13:20 < chris13243> ah thanks
13:20 < chris13243> apparently casascius's doesn't do verify...
13:21 < chris13243> or t least i couldnt find the code for it
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13:32 < nubbins`> g
13:32 < nubbins`> i mean gl
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14:02 < waxwing> why doesn't rusty russell write in rust?
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14:05 < fluffypony> hah hah
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14:35 < Taek> There was discussion about adding tags to conversations in this channel
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14:36 < Taek> Some bot command that would enable people to search for specific topics like 'lightning'
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14:51 < kanzure> Taek: i was thinking more like ".botlogger, plz tag last few lines with the following tags: x y z"
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14:59 < kang_> This conf really reminded time and again that "we are doomed". No dearth of "requirements gathered"
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15:05 < kang_> Hi, can anyone link me to that elements LN implementation in work, specifically channels?
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15:07 < nsh> guess which cryptographical concept is going to save everyone from themselves and make software infallible and computer systems perfectly secure?
15:07 < nsh> difficulty level: wired magazine
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15:12 < fluffypony> nsh: Ethereum?
15:12 < fluffypony> oh, concept, nm
15:13 < nsh> more realistic than ethereum
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15:13 < nsh> less imminent than fusion power, probably
15:14 < nsh> .title http://www.wired.com/2015/09/new-design-cryptographys-black-box/
15:14 < yoleaux> Near-Perfect Computer Security May Be Surprisingly Close | WIRED
15:15 < nsh> (the research is >> article >> headline)
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16:22 < bsm117532> How was Scaling Bitcoins?  Any great revelations?
16:23 < bsm117532> Everyone is probably traveling home right now ;-)
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16:36 < harding> One of the things reportedly discussed at the conference was summarizing old -wizards logs.  I'm willing to start working on that, posting results to the Wiki.  Does anyone have suggestions for how to format it?  E.g., should each page be a particular week with tags to the discussed topics, or should each page be a topic with tags to particular dates and participants, or something else?
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16:41 < jgarzik> harding, coordinate with kanzure, who collected some stuff already
16:41 < jgarzik> harding, probably best organized by topic then date?
16:45 < Starduster> http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/scalingbitcoin/  (c) kanzure
16:46 < harding> jgarzik: yes, I was thinking that myself.
16:49 < kanzure> harding: -wizards logs could be hyperlinks + tagged using something like https://github.com/davidlazar/jotmuch
16:49 < kanzure> harding: here is my jotmuch output (there is a way to import this data into your own local jotmuch database, but it is not this file; you'd have to ask first and i can whip something up) http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/bitcoin/bitcoin-selected-bookmarks.2015-09-09.txt
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16:50 < kanzure> harding: these links were assembled from reading most of bitcointalk.org technical subforum, and all bitcoin-dev emails
16:50 < kanzure> tags are a useful first step but dunno what step two is
16:53 < jgarzik> ideally people should be able to browse ideas
16:53 < jgarzik> so I would sort ideas into piles
16:53 < jgarzik> the people behind the ideas are less important
16:54 < harding> jgarzik: I only suggested tagging people because that's part of how I remember things: "jgarzik was talking about X a few weeks ago, so grep -r jgarzik.*X irclogs/"
16:54 < kanzure> jgarzik: what type of piles?
16:55 < harding> kanzure: looking at jotmuch now; having those bookmarks will be handy.
16:55 < kanzure> harding: have you seen my meetlog project thingy? i tag everyone with what we talk about. it's a 5 MB yaml file on my computer...
16:55 < kanzure> going back to ~2009
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16:56 < harding> kanzure: no, I don't think I'd ever visited your site for anything besides the archived papers until a few days ago.
16:57 < harding> I assume it would be nice to have a wiki page for each subject that summarizes thinking and references the particular discussions.  That would seem to be step two.
16:58 < kanzure> harding: one of the thoughts today was "it is easier to hire technical writers than it is developers" so i said we can just poach all your buddies, hope that's okay
17:00 < harding> kanzure: well, sure, because there's so few technical writers working on free software, you pretty much have to either poach from another business or inhouse train junior devs to be technical writers.
17:03 < kanzure> oh.
17:04 < kanzure> that is not good news
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18:54 < kanzure> whoops just realized s/Skipper lab/SCIPR lab/
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19:29 < kanzure> https://github.com/rescrv/libmacaroons
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20:01 < Taek> sorting things into piles would be good, with prereqs (for newbies)
20:01 < Taek> Have a top level page listing all the piles
20:02 < Taek> And then piles would be like "payment channels", " snarks", etc.
20:02 < Taek> And, if necessary, you could include prereqs. For example you might have 'payment channels' as a prereq to 'lightning'.
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20:03 < Taek> And pile that gets too big could be split into more piles
20:03 < Taek> I'm willing to do some work on this once we've established a repo or something
20:03 < kanzure> "sharding", even
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20:20 < kanzure> 14:59 <@jbenet> ogd: yeah, same here. btw, if you want just a straight merkle-tar, we put one into ipfs recently to merkelize docker images
20:20 < kanzure> heh
20:27 < jbenet> kanzure: ?
20:27 < kanzure> jbenet: "merklize all the things" is a trope by now
20:28 < jbenet> it's been for -- i think -- 15-20 years now?
20:28 < kanzure> correct
20:28 < kanzure> see page 15 and stuff after page 44 http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/bitcoin/scalingbitcoin-review.pdf
20:29 < jbenet> thanks looks interesting. readingHeap.add(_)
20:30 < kanzure> jbenet: you may also be interested in http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/scalingbitcoin/snarks/ or other things here http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/scalingbitcoin/ (hot off the press)
20:31 < jbenet> by the way, i think people in here would -- in general -- very much like what we're up to with IPFS. but i think it would be like "the web people" trying to tell "the hypertext people" about hypertext so i'm not particularly vocal here.
20:31 < kanzure> well there's definitely concerns about the statements that filecoin has made in the past
20:33 < kanzure> .... none of which i presently remember.
20:33 < jbenet> **shrug** i'm happy to discuss it at length, but it requires a semantic alignment, which is close to impossible in an irc channel with 100+ people.
20:35 < kanzure> (although i think a multiparty computation storage system might work if you throw away a blockchain; but i also happen to think that a less secure file storage solution- with legal contracts- would be a step up from the current situation anyway)
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20:36 < kanzure> 20:37 < petertodd> I *really* wish maidsafe/storj would just scale down their goals to something we know can actually be achieved, like a simple pay-for-data by hash network that doesn't make unrealistic promises
20:37 < kanzure> heh
20:37 < Taek> that's more or less what Sia is attempting to do
20:43 < jbenet> hey Taek! catch up soon! am in NYC for some time now.
20:45 < gwillen> jbenet: I'm pretty excited about ipfs, but you have seen me in your channe, so :-)
20:45 < gwillen> channel*
20:45 < jbenet> gwillen indeed :)
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20:46 < jbenet> kanzure: i think that incentivized storage is much less important than a merkleized transport for the entire web, web of sites and web of data both.
20:46 < jbenet> which is why we're working on things in this order.
20:47 < kanzure> who sets the "entire web" merkle root..?
20:48 -!- c0rw1n is now known as c0rw|zZz
20:48 < jbenet> the hack is a virtual root. i dont think one root makes sense for an information system meant to span planets.
20:49 < kanzure> or was this just the "each node includes some random other data, that they had previously pinned, in a random merkle root"
20:49 < jbenet> (i.e. in this one case, i side with "git merge master" and not "git rebase master" as i usually would)
20:49 < kanzure> about the planetary thing, blockchains are not good with interstellar latency unless you have extremely high block delays for multiple rounds of point-point communication and computation between the participants
20:49 < kanzure> (yes i know ipfs does not use a chain anything)
20:50 < jbenet> o/ merge. not rebase.
20:50 < kanzure> (git rebase is almost definitively evil)
20:50 < jbenet> no, it's extremely useful in branched dev, just people are afraid of git
20:51 < kanzure> all development is branched, just some of the branch names conflict in the same namespace because people are bad at names; rebase is only non-evil if you are rebasing a branch that nobody has ever seen.
20:52 < kanzure> if you rebase a branch that somebody has seen, you are shifting the ground form under their feet and it's somewhat rude
20:53 < kanzure> *from
20:53 < kanzure> anyway: still interested in the "include other random merkle branches in the tree for the virtual merkle root" question.
20:55 < jbenet> (it's ok in practice with a team of people who are comfortable with rebase. it's really very useful. try it out with a team some day. not much to lose).  re the other question, i dont think i follow you.
20:57 < kanzure> if you pin locally but never transfer hashes then it's useless right?
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--- Log closed Mon Sep 14 00:00:10 2015