--- Log opened Mon Oct 19 00:00:01 2015 00:00 < katu> andytoshi: have you seen this one? http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/One-out-of-many%20proofs:%20or%20how%20to%20leak%20a%20secret%20and%20spend%20a%20coin.pdf 00:01 < katu> mostly zerocoin, but apparently no RSA, log N sig sizes. still nested pedersen with that nasty cut-and-choose though 00:07 -!- bendavenport [~bpd@c-50-131-42-132.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bendavenport] 00:07 -!- mjerr [~mjerr@p5B209E67.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:17 -!- davec [~davec@cpe-24-243-251-52.hot.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:26 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:26 -!- orik [~orik@50-46-139-225.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 00:31 -!- matsjj [~matsjj@p5B209E67.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:43 -!- nivah [~linker@14.162.8.0] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:43 -!- CoinMuncher [~jannes@178.132.211.90] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:47 < gmaxwell> katu: it has unfriendly constant factors for small ring usage, and it's O(N) computation to verify-- limiting its use for larger rings; iirc. 00:59 < katu> gmaxwell: :( i see why zerocoin guys ditched this approach in favor of snarks. 01:00 < gmaxwell> I don't know that the zerocoin people ever looked at this. 01:02 -!- paveljanik [~paveljani@unaffiliated/paveljanik] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:06 -!- paci_ [~paci@host41-233-static.58-79-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:18 -!- maraoz [~maraoz@2601:647:4a00:6cf9:e1cc:4507:95f6:803a] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:18 -!- blackwraith [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:23 -!- blackwraith 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10:33 -!- paveljanik [~paveljani@79-98-72-216.sys-data.com] has quit [Changing host] 10:33 -!- paveljanik [~paveljani@unaffiliated/paveljanik] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:38 -!- King_Rex [~King_Rex@unaffiliated/king-rex/x-3258444] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:39 < bsm1175321> Well isn't that just horrifying? 10:40 -!- TheSeven [~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:40 -!- TheSeven [~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:42 -!- DeesWizard [~IceChat9@118.211.64.167] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:43 < katu> kanzure: old news 10:44 < katu> it would be cooler if somebody just dumped torrents with precomputed NFS tables for some 512bit prime 10:44 < bsm1175321> How large would they be? 10:45 < katu> apparently just orders of terabytes 10:45 < kanzure> yes logjam is old news 10:46 -!- priidu [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:46 < kanzure> but my intention wasn't to communicate news :-) 10:46 < katu> :) 10:47 -!- CoinMuncher [~jannes@178.132.211.90] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:48 < katu> kanzure: i still can't wrap my head around how EC is fundamentally different in this regard, the way i see it its just TMTO, not really fancy math 10:48 -!- zooko [~user@50.141.103.9] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:48 -!- xabbix [~xabbix@unaffiliated/xabbix] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:48 < gmaxwell> katu: why would you think EC was fundimentally different? 10:49 < gmaxwell> it isn't. The same precomputation works, it's just that people are not using such insecure groups with ECC. 10:49 < katu> gmaxwell: they claim TMTO is somehow more difficult for ec 10:49 < gmaxwell> Well they have a particularly efficient TMTO that indeed doesn't work for ecc, but I think thats not very important. 10:50 < katu> as for "insecure", what do you mean? low group order relative to prime bit size? 10:52 -!- xabbix [~xabbix@unaffiliated/xabbix] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:52 < gmaxwell> katu: just one where, given known techniques, a single discrete log attack is cheap enough to actually perform. 10:53 -!- justanot1eruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:53 -!- Guest17159 is now known as maaku 10:54 -!- zwischenzug [~zwischenz@68.87.42.115] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:55 < katu> gmaxwell: i presume you're referring to that NFS as a whole isnt really applicable to EC 10:56 < katu> ie one gains nothing making tables of B-smooth relations 10:56 < gmaxwell> right, well, not for well chosen ec groups. 10:56 < katu> agreed, sampling anchor points for pollard rho is definitely less elegant 10:56 < gmaxwell> There are NFS like techniques that work for certian special EC groups. 10:58 < gmaxwell> (Including apparently all characteristic 2 groups; though it's not clear if the constant factors actually make it faster than simplistic methods) 10:59 < katu> yeah, intuitively GF(2) seems like good candidate for algebraic shortcuts 11:00 -!- roxtrongo [~roxtrongo@191.113.16.182] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:00 < DeesWizard> hello wizards! 11:00 < DeesWizard> hello wizards! 11:00 -!- mode/#bitcoin-wizards [+o gmaxwell] by ChanServ 11:00 -!- DeesWizard was kicked from #bitcoin-wizards by gmaxwell [goodbye muggle] 11:00 <@gmaxwell> (he's been doing this for days) 11:00 -!- mode/#bitcoin-wizards [-o gmaxwell] by gmaxwell 11:01 -!- esneider [~esneider@181.29.97.100] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 11:01 -!- zooko [~user@50.141.103.9] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:01 -!- zwischenzug2 [~zwischenz@68.87.42.115] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:02 < fluffypony> man that was getting annoying, thanks gmaxwell 11:03 -!- justanot1eruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 11:05 -!- zwischenzug [~zwischenz@68.87.42.115] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:06 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:07 -!- davispuh [~quassel@85.254.75.159] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:08 -!- esneider [~esneider@181.29.97.100] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:08 -!- publius1788 [~publius17@104.200.154.10] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:09 -!- DeesWizard [~IceChat9@118.211.64.167] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:09 < DeesWizard> lolol 11:09 -!- zwischenzug3 [~zwischenz@68.87.42.115] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:10 -!- zwischenzug2 [~zwischenz@68.87.42.115] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 11:11 -!- publius1888 [~publius17@c-98-248-39-153.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:13 -!- davec [~davec@cpe-24-243-251-52.hot.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:13 -!- bramc [~bram@99-75-88-206.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:16 -!- zwischenzug3 [~zwischenz@68.87.42.115] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:20 -!- mode/#bitcoin-wizards [+o gmaxwell] by ChanServ 11:21 -!- nwilcox [~nwilcox@104-152-230-86.static-ip.telepacific.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:21 -!- mode/#bitcoin-wizards [+b *!*@118.211.64.167] by gmaxwell 11:21 -!- DeesWizard was kicked from #bitcoin-wizards by gmaxwell [beatings will continue until morale improves] 11:21 -!- mode/#bitcoin-wizards [-o gmaxwell] by gmaxwell 11:26 -!- Myagui [Myagui@shell.xshellz.com] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 11:26 -!- mjerr [~mjerr@p5B209E67.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:26 -!- matsjj [~matsjj@p5B209E67.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:26 -!- Myagui [Myagui@shell.xshellz.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:28 -!- davec [~davec@cpe-24-243-251-52.hot.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:29 -!- maaku [~quassel@botbot.xen.prgmr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:30 -!- maaku [~quassel@botbot.xen.prgmr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:30 -!- maaku is now known as Guest13301 11:31 -!- Guest13301 is now known as maaku 11:32 -!- orik [~orik@50-46-139-225.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:36 -!- zwick [~zwick@fsf/member/zwick] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.3] 11:40 -!- esneider [~esneider@181.29.97.100] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:40 -!- zooko [~user@74-93-190-126-Oregon.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:43 -!- ratbanebo [~ratbanebo@2a02:1812:1515:2400:3d6d:ecaf:76c2:d048] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:43 -!- LeMiner [LeMiner@unaffiliated/leminer] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:45 -!- erasmospunk [~erasmospu@151.68.73.234] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:45 -!- erasmosp_ [~erasmospu@179.43.156.194] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:46 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:47 -!- LeMiner [LeMiner@unaffiliated/leminer] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:47 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has left #bitcoin-wizards [] 11:48 -!- zooko [~user@74-93-190-126-Oregon.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:48 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:49 -!- esneider [~esneider@181.29.97.100] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:49 -!- erasmospunk [~erasmospu@151.68.73.234] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:51 -!- orik [~orik@50-46-139-225.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…] 13:05 -!- bsm1175321 [~bsm117532@38.121.165.30] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:08 -!- moa [~kiwigb@opentransactions/dev/moa] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:12 -!- damethos [~damethos@unaffiliated/damethos] has quit [Quit: Bye] 13:14 -!- Jeremy_Rand [~jeremy@172.56.6.177] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:26 -!- esneider [~esneider@181.29.97.100] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:29 -!- esneider_ [~esneider@181.29.97.100] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:31 -!- nwilcox [~nwilcox@c-107-3-189-85.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:49 -!- paveljanik [~paveljani@unaffiliated/paveljanik] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:51 < bramc> My post on how wallets can handle transaction fees seems to have not generated any controversy at all, which I guess was my goal. 13:53 -!- matsjj [~matsjj@p5B209E67.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:53 -!- mjerr [~mjerr@p5B209E67.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:57 -!- nwilcox [~nwilcox@c-73-202-109-21.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:03 -!- Emcy_ [~MC@cpc3-swan1-0-0-cust996.7-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:03 -!- Emcy_ [~MC@cpc3-swan1-0-0-cust996.7-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Changing host] 14:03 -!- Emcy_ [~MC@unaffiliated/mc1984] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:03 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: :)] 14:06 -!- Emcy [~MC@unaffiliated/mc1984] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:07 -!- midnightmagic [~midnightm@unaffiliated/midnightmagic] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:12 -!- midnightmagic [~midnightm@unaffiliated/midnightmagic] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:17 -!- zooko [~user@c-71-237-168-169.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:18 < morcos> bramc: I still havent read it yet! :) 14:19 -!- Jeremy_Rand [~jeremy@172.56.6.177] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:19 < bramc> I can't claim any great originality for the technique I suggest. It's called escalator in the economics literature 14:21 -!- kgk_ [~kgk@173-167-115-138-sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:27 -!- zooko [~user@c-71-237-168-169.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:32 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:35 -!- kgk_ [~kgk@173-167-115-138-sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:40 -!- midnightmagic_ [~midnightm@unaffiliated/midnightmagic] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:42 < kanzure> .wik absolute hot 14:42 < yoleaux> "Absolute hot is a concept of temperature that postulates the existence of a highest attainable temperature of matter. The concept has been popularized by the television series Nova." — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_hot 14:42 < kanzure> looks like physicists took my suggestion for an "absolute hottest wallet" to heart 14:43 -!- midnightmagic [~midnightm@unaffiliated/midnightmagic] has quit [Disconnected by services] 14:44 -!- midnightmagic_ is now known as midnightmagic 14:47 < maaku> Not so much a limit as "if things get this hot, we don't have a clue what happens" 14:48 < bsm1175321> Yeah there is no absolute hot if gravity is asymptotically safe. But I digress... 14:53 -!- matsjj [~matsjj@p5B209E67.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:54 < gwillen> bsm1175321: my reaction to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asymptotic_safety_in_quantum_gravity is "... I know some of those words" 14:54 < gwillen> (sorry, this is getting offtopic) 14:55 < kanzure> "theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not short-term" sounds on-topic to me 14:58 -!- matsjj [~matsjj@p5B209E67.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 14:59 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:01 < bramc> There's an analogous concept of the loudest possible sound https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-loudest-sound-on-earth 15:01 < katu> bramc: i'd not dismiss mempool as easily. there are definitely hot and cold usage time spots. as for being prone to spoofing, i mean using it only as lower bound. 15:03 < kanzure> bramc: originally "hottest possible wallet" was theorized because i wondered what possible physical limit there could be for those who wish to operate (unsafe) hot wallets 15:03 < katu> (now ignoring low BDD 0-fee spam, but priority in terms of fee per byte, or BDD) 15:03 < kanzure> e.g. sign everything as fast as possible 15:04 < bramc> kanzure, What do you mean by a 'hot' wallet? 15:05 < bramc> katu, In principle the stuff in mempool is potentially useful, but I find it dicey and the onus is on whoever wants to use that info to come up with algorithms and justify them. 15:05 < kanzure> sign-immediately, connected to the interwebs; joke started when the bitstamp vulnerability was exploited. 15:06 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:07 < katu> bramc: however thats only from perspective of lone, opportunistic clients. if every wallet overzealously paced fees like this, it could paradoxically introduce flashcrowds where everyone has fee too low. 15:08 < katu> reminds me of stupid torrent clients in swarm all fetching same piece, because it is rarest at that exact moment, and next moment it's the exact opposite. 15:09 -!- Dizzle [~Dizzle@104-6-36-162.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 15:11 < bramc> katu, Huh? If every wallet uses the algorithms I said prices will be very smoothed out with hardly any spikes at all 15:11 < bramc> katu, When peers use rarest first it tends to result in a lot of pieces being tied for rarest, so that doesn't happen much either :-P 15:11 < katu> bramc: yeah, i'm talking about hawking mempool for low usage. 15:12 < bramc> Not sure what you mean by 'hawking'. It might be possible to, for example, realize that the price is about to dip because mempool is clearing out. 15:12 -!- esneider_ [~esneider@181.29.97.100] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:13 < katu> its not much about price, but evaluating priority slots of txes already in mempool 15:13 < katu> you either fit the model or not 15:13 < bramc> But if all wallets follow my advice the noise on mempool size will also be cut down dramatically, and even when it looks like it's getting low there are plenty of other transactions which will get propagated as soon as things get a bit more cleared out. 15:13 < bramc> Not sure what you just said 15:13 < katu> it should be possible to pretty much guarantee to be in next transaction just by modeling mempool tbh 15:13 < katu> *next block 15:14 < katu> bramc: there is assumption that you pretty much see the same mempool as miners in the best case. 15:14 < katu> in the worst case, miners could try to foil it. 15:14 < katu> you automatically account for the worst case. 15:15 < bramc> That might be important if you really really want to be in the very next block 15:15 < katu> well, its still statistics 15:15 < katu> you cant model it exactly 15:15 < katu> because you cant replace transaction once you decide on inputs and fee 15:16 < katu> other txes might jump ahead the line with better offer 15:16 < bramc> I'm assuming replace by fee. Nothing in my article makes sense without replace by fee. 15:16 < katu> other = later 15:16 < katu> oh 15:16 -!- esneider [~esneider@181.29.97.100] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:16 < bramc> It says that up at the top 15:17 < katu> http://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg07829.html 15:17 < katu> last i remember people were vocally opposed to it 15:18 < bramc> I'm vocally in favor of it :-P 15:18 < katu> well, with this in place 15:18 < katu> its possible to make fee schedule exactly deterministic 15:18 < katu> whough the network chatter could be stormy as clients try to outbid each other :) 15:19 -!- melvster [~melvster@ip-86-49-18-198.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:20 < nsh> And what rough beast, its hour come round at last / Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born? 15:26 -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:27 -!- melvster [~melvster@ip-86-49-18-198.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:28 -!- esneider [~esneider@181.29.97.100] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:31 < bramc> katu, You should read my post, it's silly for me to rehash all of it in here https://medium.com/@bramcohen/how-wallets-can-handle-transaction-fees-ff5d020d14fb 15:31 < bramc> Although I'm of course happy to explain and discuss 15:31 -!- esneider_ [~esneider@181.29.97.100] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:32 < bramc> amiller, I sent you mail covering just what the high level attacks are and some basic thoughts on them. It still wound up being the length of a freaking blog post. 15:32 -!- ratbanebo [~ratbanebo@2a02:1812:1515:2400:3d6d:ecaf:76c2:d048] has quit [] 15:32 < amiller> reading now 15:33 < katu> bramc: sorry, just did ^f formula :) 15:34 < bramc> katu, Not sure what you mean 15:38 -!- bsm1175321 [~bsm117532@38.121.165.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 15:39 < katu> bramc: i stand behind my words, though :( the only people to bother with fees are those paying per kb (ie huge txes). exponential backoff makes little sense, as you could as easily miss window of opportunity when your slot is cheap. 15:39 -!- erasmosp_ [~erasmospu@179.43.156.194] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:39 < gwillen> bramc: when you talk about miners including self-transactions to artifically fill their blocks with high fees -- doesn't it probably make more sense for them to just mine smaller blocks? 15:39 < bramc> katu, The assumption is that transaction fees will become substantial, as outlined in the other articles I linked to 15:40 < bramc> gwillen, Yeah but that isn't as sneaky. 15:40 < gwillen> in other words, if the lowest fee in a block is X, rather than me mining a self-spend with fee X also, why not just stop the block there? 15:40 * gwillen nod 15:40 < gwillen> if people are reasoning about marginal fees, it doesn't seem like it should make any difference in the end 15:40 < gwillen> and it sort of points out one reason miners might not do this, which is that it's going to squeeze out real fees 15:41 < gwillen> which they otherwise could have mined 15:41 < bramc> It's harder for people to detect that fees were temporarily raised by a rogue miner if it's padded, which makes fees likely to stay higher longer with the more naive fee setting mechanisms 15:42 < katu> bramc: in which case the game becomes highly competetive and will resemble well informed auction. 15:42 < katu> no room for stochastic bid approach :) 15:42 < bramc> katu, An auction in which there's still a reward for patience 15:44 -!- K1773R [~K1773R@unaffiliated/k1773r] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:45 -!- roxtrongo [~roxtrongo@191.113.16.182] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:55 -!- giel__ [~giel____@a149043.upc-a.chello.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:57 -!- gielbier [~giel____@unaffiliated/gielbier] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:58 -!- gielbier [~giel____@a149043.upc-a.chello.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:58 -!- roxtrong_ [~roxtrongo@191.113.16.182] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:01 -!- giel__ [~giel____@a149043.upc-a.chello.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 16:02 -!- roxtrongo [~roxtrongo@191.113.16.182] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:03 -!- kmels [~kmels@184.62.151.186.static.intelnet.net.gt] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:03 -!- orik [~orik@D-173-250-184-131.dhcp4.washington.edu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:08 -!- zooko [~user@c-71-237-168-169.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:10 -!- ASTP001 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