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00:00 < fluffypony> ah, so then they slap on a 1c external temperature probe and use that :-P
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04:02 < Nickyo9> http://bitcoinmagasine.com/#OKCoin-Ceo-bitcoin-to-1200-in-two-months
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04:04 < gmaxwell> phishing link
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06:24  * Eliel I wonder when we'll actually start seeing accountability for companies claiming their device does something like encryption, when it actually merely pretends to do it.
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07:29 < ens> hey anyone here know about abstract state machine modelling?
07:30 < ens> i know that ms research asml is supposed to be the best but i've been looking into xasm for it instead
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09:23 < amiller> is there a way to make multi-hop micropayments that are more 'transactional', so you can make a large trustless payment without having to do lots of very small incremental payments
09:24 <@gmaxwell> amiller: uh? what is a 'payment'?
09:25 <@gmaxwell> (because I think you're using a different definition than I would by default, as otherwise lightning is the answer)
09:25 < amiller> gmaxwell,    for example   A --$50--> hub --$50--> B
09:25 < amiller> uh i mean in the context of lightning
09:25 < amiller> my understanding is the main defense against the hub taking the money is that you only do incremental payments
09:26 <@gmaxwell> amiller: there is a lot of back and forth chatter revising transactions but one or less transaction ends up brocast externally beyond the three parties.
09:26 < amiller> right - i'm interested right now in whats the structure of that back and forth chatter
09:27 < amiller> i think it would be inconvenient if alice gets only part of the way, like A --$50/$50--> hub --$49/$50--> B
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09:28 < amiller> in which case bob doesn't give alice the gold-infused coffee, and maybe B is just supposed to refund A out of band and in either case it's not clear who is to blame, B or the hub
09:29 <@gmaxwell> amiller: in that case, it's no different a question than if A --> B directly.
09:30 <@gmaxwell> a increments the channel towards the hub, hub increments the channel towards b, hub sends alice the towards B update, repeat.  But this is not public communication, it's back and forth with alice and the hub revising a single transaction.  I don't think you should think of the transfer as 'many payments' any more than you do a http request as 'many connections' simply because TCP is sending the d
09:30 <@gmaxwell> ata incrementally with flow control between the parties. :)
09:31 < amiller> tbh i'd probably like to get a signed receipt on my http responses
09:32 < amiller> it also seems harder in a multi-hop setting to learn which link broke down
09:32 < kanzure> do you mean https responses
09:33 < kanzure> have you read the routing emails from lightning-dev?
09:34 < maaku> amiller: lightning payments are not atomic (as database science defines the word), but they don't involve the payer making a bunch of incremental payments either
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09:34 < maaku> amiller: what you describe sounds like hub-and-spoke routing, not lightning
09:35 < maaku> in lightning you do the routing and construct the path backwards getting the first hop to agree that once the payment is made there is no further action on the payer's part
09:39 <@gmaxwell> basically a cross _channel_ atomic swap between the channels, if you will. :)
09:40 < instagibbs> there is also #lightning-dev
09:41 < amiller> thx
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09:55 < amiller> uh hrm... i had assumed that lightning had a hub-and-spoke generalization, where you can reuse some of the links for multiple sender-receiver pairs, now i dont think that's the case anymore
10:00 <@gmaxwell> it doesn't have a hub and spoke orginization (though you could use it that way if you wanted); and the links can be reused, in both directions.
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11:55 < nsh> your lives works are in vain, QCryptanalysis is on the horizon, all ECC is broken, don't even bother implementing it, NSA will save humanity, etc. etc.: https://eprint.iacr.org/2015/1018.pdf
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12:04 <@gmaxwell> oh they don't suggest my personal pet theory behind NSAs actions.
12:05 < jcorgan> that's a pretty good read
12:05 <@gmaxwell> My theory is that they recommended 384 because they do not want people using *25519, which is starting to get some significant traction and formal standarization. ... either because it is insecure in some secret way known to them, or because it isn't.
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12:12 < MRL-Relay> [shen] gmaxwell, I was thinking the same thing after reading some tweets earlier
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12:15 <@gmaxwell> unfortunately its not a useful theory, unless you know how to perform a long straddle trade on cryptosystem selection. :)
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12:23 < MRL-Relay> [shen]  well, I can at least make decisions about which cryptosystems to learn for my personal employment
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12:57 < bramc> The really bizarre thing in the NSA's statement is that they don't advocate using symmetric key techniques for digital signatures which is the thing which actually makes sense to do if you're concerned about unknown possibilities for quantum cryptography. Not doing that tells me that they have a hard-on for fancy math.
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12:59 < jgarzik> pretty much a given - part of the funded mission is to maintain a "technological edge" in mathematics and crypto
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13:02 < petertodd> jgarzik: which can lead to perverse incentives in cases where the older tech with less fancy math is actually the better solution
13:04 < jgarzik> incentivizes things that bring us to the state we're in today - knowledge useful to the defense of the citizenry is likely denied them
13:05 < jgarzik> a focus on weaponizing rather than improving everyone's defenses
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13:05 < petertodd> jgarzik: oh, I mean even in the case where we're talking about the "strenghten america" goal - recommending merkle sigs for instance doesn't look good vs. recommending something fancier
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13:35 <@gmaxwell> bramc: yes, that was a super red flag for me.
13:35 <@gmaxwell> but it might have partly been due to a lack of standardized constructs.
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14:26 < jcorgan> i think the suggestion that it was politically motivated without a lot of internal expert consultation smells about right
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17:04 < bramc> Now I'm wondering when/how triggering of a reorg based on a block being too small should be done
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17:15 < Eliel> So, I'm inclined to make some effort towards writing a privacy focused input selector for a wallet software. Would you happen to have pointers on how to go about it? Is that even possible assuming the user does nothing to help the wallet do it?
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17:17 < kanzure> perhaps start by assuming user is maximally helpful, then back off from there once you have a good implementation for an expert user
17:18 < Eliel> now if I only had an expert user somewhere :)
17:19 < adlai> Eliel: not pointers of what to do, but here's joinmarket's current approach: https://github.com/chris-belcher/joinmarket/wiki/Configuring-with-joinmarket.cfg#input-merging-policy
17:20 < adlai> it lacks any information on how closely "tainted" to eachother the possible inputs are. this information could lead to better choices, since your wallet could already have some correlated inputs which you might as well merge
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17:23 <@gmaxwell> Eliel: well the coinselecter in bitcoin core is arguably 'privacy focused' so long as the user _never_ reuses addresses. :P
17:23 <@gmaxwell> (bad assumption ...)
17:24 < Eliel> :)
17:24 <@gmaxwell> in any case bitcoin core has code that identifies common spending (and makes address gruops).  making the coinselector select address groups and not coins, then try to spend all the coins in the group at once (danger: sane handling of dust floods), would probably be much better than what it does today.
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17:26 <@gmaxwell> related, if there is a lot of change, it could be useful to randomly decide to either split the change in half, or (if the change is more than the output) set one change output to be equal to the payment amount.
17:26 <@gmaxwell> which would keep which txout was the payment more private.
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17:33 < Eliel> I already have some code that creates more change outputs sometimes. It could probably use some randomization though.
17:34 < adlai> if it looks like a coinjoin, and quacks like a coinjoin, it must've been a coinjoin!
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17:36 <@gmaxwell> adlai: funny that.
17:36  * adlai has a whole collection of false positives
17:37 < adlai> by volume, they're a rounding error; but if you just count transactions, joinmarket becomes the rounding error
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17:37 <@gmaxwell> adlai: how do you know they're false positives?
17:39 <@gmaxwell> one of the neatest way of using a CJ is a CJpayment, Where I you want me to pay you, so you have me coinjoin with you where you walk away $amount richer.
17:39 < adlai> no subset sum matches between inputs and outputs, or at least, not in a pattern which is produced by joinmarket... it could be one of the other "coinjoin" implementations
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17:40 < adlai> right, but that requires that the recipient have enough coins to begin with
17:40 <@gmaxwell> have any coins.
17:40 < adlai> if you're rich enough, you can make a fake ten-party coinjoin where the real recipient (who has no coins initially) is just one of the "change" outputs
17:41 <@gmaxwell> e.g. you want me to pay you 4.  you have one, you give me the 1 txin, I provide a 6 txin, and  the tx has 5 out to you and 2 out to me.
17:41 < Eliel> adlai: I suspect that set might contain quite a few transactions that I could find in wallet on one of the servers I admin. No coinjoin's there, but they might seem like coinjoins sometimes.
17:41 < belcher> a problem with fake coinjoins is you must never combine the inputs again
17:41 <@gmaxwell> so then some privacy invader who thinks they can identify coinjoins now incorrectly thinks that you and I are the same party.
17:41 < belcher> err, outputs
17:42 < adlai> is there any writeup/PoC of CJpayment? it sounds like what the Payment Protocol should be doing, instead of checking CA certs...
17:42 <@gmaxwell> belcher: I can imaine that CJs sometimes rejoin, but... even if you don't avoid doing that, having it sometimes work is better than not trying (particularly if the users aren't even aware of this going on)
17:43 < belcher> yes agreed, in the context of this utxo-selecting-for-core
17:43 <@gmaxwell> adlai: I suggested it at some point for payment protocol, but there was zero interest from anyone doing payment protocol stuff, so I didn't spec it out...  PP seems kind of DOA.
17:43 <@gmaxwell> I wish there were a way to measure usage of it, though informally it doesn't seem to get that much.
17:44 < belcher> its a pity, PP is nice
17:44 < belcher> you can actually use PP?!
17:44 < bramc> My conclusion about trying to improve privacy with coin selection algorithms is that everything sucks.
17:44 <@gmaxwell> In core we get no bug reports or feature requests related to it, and I've not heard of small wallets that don't support it being asked to support it.
17:44 <@gmaxwell> nor has anyone asked us for cli/rpc support for it in core.
17:44 <@gmaxwell> AFAIK.
17:45 < Eliel> bramc: well, there's always the difference between crappy and downright awful :P
17:45 <@gmaxwell> There is something to be said for best effort being better than no effort, even if its not that great.
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17:45 < adlai> belcher: most/all coinbase (and bitpay?) payment requests are compatible with PP, but the sending wallet needs to support it. schildbach's wallet does, and i've used it... once
17:46 < belcher> i thought it was only an idea so far
17:46 < belcher> could it be extended to use multisig for consumer protection ?
17:46 < belcher> pubkeys and refund address and so on
17:46 < adlai> iirc it already supports the recipient specifying a distribution rather than a single (address,amount)
17:46 < jcorgan> o.O?
17:47 < bramc> Here's a list of possible strategies: Use oldest coins first. Use newest coins first. Use largest coins first. Use smallest coins first.
17:47 < Luke-Jr> belcher: there is a refund address, but you can't do escrow with it
17:47 < bramc> I can't even tell which of those is better than the others for privacy.
17:47 < Luke-Jr> (the recipient can use multisig, but it's not useful for escrow)
17:47 < Luke-Jr> bramc: I like "use newest coins with sufficient priority"
17:48 < belcher> could the parties agree on pubkeys to derive a multisig address
17:48 < adlai> bramc: using larger coins lets you delay merges, but as you've written in your fee post, you'll pay for / merge the dust eventually one way or another
17:48 < bramc> Luke-Jr, Define 'priority' and 'better'
17:48 < jcorgan> i'd love to see senders and recipients be able to negotiate a transfer of X amount of BTC through multiple TXes so facilitate "never merge up" poliies
17:48 < jcorgan> policies
17:48 < bramc> adlai, Yes my conclusion working on that post was that it matters much less than you'd expect.
17:49 < Luke-Jr> bramc: "priority" is typically defined as "value of each input multiplied by how many blocks confirmed it is, all combined"
17:49 < jcorgan> like paying $10.52 with 2 fives, 2 quarters, and a dime which you happen to have
17:49 < Luke-Jr> (I didn't use the word "better")
17:50  * adlai and belcher have been discussing prioritizing coinjoin counterparties by BDD or "contribution to resulting tx priority", so it matters more than you'd expect :P
17:50 < bramc> Luke-Jr, You answered my question about which is 'best'
17:50 < adlai> the idea being that if you prioritize by priority, an incentive emerges to actually enlarge the anonymity set, rather than just dancing around in more fungible patterns
17:51 < Luke-Jr> bramc: just saying I like it ;)
17:51 < Luke-Jr> "best" is likely to be subjective
17:51 <@gmaxwell> PP has something of a design flaw where the refund address thing is not very useful because there is no strong promise that the payee will get the PP message IF they get the transaction.
17:52 < adlai> enter CT :)
17:52 < jgarzik>  I like the idea of common denominations - makes it much easier to do some privacy stuff like mixing, and assists in making the wallet less fragmentation-prone
17:52 < Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: you mean a non-compliant wallet might broadcast the payment transaction directly, rather than only send it to the merchant over PP?
17:53 < jcorgan> jgarzik: exactly
17:53 <@gmaxwell> adlai: for joinmarket I think you have a problem that many of the joins are likely graph identifyable because the makers are fixed points.. and keep recycling coins join after join.
17:53 <@gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: you're not prohibited from broadcasting directly. :(
17:53 < Luke-Jr> hrm, was that removed? or am I imagining things?
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17:57 < adlai> gmaxwell: yes. belcher's "patientsendpayment" is supposed to alleviate that, by making all market participants act as makers, with some sporadically initiating transactions... i'd also like to see more makers offering "negative fees", which would make the patient algorithm more sensible
17:57 < jcorgan> A: send me X BTC. B: ok, i need 3 addresses. A: ok, here are 3 new addresses. B: here are three TXes that total X BTC for you. A: got them all, confirmed, thanks!
17:57 < Luke-Jr> jcorgan: too many round-trips. remember this may be over QR codes and/or email :/
17:58 <@gmaxwell> adlai: I think it could be improved by makers also offering a coinswap market using the same coins.
17:58 < adlai> doesn't the payment protocol already support providing multiple addresses?
17:58 <@gmaxwell> adlai: it does, dunno if any clients do anything with it.
17:58 < jcorgan> Luke-Jr: true, but i was thinking more of an online negotiation
17:59 < jcorgan> adlai: the sender needs to determine how many addresses it needs from the receiver based on what UTXOs it has to spend
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17:59 < adlai> gmaxwell: https://gist.github.com/adlai/976d308efdb2e886ecb9 (which should probably be turned into a proper joinmarket issue)
17:59 < jcorgan> i think PP just lets receiver blindly spec one or more addresses
18:00 < jcorgan> the overall idea is that there would be a "meta" transaction whose state is tracked by the participants, but it would consist of one or more low-level TXes getting confirmed
18:01 < jcorgan> again the goal would be to allow the sender to choose multiple UTXOs and use multiple TXes to avoid merging any UTXOs in a single TX
18:01 < Luke-Jr> jcorgan: better to coinjoin to a single destination
18:02 < adlai> better = cheaper, both for the counterparties and for the commons; but the counterparties sacrifice privacy.
18:02 < Luke-Jr> not using coinjoins..
18:04 < jcorgan> Luke-Jr: i'm not following you
18:05 < adlai> coinjoin to a single destination suggests a specific amount transacted, although confidential values help. but even then it creates links in the transaction graph, which coinswap avoids
18:05 < adlai> (and jcorgan's suggestion maps directly to using multiple coinswaps)
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19:32 < adlai> recent "false positive" (ie, not joinmarket) coinjoin: http://webbtc.com/tx/382413a3cd0a8be5b7168e7c8e893883d26188aef22f5a586c6e17675f33aaf2
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